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majano
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:38 pm

Foks,
This service is up an running again after a few months' hiatus.
https://www.iol.co.za/travel/travel-new ... 3122e075c6
Only three times weekly to start things off.
 
codc10
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Mon Aug 02, 2021 1:19 pm

majano wrote:
Foks,
This service is up an running again after a few months' hiatus.
https://www.iol.co.za/travel/travel-new ... 3122e075c6
Only three times weekly to start things off.


I understand to start JNB-ATL is taking a big payload restriction, and DAL is working to preferentially schedule its 3 (currently) higher gross weight 359s on the route. The earlier frames are limited in the ballpark of 100 seats westbound.

So, DAL pax in the back of the bus on JNB-ATL will no doubt have a pretty spacious ride.
 
x1234
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Mon Aug 02, 2021 1:33 pm

How much is UA blocking on JNB-EWR on the 789? I heard UA applied a Boeing performance package to mitigate the problem. Again, another win for Boeing.
 
panamair
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:54 pm

Interestingly enough, this first flight is being flown with N510DN, which I believe is not one of the later 280t ships.
Flight DL201 JNB-ATL is relatively light in the back tonight so it should not be a problem; in addition, it looks like the eastbound flight is experiencing strong headwinds so the winds may be favorable for tonight’s flight back to ATL…
 
TropicalSky
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:22 pm

guess we're gonna see what the A350 is made of on this route & put the debates to end

codc10 wrote:
majano wrote:
Foks,
This service is up an running again after a few months' hiatus.
https://www.iol.co.za/travel/travel-new ... 3122e075c6
Only three times weekly to start things off.


I understand to start JNB-ATL is taking a big payload restriction, and DAL is working to preferentially schedule its 3 (currently) higher gross weight 359s on the route. The earlier frames are limited in the ballpark of 100 seats westbound.

So, DAL pax in the back of the bus on JNB-ATL will no doubt have a pretty spacious ride.
 
Scotron12
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:44 pm

x1234 wrote:
How much is UA blocking on JNB-EWR on the 789? I heard UA applied a Boeing performance package to mitigate the problem. Again, another win for Boeing.


According to SeatGuru, SAA configuration on their 359s were 28C298Y total 326. No clue what configuration UAL have on their 789s for EWRJNB.

As to DL, they're not stupid, in fact, they're one of the most astute airlines on the planet. They gave up their 777s for a reason in favor of the A359.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:45 pm

TropicalSky wrote:
guess we're gonna see what the A350 is made of on this route & put the debates to end


Only if we see the passenger counts and freight loads for every flight... which we won't.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:26 pm

Scotron12 wrote:
x1234 wrote:
How much is UA blocking on JNB-EWR on the 789? I heard UA applied a Boeing performance package to mitigate the problem. Again, another win for Boeing.


According to SeatGuru, SAA configuration on their 359s were 28C298Y total 326. No clue what configuration UAL have on their 789s for EWRJNB.

As to DL, they're not stupid, in fact, they're one of the most astute airlines on the planet. They gave up their 777s for a reason in favor of the A359.


UA’s B789s have 257 seats (J48W21Y+39Y149). They are more premium heavy.
 
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Polot
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:39 pm

Scotron12 wrote:
As to DL, they're not stupid, in fact, they're one of the most astute airlines on the planet. They gave up their 777s for a reason in favor of the A359.

That doesn’t necessarily mean the A359 will perform as good or better on the route in terms of payload (current A359s will not). Just that as a whole eliminating the 777 fleet was seen as financially wiser than keeping it for one or two routes where it excels.

ATL is about 400 nm further away from JNB than NYC. When you are pushing the performance envelop that extra 400 nm matters a lot. But with current light demand, SA government playing hardball in terms of approving CPT stopover, and UA now flying to the country nonstop you got to work with the cards dealt with and accept payload penalties.
 
codc10
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:54 pm

x1234 wrote:
How much is UA blocking on JNB-EWR on the 789? I heard UA applied a Boeing performance package to mitigate the problem. Again, another win for Boeing.


