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FlyEndeavorAir
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Joined: Sat May 15, 2021 10:49 pm

Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:05 am

There are still many airline positions, including those at AA's subsidiary companies that pay minimum wage, and that's union jobs as well.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:17 am

kngkyle wrote:
Final tally is over 300 flights cancelled this weekend. Monday already has over 100 cancellations and 77 for Tuesday so far. Lot of apologists here for AAs poor decision making.


Best post on a.net.

This was all avoidable.

This is accurate. AA causes alot of pain and frustrations for thousands of people and this was all avoidable. So much for giving people notice! AA can't even handle their check in counters right now so people can't even make flights. AA specifically can't handle check in , all other airlines just seem a little stressed or normal and AA is like total chaos. This is AA problems not industry problems
Last edited by slcdeltarumd11 on Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
LCDFlight
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Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:17 am

Basically schedule planning needs to talk to crew schedule planning, which is usually a different unit of an airline. Tension between these groups is not unheard of. They have different goals. Schedule planning wants the airline to fly the ideal routes for the fleet at ideal times. Crew scheduling staffs those flights with legal crews at the most efficient possible cost, which itself is a complex logistical solution. And sometimes it just can’t be done, which is when crew scheduling yells at the flight planners. Been there, done that.
 
FlyEndeavorAir
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Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:20 am

LCDFlight wrote:
Basically schedule planning needs to talk to crew schedule planning, which is usually a different unit of an airline. Tension between these groups is not unheard of. They have different goals. Schedule planning wants the airline to fly the ideal routes for the fleet at ideal times. Crew scheduling staffs those flights with legal crews at the most efficient possible cost, which itself is a complex logistical solution. And sometimes it just can’t be done, which is when crew scheduling yells at the flight planners. Been there, done that.


Even worse at the regionals where there is no schedule planning. The big guys just call up and yell when one of their regional flights is delayed/cancelled because there's no crew. And then don't renew their contract.

Been there, done that at Compass Airlines.
 
alasizon
Posts: 3041
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Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:24 am

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
kngkyle wrote:
Final tally is over 300 flights cancelled this weekend. Monday already has over 100 cancellations and 77 for Tuesday so far. Lot of apologists here for AAs poor decision making.


Best post on a.net.

This was all avoidable.

This is accurate. AA causes alot of pain and frustrations for thousands of people and this was all avoidable. So much for giving people notice! AA can't even handle their check in counters right now so people can't even make flights. AA specifically can't handle check in , all other airlines just seem a little stressed or normal and AA is like total chaos. This is AA problems not industry problems


WN has been chaos as well for the past couple weeks at their mega stations too. This is by no means an AA only problem. WN has no ramp staffing in most of their megas.
 
B737Captain1980
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Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:29 am

kngkyle wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
But you cant fault them for retiring dozens of older planes and essentially flushing (and displacing) thousands of pilots that now need retraining


??? You can't fault them for making bad decisions? What the heck can you fault them for if not this?


The entire world was grounded for over a year. Airlines hemorrhaging billions per month. As if you would have done any different. Every airline in the world parked their fleet. It takes a million moving pieces to stop the operation, it takes 5 million to get it moving again.
 
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kngkyle
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Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:56 am

B737Captain1980 wrote:
kngkyle wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
But you cant fault them for retiring dozens of older planes and essentially flushing (and displacing) thousands of pilots that now need retraining


??? You can't fault them for making bad decisions? What the heck can you fault them for if not this?


The entire world was grounded for over a year. Airlines hemorrhaging billions per month. As if you would have done any different. Every airline in the world parked their fleet. It takes a million moving pieces to stop the operation, it takes 5 million to get it moving again.


Yea, how could AA possibly know how many flights they can staff?!
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Mon Jun 21, 2021 5:41 am

kngkyle wrote:
B737Captain1980 wrote:
kngkyle wrote:

??? You can't fault them for making bad decisions? What the heck can you fault them for if not this?


The entire world was grounded for over a year. Airlines hemorrhaging billions per month. As if you would have done any different. Every airline in the world parked their fleet. It takes a million moving pieces to stop the operation, it takes 5 million to get it moving again.


Yea, how could AA possibly know how many flights they can staff?!


Yup AA in no situation would have enough staff to cover these flights. The situation clearly isn't last minute , they had to know for weeks ahead of time, they just chose to deal with it as last minute situation
 
phllax
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Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:17 am

DSM this Sunday morning was a zoo. 2 agents at the counter and 2 agents upstairs for the 5 originators, 3 of which were mainline. There was weather this morning, but PHX 320 got off 57 minutes late, CLT 319 got off 32 minutes late, DFW 319 got off 36 minutes late, ORD 175 got off 58 minutes late, and the DCA 175 was the luckiest with only an 18 minute penalty getting off the gate. That’s 4 agents for up to 548 people plus lap and jump seat.
 
wjcandee
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Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:57 am

AA will figure it out.

