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JerseyFlyer
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DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:27 pm

DL had earlier announced a triangular schedule Atlanta / Johannesburg / Cape Town / Atlanta. This prompted a debate on this forum (thread now locked) as to whether the "real" reason for adding Cape Town was that the A350 could not make JNB to ATL without unacceptable weight penalties.

It seems the CPT stop will no longer be scheduled, so DL must be satisfied with their A350's performance JNB - ATL after all (at least for the higher-MTOW examples in their fleet).

"Delta Air Lines has announced its return to South Africa this August. However, the airline will only serve Johannesburg and has axed its plans to serve the Atlanta-Johannesburg-Cape Town-Atlanta triangle route. Instead, using an Airbus A350-900 will serve Atlanta to Johannesburg nonstop and fly its longest nonstop flight."

https://simpleflying.com/delta-cape-town-drop/
 
FromCDGtoSYD
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:38 pm

Makes sense, triangle routes will be less and less attractive as things go back to normal, especially if competitors go for non-stop.

I wonder what the numbers look like for the A350 then, its really a testament to the aircraft's capabilities if it can perform duties that were once exclusive to the LR.

With UA biting into DL's lunch, I'd like them to expand more in the continent. Maybe add ATL-CPT or JFK-JNB.
 
alfa164
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Sat Jun 19, 2021 3:16 pm

FromCDGtoSYD wrote:
Makes sense, triangle routes will be less and less attractive as things go back to normal, especially if competitors go for non-stop. I wonder what the numbers look like for the A350 then, its really a testament to the aircraft's capabilities if it can perform duties that were once exclusive to the LR. With UA biting into DL's lunch, I'd like them to expand more in the continent. Maybe add ATL-CPT or JFK-JNB.


I would think JFK-JNB would be a good option - particularly with SA struggling, if not on the ropes already.
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flight152
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Sat Jun 19, 2021 3:31 pm

alfa164 wrote:
FromCDGtoSYD wrote:
Makes sense, triangle routes will be less and less attractive as things go back to normal, especially if competitors go for non-stop. I wonder what the numbers look like for the A350 then, its really a testament to the aircraft's capabilities if it can perform duties that were once exclusive to the LR. With UA biting into DL's lunch, I'd like them to expand more in the continent. Maybe add ATL-CPT or JFK-JNB.


I would think JFK-JNB would be a good option - particularly with SA struggling, if not on the ropes already.

UA is already flying EWR-JNB.
 
alfa164
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Sat Jun 19, 2021 3:37 pm

flight152 wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
FromCDGtoSYD wrote:
Makes sense, triangle routes will be less and less attractive as things go back to normal, especially if competitors go for non-stop. I wonder what the numbers look like for the A350 then, its really a testament to the aircraft's capabilities if it can perform duties that were once exclusive to the LR. With UA biting into DL's lunch, I'd like them to expand more in the continent. Maybe add ATL-CPT or JFK-JNB.


I would think JFK-JNB would be a good option - particularly with SA struggling, if not on the ropes already.

UA is already flying EWR-JNB.


I think we all know that already.
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I have decided to be cremated....
 
flight152
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Sat Jun 19, 2021 3:42 pm

alfa164 wrote:
flight152 wrote:
alfa164 wrote:

I would think JFK-JNB would be a good option - particularly with SA struggling, if not on the ropes already.

UA is already flying EWR-JNB.


I think we all know that already.


If you already knew that, then it would be pretty obvious ATL would be a better option for that flight, considering the massive feed and lack of competition.
 
TW870
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Sat Jun 19, 2021 3:56 pm

Do the A350s that SQ uses on the US-SIN routes have an extra fuel tank, or is it just a performance bump for increased gross weight? I am curious as to whether Delta can buy a performance bump from Airbus and Rolls-Royce to make the numbers work better on the westbound leg.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Sat Jun 19, 2021 4:08 pm

TW870 wrote:
Do the A350s that SQ uses on the US-SIN routes have an extra fuel tank, or is it just a performance bump for increased gross weight? I am curious as to whether Delta can buy a performance bump from Airbus and Rolls-Royce to make the numbers work better on the westbound leg.


