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32andBelow wrote:jfklganyc wrote:N62NA wrote:
Exactly. Which is what they do (and then actually tunnel for a bit to clear the runways) for LAX 25R/L.
Just tunnel under the Grand Central at that point for the remaining mile or so to the main terminal. Plenty of room between 23rd Ave and the Grand Central at that spot. This is not rocket science.
They just cant do it in NY. The laws and regulations, the strong union rules make a project of this magnitude unworkable and impossible. The net result is a tunnel that will cost billions and you taking a cab from LGA 20 years from now
That is what is missing in this thread: people Misunderstand NY and its politics.
This train route is the best route because it is the only acceptable (no litigation), viable (cost effective) route possible.
It touches no houses. It is near nothing or no one, so there is little resistance. It runs over parkland, a marina, a highway, and a baseball stadium parking lot. All of which are in various states of decay. The project throws money at each of these things to make it more palatable.
This is a microcosm of why great things arent done in New York anymore. For great infrastructure projects in the US, you need to go to places like Florida, where a high speed rail is being built alongside 30 miles of the Route 528 to a huge new station at MCO. No fanfare, no endless studies, no litigation, no cost re estimates…they proposed it, they are building it, you will be riding it soon. End of story. Things like that no longer happen in NY State. it is just too hard
Wow easy saying citi field is in decay.
GalaxyFlyer wrote:Florida’s infrastructure is miles ahead of anything in the Northeast. NIMBYism is common, NYC just puts on steroids and a very high bar is set.
jfklganyc wrote:GalaxyFlyer wrote:Florida’s infrastructure is miles ahead of anything in the Northeast. NIMBYism is common, NYC just puts on steroids and a very high bar is set.
The future could be built there...NYC is living on trains from a century ago
flyingclrs727 wrote:jfklganyc wrote:GalaxyFlyer wrote:Florida’s infrastructure is miles ahead of anything in the Northeast. NIMBYism is common, NYC just puts on steroids and a very high bar is set.
The future could be built there...NYC is living on trains from a century ago
My aunt's step son is one of the engineers designing that system. He was showing me a video of a prefabricated tunnel being installed hydraulically under an existing roadway.
2eng2efficient wrote:flyingclrs727 wrote:jfklganyc wrote:
The future could be built there...NYC is living on trains from a century ago
My aunt's step son is one of the engineers designing that system. He was showing me a video of a prefabricated tunnel being installed hydraulically under an existing roadway.
Ironically the technique of inserting prefabricated tunnels into the ground is basically how the PATH tunnels under the Hudson River were built over a hundred years ago.
What’s changed today is less about technology and more about bureaucracy and politics.
That Florida can get innovative public transportation projects done faster than NY/NJ is interesting… Perhaps PANYNJ should take notes.
GalaxyFlyer wrote:Florida’s infrastructure is miles ahead of anything in the Northeast. NIMBYism is common, NYC just puts on steroids and a very high bar is set.
Brickell305 wrote:GalaxyFlyer wrote:Florida’s infrastructure is miles ahead of anything in the Northeast. NIMBYism is common, NYC just puts on steroids and a very high bar is set.
I’ll take your word for it as I’m not that familiar with northeastern infrastructure. However, I’m at a total loss as to where that great infrastructure is here.
Public transportation is a perennial joke here. They’ve been “working on a solution” for local MetroRail since I was born. And in those thirty some odd years, the only addition has been to add one line. None of the many other promises have been fulfilled.
Our roadways are overcrowded and in need of repair. Within the last few years, we’ve literally had a major pedestrian bridge collapse on to moving traffic.
I think the history of airport renovation in Florida, Miami in particular, has been well documented here on A. Net.
Even basic running water has been an issue in recent times with pipes bursting and spilling sewage everywhere.
I don’t know what’s happening in the Northeast but if we’re doing better than what’s happening there, I pray for them.
https://amp.usatoday.com/amp/2449316001
https://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/brow ... utType=amp
https://www.miamitodaynews.com/2021/02/ ... -derailed/
https://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/new ... ansit.html
Brickell305 wrote:GalaxyFlyer wrote:Florida’s infrastructure is miles ahead of anything in the Northeast. NIMBYism is common, NYC just puts on steroids and a very high bar is set.
I’ll take your word for it as I’m not that familiar with northeastern infrastructure. However, I’m at a total loss as to where that great infrastructure is here.
Public transportation is a perennial joke here. They’ve been “working on a solution” for local MetroRail since I was born. And in those thirty some odd years, the only addition has been to add one line. None of the many other promises have been fulfilled.
