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LCDFlight
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Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:22 pm

Re: Updated: LGA Airtrain halted by Governor

Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:38 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
The Subway is simply a better solution. There is not a money problem here. This is a praise-worthy move by New Gov. If FAA regs did not previously support LGA Subway extension, it shows how stupid FAA regs previously were. Start at the right answer and work backwards.

Oh… and locals should get to _compete_ for the various route alternatives. Draw 2 good routes and make the neighborhoods compete for the honor. What they can offer would be, for example, a legal defense commitment funded by property owners who stand to gain.



The latest leg of the subway, the 2nd Ave. line, cost $2.7 billion a mile to build. That opened several years ago.

So assuming 3 miles from Ditmars to LGA…let’s round down…$6 billion dollars.

And a lot of lawsuits.


Tell me how you plan to get this approved and paid for?

STT757…please feel free to chime in here too…as you are a big advocate of this plan


Prosecute and sentence the mafia figures who are inflating costs to such levels. That is a cartoonish figure. The real construction cost would be around $1 billion. Hire a company from Alabama to do it. So you are adding $5 billion in additional mafia bribes on top of that. Even if so, NYS, NYC, PANYNJ, and US government have plenty of money for this. It’s absurd that this even has to be debated. It’s a national priority. People always try to extort money that does not belong to them.
 
FluidFlow
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Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:39 am

Re: Updated: LGA Airtrain halted by Governor

Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:40 pm

Isn't there a possibility to build the train as an "Unterpflasterbahn" (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unterpflasterbahn, sorry only in German) beneath the Grand Central. The good thing is you can do it with the "Deckelbauweise" (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deckelbauweise, again only in German).

This way you have the least disruption and can built something really effective. It is also cheap compared to conventional tunnel building.

In short you pile left, right and center of the highway down into the bedrock or into soil that can support the load of the road. During this the road can be used. Then you rebuild the motorway so it is supported by them pillars. Only during this time the road has to be partially blocked. You first built the westbound than the eastbound. After the "lid" (which is the new road) is done, you can dig out the soil underneath and you have a "tunnel". Now just do the interior construction and lay the rails. Done.
 
MIflyer12
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Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Updated: LGA Airtrain halted by Governor

Wed Oct 06, 2021 5:30 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
Prosecute and sentence the mafia figures who are inflating costs to such levels. That is a cartoonish figure. The real construction cost would be around $1 billion. Hire a company from Alabama to do it. So you are adding $5 billion in additional mafia bribes on top of that. Even if so, NYS, NYC, PANYNJ, and US government have plenty of money for this. It’s absurd that this even has to be debated. It’s a national priority. People always try to extort money that does not belong to them.


The just-opened Seattle Link extension to Northgate was started nine years ago and cost $1.9 Billion for three stations and 4.3 miles. $1 Billion gets you nothing in urban transit construction. And construction companies from Alabama don't know a %%% thing about urban transit construction.
 
bkflyguy
Posts: 249
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:25 pm

Re: Updated: LGA Airtrain halted by Governor

Wed Oct 06, 2021 5:39 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
The Subway is simply a better solution. There is not a money problem here. This is a praise-worthy move by New Gov. If FAA regs did not previously support LGA Subway extension, it shows how stupid FAA regs previously were. Start at the right answer and work backwards.

Oh… and locals should get to _compete_ for the various route alternatives. Draw 2 good routes and make the neighborhoods compete for the honor. What they can offer would be, for example, a legal defense commitment funded by property owners who stand to gain.



The latest leg of the subway, the 2nd Ave. line, cost $2.7 billion a mile to build. That opened several years ago.

So assuming 3 miles from Ditmars to LGA…let’s round down…$6 billion dollars.

And a lot of lawsuits.


Tell me how you plan to get this approved and paid for?

STT757…please feel free to chime in here too…as you are a big advocate of this plan


Prosecute and sentence the mafia figures who are inflating costs to such levels. That is a cartoonish figure. The real construction cost would be around $1 billion. Hire a company from Alabama to do it. So you are adding $5 billion in additional mafia bribes on top of that. Even if so, NYS, NYC, PANYNJ, and US government have plenty of money for this. It’s absurd that this even has to be debated. It’s a national priority. People always try to extort money that does not belong to them.


Is the mafia involved? Yes. Is it the sole reason for large construction costs in NYC? No. Not even remotely. First, look to union work rules in NYC. For tunneling, the rules require several times more workers than required elsewhere. Its not needed. And if you really want a project to not be built, try building it with out-of-state non-union labor. Every construction project in the city would shut down. Another major headache is getting materials delivered--especially in Manhattan. All of the concrete plants are in the outer boroughs. When you mix a batch, the clock is ticking -- it has to be poured within 60-90 minutes (I forget the exact time). Try driving a concrete truck from Queens to Manhattan during the day and you see the problem. And on a big site, you have several trucks lined up to pour into the concrete pump to pump it where it needs to go. God forbid the pump truck breaks, because you just spoiled several trucks worth of concrete. Similarly, the cost of getting steel beams, rails, etc. is ridiculously expensive. And god forbid you have to move an oversized load anywhere in the city. It's a nightmare. The point is that the ridiculous costs have many ingredients. The mafia is one of them, but we've been locking them up for decades and construction costs continue to climb.
 
bkflyguy
Posts: 249
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:25 pm

Re: Updated: LGA Airtrain halted by Governor

Wed Oct 06, 2021 5:47 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
The Subway is simply a better solution. There is not a money problem here. This is a praise-worthy move by New Gov. If FAA regs did not previously support LGA Subway extension, it shows how stupid FAA regs previously were. Start at the right answer and work backwards.

Oh… and locals should get to _compete_ for the various route alternatives. Draw 2 good routes and make the neighborhoods compete for the honor. What they can offer would be, for example, a legal defense commitment funded by property owners who stand to gain.



The latest leg of the subway, the 2nd Ave. line, cost $2.7 billion a mile to build. That opened several years ago.

So assuming 3 miles from Ditmars to LGA…let’s round down…$6 billion dollars.

And a lot of lawsuits.


Tell me how you plan to get this approved and paid for?

STT757…please feel free to chime in here too…as you are a big advocate of this plan


There is a big cost difference between deep hard-rock tunnel boring and cut and cover tunneling through the soft soils of queens/Brooklyn. But this plan was idiotic. At a minimum, it needed to connect to Jamaica so that people on Long Island could take the LIRR to Jamaica and go to either LGA or JFK.
 
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United787
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Re: Updated: LGA Airtrain halted by Governor

Wed Oct 06, 2021 5:59 pm

Better to spend $6 billion on the right solution than $2 billion on the wrong solution.

NYC, the largest city in the country, with the largest rapid transit system (by quantity of stations) in the world, still has NO 'direct' route to any of it's three major airports. Yes, I know the AirTrains at JFK and EWR provide a connection but not the same thing. It is not only embarrassing for New Yorkers, but embarrassing for our country.

Is NYC finished taking on major infrastructure projects? I hope not.
 
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KrustyTheKlown
Posts: 379
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Re: Updated: LGA Airtrain halted by Governor

Wed Oct 06, 2021 7:03 pm

FluidFlow wrote:
Isn't there a possibility to build the train as an "Unterpflasterbahn" (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unterpflasterbahn, sorry only in German) beneath the Grand Central. The good thing is you can do it with the "Deckelbauweise" (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deckelbauweise, again only in German).