As far as I can tell, UA is not restricting pax loads most days, and clearing standbys. I doubt they are able to take much freight, if any.
 
jayunited
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:08 pm

codc10 wrote:
x1234 wrote:
How much is UA blocking on JNB-EWR on the 789? I heard UA applied a Boeing performance package to mitigate the problem. Again, another win for Boeing.


As far as I can tell, UA is not restricting pax loads most days, and clearing standbys. I doubt they are able to take much freight, if any.


We are not blocking any rows at this time out of JNB and we also are taking cargo on Saturday July 31st UA 187 JNB-EWR had 13 open seats and we carried a little over 10,000 LBS of cargo. On yesterday Sunday August 1st there were quite a few more open seats we carried nearly 14,000 LBS and we still had weight to spare on both flights.

One thing to keep in mind it is winter in South Africa. Of course the 789 can handle JNB's altitude in the winter, the real test of the 789s power will happen in the summer that is when I expect we will see the 789 stretched to limit and where United more than likely will not be able to carry any cargo out of JNB.
 
9252fly
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:32 pm

jayunited wrote:
codc10 wrote:
x1234 wrote:
How much is UA blocking on JNB-EWR on the 789? I heard UA applied a Boeing performance package to mitigate the problem. Again, another win for Boeing.


As far as I can tell, UA is not restricting pax loads most days, and clearing standbys. I doubt they are able to take much freight, if any.


We are not blocking any rows at this time out of JNB and we also are taking cargo on Saturday July 31st UA 187 JNB-EWR had 13 open seats and we carried a little over 10,000 LBS of cargo. On yesterday Sunday August 1st there were quite a few more open seats we carried nearly 14,000 LBS and we still had weight to spare on both flights.

One thing to keep in mind it is winter in South Africa. Of course the 789 can handle JNB's altitude in the winter, the real test of the 789s power will happen in the summer that is when I expect we will see the 789 stretched to limit and where United more than likely will not be able to carry any cargo out of JNB.


Some airlines have late evening departures out of JNB to help compensate for the higher daytime temperatures. Of course that would change connecting options for passengers connecting onward as well as fleet utilization scheduling..
 
codc10
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:41 pm

jayunited wrote:
codc10 wrote:
x1234 wrote:
How much is UA blocking on JNB-EWR on the 789? I heard UA applied a Boeing performance package to mitigate the problem. Again, another win for Boeing.


As far as I can tell, UA is not restricting pax loads most days, and clearing standbys. I doubt they are able to take much freight, if any.


We are not blocking any rows at this time out of JNB and we also are taking cargo on Saturday July 31st UA 187 JNB-EWR had 13 open seats and we carried a little over 10,000 LBS of cargo. On yesterday Sunday August 1st there were quite a few more open seats we carried nearly 14,000 LBS and we still had weight to spare on both flights.

One thing to keep in mind it is winter in South Africa. Of course the 789 can handle JNB's altitude in the winter, the real test of the 789s power will happen in the summer that is when I expect we will see the 789 stretched to limit and where United more than likely will not be able to carry any cargo out of JNB.


Thanks for the intel! Even though it's winter, it is still pretty impressive that the 789 can haul any cargo at all on that sector! ATL is also a bit farther than EWR, which certainly is a factor.

9252fly wrote:
Some airlines have late evening departures out of JNB to help compensate for the higher daytime temperatures. Of course that would change connecting options for passengers connecting onward as well as fleet utilization scheduling..


The timing of the US-bound flights is actually pretty efficient, and good for maximizing connections on the US end, with a fairly short ground time at JNB. Night departure eastbound with early evening arrival, and evening departure westbound with early AM arrival.
 
gloom
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Mon Aug 02, 2021 8:16 pm

codc10 wrote:
DAL is working to preferentially schedule its 3 (currently) higher gross weight 359s on the route.


No need to, in most cases. Usually due to high and hot, A359s are TOW limited, but below 275t. Subject to specific day condition, but most calculations were just above 270t TOW limit.

Cheers,
Adam
 
jayunited
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Mon Aug 02, 2021 8:47 pm

codc10 wrote:
Thanks for the intel! Even though it's winter, it is still pretty impressive that the 789 can haul any cargo at all on that sector! ATL is also a bit farther than EWR, which certainly is a factor.