Our roadways are overcrowded and in need of repair. Within the last few years, we’ve literally had a major pedestrian bridge collapse on to moving traffic.
I think the history of airport renovation in Florida, Miami in particular, has been well documented here on A. Net.
Even basic running water has been an issue in recent times with pipes bursting and spilling sewage everywhere.
I don’t know what’s happening in the Northeast but if we’re doing better than what’s happening there, I pray for them.
https://amp.usatoday.com/amp/2449316001
https://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/brow ... utType=amp
https://www.miamitodaynews.com/2021/02/ ... -derailed/
https://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/new ... ansit.html
smokeybandit wrote:Why does the FAA even have to approve this?
smokeybandit wrote:Why does the FAA even have to approve this?
BAINY3 wrote:aemoreira1981 wrote:Also, the MTA wouldn’t want that competing with its M60 BRT service to LaGuardia,
The MTA also runs the subway though so why would this matter? It's also not a for-profit organization (even though they charge fares).
STT757 wrote:smokeybandit wrote:Why does the FAA even have to approve this?
Because they're using PFC's to fund the project, that's within the realm of the FAA's authority.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passenger_facility_charge
CRJockey wrote:BAINY3 wrote:aemoreira1981 wrote:Also, the MTA wouldn’t want that competing with its M60 BRT service to LaGuardia,
The MTA also runs the subway though so why would this matter? It's also not a for-profit organization (even though they charge fares).
Isn’t that basically communism?
N62NA wrote:jfklganyc wrote:They just cant do it in NY. The laws and regulations, the strong union rules make a project of this magnitude unworkable and impossible. The net result is a tunnel that will cost billions and you taking a cab from LGA 20 years from now
That is what is missing in this thread: people Misunderstand NY and its politics.
This train route is the best route because it is the only acceptable (no litigation), viable (cost effective) route possible.
It touches no houses. It is near nothing or no one, so there is little resistance. It runs over parkland, a marina, a highway, and a baseball stadium parking lot. All of which are in various states of decay. The project throws money at each of these things to make it more palatable.
This is a microcosm of why great things arent done in New York anymore. For great infrastructure projects in the US, you need to go to places like Florida, where a high speed rail is being built alongside 30 miles of the Route 528 to a huge new station at MCO. No fanfare, no endless studies, no litigation, no cost re estimates…they proposed it, they are building it, you will be riding it soon. End of story. Things like that no longer happen in NY State. it is just too hard
Oh, I know what I proposed can't be done in NY. Grew up in northern NJ and lived in NYC from 1986 - 2003, so I am very familiar with the problems - and the causes - up there.
For all the reasons you listed above, which I agree with, NY/NYC is a disaster. I really don't understand why people continue to live there if they don't absolutely have to.
Signed.. A happy resident of Florida since 2003.
max999 wrote:N62NA wrote:jfklganyc wrote:They just cant do it in NY. The laws and regulations, the strong union rules make a project of this magnitude unworkable and impossible. The net result is a tunnel that will cost billions and you taking a cab from LGA 20 years from now
That is what is missing in this thread: people Misunderstand NY and its politics.
This train route is the best route because it is the only acceptable (no litigation), viable (cost effective) route possible.
It touches no houses. It is near nothing or no one, so there is little resistance. It runs over parkland, a marina, a highway, and a baseball stadium parking lot. All of which are in various states of decay. The project throws money at each of these things to make it more palatable.
This is a microcosm of why great things arent done in New York anymore. For great infrastructure projects in the US, you need to go to places like Florida, where a high speed rail is being built alongside 30 miles of the Route 528 to a huge new station at MCO. No fanfare, no endless studies, no litigation, no cost re estimates…they proposed it, they are building it, you will be riding it soon. End of story. Things like that no longer happen in NY State. it is just too hard
Oh, I know what I proposed can't be done in NY. Grew up in northern NJ and lived in NYC from 1986 - 2003, so I am very familiar with the problems - and the causes - up there.
For all the reasons you listed above, which I agree with, NY/NYC is a disaster. I really don't understand why people continue to live there if they don't absolutely have to.
Signed.. A happy resident of Florida since 2003.
If lawsuit-free and low impact is best way to build in New York, then I propose a bus terminal for LGA with dedicated express airport bus routes (no local bus stops) going to regional hubs. This solution does not require tunneling, no building elevated train lines, and avoids lawsuits from NIMBYs. Public transit to LGA does not need to be a train!
kalvado wrote:max999 wrote:N62NA wrote:
Oh, I know what I proposed can't be done in NY. Grew up in northern NJ and lived in NYC from 1986 - 2003, so I am very familiar with the problems - and the causes - up there.