I’ve not seen specific numbers for the 350, but generally the limiting factor out of JNB is tire speed. Once you get off the ground it’s not a terribly difficult place operationally. That’s a much harder issue to solve than engine/airframe performance.
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9252fly
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Sat Jun 19, 2021 4:14 pm

alfa164 wrote:
FromCDGtoSYD wrote:
Makes sense, triangle routes will be less and less attractive as things go back to normal, especially if competitors go for non-stop. I wonder what the numbers look like for the A350 then, its really a testament to the aircraft's capabilities if it can perform duties that were once exclusive to the LR. With UA biting into DL's lunch, I'd like them to expand more in the continent. Maybe add ATL-CPT or JFK-JNB.


I would think JFK-JNB would be a good option - particularly with SA struggling, if not on the ropes already.


SA will not return to any long haul international flying for the foreseeable future, if ever. At the moment they are not flying at all and may attempt to restart domestic flights in August. If they are successful, they will then add flights to neighboring and Sub-Saharan countries over the next few years.
 
alfa164
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Sat Jun 19, 2021 4:44 pm

flight152 wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
flight152 wrote:
UA is already flying EWR-JNB.

I think we all know that already.

If you already knew that, then it would be pretty obvious ATL would be a better option for that flight, considering the massive feed and lack of competition.


If you included the original post,- which you conveniently omitted - you would see the comment:

FromCDGtoSYD wrote:
With UA biting into DL's lunch, I'd like them to expand more in the continent. Maybe add ATL-CPT or JFK-JNB.


Nobody is suggesting taking the ATL flight away; instead, the possibility of adding JFK-JNB is the option being discussed. SA may or may not be able to continue their JFK-JNB flight - and even if they continue, confidence in their future may chase customers away.

Ergo, DL to JNB from JFK looks like it could be a good option.
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Heavierthanair
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:11 pm

G'day

With the Delta A350 apparently struggling to make JNB-ATL how much of a payload hit is the UA 787 taking? Anyone out there with payload range comparisons for this trip?

Thanks and Cheers

Peter
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." (Albert Einstein, 1879 - 1955)
 
x1234
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:16 pm

There's UA competition on EWR-JNB. Competition forced DL's hand. I would like to see UA's data on JNB-EWR on the 789.
 
majano
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:32 pm

JerseyFlyer wrote:
DL had earlier announced a triangular schedule Atlanta / Johannesburg / Cape Town / Atlanta. This prompted a debate on this forum (thread now locked) as to whether the "real" reason for adding Cape Town was that the A350 could not make JNB to ATL without unacceptable weight penalties.

The problem here was people taking disparate data points and inferring some sort of correlation. There were a few who argued that the addition of Cape Town may be for other reasons, but those were drowned out. I think west-bound flights will have restrictions, but the A350 has such a payload advantage over previous generation aircraft that the restricted weight might mean full cabins and some cargo on most days.
 
rutankrd
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:33 pm

FromCDGtoSYD wrote:
Makes sense, triangle routes will be less and less attractive as things go back to normal, especially if competitors go for non-stop.

I wonder what the numbers look like for the A350 then, its really a testament to the aircraft's capabilities if it can perform duties that were once exclusive to the LR.

With UA biting into DL's lunch, I'd like them to expand more in the continent. Maybe add ATL-CPT or JFK-JNB.

Prey tell what competitors?

South African are bankrupt and United operate into Newark Competition ???..
 
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FLALEFTY
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Sat Jun 19, 2021 6:11 pm

Bummer...I would have loved to been able to nip up to ATL and have single-plane service from ATL to CPT and back. I understand that Cape Town is a cool place to visit.
 
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Polot
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Sat Jun 19, 2021 6:24 pm

rutankrd wrote:
FromCDGtoSYD wrote:
Makes sense, triangle routes will be less and less attractive as things go back to normal, especially if competitors go for non-stop.

I wonder what the numbers look like for the A350 then, its really a testament to the aircraft's capabilities if it can perform duties that were once exclusive to the LR.

With UA biting into DL's lunch, I'd like them to expand more in the continent. Maybe add ATL-CPT or JFK-JNB.

Prey tell what competitors?

South African are bankrupt and United operate into Newark Competition ???..