The pilot situation at AA is a simple matter of requalifying pilots, which AA can likely handle in a predictable way. (I don't mean that the process itself isn't involved, but it's a known animal; it's not like they're trying to hire pilots in the market; they're just trying to requalify existing ones.) Apparently, the biggest issues is with 737 pilots. Maybe they'll get creative and get more 737 pilots back on the line sooner.

As far as ground crews are concerned, look for prompt improvement in the following states this week: AS, IA, MS, MO. Look for incremental improvement in AL, ID, IN, NE, NH, ND, WV, WY. So ANC, FAI, MCI should already be improving.

After next Sunday, employment should pick up dramatically in certain major states: AK, FL, GA, OH, SC, SD, TX, UT. That will have big effects in ATL, DFW, SLC, GSP, CVG, MIA, FLL, MCO, etc.

And a shout out to the NY Post, which ran an article about AA's pilot shortage on the 737s, and actually used a photograph of an AA 737 to illustrate!! (Not a 767, 787, or DC10, like many outlets would have done.) https://nypost.com/2021/06/20/american- ... -shortage/
 
WN732
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Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Mon Jun 21, 2021 12:16 pm

AA had to make long term decisions within weeks to keep the airline afloat. Last year, every single "expert" was saying that travel would not rebound until 2024. Obviously that was wrong. Airlines were making decisions on this information. No one expected that travel would rebound as soon as the vaccines became available. Heck they originally said that it would take at least 6 months for the vaccines to be available for all.

Who honestly could have forseen travel rebound as quickly as it did, I certainly did not expect it to.
 
jayunited
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Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Mon Jun 21, 2021 12:25 pm

Even though United isn't facing staffing issues with our pilots we are in the same boat at some of our hubs like DEN where United started hiring for both ramp and C.S. as the winter season was winding down.

Every carrier talking a good game about being prepared for the recovery I don't think any of these carriers expected the recovery to takeoff this fast. Now you have network planners ramping up the schedule because they are looking at increased demand among other things. However on the other hand you have crew scheduling and in the case of United we station operations managers saying we need workers to handle all these flights. This last time around United buyout offer to senior employees was probably the best buyout offer I've ever seen in career here with United Airlines and there were a lot of top scale senior ground employees who took United up on the offer. I don't think United in December and January thought we would be where we are in this recovery in just 6 months. I think United probably thought they had more time and the surge of air travel wouldn't return until the Thanksgiving or Christmas holiday rush.

It is hard enough to hire, train ground staff with just a few months lead in time, it is absolutely impossible for an airline like American to retrain pilots especially since American retired so many fleet types and what is evident after reading this thread is most people don't understand the impact retiring an entire fleet has on an airline and what that retirement triggers. Although United has not retired any fleet types United has been shuffling the fleet around this also triggers what is known as a displacement bid. AA, DL, UA all have complex fleets, and they all have different pilot bases at different hubs case and point United is preparing to close their ORD 777 pilot base in July, ORD will transition over to 767 and 787 pilot base. UA's ORD based 777 pilots can bid to go to IAH, DCA, EWR, or SFO if they want to but they would then become commuters. Or if they choose to stay at ORD if they have the seniority they choose a different fleet type and can then displace a pilot with less seniority than them. The displacement then has a ripple effect and if a 777 pilot jumps over to the 787 he or she now has to go to DEN for training on the 787 or any other fleet type they may bump into using their seniority and that creates it own set of challenges. If Delta and American are anything like United I can tell you their pilot training facilities are in overdrive but you can only train so many pilots at a time.

I can tell you this network planning does not get involved in crew staffing issues whether it is pilots or airport operations. I'm not making excuses I'm just explaining to people how things work and how airlines like AA, DL and to a certain extent UA and even WN are now caught in this trap.
 
usflyer msp
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Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:36 pm

wjcandee wrote:
AA will figure it out.

As far as ground crews are concerned, look for prompt improvement in the following states this week: AS, IA, MS, MO. Look for incremental improvement in AL, ID, IN, NE, NH, ND, WV, WY. So ANC, FAI, MCI should already be improving.

After next Sunday, employment should pick up dramatically in certain major states: AK, FL, GA, OH, SC, SD, TX, UT. That will have big effects in ATL, DFW, SLC, GSP, CVG, MIA, FLL, MCO, etc.


It is not quite that simple. The industry generally has a 90 day lead time from the time a job is posted until they have an employee ready to go. Anyone hired now won't be ready until after the summer.
 
slider
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Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:47 pm

After having been in the airline universe for a few decades plus, I still shudder to think of how many utter imbeciles run airlines.

AA is fully to blame.
 
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AirKevin
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Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:14 pm

jayunited wrote:
UA's ORD based 777 pilots can bid to go to IAH, DCA, EWR, or SFO if they want to but they would then become commuters.

United has 777s flying into DCA?
 
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Acey559
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Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:29 pm

AirKevin wrote:
jayunited wrote:
UA's ORD based 777 pilots can bid to go to IAH, DCA, EWR, or SFO if they want to but they would then become commuters.