This way you have the least disruption and can built something really effective. It is also cheap compared to conventional tunnel building.

In short you pile left, right and center of the highway down into the bedrock or into soil that can support the load of the road. During this the road can be used. Then you rebuild the motorway so it is supported by them pillars. Only during this time the road has to be partially blocked. You first built the westbound than the eastbound. After the "lid" (which is the new road) is done, you can dig out the soil underneath and you have a "tunnel". Now just do the interior construction and lay the rails. Done.


Those are just different names for cut and cover tunneling.

Many lines of the NY subway were build using that method over a century ago.

https://www.nycsubway.org/wiki/The_New_ ... nstruction

-------------------------------------

The other posters extrapolating costs from the 2nd avenue subway are making false analogies as tunneling under all the existing infrastructure on top of that line is many times more complicated than in the low density areas near LGA.
 
FluidFlow
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Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:39 am

Re: Updated: LGA Airtrain halted by Governor

Wed Oct 06, 2021 7:20 pm

KrustyTheKlown wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:
Isn't there a possibility to build the train as an "Unterpflasterbahn" (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unterpflasterbahn, sorry only in German) beneath the Grand Central. The good thing is you can do it with the "Deckelbauweise" (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deckelbauweise, again only in German).

This way you have the least disruption and can built something really effective. It is also cheap compared to conventional tunnel building.

In short you pile left, right and center of the highway down into the bedrock or into soil that can support the load of the road. During this the road can be used. Then you rebuild the motorway so it is supported by them pillars. Only during this time the road has to be partially blocked. You first built the westbound than the eastbound. After the "lid" (which is the new road) is done, you can dig out the soil underneath and you have a "tunnel". Now just do the interior construction and lay the rails. Done.


Those are just different names for cut and cover tunneling.

Many lines of the NY subway were build using that method over a century ago.

https://www.nycsubway.org/wiki/The_New_ ... nstruction

-------------------------------------

The other posters extrapolating costs from the 2nd avenue subway are making false analogies as tunneling under all the existing infrastructure on top of that line is many times more complicated than in the low density areas near LGA.


Exactly. I do not see the problem at all building that line if it really is wanted. It is relatively cheep as there is a huge motorway to pluck it under, there is no difficult terrain nor any special buildings (high, subterran structures, etc.) near it and as it would be underground there is also no noise pollution (except during construction). Yes you could argue there is some blockage of the motorway but at least you could bring it up to date and it will be good for the next 20-30 years.

So it is a win win but why go ahaed if you can burn money for lawyer and study after study…
 
kalvado
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Re: Updated: LGA Airtrain halted by Governor

Wed Oct 06, 2021 7:48 pm

FluidFlow wrote:
KrustyTheKlown wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:
Isn't there a possibility to build the train as an "Unterpflasterbahn" (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unterpflasterbahn, sorry only in German) beneath the Grand Central. The good thing is you can do it with the "Deckelbauweise" (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deckelbauweise, again only in German).

This way you have the least disruption and can built something really effective. It is also cheap compared to conventional tunnel building.

In short you pile left, right and center of the highway down into the bedrock or into soil that can support the load of the road. During this the road can be used. Then you rebuild the motorway so it is supported by them pillars. Only during this time the road has to be partially blocked. You first built the westbound than the eastbound. After the "lid" (which is the new road) is done, you can dig out the soil underneath and you have a "tunnel". Now just do the interior construction and lay the rails. Done.


Those are just different names for cut and cover tunneling.

Many lines of the NY subway were build using that method over a century ago.

https://www.nycsubway.org/wiki/The_New_ ... nstruction

-------------------------------------

The other posters extrapolating costs from the 2nd avenue subway are making false analogies as tunneling under all the existing infrastructure on top of that line is many times more complicated than in the low density areas near LGA.


Exactly. I do not see the problem at all building that line if it really is wanted. It is relatively cheep as there is a huge motorway to pluck it under, there is no difficult terrain nor any special buildings (high, subterran structures, etc.) near it and as it would be underground there is also no noise pollution (except during construction). Yes you could argue there is some blockage of the motorway but at least you could bring it up to date and it will be good for the next 20-30 years.

So it is a win win but why go ahaed if you can burn money for lawyer and study after study…


There is no such thing as "cheap" in NYC. It can be very expensive, horrifically expensive or priced out of scale.
 
cloudboy
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Re: Updated: LGA Airtrain halted by Governor

Wed Oct 06, 2021 7:55 pm

It's more than just space. What is the ground underneath it like - solid? Fill? Stable? And what infrastructure exists already down there and needs to be dealt with?
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: Updated: LGA Airtrain halted by Governor

Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:25 pm

Second Ave construction I referred to was cut and cover.

Almost all subway construction in NY is.
 
kalvado
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Re: Updated: LGA Airtrain halted by Governor

Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:35 pm

cloudboy wrote:
It's more than just space. What is the ground underneath it like - solid? Fill? Stable? And what infrastructure exists already down there and needs to be dealt with?

One interesting spot may be near the end of RWY 4, where the tunnel would have to cross 3 sewer lines - while the surface is some 20' - 6 meters - above sea level.
Given some LGA flooding history, that is another level of complexity for the tunnel.
 
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usdcaguy
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Re: Updated: LGA Airtrain halted by Governor

Wed Oct 06, 2021 10:18 pm

The LGA AirTrain may have not made any sense, but it would have been something to work with. Work on the other options would be more disruptive to more New Yorkers, so it is unlikely anything will be built in the next 20 years. I'm still very skeptical as to whether New Yorkers and visitors alike would use a subway line to get into Manhattan given the claustrophobic size of the train cars and lack of luggage racks. Hopping a cab is just too easy, and it takes the hassle of dealing with your suitcase in the subway off your hands and keeps your clothes free of sweat. Also, so many people visiting Manhattan are traveling on business expense accounts that the cost of the cabs do little to discourage their use. Only a few thrifty travelers take the shuttle into Grand Central, and it's a hassle at best. It may be worth it for the airport to start offering direct buses replete with luggage racks into Times Square and other busy Midtown locations to see if people are willing to use a public solution to reach their destination. If their use is low, the city will know that the solution is not more transit. Otherwise, they can start looking at new options.
 
global2
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Re: FAA approves LGA Airtrain

Thu Oct 07, 2021 1:49 am

jfklganyc wrote:
Dead!

Enjoy the cab ride.

Never complain about the clogged roads again.

First up will be Thanksgiving weekend Wed prior and Sunday/Monday prior.

That’s when people usually leave their cars and walk.

What a stupid and boneheaded move. A real project literally waiting to break ground…and they did the one thing that you should never do a New York City… listen to an angry mob that wants NOTHING built.

There are no viable alternatives because they all involve years of litigation as they will all effect neighbors. This project affected no one. That is the reason for the route.

There will be no train to LGA and if they need to do a tandem bi-state approval for mega projects, no new train to EWR either.

Sad day for the NY region


I have to agree. It would have been better to have even this flawed Airtrain vs. what we are now going to have, which is no rail service at all. I didn't know what to think of this new governor, that is until yesterday. This decision is pure politics and pandering. Moreover, there will never be a subway built to LGA because that would require the Port Authority and the MTA, two political fiefdoms, to cooperate with each other. Not happening. The new "alternatives" to be explored will be a fresh coat of paint on a bus lane, that's it.
 