UA are still a competitor. Not everyone on the flight is originating/terminating in ATL (and likewise with UA and New York). ATL-JNB is better competition against a EWR flight when it lacks a CPT stop on the return.
Last edited by Polot on Sat Jun 19, 2021 6:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
qm001
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Sat Jun 19, 2021 6:27 pm

alfa164 wrote:
I would think JFK-JNB would be a good option - particularly with SA struggling, if not on the ropes already.


With everything I've read in the press lately regarding SA, its hard to believe that will be back, ever. South Africa will never be able to remove politicians hands from her pockets, so time to accelerate the decline. Very saddening, but no surprise at all.
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LAX772LR
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:21 pm

Um, did anyone bother to actually check.... because the CPT stop is very much still there.

They aren't however selling CPT as a destination via JNB (but via AMS and LHR), so they don't mention it in this P.R.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
xcltflyboy
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:23 pm

Can someone explain what improvements DL's 359s have that make this nonstop route doable? Or, is it just the 359's general capabilities? Said another way, were DL's 359s modified for this specific mission?
 
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:43 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
Um, did anyone bother to actually check.... because the CPT stop is very much still there.

They aren't however selling CPT as a destination via JNB (but via AMS and LHR), so they don't mention it in this P.R.

Are you suggesting Simple Flying posted a deceptive click bait article?

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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:45 pm

xcltflyboy wrote:
Can someone explain what improvements DL's 359s have that make this nonstop route doable? Or, is it just the 359's general capabilities? Said another way, were DL's 359s modified for this specific mission?

When DL first took delivery of their A359s, they were at 268tonne MTOW.

But today, most ships have been retroactively upgraded to 275tonne MTOW (the same weight that SQ used to launch SIN-SFO, though with a liter config), and ships N512DN and above have 280tonne MTOWs (same as offered by the SQ A359ULRs, though without fuel or cargo modifications).
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
Cubsrule
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:59 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
xcltflyboy wrote:
Can someone explain what improvements DL's 359s have that make this nonstop route doable? Or, is it just the 359's general capabilities? Said another way, were DL's 359s modified for this specific mission?

When DL first took delivery of their A359s, they were at 268tonne MTOW.

But today, most ships have been retroactively upgraded to 275tonne MTOW (the same weight that SQ used to launch SIN-SFO, though with a liter config), and ships N512DN and above have 280tonne MTOWs (same as offered by the SQ A359ULRs, though without fuel or cargo modifications).


Those are just paper upgrades, though, right? If so, they help range but not so much runway performance (indeed, if you add 5 tonnes with no changes, that will HARM runway performance).
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LAX772LR
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:01 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
xcltflyboy wrote:
Can someone explain what improvements DL's 359s have that make this nonstop route doable? Or, is it just the 359's general capabilities? Said another way, were DL's 359s modified for this specific mission?

When DL first took delivery of their A359s, they were at 268tonne MTOW.

But today, most ships have been retroactively upgraded to 275tonne MTOW (the same weight that SQ used to launch SIN-SFO, though with a liter config), and ships N512DN and above have 280tonne MTOWs (same as offered by the SQ A359ULRs, though without fuel or cargo modifications).


Those are just paper upgrades, though, right? If so, they help range but not so much runway performance (indeed, if you add 5 tonnes with no changes, that will HARM runway performance).

Yes and no. The 275tonne birds cannot go higher, as they lack the wing-twist, modified winglets, modified empennage, and lightened doors and other structures that accompany the MTOW raise in the 280tonne birds.

That said, the problem with JNB isn't range, it's tire speed-- you'll likely exceed your tire rating before you get off the ground.
Even the 772LRs faced that problem, which is why DL/Boeing/Goodyear worked together to get a custom build certified for high-altitude ops like JNB.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
panamair
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:07 pm

The PR shows the following schedule now for JNB-ATL:
Dep JNB 1055pm Arr ATL 915am+1

The previous schedule with the CPT stop was:
Dep JNB 530pm Arr ATL 715am+1

The above flight schedule would indicate that the CPT stop has been eliminated and that JNB-ATL is planned to be nonstop. Also the Flight schedules on delta.com now show DL201 JNB-ATL in August to be nonstop with a 16h20m flight time
 
airbazar
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:10 pm

"this August" is Winter in South Africa. Combine that with light loads due to Pandemic travel restrictions and it's not surprising the plane can make it back non-stop. We'll see what happens when travel restrictions end and Winter turns to Summer.
 