I do believe for the summer season out of JNB United will not be able to carry any cargo and we might have to block 1 or 2 rows in coach. However if we were blocking rows now during winter that would spell a route cancellation for United on this route. My reasoning for saying that is based on United experience with SFO-SIN and LAX-SIN. In the case of SFO-SIN United only had to block up to 2 rows for a short period of time during January when the jet stream across the Pacific is particularly strong requiring the flight to take on more fuel. However on LAX-SIN United was blocking at least 2 rows rows year around and the problem was exacerbated during the winter months where United was blocking sometimes up to 7 or 8 rows in coach. This is why United ultimately move LAX-SIN to SFO-SIN and made SFO-SIN daily double.

I think the same would apply to JNB-EWR, if United were forced to block rows on our 789s year around they would cancel the route because once JNB heats up in the summer United would not be able to sustain the route the number of rows that would need to be blocked would make the route untenable. I do think during the summer time there will be no cargo on United's JNB-EWR leg and I do think United will probably have to block 1 or 2 rows but I think that will only happen during the summer. Once South Africa's summer is over United would be able to once again go out completely fully and carry some freight as well.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Mon Aug 02, 2021 8:56 pm

codc10 wrote:
I understand to start JNB-ATL is taking a big payload restriction, and DAL is working to preferentially schedule its 3 (currently) higher gross weight 359s on the route.

Every twinjet takes "a big payload restriction" out of there.
It's not like the 77Ls were going out at their max payload.

Also, DL currently has four 280tonne A359s.



TropicalSky wrote:
guess we're gonna see what the A350 is made of on this route & put the debates to end

Not sure why one would believe this route would be the beginning or end of anything, insofar as that (ridiculous) debate goes.

  • SQ has been flying 18hr+ flights with 280tonne standard A359s, from sea-level airports for more than a year.
  • ET has flying A359s longhaul from an airport 2,000ft higher in elevation than JNB is, for some time as well.

The only people still believing that A350s have some type of performance handicap, relative to a model designed a quarter century earlier, are illogical fanboys who won't be convinced of/by anything.
 
codc10
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:04 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
codc10 wrote:
I understand to start JNB-ATL is taking a big payload restriction, and DAL is working to preferentially schedule its 3 (currently) higher gross weight 359s on the route.

Every twinjet takes "a big payload restriction" out of there.
It's not like the 77Ls were going out at their max payload.

Also, DL currently has four 280tonne A359s.


Even still, I'd call ~100 blocked seats a "big payload restriction"...
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:08 pm

codc10 wrote:
Even still, I'd call ~100 blocked seats a "big payload restriction"...

Assuming of course that such a number is accurate: which is..... doubtful.
 
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Polot
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:36 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
The only people still believing that A350s have some type of performance handicap, relative to a model designed a quarter century earlier, are illogical fanboys who won't be convinced of/by anything.

Yet the initial plan was to replace the nonstop JNB-ATL with JNB-CPT-ATL. One of the reasons that was dropped was not because of some newfound realization of A350 potential over at DL, but rather DL couldn’t get approval from SA government (https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... over-delta)

I don’t know what the performance hit of the A350 vs the 777 is, but I don’t know why you are assuming that just because the plane is a quarter of a century newer it must automatically have less of a performance handicap. Even with the heavier frame and thirstier engines the 77L still has a 67t MTOW advantage over the A359. There are definitely routes where it can haul more (whether it is needed/commercially more viable with additional fuel needs is another question).
 
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UnitedRB211
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:51 pm

jayunited wrote:
codc10 wrote:
Thanks for the intel! Even though it's winter, it is still pretty impressive that the 789 can haul any cargo at all on that sector! ATL is also a bit farther than EWR, which certainly is a factor.