ContinentalEWR
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Re: Updated: LGA Airtrain halted by Governor

Thu Oct 07, 2021 11:38 am

A real mistake not to build a rail connection to LGA, even a flawed one, although the price tag is likely as high as it was thanks to kickbacks and other shady contractual negotiations that likely are always part of infrastructure construction in and around NYC. The issue here is the traffic. It is terrible and the roadways leading to LGA are 1930s and 1940s vintage, and while some key interchanges and flyovers are being rebuilt, the roadway is in terrible shape, not good for the environment, and embarrassing that America's largest city and a key hub of business and commerce, lacks further, better public transportation to key air hubs.
 
bluecrew
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Re: Updated: LGA Airtrain halted by Governor

Thu Oct 07, 2021 1:13 pm

kalvado wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:
KrustyTheKlown wrote:

Those are just different names for cut and cover tunneling.

Many lines of the NY subway were build using that method over a century ago.

https://www.nycsubway.org/wiki/The_New_ ... nstruction

-------------------------------------

The other posters extrapolating costs from the 2nd avenue subway are making false analogies as tunneling under all the existing infrastructure on top of that line is many times more complicated than in the low density areas near LGA.


Exactly. I do not see the problem at all building that line if it really is wanted. It is relatively cheep as there is a huge motorway to pluck it under, there is no difficult terrain nor any special buildings (high, subterran structures, etc.) near it and as it would be underground there is also no noise pollution (except during construction). Yes you could argue there is some blockage of the motorway but at least you could bring it up to date and it will be good for the next 20-30 years.

So it is a win win but why go ahaed if you can burn money for lawyer and study after study…


There is no such thing as "cheap" in NYC. It can be very expensive, horrifically expensive or priced out of scale.

Correct. My partner works in a field that often has to get construction quotes in NYC for cabling.

100 feet of underground wiring after permits in Brooklyn was over $1m. To stretch from one end of a block to the middle.

This is the same city that tried to ban soda. Your "cheap" has no power here. :lol:
 
blockski
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Re: Updated: LGA Airtrain halted by Governor

Thu Oct 07, 2021 1:19 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
Second Ave construction I referred to was cut and cover.

Almost all subway construction in NY is.


No, the vast majority of the Second Ave Subway construction used tunnel boring machines; the stations were built using cut and cover techniques.

And also, no, the vast majority of new construction (there's been very little!) for transit in NYC does not use cut and cover. Don't confuse today's practices with what was used to build the IRT 120 year ago.

Neither LIRR to Grand Central, nor the 7 extension to Hudson Yards, nor the Second Ave Subway used cut and cover for the actual tunneling.
 
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STT757
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Re: Updated: LGA Airtrain halted by Governor

Thu Oct 07, 2021 1:41 pm

There's an opportunity, whether it comes to fruition or not does not take away from the fact that the benefits of having a direct subway connection are worth the loss of the Airtrain. The $2.7 Billion the Port Authority was going to provide via PFC's can be a part of a larger package that includes MTA funds from Congestion pricing as well as Federal Infrastructure funding to build the N/R extension. If the Subway project doesn't come to fruition, $2.7 Billion would create some nice dedicated bus rapid transit opportunities.
 
kalvado
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Re: Updated: LGA Airtrain halted by Governor

Thu Oct 07, 2021 1:46 pm

STT757 wrote:
There's an opportunity, whether it comes to fruition or not does not take away from the fact that the benefits of having a direct subway connection are worth the loss of the Airtrain. The $2.7 Billion the Port Authority was going to provide via PFC's can be a part of a larger package that includes MTA funds from Congestion pricing as well as Federal Infrastructure funding to build the N/R extension. If the Subway project doesn't come to fruition, $2.7 Billion would create some nice dedicated bus rapid transit opportunities.

There is very little benefit of subway connection as chances of it actually happening are minuscule. A small fish is much better than an empty dish.
 
GSP psgr
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Re: Updated: LGA Airtrain halted by Governor

Thu Oct 07, 2021 4:44 pm

N62NA wrote:
alberchico wrote:
GSP psgr wrote:
IIRC, you only have to run the N two or three blocks to the north where you hit the NIMBYless safety of the big ConEd facility, and from there you are practically home free. Overcoming two blocks of NIMBY opposition should be possible; not without aggravation, but doable.


But then how would you cross Runway 4 to connect with the terminals without impacting the low flying aircraft on final approach ? A tunnel would be too expensive and disruptive.


I just looked at an aerial map of the area and tried figuring out how and extension from the current terminus of the N train would get to LGA. I get the 2 block extension north to the Con Ed facility, but then how do you head east? Do you snake around to the east and head down 19th Avenue? Then turn south on 81st street to the GCP?


Jog north to ConEd, hang a right down 19th, doing cut and cover all the way to the front door of the Marine Air Terminal. Small short tunnel across runway 4, emerging to run elevated to the other two terminals above Runway Drive.
 
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STT757
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Re: Updated: LGA Airtrain halted by Governor

Thu Oct 07, 2021 4:49 pm

This is the best reporting I've seen thus far on the entire project, the current status and what might come next..

https://www.railwayage.com/passenger/rapid-transit/hochul-walks-laguardia-airtraintightrope/
 
kalvado
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Re: Updated: LGA Airtrain halted by Governor

Thu Oct 07, 2021 5:13 pm

GSP psgr wrote:
N62NA wrote:
alberchico wrote:

But then how would you cross Runway 4 to connect with the terminals without impacting the low flying aircraft on final approach ? A tunnel would be too expensive and disruptive.


I just looked at an aerial map of the area and tried figuring out how and extension from the current terminus of the N train would get to LGA. I get the 2 block extension north to the Con Ed facility, but then how do you head east? Do you snake around to the east and head down 19th Avenue? Then turn south on 81st street to the GCP?


Jog north to ConEd, hang a right down 19th, doing cut and cover all the way to the front door of the Marine Air Terminal. Small short tunnel across runway 4, emerging to run elevated to the other two terminals above Runway Drive.

since RWY4 is some 10' above the actual sea level, that should be a good plan. $100B? Including all the flood protection and evacuation provisions in case of flooding. And as protection will eventually fail, a major rebuild every 10 years or so, after hurricanes. And as sea level is projected to rise, a new construction in some 50 years. Construction companies LOVE such things!
 
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N62NA
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Re: Updated: LGA Airtrain halted by Governor

Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:10 am

GSP psgr wrote:
N62NA wrote:
I just looked at an aerial map of the area and tried figuring out how and extension from the current terminus of the N train would get to LGA. I get the 2 block extension north to the Con Ed facility, but then how do you head east? Do you snake around to the east and head down 19th Avenue? Then turn south on 81st street to the GCP?


Jog north to ConEd, hang a right down 19th, doing cut and cover all the way to the front door of the Marine Air Terminal. Small short tunnel across runway 4, emerging to run elevated to the other two terminals above Runway Drive.


Right, that was my guess too.
 
FluidFlow
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Re: Updated: LGA Airtrain halted by Governor

Fri Oct 08, 2021 6:47 am

kalvado wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:
KrustyTheKlown wrote:

Those are just different names for cut and cover tunneling.

Many lines of the NY subway were build using that method over a century ago.

https://www.nycsubway.org/wiki/The_New_ ... nstruction

-------------------------------------

The other posters extrapolating costs from the 2nd avenue subway are making false analogies as tunneling under all the existing infrastructure on top of that line is many times more complicated than in the low density areas near LGA.