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:14 pm

panamair wrote:
It’s “schedule change Saturday” at Delta; they have zeroed out all inventory for DL201 for now while they load the new revised flight schedule. Should be available for booking by tomorrow.

Nice!

Statement retracted then! Mea culpa.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
Boof02671
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:40 pm

TW870 wrote:
Do the A350s that SQ uses on the US-SIN routes have an extra fuel tank, or is it just a performance bump for increased gross weight? I am curious as to whether Delta can buy a performance bump from Airbus and Rolls-Royce to make the numbers work better on the westbound leg.

Yes it’s an A350-900 ULR.

“ The biggest difference between the standard A350-900 and the ULR is its range. Airbus managed to cram an additional 6,300 gallons of fuel into the plane's tanks. The result is an increase in range from 9,300 miles to as much as 11,100 miles.

https://www.businessinsider.com/airbus- ... 018-10?amp


The A350-900ULR – derived from the A350-900 – has an extended range of up to 9,700 nautical miles. This was achieved by integrating a modified fuel system, which increases the aircraft’s fuel carrying capacity by 24,000 litres without the need for additional fuel tanks.

With a maximum take-off weight (MTOW) of 280 tonnes, the A350-900ULR is capable of flying over 20 hours non-stop, combining the highest levels of passenger and crew comfort with unbeatable economics for such distances.”

https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/news/en ... tance.html
 
jayunited
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:00 pm

FromCDGtoSYD wrote:
Makes sense, triangle routes will be less and less attractive as things go back to normal, especially if competitors go for non-stop.

I wonder what the numbers look like for the A350 then, its really a testament to the aircraft's capabilities if it can perform duties that were once exclusive to the LR.

With UA biting into DL's lunch, I'd like them to expand more in the continent. Maybe add ATL-CPT or JFK-JNB.



United is not biting into Delta's lunch United's flight EWR-JNB replaces South African Airways flight.
 
jayunited
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:23 pm

Heavierthanair wrote:
G'day

With the Delta A350 apparently struggling to make JNB-ATL how much of a payload hit is the UA 787 taking? Anyone out there with payload range comparisons for this trip?

Thanks and Cheers

Peter


For a true comparison I would suggest waiting until international travel returns to normal. Right now since the launch UA has been averaging between 193-210 passengers on our 787s out of JNB this is out of a total of 257 seats (total seat count on Polaris equip 789s is different from 789s with the diamond seats). Also for now we are able to carry cargo out of JNB as well. But there are several factors you need to consider first it is winter in South Africa and secondly like I already pointed out with international restrictions which are having an impact on demand.

Looking at the TOW or TOG over the past 7 days UA's TOW is averaging around 545,600. The 789s UA utilizes on this route have a max TOW of 561,500.

For now United isn't pushing these 789s to there limit out of JNB but lets wait until it's summer in the southern hemisphere I have a feeling at the very least we won't be carrying any cargo out of JNB.
 
9252fly
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:40 pm

jayunited wrote:
Heavierthanair wrote:
G'day

With the Delta A350 apparently struggling to make JNB-ATL how much of a payload hit is the UA 787 taking? Anyone out there with payload range comparisons for this trip?

Thanks and Cheers

Peter


For now United isn't pushing these 789s to there limit out of JNB but lets wait until it's summer in the southern hemisphere I have a feeling at the very least we won't be carrying any cargo out of JNB.


Will UA have a greater cargo lift capability out of CPT in the Southern Hemisphere summer, considering the airport is almost at sea level. I was thinking they could truck cargo from JNB to CPT?
 
majano
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:23 pm

9252fly wrote:
jayunited wrote:
Heavierthanair wrote:
G'day

With the Delta A350 apparently struggling to make JNB-ATL how much of a payload hit is the UA 787 taking? Anyone out there with payload range comparisons for this trip?