For all the reasons you listed above, which I agree with, NY/NYC is a disaster. I really don't understand why people continue to live there if they don't absolutely have to.
Signed.. A happy resident of Florida since 2003.
If lawsuit-free and low impact is best way to build in New York, then I propose a bus terminal for LGA with dedicated express airport bus routes (no local bus stops) going to regional hubs. This solution does not require tunneling, no building elevated train lines, and avoids lawsuits from NIMBYs. Public transit to LGA does not need to be a train!
What would be the on-time performance of such a solution? My experience with NYC traffic is less than perfect
max999 wrote:Yes traffic congestion could be a problem. But that can be mitigated with frequent bus service (a bus every 15 min).
petertenthije wrote:max999 wrote:Yes traffic congestion could be a problem. But that can be mitigated with frequent bus service (a bus every 15 min).
Your solution to traffic congestion is to throw in even more traffic...?
max999 wrote:petertenthije wrote:max999 wrote:Yes traffic congestion could be a problem. But that can be mitigated with frequent bus service (a bus every 15 min).
Your solution to traffic congestion is to throw in even more traffic...?
One bus that carries 50 people every 15 min is not going to create congestion. Hundreds of single passenger cars every 15 minutes on a highway creates congestion
kalvado wrote:max999 wrote:petertenthije wrote:Your solution to traffic congestion is to throw in even more traffic...?
One bus that carries 50 people every 15 min is not going to create congestion. Hundreds of single passenger cars every 15 minutes on a highway creates congestion
One can argue a lot about buses improving or hindering traffic flow; but we're talking about 100k passenger boardings a day
mere 25K of that going by bus means 500-1000 buses a day. That is 1 bus a minute during busy times - and that is a non-starter.
a train can easily have 500-1000 seats and so possibly make a difference.
max999 wrote:kalvado wrote:max999 wrote:
One bus that carries 50 people every 15 min is not going to create congestion. Hundreds of single passenger cars every 15 minutes on a highway creates congestion
One can argue a lot about buses improving or hindering traffic flow; but we're talking about 100k passenger boardings a day
mere 25K of that going by bus means 500-1000 buses a day. That is 1 bus a minute during busy times - and that is a non-starter.
a train can easily have 500-1000 seats and so possibly make a difference.
Your assuming all 100k boardings per day will be all by train, which is unrealistic. Your estimations don't make sense
Ideally you would have both direct train and express bus service, which many airports in the rest of the world have. But I'm just saying considering the lawsuits from Nimbys and the enormous constructions costs in New York, buses are a realistic and cost effective solution.
Mat1776 wrote:For me, without detailed knowledge of construction costs vs. benefits, it seems to be much easier to just dig a deep tunnel from Sunnyside Yard directly to La Guardia completely avoiding the NIMBY issues, and allow direct connection to both Penn Station and Grand Central Terminal.
alfa164 wrote:Mat1776 wrote:For me, without detailed knowledge of construction costs vs. benefits, it seems to be much easier to just dig a deep tunnel from Sunnyside Yard directly to La Guardia completely avoiding the NIMBY issues, and allow direct connection to both Penn Station and Grand Central Terminal.
Elon Musk and his "Boring Company" would probably gladly offer their solution. I would be a giant publicity win for him, if he could pull it off.
alfa164 wrote:Mat1776 wrote:For me, without detailed knowledge of construction costs vs. benefits, it seems to be much easier to just dig a deep tunnel from Sunnyside Yard directly to La Guardia completely avoiding the NIMBY issues, and allow direct connection to both Penn Station and Grand Central Terminal.
Elon Musk and his "Boring Company" would probably gladly offer their solution. I would be a giant publicity win for him, if he could pull it off.
kalvado wrote:max999 wrote:kalvado wrote:One can argue a lot about buses improving or hindering traffic flow; but we're talking about 100k passenger boardings a day
mere 25K of that going by bus means 500-1000 buses a day. That is 1 bus a minute during busy times - and that is a non-starter.
a train can easily have 500-1000 seats and so possibly make a difference.
Your assuming all 100k boardings per day will be all by train, which is unrealistic. Your estimations don't make sense
Ideally you would have both direct train and express bus service, which many airports in the rest of the world have. But I'm just saying considering the lawsuits from Nimbys and the enormous constructions costs in New York, buses are a realistic and cost effective solution.
I assume a quarter of boarding will be by train, which is pretty realistic if that becomes a convenient option.
alfa164 wrote:Mat1776 wrote:For me, without detailed knowledge of construction costs vs. benefits, it seems to be much easier to just dig a deep tunnel from Sunnyside Yard directly to La Guardia completely avoiding the NIMBY issues, and allow direct connection to both Penn Station and Grand Central Terminal.