Exactly. I do not see the problem at all building that line if it really is wanted. It is relatively cheep as there is a huge motorway to pluck it under, there is no difficult terrain nor any special buildings (high, subterran structures, etc.) near it and as it would be underground there is also no noise pollution (except during construction). Yes you could argue there is some blockage of the motorway but at least you could bring it up to date and it will be good for the next 20-30 years.

So it is a win win but why go ahaed if you can burn money for lawyer and study after study…


There is no such thing as "cheap" in NYC. It can be very expensive, horrifically expensive or priced out of scale.


I think it is important to understand that building in any city is expensive just from because you actually have proper buildings all around your construction site that are not just cardboard houses that hold together with cheap wood.

Building in Manhattan is a horrible challenge because all the buildings extend way below surface so while building under/inbetween these structures is a real challenge. Every little crack caused will be horribly expensive to fix because tests for structural integrity have to be carried out. So you actually have to place millions worth of test equipment into all the buildings to make sure it was not you causing damage.

Compared to that it is cheap and easy to build in the area around LGA. Still way more expensive than building in Kentucky but cheap compared to building in down town NY.

On top of that building 4 km of tracks in Kentucky does not give anyone any benefit while millions of people would profit from only 4km of track down to LGA.

But as a European it is so hard to understand why it is impossible in the US to get proper public transport connections to an airport.
 
cloudboy
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Re: Updated: LGA Airtrain halted by Governor

Fri Oct 08, 2021 12:46 pm

FluidFlow wrote:
kalvado wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:

But as a European it is so hard to understand why it is impossible in the US to get proper public transport connections to an airport.


Because the issue really isn't about the technical or financial obstacles, its is about whether or not the local people really want the airport to be accessible. The Airtrain link to LGA is about the same distanace as the Atlanta airport peoplemover. It is less than the length of a runway. The backtracking argument is really just a red herring. The real issue is that he people don't want LaGuardia to be a gateway airport - they want it to be a small local airport. Extending the N-W line stands no more chance of happening.
 
mysterzip
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Re: Updated: LGA Airtrain halted by Governor

Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:21 pm

Current bus service with some access improvements serves LGA just fine.

What’s wrong with an AirTrain alignment from Jamaica or Federal Circle, stopping at Flushing Meadows and resuming the alignment as proposed? Other than length and cost, of course.

In the meantime, buses will have to do. MTA buses are more reliable in snow/wind events than the AirTrain, which shuts down or experiences sharp declines in headways (every 16 minutes is not acceptable, IMO)
(Source: my experience with Q10/Q3/B15)
 
cloudboy
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Re: Updated: LGA Airtrain halted by Governor

Fri Oct 08, 2021 3:25 pm

mysterzip wrote:
Current bus service with some access improvements serves LGA just fine.

What’s wrong with an AirTrain alignment from Jamaica or Federal Circle, stopping at Flushing Meadows and resuming the alignment as proposed? Other than length and cost, of course.

In the meantime, buses will have to do. MTA buses are more reliable in snow/wind events than the AirTrain, which shuts down or experiences sharp declines in headways (every 16 minutes is not acceptable, IMO)
(Source: my experience with Q10/Q3/B15)


Again, this comes from the point of locals leaving the airport. Which is how the locals want it. Anyone who is not from New York is going to have a really hard time figuring out how to even take the bus, let alone which route, knowing that Woodside will connect you to a train, and figuring out how to take the train in from there to Manhattan.

This is not being critical of the local population. That is how they want it, and I think it is kind of stupid (not to mention presumptuous) of everyone else to try and turn LaGuradia into a major gateway airport for Manhattan. It may be close physically, but proximity does not equal ease of access.

That being said, I also think if that is the case, LaGuardia should also not get attention from a federal level to become more than a regional airport either. Those funds should be focused on airports that are willing to play a bigger role. I think the focus should be on improving access from JFK and EWR into Manhattan.
 
kalvado
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Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Updated: LGA Airtrain halted by Governor

Fri Oct 08, 2021 5:00 pm

cloudboy wrote:
mysterzip wrote:
Current bus service with some access improvements serves LGA just fine.

What’s wrong with an AirTrain alignment from Jamaica or Federal Circle, stopping at Flushing Meadows and resuming the alignment as proposed? Other than length and cost, of course.

In the meantime, buses will have to do. MTA buses are more reliable in snow/wind events than the AirTrain, which shuts down or experiences sharp declines in headways (every 16 minutes is not acceptable, IMO)
(Source: my experience with Q10/Q3/B15)


Again, this comes from the point of locals leaving the airport. Which is how the locals want it. Anyone who is not from New York is going to have a really hard time figuring out how to even take the bus, let alone which route, knowing that Woodside will connect you to a train, and figuring out how to take the train in from there to Manhattan.

This is not being critical of the local population. That is how they want it, and I think it is kind of stupid (not to mention presumptuous) of everyone else to try and turn LaGuradia into a major gateway airport for Manhattan. It may be close physically, but proximity does not equal ease of access.

That being said, I also think if that is the case, LaGuardia should also not get attention from a federal level to become more than a regional airport either. Those funds should be focused on airports that are willing to play a bigger role. I think the focus should be on improving access from JFK and EWR into Manhattan.

LGA already has that perimeter rule slapped on it, so it is a regional airport to begin with. But it just got a major renovation.
But is an important city from political and financial perspective. That's where money is. ANd it is important to keep NYC population happy.
So Amtrak tunnels will be funded - for a glorified NJ commuter project; Tappan Zee got rebuilt - again mostly used by commuters. If LGA will work fine for commuters, that will be a good enough solution.
 
GSP psgr
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Re: Updated: LGA Airtrain halted by Governor

Fri Oct 08, 2021 6:44 pm

N62NA wrote:
GSP psgr wrote:
N62NA wrote:
I just looked at an aerial map of the area and tried figuring out how and extension from the current terminus of the N train would get to LGA. I get the 2 block extension north to the Con Ed facility, but then how do you head east? Do you snake around to the east and head down 19th Avenue? Then turn south on 81st street to the GCP?


Jog north to ConEd, hang a right down 19th, doing cut and cover all the way to the front door of the Marine Air Terminal. Small short tunnel across runway 4, emerging to run elevated to the other two terminals above Runway Drive.


Right, that was my guess too.


This post on Reddit suggests that's exactly what the plan for doing this would be. Additionally, that area around 19th is something that the city might like to rezone and redevelop anyways, as it's a lot of warehouse space, so I'd guess there'd be a station somewhere on that stretch to facilitate that too. My other guess is that while this would be expensive, it won't be nearly so bad as the Second Avenue work they've been doing-Manhattan is a whole other two levels of expensive for lots of reasons. Better to spend $3-3.5 billion on something that's very useful versus $2 billion on something that is of dubious value.
 
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United787
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Re: Updated: LGA Airtrain halted by Governor

Fri Oct 08, 2021 7:47 pm

kalvado wrote:
cloudboy wrote:
mysterzip wrote:
Current bus service with some access improvements serves LGA just fine.

What’s wrong with an AirTrain alignment from Jamaica or Federal Circle, stopping at Flushing Meadows and resuming the alignment as proposed? Other than length and cost, of course.