I do believe for the summer season out of JNB United will not be able to carry any cargo and we might have to block 1 or 2 rows in coach. However if we were blocking rows now during winter that would spell a route cancellation for United on this route. My reasoning for saying that is based on United experience with SFO-SIN and LAX-SIN. In the case of SFO-SIN United only had to block up to 2 rows for a short period of time during January when the jet stream across the Pacific is particularly strong requiring the flight to take on more fuel. However on LAX-SIN United was blocking at least 2 rows rows year around and the problem was exacerbated during the winter months where United was blocking sometimes up to 7 or 8 rows in coach. This is why United ultimately move LAX-SIN to SFO-SIN and made SFO-SIN daily double.

I think the same would apply to JNB-EWR, if United were forced to block rows on our 789s year around they would cancel the route because once JNB heats up in the summer United would not be able to sustain the route the number of rows that would need to be blocked would make the route untenable. I do think during the summer time there will be no cargo on United's JNB-EWR leg and I do think United will probably have to block 1 or 2 rows but I think that will only happen during the summer. Once South Africa's summer is over United would be able to once again go out completely fully and carry some freight as well.


Just a quick calculation with zero wind credit, no alt CG and average summer temp of 20c is showing a MTOW of 537.4K
Which is about a 24.0K lb hit on Max structural. Wind and ALTF1 will help a lot obviously.

Just looking at the previous flights, over the last couple weeks TOW range between 530.0-540.0 on average.

It's doable, we shall see. Guess it depends on who works up the flight!
 
9252fly
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:55 pm

jayunited wrote:
codc10 wrote:
Thanks for the intel! Even though it's winter, it is still pretty impressive that the 789 can haul any cargo at all on that sector! ATL is also a bit farther than EWR, which certainly is a factor.



I do believe for the summer season out of JNB United will not be able to carry any cargo and we might have to block 1 or 2 rows in coach. However if we were blocking rows now during winter that would spell a route cancellation for United on this route. My reasoning for saying that is based on United experience with SFO-SIN and LAX-SIN. In the case of SFO-SIN United only had to block up to 2 rows for a short period of time during January when the jet stream across the Pacific is particularly strong requiring the flight to take on more fuel. However on LAX-SIN United was blocking at least 2 rows rows year around and the problem was exacerbated during the winter months where United was blocking sometimes up to 7 or 8 rows in coach. This is why United ultimately move LAX-SIN to SFO-SIN and made SFO-SIN daily double.

I think the same would apply to JNB-EWR, if United were forced to block rows on our 789s year around they would cancel the route because once JNB heats up in the summer United would not be able to sustain the route the number of rows that would need to be blocked would make the route untenable. I do think during the summer time there will be no cargo on United's JNB-EWR leg and I do think United will probably have to block 1 or 2 rows but I think that will only happen during the summer. Once South Africa's summer is over United would be able to once again go out completely fully and carry some freight as well.


I'm still of the view that during the southern hemisphere summer UA could truck cargo to CPT as I suspect the payload restrictions would be lower from a sea level airport.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:05 pm

Polot wrote:
One of the reasons that was dropped was

Hmm, what are those first two words there, again?
Seem to imply that you realize that there are actually several other factors why they (1) initially chose the triangular routing, and (2) why it's not a particular detriment that they didn't get it.

Going into 2020, DL had just seen a stateside competitor launch competing flights into South Africa, and to multiple destinations. DL also only had two 280T-capable birds in the fleet at that time, with neither being delivered at that weight variant. Thus, it's no real surprise that their initial choice was for the triangle; it addressed both issues at the least cost.

After that got complicated by politics, the alternative was rather simple:
Uprate the available fleet (which by the time the 77Ls left, had doubled in number) and do it nonstop-- which is what they went with.

  • Will they get the exact raw performance of the 77L? No.
  • Will they get more than enough to be sufficient? They believe so.

No idea why people are attempting to complicate this so much more than it needs to be, to further a ridiculous notion that will not, for whatever inane reason, perish on this site. It's "A343 has terrible takeoff capability!" all over again. :roll:



Polot wrote:
I don’t know what the performance hit of the A350 vs the 777 is

So then what are you even posting this for? :irked:


Polot wrote:
but I don’t know why you are assuming that just because the plane is a quarter of a century newer it must automatically have less of a performance handicap.