Elon Musk and his "Boring Company" would probably gladly offer their solution. I would be a giant publicity win for him, if he could pull it off.
max999 wrote:kalvado wrote:max999 wrote:
Your assuming all 100k boardings per day will be all by train, which is unrealistic. Your estimations don't make sense
Ideally you would have both direct train and express bus service, which many airports in the rest of the world have. But I'm just saying considering the lawsuits from Nimbys and the enormous constructions costs in New York, buses are a realistic and cost effective solution.
I assume a quarter of boarding will be by train, which is pretty realistic if that becomes a convenient option.
You're right, I misread your message.
My point about the feasibility of the bus solution still stands.
Ziyulu wrote:Why would this have to go through FAA since it is ground transportation?
Ziyulu wrote:Why would this have to go through FAA since it is ground transportation?
ytib wrote:Ziyulu wrote:Why would this have to go through FAA since it is ground transportation?
They want to use PFC for funding.
Ziyulu wrote:ytib wrote:Ziyulu wrote:Why would this have to go through FAA since it is ground transportation?
They want to use PFC for funding.
This is misuse of funding in my opinion. Not everyone uses this ground transportation.
Ziyulu wrote:This is misuse of funding in my opinion. Not everyone uses this ground transportation.
kalvado wrote:max999 wrote:N62NA wrote:
Oh, I know what I proposed can't be done in NY. Grew up in northern NJ and lived in NYC from 1986 - 2003, so I am very familiar with the problems - and the causes - up there.
For all the reasons you listed above, which I agree with, NY/NYC is a disaster. I really don't understand why people continue to live there if they don't absolutely have to.
Signed.. A happy resident of Florida since 2003.
If lawsuit-free and low impact is best way to build in New York, then I propose a bus terminal for LGA with dedicated express airport bus routes (no local bus stops) going to regional hubs. This solution does not require tunneling, no building elevated train lines, and avoids lawsuits from NIMBYs. Public transit to LGA does not need to be a train!
What would be the on-time performance of such a solution? My experience with NYC traffic is less than perfect
N62NA wrote:jfklganyc wrote:They just cant do it in NY. The laws and regulations, the strong union rules make a project of this magnitude unworkable and impossible. The net result is a tunnel that will cost billions and you taking a cab from LGA 20 years from now
That is what is missing in this thread: people Misunderstand NY and its politics.
This train route is the best route because it is the only acceptable (no litigation), viable (cost effective) route possible.
It touches no houses. It is near nothing or no one, so there is little resistance. It runs over parkland, a marina, a highway, and a baseball stadium parking lot. All of which are in various states of decay. The project throws money at each of these things to make it more palatable.
This is a microcosm of why great things arent done in New York anymore. For great infrastructure projects in the US, you need to go to places like Florida, where a high speed rail is being built alongside 30 miles of the Route 528 to a huge new station at MCO. No fanfare, no endless studies, no litigation, no cost re estimates…they proposed it, they are building it, you will be riding it soon. End of story. Things like that no longer happen in NY State. it is just too hard
Oh, I know what I proposed can't be done in NY. Grew up in northern NJ and lived in NYC from 1986 - 2003, so I am very familiar with the problems - and the causes - up there.
For all the reasons you listed above, which I agree with, NY/NYC is a disaster. I really don't understand why people continue to live there if they don't absolutely have to.
Signed.. A happy resident of Florida since 2003.
blockski wrote:One reason airport transit in the US is so bad and incoherent is because of the FAA's old rules about PFC use. Those rules basically required the kind of separate AirTrain type services rather than coherent integration into local transit systems.
The good news is that the FAA recently revised those rules, recognizing that they made little sense. Here's a good summary article: https://www.vice.com/en/article/z3v5j3/ ... ppy-trains
Anyway, the LGA project was poorly conceived and basically retroactively planned to fit what the Governor wanted. It's a bit of a farce that will lead to a bad project. Good background on that here: https://secondavenuesagas.com/2020/01/0 ... -airtrain/
STT757 wrote:blockski wrote:One reason airport transit in the US is so bad and incoherent is because of the FAA's old rules about PFC use. Those rules basically required the kind of separate AirTrain type services rather than coherent integration into local transit systems.