In the meantime, buses will have to do. MTA buses are more reliable in snow/wind events than the AirTrain, which shuts down or experiences sharp declines in headways (every 16 minutes is not acceptable, IMO)
(Source: my experience with Q10/Q3/B15)


Again, this comes from the point of locals leaving the airport. Which is how the locals want it. Anyone who is not from New York is going to have a really hard time figuring out how to even take the bus, let alone which route, knowing that Woodside will connect you to a train, and figuring out how to take the train in from there to Manhattan.

This is not being critical of the local population. That is how they want it, and I think it is kind of stupid (not to mention presumptuous) of everyone else to try and turn LaGuradia into a major gateway airport for Manhattan. It may be close physically, but proximity does not equal ease of access.

That being said, I also think if that is the case, LaGuardia should also not get attention from a federal level to become more than a regional airport either. Those funds should be focused on airports that are willing to play a bigger role. I think the focus should be on improving access from JFK and EWR into Manhattan.

LGA already has that perimeter rule slapped on it, so it is a regional airport to begin with. But it just got a major renovation.
But is an important city from political and financial perspective. That's where money is. ANd it is important to keep NYC population happy.
So Amtrak tunnels will be funded - for a glorified NJ commuter project; Tappan Zee got rebuilt - again mostly used by commuters. If LGA will work fine for commuters, that will be a good enough solution.


Is this really the reasoning behind New Yorkers not wanting their rapid transit to connect to LGA? No matter what anyway does, LGA, EWR and JFK can not be anymore or less than what they are as the three airports are essentially maxed out with zero room to grow. NYC city needs all 3 airports as is. Connecting the rapid transit airport will have no affect on the growth of LGA, it will only make it more convienent for locals and visitors to access the airport and reduce congestion on local roads. Do they think if the train comes to the airport, suddenly LGA will sprout more runways, Southwest will start flying to NRT, GRU and LHR followed by the closure of JFK and EWR?
 
kalvado
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Re: Updated: LGA Airtrain halted by Governor

Fri Oct 08, 2021 8:50 pm

United787 wrote:
kalvado wrote:
cloudboy wrote:

Again, this comes from the point of locals leaving the airport. Which is how the locals want it. Anyone who is not from New York is going to have a really hard time figuring out how to even take the bus, let alone which route, knowing that Woodside will connect you to a train, and figuring out how to take the train in from there to Manhattan.

This is not being critical of the local population. That is how they want it, and I think it is kind of stupid (not to mention presumptuous) of everyone else to try and turn LaGuradia into a major gateway airport for Manhattan. It may be close physically, but proximity does not equal ease of access.

That being said, I also think if that is the case, LaGuardia should also not get attention from a federal level to become more than a regional airport either. Those funds should be focused on airports that are willing to play a bigger role. I think the focus should be on improving access from JFK and EWR into Manhattan.

LGA already has that perimeter rule slapped on it, so it is a regional airport to begin with. But it just got a major renovation.
But is an important city from political and financial perspective. That's where money is. ANd it is important to keep NYC population happy.
So Amtrak tunnels will be funded - for a glorified NJ commuter project; Tappan Zee got rebuilt - again mostly used by commuters. If LGA will work fine for commuters, that will be a good enough solution.


Is this really the reasoning behind New Yorkers not wanting their rapid transit to connect to LGA? No matter what anyway does, LGA, EWR and JFK can not be anymore or less than what they are as the three airports are essentially maxed out with zero room to grow. NYC city needs all 3 airports as is. Connecting the rapid transit airport will have no affect on the growth of LGA, it will only make it more convienent for locals and visitors to access the airport and reduce congestion on local roads. Do they think if the train comes to the airport, suddenly LGA will sprout more runways, Southwest will start flying to NRT, GRU and LHR followed by the closure of JFK and EWR?


Re=reading the thread.... More that NYC residents do not see as much value in the proposal as outsiders.
Living in the city one should know bus system, be much more comfortable with navigation and, most of all, would be offended to pay extra for that special chunk of train. Besides, more destinations within the city are likely to be considered.
Outsider, even coming from a major city like ORD, is much more likely to benefit from clear cut "this train drops you at the subway station, there take a train to Manhattan". Even if routing is not optimal and it costs a few $$ extra.
 
Vctony
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Re: Updated: LGA Airtrain halted by Governor

Fri Oct 08, 2021 9:03 pm

As an outsider this is really a shame. I guess I’ll continue to use JFK as it has decent train access.
 
leader1
Posts: 143
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 4:44 am

Re: Updated: LGA Airtrain halted by Governor

Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:00 am

While the latest news isn’t surprising, it’s still disappointing. Hochul has done whatever she can to distance herself from everything associated with Cuomo. Infrastructure projects are no exception.

I think MTA fetishists need to accept that there will be no N/W train extension to LGA, regardless of badly they want it. Too expensive and the local residents will reject it since it would cut across a very populated area. Heck, vocal local activists complained about Amazon building their HQ in an isolated, rundown area with abandoned factories. How do you think they’ll react to nonstop construction disrupting residential areas, potentially crashing home values? This project will never happen.

And to those thinking that bus lanes will suffice, have any of you driven in Northern Queens lately? I’ve been living in NYC off and on for over 20 years, the entire time in different Northern Queens neighborhoods, and I have NEVER seen traffic as bad as it is now. It’s absolutely terrible. MTA ridership is down by about half, with people working from home and shunning the subway and busses because they think they’ll catch the virus on them. The MTA has said that they don’t expect that ridership will ever return to pre-pandemic levels. So, why would they invest in bus lanes or subway extensions (and have they even released a recent plan of extending the N/W?)? Besides, have any of you ever taken NYC buses? They’re unreliable. And with more people driving, you think the DOT is going to shut down road lanes for buses to make traffic even worse?

While not perfect, this AirTrain was the only realistic chance LGA had of getting some form of rail service. The other suggestions just aren’t viable and will not happen. So, get used to the status quo. Drive, take a cab or enjoy the bus.
 
RollerRB211
Posts: 49
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Re: Updated: LGA Airtrain halted by Governor

Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:09 am

leader1 wrote:
While the latest news isn’t surprising, it’s still disappointing. Hochul has done whatever she can to distance herself from everything associated with Cuomo. Infrastructure projects are no exception.

I think MTA fetishists need to accept that there will be no N/W train extension to LGA, regardless of badly they want it. Too expensive and the local residents will reject it since it would cut across a very populated area. Heck, vocal local activists complained about Amazon building their HQ in an isolated, rundown area with abandoned factories. How do you think they’ll react to nonstop construction disrupting residential areas, potentially crashing home values? This project will never happen.

And to those thinking that bus lanes will suffice, have any of you driven in Northern Queens lately? I’ve been living in NYC off and on for over 20 years, the entire time in different Northern Queens neighborhoods, and I have NEVER seen traffic as bad as it is now. It’s absolutely terrible. MTA ridership is down by about half, with people working from home and shunning the subway and busses because they think they’ll catch the virus on them. The MTA has said that they don’t expect that ridership will ever return to pre-pandemic levels. So, why would they invest in bus lanes or subway extensions (and have they even released a recent plan of extending the N/W?)? Besides, have any of you ever taken NYC buses? They’re unreliable. And with more people driving, you think the DOT is going to shut down road lanes for buses to make traffic even worse?