Thanks and Cheers

Peter


For now United isn't pushing these 789s to there limit out of JNB but lets wait until it's summer in the southern hemisphere I have a feeling at the very least we won't be carrying any cargo out of JNB.


Will UA have a greater cargo lift capability out of CPT in the Southern Hemisphere summer, considering the airport is almost at sea level. I was thinking they could truck cargo from JNB to CPT?

If United is losing only seven metric tons from MTOW out of JNB then I would say the 787 is doing very well. As Jayunited suggests, things may change in the summer months.
 
jbs2886
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Sun Jun 20, 2021 12:14 am

Polot wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Polot wrote:
Except the flight times given (10:55pm departure, 9:15am arrival next day, all times locals) match up with a nonstop flight. For comparison the old nonstop on the 77L left at 7:55p and arrived at 6:45 am.

And the times are directly from DL PR.

Except as of little more than an hour ago, DL's website was still showing DL201 with a stopover.

Though it's interesting to note: you can't actually book it on their site (nor on Google flights) right now.
DL200 yes, but the return is always via CDG/AMS/LHR.

DL201 is nowhere to be seen. Try it, if you're reading this within the next few minutes.

Interesting.

DL’s reservation system has yet to be updated with the new nonstop return.


Okay that makes sense, I was trying to book, but could never get it. But in flight schedules it looked like the nonstop.
 
777Mech
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Sun Jun 20, 2021 12:26 am

panamair wrote:
The PR shows the following schedule now for JNB-ATL:
Dep JNB 1055pm Arr ATL 915am+1

The previous schedule with the CPT stop was:
Dep JNB 530pm Arr ATL 715am+1

The above flight schedule would indicate that the CPT stop has been eliminated and that JNB-ATL is planned to be nonstop. Also the Flight schedules on delta.com now show DL201 JNB-ATL in August to be nonstop with a 16h20m flight time


It looks like the timing has changed on the flight as it was pre-covid, it now departs JNB at 2255L and arrives ATL at 0915L.

I suspect this change was made to avoid departing at the hottest part of the day in JNB to carry as much payload as possible.
 
AWACSooner
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Sun Jun 20, 2021 3:45 am

FLALEFTY wrote:
Bummer...I would have loved to been able to nip up to ATL and have single-plane service from ATL to CPT and back. I understand that Cape Town is a cool place to visit.

It is a neat place to visit…I was down there for a few days in early May…would highly recommend the city and surrounding areas (especially the Cape of Good Hope area).
 
FromCDGtoSYD
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:18 am

jayunited wrote:
FromCDGtoSYD wrote:
Makes sense, triangle routes will be less and less attractive as things go back to normal, especially if competitors go for non-stop.

I wonder what the numbers look like for the A350 then, its really a testament to the aircraft's capabilities if it can perform duties that were once exclusive to the LR.

With UA biting into DL's lunch, I'd like them to expand more in the continent. Maybe add ATL-CPT or JFK-JNB.



United is not biting into Delta's lunch United's flight EWR-JNB replaces South African Airways flight.


Delta went from being the only US carrier flying to Africa with JNB, LOS, ACC and DSS.
Over the past 2 years UA has added CPT, JNB, LOS and ACC.

Now I believe some of these were served by SAA, but my point is United clearly wants a piece of the very lucrative pie. Of course competition is getting hotter, SAA had no feed in the US whereas DL had the might of it largest hub. UA has big hubs too and they're very aggressive with their expansion, something that shouldn't be ignored. It's very hard to win back customers after losing them.
 
rbavfan
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Sun Jun 20, 2021 7:11 am

rutankrd wrote:
FromCDGtoSYD wrote:
Makes sense, triangle routes will be less and less attractive as things go back to normal, especially if competitors go for non-stop.

I wonder what the numbers look like for the A350 then, its really a testament to the aircraft's capabilities if it can perform duties that were once exclusive to the LR.

With UA biting into DL's lunch, I'd like them to expand more in the continent. Maybe add ATL-CPT or JFK-JNB.

Prey tell what competitors?

South African are bankrupt and United operate into Newark Competition ???..