The good news is that the FAA recently revised those rules, recognizing that they made little sense. Here's a good summary article: https://www.vice.com/en/article/z3v5j3/ ... ppy-trains
Anyway, the LGA project was poorly conceived and basically retroactively planned to fit what the Governor wanted. It's a bit of a farce that will lead to a bad project. Good background on that here: https://secondavenuesagas.com/2020/01/0 ... -airtrain/
That's what is really driving this push to reconsider the LGA Airtrain, the former rule regarding PFC's and public transit has been changed. You no longer need "Airtrains" to connect airports to public transit, you can use PFC's to connect the airports directly.
http://blog.tstc.org/2021/02/24/subway-to-laguardia-made-possible-by-faa-rule-change/
There are some really good examples of what bringing transit directly to an airport can look like:
Philadelphia is probably the best example of an airport with a solid Regional rail connection. DCA is probably the best example of an airport with a direct transit connection. A big reason why airports like JFK, EWR, OAK etc.. went with the Airtrain's is the PFC. If airports didn't have the PFC's to tap into they would have to have those projects compete for transit funds with other projects. In a City and State like NY why would you spend any local / Federal transit funds ,which are scarce to begin with, on a transit connection to an airport which would be overwhelmingly utilized by out of towners. That would be political malpractice when there are travelers on Subways literally jammed in with each other , or commuters who have to stand on their NJ Transit/LIRR commuter trains for over an hour because there's no available seats.
Extending the N train is the best option from LaGuardia, the line literally runs down the spine of Manhattan hitting all the major business and tourist spots (Upper East Side, Central Park South, Times Square, Herald Square, 14th Street Union Square, NYU, SOHO, Chinatown, Downtown Brooklyn etc..). The 7 train just runs across 42nd street.
https://new.mta.info/map/5256
blockski wrote:STT757 wrote:blockski wrote:One reason airport transit in the US is so bad and incoherent is because of the FAA's old rules about PFC use. Those rules basically required the kind of separate AirTrain type services rather than coherent integration into local transit systems.
The good news is that the FAA recently revised those rules, recognizing that they made little sense. Here's a good summary article: https://www.vice.com/en/article/z3v5j3/ ... ppy-trains
Anyway, the LGA project was poorly conceived and basically retroactively planned to fit what the Governor wanted. It's a bit of a farce that will lead to a bad project. Good background on that here: https://secondavenuesagas.com/2020/01/0 ... -airtrain/
That's what is really driving this push to reconsider the LGA Airtrain, the former rule regarding PFC's and public transit has been changed. You no longer need "Airtrains" to connect airports to public transit, you can use PFC's to connect the airports directly.
http://blog.tstc.org/2021/02/24/subway-to-laguardia-made-possible-by-faa-rule-change/
There are some really good examples of what bringing transit directly to an airport can look like:
Philadelphia is probably the best example of an airport with a solid Regional rail connection. DCA is probably the best example of an airport with a direct transit connection. A big reason why airports like JFK, EWR, OAK etc.. went with the Airtrain's is the PFC. If airports didn't have the PFC's to tap into they would have to have those projects compete for transit funds with other projects. In a City and State like NY why would you spend any local / Federal transit funds ,which are scarce to begin with, on a transit connection to an airport which would be overwhelmingly utilized by out of towners. That would be political malpractice when there are travelers on Subways literally jammed in with each other , or commuters who have to stand on their NJ Transit/LIRR commuter trains for over an hour because there's no available seats.
Extending the N train is the best option from LaGuardia, the line literally runs down the spine of Manhattan hitting all the major business and tourist spots (Upper East Side, Central Park South, Times Square, Herald Square, 14th Street Union Square, NYU, SOHO, Chinatown, Downtown Brooklyn etc..). The 7 train just runs across 42nd street.
https://new.mta.info/map/5256
Yes - DCA has one of the best transit connections in the US. And it's exactly the kind of service the old FAA rules wouldn't allow, since the service runs through.
And that experience is part of the reason the rule has changed. When planning the WMATA Silver Line to Dulles, MWAA didn't want to have the line terminate at Dulles (and potentially force the airport into a park and ride role), and the yard location basically required extending beyond IAD's terminal anyway. But because the line was extending through the airport, the FAA only allowed PFC funds to be used on the physical station itself (since that would be exclusively for airport workers/passengers) but not any of the guideway or connections to and from that station.
Extending the N from Astoria to LGA would be an obvious project. It's still got a lot of challenges; NIMBY opposition for extending an elevated train was part of the reason this concept died previously. But it makes too much sense.
If LGA did want a separate AirTrain system for whatever reason, sending it to Woodside/Jackson Heights makes far more sense - more transit connections there to both the subway network and more LIRR services.
STT757 wrote:With the new infrastructure deal now is the perfect time to reassess the Airtrain in favor of a direct N train Subway connection. They can utilize both PFCs and transit funds.