While not perfect, this AirTrain was the only realistic chance LGA had of getting some form of rail service. The other suggestions just aren’t viable and will not happen. So, get used to the status quo. Drive, take a cab or enjoy the bus.


The Q70 is a very good solution and I would continue to use it even if they build the AirTrain.
 
blockski
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Re: Updated: LGA Airtrain halted by Governor

Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:52 pm

cloudboy wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:
kalvado wrote:


Because the issue really isn't about the technical or financial obstacles, its is about whether or not the local people really want the airport to be accessible. The Airtrain link to LGA is about the same distanace as the Atlanta airport peoplemover. It is less than the length of a runway. The backtracking argument is really just a red herring. The real issue is that he people don't want LaGuardia to be a gateway airport - they want it to be a small local airport. Extending the N-W line stands no more chance of happening.


The backtracking isn't a red herring at all.

Proponents of this project (including Cuomo) want an AirTrain for the sake of having an AirTrain. But it's far, far better to actually have a useful transit connection, and the wrong-way AirTrain isn't useful. It's also a farce of process, with the entire EIS clearly backfilled to meet the Governor's desires. The reason people bring up the backtracking isn't just because of the route, but because Cuomo specifically sold the project as a Manhattan connection in 30 mins or less. He was lying! And it's never a good sign for the merits of a project if you have to lie about what it is to make the case.

Tangentially, Hochul has been such a breath of fresh air in terms of actual, competent governance, and illustrates how much of Cuomo's performance was just that - a performance.

Extending the N/W makes a lot of sense, but it's also not an easy project. With our silly financing rules about PFC funds, it's a lot more complicated to finance that kind of project. Alternatively, building an AirTrain to someplace more useful (like Jackson Heights - going in the right direction and connecting to far more transit services) would be a much better plan.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: Updated: LGA Airtrain halted by Governor

Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:57 pm

blockski wrote:
cloudboy wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:


Because the issue really isn't about the technical or financial obstacles, its is about whether or not the local people really want the airport to be accessible. The Airtrain link to LGA is about the same distanace as the Atlanta airport peoplemover. It is less than the length of a runway. The backtracking argument is really just a red herring. The real issue is that he people don't want LaGuardia to be a gateway airport - they want it to be a small local airport. Extending the N-W line stands no more chance of happening.


The backtracking isn't a red herring at all.

Proponents of this project (including Cuomo) want an AirTrain for the sake of having an AirTrain. But it's far, far better to actually have a useful transit connection, and the wrong-way AirTrain isn't useful. It's also a farce of process, with the entire EIS clearly backfilled to meet the Governor's desires. The reason people bring up the backtracking isn't just because of the route, but because Cuomo specifically sold the project as a Manhattan connection in 30 mins or less. He was lying! And it's never a good sign for the merits of a project if you have to lie about what it is to make the case.

Tangentially, Hochul has been such a breath of fresh air in terms of actual, competent governance, and illustrates how much of Cuomo's performance was just that - a performance.

Extending the N/W makes a lot of sense, but it's also not an easy project. With our silly financing rules about PFC funds, it's a lot more complicated to finance that kind of project. Alternatively, building an AirTrain to someplace more useful (like Jackson Heights - going in the right direction and connecting to far more transit services) would be a much better plan.



How would you build an Airtrain to Jackson Heights? What route are you proposing?
 
blockski
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Re: Updated: LGA Airtrain halted by Governor

Wed Oct 13, 2021 2:02 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
blockski wrote:
cloudboy wrote:

Because the issue really isn't about the technical or financial obstacles, its is about whether or not the local people really want the airport to be accessible. The Airtrain link to LGA is about the same distanace as the Atlanta airport peoplemover. It is less than the length of a runway. The backtracking argument is really just a red herring. The real issue is that he people don't want LaGuardia to be a gateway airport - they want it to be a small local airport. Extending the N-W line stands no more chance of happening.


The backtracking isn't a red herring at all.

Proponents of this project (including Cuomo) want an AirTrain for the sake of having an AirTrain. But it's far, far better to actually have a useful transit connection, and the wrong-way AirTrain isn't useful. It's also a farce of process, with the entire EIS clearly backfilled to meet the Governor's desires. The reason people bring up the backtracking isn't just because of the route, but because Cuomo specifically sold the project as a Manhattan connection in 30 mins or less. He was lying! And it's never a good sign for the merits of a project if you have to lie about what it is to make the case.

Tangentially, Hochul has been such a breath of fresh air in terms of actual, competent governance, and illustrates how much of Cuomo's performance was just that - a performance.

Extending the N/W makes a lot of sense, but it's also not an easy project. With our silly financing rules about PFC funds, it's a lot more complicated to finance that kind of project. Alternatively, building an AirTrain to someplace more useful (like Jackson Heights - going in the right direction and connecting to far more transit services) would be a much better plan.



How would you build an Airtrain to Jackson Heights? What route are you proposing?


You could build this, basically - just follow existing highway and railroad rights of way: https://www.thetransportpolitic.com/201 ... -any-time/
 
cloudboy
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Re: Updated: LGA Airtrain halted by Governor

Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:29 pm

blockski wrote:
cloudboy wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:


Because the issue really isn't about the technical or financial obstacles, its is about whether or not the local people really want the airport to be accessible. The Airtrain link to LGA is about the same distanace as the Atlanta airport peoplemover. It is less than the length of a runway. The backtracking argument is really just a red herring. The real issue is that he people don't want LaGuardia to be a gateway airport - they want it to be a small local airport. Extending the N-W line stands no more chance of happening.


The backtracking isn't a red herring at all.

Proponents of this project (including Cuomo) want an AirTrain for the sake of having an AirTrain. But it's far, far better to actually have a useful transit connection, and the wrong-way AirTrain isn't useful. It's also a farce of process, with the entire EIS clearly backfilled to meet the Governor's desires. The reason people bring up the backtracking isn't just because of the route, but because Cuomo specifically sold the project as a Manhattan connection in 30 mins or less. He was lying! And it's never a good sign for the merits of a project if you have to lie about what it is to make the case.

Tangentially, Hochul has been such a breath of fresh air in terms of actual, competent governance, and illustrates how much of Cuomo's performance was just that - a performance.

Extending the N/W makes a lot of sense, but it's also not an easy project. With our silly financing rules about PFC funds, it's a lot more complicated to finance that kind of project. Alternatively, building an AirTrain to someplace more useful (like Jackson Heights - going in the right direction and connecting to far more transit services) would be a much better plan.


The proposed AirTrain is about the same length as Atlanta's Plane Train between terminals. It is half that of the DFW Skylink. And those have more stops than the Airtrain would have. Unfortunately the arguments of going way out of the way just doesn't hold water. And that is at the basis of the argument against it. The rest is really just a distaste for previous administration or a distaste of any more transit at all. And the fact is that all this political maneuvering is what is really driving up the costs, instead of just getting the project done. Either build it, or don't build it at all. Don't drag it out.
 
blockski
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Re: Updated: LGA Airtrain halted by Governor

Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:43 pm

cloudboy wrote:
The proposed AirTrain is about the same length as Atlanta's Plane Train between terminals. It is half that of the DFW Skylink. And those have more stops than the Airtrain would have.


What's the relevance here? Why compare airside circulation systems with an external public transit route?

Again, the objection isn't that they're building something that's too long, it's that they're proposing something that's not useful.