Yes UA operating into EW is competition. The have huge connection capability at EWR as does Delta in ATL.
 
gloom
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Sun Jun 20, 2021 9:58 am

LAX772LR wrote:
That said, the problem with JNB isn't range, it's tire speed-- you'll likely exceed your tire rating before you get off the ground.
Even the 772LRs faced that problem, which is why DL/Boeing/Goodyear worked together to get a custom build certified for high-altitude ops like JNB.


Not really.

Tire speed was the problem for 777, due to high weight and wing loading (significantly higher takeoff speed). Since 359 is quite a bit lighter, it is simply limited by TOW. Not quite sure if it's limited by takeoff run, or required climb gradient. However, the main reason is "hot and high", which makes up for both higher takeoff speeds, and lower acceleration.

However, on takeoff roll of 359, the tire speed is not a factor, it simply runs off the available runway.

Cheers,
Adam
 
Agent
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Sun Jun 20, 2021 12:02 pm

gloom wrote:
Tire speed was the problem for 777, due to high weight and wing loading (significantly higher takeoff speed). Since 359 is quite a bit lighter, it is simply limited by TOW. Not quite sure if it's limited by takeoff run, or required climb gradient. However, the main reason is "hot and high", which makes up for both higher takeoff speeds, and lower acceleration.


It is limited by either obstacle or brake energy in JNB. Field length and tire speed are no factor.
A350 cannot takeoff with MTOW, 270t-ish should be possible, depending on temperature and PA.
 
Detroit313
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Sun Jun 20, 2021 12:04 pm

It was delusional to think that this would be successful in the first place. Why would anyone choose to make a stop while they can fly non stop to the US from both cities on United for example.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Sun Jun 20, 2021 12:38 pm

Detroit313 wrote:
It was delusional to think that this would be successful in the first place. Why would anyone choose to make a stop while they can fly non stop to the US from both cities on United for example.


There are dozens if not hundreds of cities with better connectivity to ATL than to EWR and the international connection experience is much better at ATL. Those factors more than make up for a stop for many passengers.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Sun Jun 20, 2021 3:36 pm

Agent wrote:
gloom wrote:
Tire speed was the problem for 777, due to high weight and wing loading (significantly higher takeoff speed). Since 359 is quite a bit lighter, it is simply limited by TOW. Not quite sure if it's limited by takeoff run, or required climb gradient. However, the main reason is "hot and high", which makes up for both higher takeoff speeds, and lower acceleration.


It is limited by either obstacle or brake energy in JNB. Field length and tire speed are no factor.
A350 cannot takeoff with MTOW, 270t-ish should be possible, depending on temperature and PA.


Iv been right on max tire speed in the 787. To say that tire speed is not an issue is false.

On a hot day in DEN Iv been well below MTOW and right on Max tire speed.
 
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ElroyJetson
Posts: 966
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Sun Jun 20, 2021 3:58 pm

jayunited wrote:
Heavierthanair wrote:
G'day

With the Delta A350 apparently struggling to make JNB-ATL how much of a payload hit is the UA 787 taking? Anyone out there with payload range comparisons for this trip?

Thanks and Cheers

Peter


For a true comparison I would suggest waiting until international travel returns to normal. Right now since the launch UA has been averaging between 193-210 passengers on our 787s out of JNB this is out of a total of 257 seats (total seat count on Polaris equip 789s is different from 789s with the diamond seats). Also for now we are able to carry cargo out of JNB as well. But there are several factors you need to consider first it is winter in South Africa and secondly like I already pointed out with international restrictions which are having an impact on demand.

Looking at the TOW or TOG over the past 7 days UA's TOW is averaging around 545,600. The 789s UA utilizes on this route have a max TOW of 561,500.

For now United isn't pushing these 789s to there limit out of JNB but lets wait until it's summer in the southern hemisphere I have a feeling at the very least we won't be carrying any cargo out of JNB.


Also EWR-JNB is about 400 nm shorter flight than ATL-JNB. That is roughly 5 tons less fuel UA's 789's have to carry versus the DL flight out of ATL.
 
777luver
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:20 pm

Detroit313 wrote:
It was delusional to think that this would be successful in the first place. Why would anyone choose to make a stop while they can fly non stop to the US from both cities on United for example.