The presence of the word "relative" should've been your first clue that it wasn't a direct comparison; and if anything, was a lament that AvGeeks still haven't figured out that modern models don't need to directly duplicate previous ones, in order to effectively and successfully replace them in any given application.

Review A321LR vs 752, if you need another allegory to that concept.
 
codc10
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:14 pm

The better operating costs of the A359 versus 77L make it likely that this is an economical route for Delta even with a seat cap, and I’m sure that will improve with more actual in-service operational data plus additional 280t frames joining the fleet.

LAX772LR wrote:
codc10 wrote:
Even still, I'd call ~100 blocked seats a "big payload restriction"...

Assuming of course that such a number is accurate: which is..... doubtful.


Call it an “if you know, you know” situation. Anyone with similar access can either confirm or deny this information.

To be fair, the seat cap I reference is explicitly planned for the lower gross weight ships (3501-3512). The 280t 359s will obviously be able to lift more. But, Delta isn’t yet able to schedule the 280t ships on this route exclusively so it needs to plan for the 275t 359s as well.
 
FlyHPN
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:43 pm

codc10 wrote:
The better operating costs of the A359 versus 77L make it likely that this is an economical route for Delta even with a seat cap, and I’m sure that will improve with more actual in-service operational data plus additional 280t frames joining the fleet.

LAX772LR wrote:
codc10 wrote:
Even still, I'd call ~100 blocked seats a "big payload restriction"...

Assuming of course that such a number is accurate: which is..... doubtful.


Call it an “if you know, you know” situation. Anyone with similar access can either confirm or deny this information.

To be fair, the seat cap I reference is explicitly planned for the lower gross weight ships (3501-3512). The 280t 359s will obviously be able to lift more. But, Delta isn’t yet able to schedule the 280t ships on this route exclusively so it needs to plan for the 275t 359s as well.


Much of the information shared on this site is IYKYK, so I appreciate the insight, but what you’re saying directly contradicts what Zeke posted on page 2 where he ran the flight plan and came back with 26 blocked seats and they would have been limited to 270 MTOW regardless of variant due to conditions.
 
codc10
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:50 pm

FlyHPN wrote:
codc10 wrote:
The better operating costs of the A359 versus 77L make it likely that this is an economical route for Delta even with a seat cap, and I’m sure that will improve with more actual in-service operational data plus additional 280t frames joining the fleet.

LAX772LR wrote:
Assuming of course that such a number is accurate: which is..... doubtful.


Call it an “if you know, you know” situation. Anyone with similar access can either confirm or deny this information.

To be fair, the seat cap I reference is explicitly planned for the lower gross weight ships (3501-3512). The 280t 359s will obviously be able to lift more. But, Delta isn’t yet able to schedule the 280t ships on this route exclusively so it needs to plan for the 275t 359s as well.


Much of the information shared on this site is IYKYK, so I appreciate the insight, but what you’re saying directly contradicts what Zeke posted on page 2 where he ran the flight plan and came back with 26 blocked seats and they would have been limited to 270 MTOW regardless of variant due to conditions.


I respect Zeke and his analysis, I’m just reporting what I’ve seen internally from DAL (yesterday) pertaining to the actual, live operation of nonstop JNB-ATL with the A359, specifically ship 3510. I would be happy for someone to demonstrate that information is false… I’ve been here long enough to be prepared to accept some healthy skepticism if I am going to post unsourced information, so no worries at all.
 
9252fly
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Tue Aug 03, 2021 12:02 am

codc10 wrote:
FlyHPN wrote:
codc10 wrote:
The better operating costs of the A359 versus 77L make it likely that this is an economical route for Delta even with a seat cap, and I’m sure that will improve with more actual in-service operational data plus additional 280t frames joining the fleet.



Call it an “if you know, you know” situation. Anyone with similar access can either confirm or deny this information.

To be fair, the seat cap I reference is explicitly planned for the lower gross weight ships (3501-3512). The 280t 359s will obviously be able to lift more. But, Delta isn’t yet able to schedule the 280t ships on this route exclusively so it needs to plan for the 275t 359s as well.