Unfortunately the arguments of going way out of the way just doesn't hold water. And that is at the basis of the argument against it. The rest is really just a distaste for previous administration or a distaste of any more transit at all. And the fact is that all this political maneuvering is what is really driving up the costs, instead of just getting the project done.


No, the argument is that for most people going to the airport, the project is going to provide worse service than the Q70 bus.

Nobody cares about route being 'out of the way' for the sake of being out of the way; the reason it matters is because the route is going to be slow.

Yes, there's distaste for the Cuomo administration, because that administration had a really bad track record for transit planning.

It's a false choice to say the only options are bad transit or no transit.
 
kalvado
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Re: Updated: LGA Airtrain halted by Governor

Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:50 pm

blockski wrote:
cloudboy wrote:
The proposed AirTrain is about the same length as Atlanta's Plane Train between terminals. It is half that of the DFW Skylink. And those have more stops than the Airtrain would have.


What's the relevance here? Why compare airside circulation systems with an external public transit route?

Again, the objection isn't that they're building something that's too long, it's that they're proposing something that's not useful.

Unfortunately the arguments of going way out of the way just doesn't hold water. And that is at the basis of the argument against it. The rest is really just a distaste for previous administration or a distaste of any more transit at all. And the fact is that all this political maneuvering is what is really driving up the costs, instead of just getting the project done.


No, the argument is that for most people going to the airport, the project is going to provide worse service than the Q70 bus.

Nobody cares about route being 'out of the way' for the sake of being out of the way; the reason it matters is because the route is going to be slow.

Yes, there's distaste for the Cuomo administration, because that administration had a really bad track record for transit planning.

It's a false choice to say the only options are bad transit or no transit.

Again, this is a perspective of NYCer. But looking from upstate, being a spoiled brat is fashionable in the city.
I remember a few years back there was a user who actively advocated 30 min service intervals using smaller equipment (flights to Florida) as being convenient, even if it overloads airspace and messes scheduling for a good chunk of a country.
 
cloudboy
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Re: Updated: LGA Airtrain halted by Governor

Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:47 pm

blockski wrote:
cloudboy wrote:
The proposed AirTrain is about the same length as Atlanta's Plane Train between terminals. It is half that of the DFW Skylink. And those have more stops than the Airtrain would have.


What's the relevance here? Why compare airside circulation systems with an external public transit route?

Again, the objection isn't that they're building something that's too long, it's that they're proposing something that's not useful.

Unfortunately the arguments of going way out of the way just doesn't hold water. And that is at the basis of the argument against it. The rest is really just a distaste for previous administration or a distaste of any more transit at all. And the fact is that all this political maneuvering is what is really driving up the costs, instead of just getting the project done.


No, the argument is that for most people going to the airport, the project is going to provide worse service than the Q70 bus.

Nobody cares about route being 'out of the way' for the sake of being out of the way; the reason it matters is because the route is going to be slow.

Yes, there's distaste for the Cuomo administration, because that administration had a really bad track record for transit planning.

It's a false choice to say the only options are bad transit or no transit.


I guess I am not even following the logic here. How is a bus, dealing with traffic, that most people who will need to use it won't be able to figure out nor want to deal with luggage on, that leads to a slow subway that again, a lot of non-local people won't be able to figure out, is quicker and more convenient that a grade separated people mover that connects to a real train, is somehow going to be quicker and easier?
 
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STT757
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Re: Updated: LGA Airtrain halted by Governor

Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:13 pm

The Governor didn't terminate the project, she asked the Port Authority to go back and conduct a more thorough review of the alternatives. During the planning studies for the project it was discovered that the agency was pretty much rigging the results of the planning studies to eliminate any other possible alternative. Something employees of the Port Authority themselves wrote in an Op-Ed to the new Governor to stop the project.

What comes out of the review and whether anything (Subway, Airtrain, BRT etc..) gets built remains to be seen. But at the very least the agency needs produce a true unbiased comprehensive report outlining the alternatives, costs and possible public support and litigation. Lay it out publicly and let the decision be made through consensus and not decree. This path forward would be similar to the one used to develop the plan for the reconstruction of the World Trade Center site. The public and local politicians expressed their desires to have direct input into the reconstruction, something former NY Governor Pataki had a problem giving up control over through the Port Authority. While not perfect, the reconstructed World Trade Center is a remarkable accomplishment, the partnership between the community, local politicians, the Port Authority and the private developers all came together to make the vision a reality.


https://secondavenuesagas.com/2020/01/08/how-the-port-authority-rigged-its-alternative-analysis-in-favor-of-cuomos-airtrain/
 
blockski
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Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:30 pm

Re: Updated: LGA Airtrain halted by Governor

Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:52 pm

cloudboy wrote:
blockski wrote:
cloudboy wrote:
The proposed AirTrain is about the same length as Atlanta's Plane Train between terminals. It is half that of the DFW Skylink. And those have more stops than the Airtrain would have.


What's the relevance here? Why compare airside circulation systems with an external public transit route?

Again, the objection isn't that they're building something that's too long, it's that they're proposing something that's not useful.

Unfortunately the arguments of going way out of the way just doesn't hold water. And that is at the basis of the argument against it. The rest is really just a distaste for previous administration or a distaste of any more transit at all. And the fact is that all this political maneuvering is what is really driving up the costs, instead of just getting the project done.


No, the argument is that for most people going to the airport, the project is going to provide worse service than the Q70 bus.

Nobody cares about route being 'out of the way' for the sake of being out of the way; the reason it matters is because the route is going to be slow.

Yes, there's distaste for the Cuomo administration, because that administration had a really bad track record for transit planning.

It's a false choice to say the only options are bad transit or no transit.


I guess I am not even following the logic here. How is a bus, dealing with traffic, that most people who will need to use it won't be able to figure out nor want to deal with luggage on, that leads to a slow subway that again, a lot of non-local people won't be able to figure out, is quicker and more convenient that a grade separated people mover that connects to a real train, is somehow going to be quicker and easier?


You don't need logic, you just need to look at the existing travel times.

To say it again: If you are coming from, say, Manhattan, it would be faster to take the Subway to Jackson Heights, and then transfer to the Q70 bus than it would be to take a much longer subway trip to Willets Point, and then take the AirTrain.

It's true, there's value in legibility and ease of use. But again - there is a massive time penalty for the extra subway travel time between Jackson Heights and Willets Point. It's crazy to spend billions and not actually improve the basic service beyond today's Q70 bus.

The only way that Cuomo's proposal was faster is if you assume you connect to the LIRR. But, AirTrain would only connect to the Port Washington Branch; the LIRR only comes every 30 minutes at best. And because of the lack of fare integration, the cost of that LIRR ticket is already absurdly high.
 
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DocLightning
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Re: Updated: LGA Airtrain halted by Governor

Wed Oct 13, 2021 7:42 pm

blockski wrote:
To say it again: If you are coming from, say, Manhattan, it would be faster to take the Subway to Jackson Heights, and then transfer to the Q70 bus than it would be to take a much longer subway trip to Willets Point, and then take the AirTrain.


Until there's a traffic jam, which happens a lot in NYC. Look, the train system in NYC has its issues, but once you're actually on a train, they tend to move quickly. So as long as the transfer from the subway to the AirTrain isn't too arduous, it's usually going to do a lot better than the bus.