Because airlines don't know what they're doing.....but anetters do.......
 
gloom
Posts: 547
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Sun Jun 20, 2021 6:33 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
On a hot day in DEN Iv been well below MTOW and right on Max tire speed.


A350 would be on (standard) tire limit somewhere around 271t, going at ISA+15/8000ft altitude elevation. Tire limit is then hit, at around 4700m takeoff run.

JNB rwy is 4400m long, 5700ft altitude, ISA+15 usually at time of departure.

That sort of conditions is very rare at JNB. You will always run off the distance first, so the plane is TOW limited, not tire speed limited.

Cheers,
Adam
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 547
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:06 pm

Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Sun Jun 20, 2021 6:39 pm

Tags are expensive and unattractive. Status quo, most long-haul flights are hardly full. Could it merely be that DL cut the CPT stop knowing the loads into the future would be mediocre at best, and thus enabling the 359 to operate nonstop?
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Sun Jun 20, 2021 6:47 pm

gloom wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
On a hot day in DEN Iv been well below MTOW and right on Max tire speed.


A350 would be on (standard) tire limit somewhere around 271t, going at ISA+15/8000ft altitude elevation. Tire limit is then hit, at around 4700m takeoff run.

JNB rwy is 4400m long, 5700ft altitude, ISA+15 usually at time of departure.

That sort of conditions is very rare at JNB. You will always run off the distance first, so the plane is TOW limited, not tire speed limited.

Cheers,
Adam


Not saying you are wrong but I have to ask are you using Ground speed?
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 547
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Sun Jun 20, 2021 7:00 pm

This thread reminds me of the infinite number of discussions we had on why the 359 couldn’t serve LAX-SYD, and that DL was so upset they were about to buy the 787 and toss the 359 to the curb.

Literally tens of thousands of hours went into those discussions. How quickly they were forgotten when DL scheduled the aircraft on the route, even though our resident TechOps expert / Starbucks bartista insisted the president of ops personally assured him it was impossible ...
 
gloom
Posts: 547
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2016 4:24 pm

Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Sun Jun 20, 2021 7:27 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
Not saying you are wrong but I have to ask are you using Ground speed?


Not really. It's all there on ACAPS.

You can easily see where it reaches tire speed since from that moment longer runway does not increase TOW. The plane becomes tire speed limited.

https://www.airbus.com/content/dam/corp ... 0-1000.pdf

I'm using page 160. At the end of 8000ft line, one can see where it hits tire limit.

Cheers,
Adam
 
ASFlyer
Posts: 1824
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 1:25 pm

Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Sun Jun 20, 2021 7:53 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
This thread reminds me of the infinite number of discussions we had on why the 359 couldn’t serve LAX-SYD, and that DL was so upset they were about to buy the 787 and toss the 359 to the curb.

Literally tens of thousands of hours went into those discussions. How quickly they were forgotten when DL scheduled the aircraft on the route, even though our resident TechOps expert / Starbucks bartista insisted the president of ops personally assured him it was impossible ...


This pretty much sums up 90% of the conversations on a.net. Everyone here assumes the big 3 just throw a plane on any particular city pair with little thought or research.
 
Lootess
Posts: 674
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 6:15 am

Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Sun Jun 20, 2021 9:03 pm

jayunited wrote:
FromCDGtoSYD wrote:
Makes sense, triangle routes will be less and less attractive as things go back to normal, especially if competitors go for non-stop.

I wonder what the numbers look like for the A350 then, its really a testament to the aircraft's capabilities if it can perform duties that were once exclusive to the LR.

With UA biting into DL's lunch, I'd like them to expand more in the continent. Maybe add ATL-CPT or JFK-JNB.



United is not biting into Delta's lunch United's flight EWR-JNB replaces South African Airways flight.


Yeah people tend to forget UA was just replacing capacity in the market.

I said during the early days of the pandemic when Delta was considering on returning to JNB, that JFK-JNB would have been a good option if Delta couldn't do ATL-JNB non-stop on the A359 since SAA wasn't returning. But the marbles stayed in-place pretty much and the return of CPT.

Still I have hope that JFK-JNB would be a reality someday, the route is definitely profitable in good times.

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