Much of the information shared on this site is IYKYK, so I appreciate the insight, but what you’re saying directly contradicts what Zeke posted on page 2 where he ran the flight plan and came back with 26 blocked seats and they would have been limited to 270 MTOW regardless of variant due to conditions.


I respect Zeke and his analysis, I’m just reporting what I’ve seen internally from DAL (yesterday) pertaining to the actual, live operation of nonstop JNB-ATL with the A359, specifically ship 3510. I would be happy for someone to demonstrate that information is false… I’ve been here long enough to be prepared to accept some healthy skepticism if I am going to post unsourced information, so no worries at all.


Zeke likely works for an airline that has the A350 in their fleet. What would be interesting to find out is what those same A350's have for an EOW which impacts payload differently depending on the operator.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Tue Aug 03, 2021 12:06 am

codc10 wrote:
specifically ship 3510.

Which (again, if we're to believe any of this) isn't even one of the higher-MTOW aircraft (ships 3512-3515)....so there's that.
 
codc10
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Tue Aug 03, 2021 12:21 am

LAX772LR wrote:
codc10 wrote:
specifically ship 3510.

Which (again, if we're to believe any of this) isn't even one of the higher-MTOW aircraft (ships 3512-3515)....so there's that.


That’s exactly right, and exactly what I said. The referenced seat cap is for the lower gross weight models, which DAL is planning for until it can allocate 280t 359s on the JNB route exclusively.

You’ll also note that 3510 is en route DL201 JNB-ATL as I write this… the actual load tonight doesn’t tell us much because it’s quite a bit below the cap.
 
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ElroyJetson
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Tue Aug 03, 2021 1:38 am

LAX772LR wrote:
codc10 wrote:
specifically ship 3510.

Which (again, if we're to believe any of this) isn't even one of the higher-MTOW aircraft (ships 3512-3515)....so there's that.


As I recall the A359 was MTOW at 275t on the JNB-ATL flight so why would the 280 Variant matter?
 
majano
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:39 am

codc10 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
codc10 wrote:
specifically ship 3510.

Which (again, if we're to believe any of this) isn't even one of the higher-MTOW aircraft (ships 3512-3515)....so there's that.


That’s exactly right, and exactly what I said. The referenced seat cap is for the lower gross weight models, which DAL is planning for until it can allocate 280t 359s on the JNB route exclusively.

You’ll also note that 3510 is en route DL201 JNB-ATL as I write this… the actual load tonight doesn’t tell us much because it’s quite a bit below the cap.

What are the loads?
 
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zeke
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Tue Aug 03, 2021 9:21 am

ElroyJetson wrote:
As I recall the A359 was MTOW at 275t on the JNB-ATL flight so why would the 280 Variant matter?


The 280 t version means its a newer aircraft which has numerous aero changes which results in improved performance.
 
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Polot
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Tue Aug 03, 2021 10:46 am

zeke wrote:
ElroyJetson wrote:
As I recall the A359 was MTOW at 275t on the JNB-ATL flight so why would the 280 Variant matter?


The 280 t version means its a newer aircraft which has numerous aero changes which results in improved performance.

Most notable of which are a slightly different wing twist and larger winglets.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Tue Aug 03, 2021 1:23 pm

codc10 wrote:
The referenced seat cap is for the lower gross weight models, which DAL is planning for until it can allocate 280t 359s on the JNB route exclusively.

You’ll also note that 3510 is en route DL201 JNB-ATL as I write this… the actual load tonight doesn’t tell us much because it’s quite a bit below the cap.


I guess so long as loads are (reliably) quite light then it doesn't really matter for 275T or 280T. If the load should spike one day (cancellation of the previous flight, perhaps) and they need a tech stop with a 275T, that's a black eye.
 
Scotron12
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Tue Aug 03, 2021 2:23 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
codc10 wrote:
The referenced seat cap is for the lower gross weight models, which DAL is planning for until it can allocate 280t 359s on the JNB route exclusively.

You’ll also note that 3510 is en route DL201 JNB-ATL as I write this… the actual load tonight doesn’t tell us much because it’s quite a bit below the cap.