Also, the airtrain will probably come with higher frequency than the bus.
 
blockski
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Re: Updated: LGA Airtrain halted by Governor

Wed Oct 13, 2021 8:00 pm

DocLightning wrote:
blockski wrote:
To say it again: If you are coming from, say, Manhattan, it would be faster to take the Subway to Jackson Heights, and then transfer to the Q70 bus than it would be to take a much longer subway trip to Willets Point, and then take the AirTrain.


Until there's a traffic jam, which happens a lot in NYC. Look, the train system in NYC has its issues, but once you're actually on a train, they tend to move quickly. So as long as the transfer from the subway to the AirTrain isn't too arduous, it's usually going to do a lot better than the bus.

Also, the airtrain will probably come with higher frequency than the bus.


Are people familiar with the Q70 bus? It seems like there are a lot of reactions to this based on the idea of riding a city bus. It has special branding (LaGuardia Link), luggage racks, etc:

https://spectrumlocalnews.com/transit/2 ... ardia-link

The Q70 runs non-stop from LGA to Jackson Heights and back, traveling along highways. The timetables account for the usual traffic, and the bus gets from Jackson Heights to LGA in about 10-12 minutes. The bus runs at least every 10 minutes for most of the day, and more frequently at peak hours. The worst congestion for the bus isn't on the highways, it's at the airport itself.
 
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DocLightning
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Re: Updated: LGA Airtrain halted by Governor

Wed Oct 13, 2021 8:16 pm

blockski wrote:
Are people familiar with the Q70 bus? It seems like there are a lot of reactions to this based on the idea of riding a city bus. It has special branding (LaGuardia Link), luggage racks, etc:


Yes, I took it several times. It seemed to spend more time stopped than moving.
 
kalvado
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Re: Updated: LGA Airtrain halted by Governor

Wed Oct 13, 2021 8:41 pm

blockski wrote:
DocLightning wrote:
blockski wrote:
To say it again: If you are coming from, say, Manhattan, it would be faster to take the Subway to Jackson Heights, and then transfer to the Q70 bus than it would be to take a much longer subway trip to Willets Point, and then take the AirTrain.


Until there's a traffic jam, which happens a lot in NYC. Look, the train system in NYC has its issues, but once you're actually on a train, they tend to move quickly. So as long as the transfer from the subway to the AirTrain isn't too arduous, it's usually going to do a lot better than the bus.

Also, the airtrain will probably come with higher frequency than the bus.


Are people familiar with the Q70 bus? It seems like there are a lot of reactions to this based on the idea of riding a city bus. It has special branding (LaGuardia Link), luggage racks, etc:

https://spectrumlocalnews.com/transit/2 ... ardia-link

The Q70 runs non-stop from LGA to Jackson Heights and back, traveling along highways. The timetables account for the usual traffic, and the bus gets from Jackson Heights to LGA in about 10-12 minutes. The bus runs at least every 10 minutes for most of the day, and more frequently at peak hours. The worst congestion for the bus isn't on the highways, it's at the airport itself.

A follow up question: is average passenger from outside of NYC traveling to-from LGA familiar with those buses?
Interestingly enough, MTA website is thoroughly unhelpful to outsiders:
https://new.mta.info/guides has a link on Taking public transit TO New York-area airports. Nothing about FROM. Which is great for NYCer, but not for outsider. No mention of special bus configuration anyewhere.
LGA web site is a bit less NYC-centric, but equally confusing for an outsider:
https://www.laguardiaairport.com/to-fro ... sportation

Which only reinforces my opinion that NYC centric approach is at the core of the disagreement. Next thing which comes into play is traditional stab-your-neighbor "they don't vote here anyway"
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: Updated: LGA Airtrain halted by Governor

Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:53 am

STT757 wrote:
The Governor didn't terminate the project, she asked the Port Authority to go back and conduct a more thorough review of the alternatives. During the planning studies for the project it was discovered that the agency was pretty much rigging the results of the planning studies to eliminate any other possible alternative. Something employees of the Port Authority themselves wrote in an Op-Ed to the new Governor to stop the project.

What comes out of the review and whether anything (Subway, Airtrain, BRT etc..) gets built remains to be seen. But at the very least the agency needs produce a true unbiased comprehensive report outlining the alternatives, costs and possible public support and litigation. Lay it out publicly and let the decision be made through consensus and not decree. This path forward would be similar to the one used to develop the plan for the reconstruction of the World Trade Center site. The public and local politicians expressed their desires to have direct input into the reconstruction, something former NY Governor Pataki had a problem giving up control over through the Port Authority. While not perfect, the reconstructed World Trade Center is a remarkable accomplishment, the partnership between the community, local politicians, the Port Authority and the private developers all came together to make the vision a reality.


https://secondavenuesagas.com/2020/01/08/how-the-port-authority-rigged-its-alternative-analysis-in-favor-of-cuomos-airtrain/



The world trade center took 20 years to build and is still incomplete.

Numerous power-sharing agreements, lawsuits and threats of lawsuits ensued. Political intervention of people like Pataki and Bloomberg ultimately saved an untamed, free for all of a process.

Billions of dollars over budget:

3 WTC is a stump.

The Greek Church still isnt finished.

5 WTC is still a question mark. No one even knows what type of building this will ultimately be.

No process should look like that ever again.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: Updated: LGA Airtrain halted by Governor

Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:02 am

blockski wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
blockski wrote:

The backtracking isn't a red herring at all.

Proponents of this project (including Cuomo) want an AirTrain for the sake of having an AirTrain. But it's far, far better to actually have a useful transit connection, and the wrong-way AirTrain isn't useful. It's also a farce of process, with the entire EIS clearly backfilled to meet the Governor's desires. The reason people bring up the backtracking isn't just because of the route, but because Cuomo specifically sold the project as a Manhattan connection in 30 mins or less. He was lying! And it's never a good sign for the merits of a project if you have to lie about what it is to make the case.

Tangentially, Hochul has been such a breath of fresh air in terms of actual, competent governance, and illustrates how much of Cuomo's performance was just that - a performance.

Extending the N/W makes a lot of sense, but it's also not an easy project. With our silly financing rules about PFC funds, it's a lot more complicated to finance that kind of project. Alternatively, building an AirTrain to someplace more useful (like Jackson Heights - going in the right direction and connecting to far more transit services) would be a much better plan.



How would you build an Airtrain to Jackson Heights? What route are you proposing?


You could build this, basically - just follow existing highway and railroad rights of way: https://www.thetransportpolitic.com/201 ... -any-time/


The problem with that route is that it is long and circuitous and would cost a Lot more money than the current Airtrain proposal. Also that isn’t a normal Highway. The route depicted is actually the Grand Central Parkway to a connector road ironically called Connecting Highway to I 278. The entire route involves narrow roadways snaking above, below, and at the surface street level. It wouldnt be a clean build out like the Van Wyck Airtrain section.

Also, that depiction is incorrect… That would be a link to Woodside not Jackson Heights. If you wanted to get to 74th St., Broadway in Jackson Heights the train would have to leave the highway and make a left through a residential neighborhood
 
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STT757
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Re: Updated: LGA Airtrain halted by Governor

Sat Oct 23, 2021 1:47 pm

Update:

Port Authority to have outside consultants review options for mass transit to LaGuardia airport. Hopefully it will be a true thorough review of the options, the costs and complexities.

https://www.amny.com/transit/port-authority-consult-outside-experts-airtrain/

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