I guess so long as loads are (reliably) quite light then it doesn't really matter for 275T or 280T. If the load should spike one day (cancellation of the previous flight, perhaps) and they need a tech stop with a 275T, that's a black eye.


The A359 has two black eyes! :D
 
codc10
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Tue Aug 03, 2021 2:28 pm

majano wrote:
codc10 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Which (again, if we're to believe any of this) isn't even one of the higher-MTOW aircraft (ships 3512-3515)....so there's that.


That’s exactly right, and exactly what I said. The referenced seat cap is for the lower gross weight models, which DAL is planning for until it can allocate 280t 359s on the JNB route exclusively.

You’ll also note that 3510 is en route DL201 JNB-ATL as I write this… the actual load tonight doesn’t tell us much because it’s quite a bit below the cap.

What are the loads?


I don't have access to the load after the flight is completed but last I saw the LF was less than 50%.

MIflyer12 wrote:
codc10 wrote:
The referenced seat cap is for the lower gross weight models, which DAL is planning for until it can allocate 280t 359s on the JNB route exclusively.

You’ll also note that 3510 is en route DL201 JNB-ATL as I write this… the actual load tonight doesn’t tell us much because it’s quite a bit below the cap.


I guess so long as loads are (reliably) quite light then it doesn't really matter for 275T or 280T. If the load should spike one day (cancellation of the previous flight, perhaps) and they need a tech stop with a 275T, that's a black eye.


This is a strategic route for Delta, and I think they will plan very conservatively, at least at first, to keep enroute fuel stops to an absolute minimum. As time goes on, with more operational data, and the more capable frames can be allocated regularly, we'll probably see sellable capacity increase.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:38 pm

Polot wrote:
zeke wrote:
ElroyJetson wrote:
As I recall the A359 was MTOW at 275t on the JNB-ATL flight so why would the 280 Variant matter?


The 280 t version means its a newer aircraft which has numerous aero changes which results in improved performance.

Most notable of which are a slightly different wing twist and larger winglets.

In addition to modified empennage and fuselage weight savings (e.g. doors/linings, joints, etc).
 
evanb
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Wed Aug 04, 2021 6:47 am

codc10 wrote:
This is a strategic route for Delta, and I think they will plan very conservatively, at least at first, to keep enroute fuel stops to an absolute minimum. As time goes on, with more operational data, and the more capable frames can be allocated regularly, we'll probably see sellable capacity increase.


Definitely strategic, and to some extent, a flagship route for Delta that has been immensely profitable over the last two decades. Even the B77L took occasional fuel stops on the westbound leg during the South African summer, so seeing the A350 doing the same shouldn't be seen as overly problematic.

Also, with Delta now competing against United on routes to South Africa (rather than SAA) we also might see difference network configurations in the future. I suspect some anetters might ascribe that to the A350, but are more likely a result of competing with United (e.g. United operating from EWR and also operating direct into CPT creates a far different prospect for Delta than SAA operating from JNB and ACC (and DKR until more recently) to IAD and JFK).
 
JohanTally
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:55 pm

With concerns over a new Covid variant the UK is pausing routes and I wonder if the US will follow suit.

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2021/11/25/uk- ... larms.html
 
rbavfan
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Fri Nov 26, 2021 11:09 am

TW870 wrote:
Do the A350s that SQ uses on the US-SIN routes have an extra fuel tank, or is it just a performance bump for increased gross weight? I am curious as to whether Delta can buy a performance bump from Airbus and Rolls-Royce to make the numbers work better on the westbound leg.


The tank already had the capacity. They just had not activated the full capacity of the tank.
Mind you if you use it in the standard configuration for the ULR model you cannot use the fwd cargo hold.
 
rbavfan
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Fri Nov 26, 2021 11:21 am

Boof02671 wrote:
TW870 wrote:
Do the A350s that SQ uses on the US-SIN routes have an extra fuel tank, or is it just a performance bump for increased gross weight? I am curious as to whether Delta can buy a performance bump from Airbus and Rolls-Royce to make the numbers work better on the westbound leg.

Yes it’s an A350-900 ULR.

“ The biggest difference between the standard A350-900 and the ULR is its range. Airbus managed to cram an additional 6,300 gallons of fuel into the plane's tanks. The result is an increase in range from 9,300 miles to as much as 11,100 miles.

https://www.businessinsider.com/airbus- ... 018-10?amp


The A350-900ULR – derived from the A350-900 – has an extended range of up to 9,700 nautical miles. This was achieved by integrating a modified fuel system, which increases the aircraft’s fuel carrying capacity by 24,000 litres without the need for additional fuel tanks.

With a maximum take-off weight (MTOW) of 280 tonnes, the A350-900ULR is capable of flying over 20 hours non-stop, combining the highest levels of passenger and crew comfort with unbeatable economics for such distances.”

https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/news/en ... tance.html


Deltas are not the ULR model as they were updated but older models can only update to 275t due to wing & other changes that are not retrofitable.
 
ContinentalEWR
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:45 pm

CPT is a leisure route, a long one, and a very thin one at the moment given low demand. It makes sense that DL would cut it. Not much tourist traffic going there and with the news of a new variant discovered in South Africa, with some countries already shutting their borders, it wouldn't surprise if DL suspended JNB (and UA too).
 
hohd
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Fri Nov 26, 2021 7:20 pm

JohanTally wrote:
With concerns over a new Covid variant the UK is pausing routes and I wonder if the US will follow suit.

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2021/11/25/uk- ... larms.html


Yes US will also restrict flights from South Africa and 7 other countries, effective Monday, Nov 29

https://news.yahoo.com/u-restrict-trave ... on-brknews
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Fri Nov 26, 2021 9:38 pm

rbavfan wrote:
Deltas are not the ULR model as they were updated but older models can only update to 275t due to wing & other changes that are not retrofitable.

Not completely correct.

  • Even models without the wing twist and associated changes can be uprated to at least 277t (CX has done this with several) and possibly higher. PR has several A350s without the changes that operate at 278t, but they were factory delivered at that weight, so don't know if it can be reached via upgrade.

      Not sure if Airbus has even set/certified a definitive limit.

  • DLs older aircraft were delivered at 268t and uprated to 275t; however deliveries beyond N512DN have the modifications and DL selected the 280t w/v option.
 
720B
Posts: 370
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2015 10:52 am

Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Fri Nov 26, 2021 10:01 pm

I know this is not related to the topic at hand, so mods please delete if not allowed.

US is joining The European Union in restricting flights from South Africa; so Delta and other airlines will surely need to place their plans on hold.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-59427770
 
twoaislesforme
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2021 11:02 pm

Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Fri Nov 26, 2021 11:08 pm

720B wrote:
I know this is not related to the topic at hand, so mods please delete if not allowed.

US is joining The European Union in restricting flights from South Africa; so Delta and other airlines will surely need to place their plans on hold.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-59427770


biden administration just walked back he restrictions. Unable to post link but its on CNN
 
luv2cattlecall
Posts: 861
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2007 6:25 am

Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Sat Nov 27, 2021 1:00 am

twoaislesforme wrote:
720B wrote:
I know this is not related to the topic at hand, so mods please delete if not allowed.

US is joining The European Union in restricting flights from South Africa; so Delta and other airlines will surely need to place their plans on hold.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-59427770


biden administration just walked back he restrictions. Unable to post link but its on CNN


I'm not seeing it on CNN's website or anywhere else online, that it has been walked back.
 
twoaislesforme
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2021 11:02 pm

Re: DL drops Cape Town from JNB-ATL schedule

Sat Nov 27, 2021 1:05 am

luv2cattlecall wrote:
twoaislesforme wrote:
720B wrote:
I know this is not related to the topic at hand, so mods please delete if not allowed.

US is joining The European Union in restricting flights from South Africa; so Delta and other airlines will surely need to place their plans on hold.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-59427770


biden administration just walked back he restrictions. Unable to post link but its on CNN


I'm not seeing it on CNN's website or anywhere else online, that it has been walked back.


here it is, it was the NY Post

https://nypost.com/2021/11/26/biden-del ... -by-fauci/

but its only a delay of two days, my bad. I didnt read the article in its entirety.

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