United has 777s flying into DCA?


That’s what we call our Washington, D.C. base. Even though the bulk of the operation is at IAD, officially within flight operations, one is considered a DCA-based pilot despite the fact they may never fly out of DCA airport.
Last edited by Acey559 on Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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AirKevin
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Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:32 pm

Acey559 wrote:
AirKevin wrote:
jayunited wrote:
UA's ORD based 777 pilots can bid to go to IAH, DCA, EWR, or SFO if they want to but they would then become commuters.

United has 777s flying into DCA?


Not sure if we currently do, but it was announced the category is reopening by early next year. We had a vacancy bid back in May that staffed that category, now we wait for the reopening date and for those pilots to be trained, if they’re not currently still flying the 777 at a different base.

Interesting. I didn't think the runways at DCA would be long enough, or the gates big enough, for that matter.
 
gon2fly
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Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:32 pm

AirKevin wrote:
United has 777s flying into DCA?


Obviously not, but..... Internally the IAD base is referred to and bid as the DCA base. It includes IAD, DCA, and BWI. When those of us within the company refer to the 'DCA base' it includes those three airports.....and not necessarily the equipment that flies into any given airport on a given day. ;-)
 
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Acey559
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Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:33 pm

AirKevin wrote:
Acey559 wrote:
AirKevin wrote:
United has 777s flying into DCA?


Not sure if we currently do, but it was announced the category is reopening by early next year. We had a vacancy bid back in May that staffed that category, now we wait for the reopening date and for those pilots to be trained, if they’re not currently still flying the 777 at a different base.

Interesting. I didn't think the runways at DCA would be long enough, or the gates big enough, for that matter.


Sorry, I edited my post after I realized you were specifically asking about DCA airport. My brain just initially assumed you were asking about the base, not the airport. :lol:
 
masseybrown
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Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:53 pm

UA, when faced with a similar (but more acute) operational meltdown, closed the CLE hub. AA doesn't have as obvious a target for closure; still, it would be interesting to know how evenly the cuts are being spread.
 
IADCA
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Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:15 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
However decisions were made based on unknown assumptions of recovery and unknown certainty of bailouts in both terms of timing and amount.

This entire industry deserves a free pass for 2021 after undergone the most disruptive black swan event possibly ever. It’s actually pretty remarkable they even in the position they are all considering with how much money they were burning through in Q2 and Q3 2020.


They deserve some foregiveness, but I'm not sure a blanket free pass for the entirety of 2021 is warranted. The 757/767 and E190 exits were announced more than a year ago. They've had time to handle the pilot issues.

The ground and CSA staff issues I can have some more sympathy for. Hiring is tough right now, and I can understand their reluctance to bump wages and be stuck with them long-term. That said, if inflation goes up, pay is going to have to go up too.

The amount of sympathy I give them also is inversely proportional to the fares I'm asked to pay. Right now UA's pricing is just out-of-sight high and I've actually been shifting business to AA for pure pricing reasons. So I'll cut them some slack there. They are trying to get customers and satisfy demand, which UA doesn't appear to be doing.
 
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OA412
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Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:16 pm

The thread topic is AA summer cancellations, not the politics of mask mandates in the airport/onboard an aircraft. Thanks!
 
9w748capt
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Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:35 pm

slider wrote:
After having been in the airline universe for a few decades plus, I still shudder to think of how many utter imbeciles run airlines.

AA is fully to blame.


Yup. Though you have to give it up to Dougie too. Even after continually cutting and degrading the onboard product to absurd levels, suckers like me continue to give him money. If AA knew weeks ago that they'd be having these issues, again good on them for conning us. They knew they'd get our money one way or the other.
 
32andBelow
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Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:40 pm

9w748capt wrote:
slider wrote:
After having been in the airline universe for a few decades plus, I still shudder to think of how many utter imbeciles run airlines.

AA is fully to blame.


Yup. Though you have to give it up to Dougie too. Even after continually cutting and degrading the onboard product to absurd levels, suckers like me continue to give him money. If AA knew weeks ago that they'd be having these issues, again good on them for conning us. They knew they'd get our money one way or the other.

I guarantee they were just waiting to see which flights to cancel after they booked out more
 
AMALH747430
Posts: 263
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Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:10 pm

IADCA wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
However decisions were made based on unknown assumptions of recovery and unknown certainty of bailouts in both terms of timing and amount.

This entire industry deserves a free pass for 2021 after undergone the most disruptive black swan event possibly ever. It’s actually pretty remarkable they even in the position they are all considering with how much money they were burning through in Q2 and Q3 2020.


They deserve some foregiveness, but I'm not sure a blanket free pass for the entirety of 2021 is warranted. The 757/767 and E190 exits were announced more than a year ago. They've had time to handle the pilot issues.

The ground and CSA staff issues I can have some more sympathy for. Hiring is tough right now, and I can understand their reluctance to bump wages and be stuck with them long-term. That said, if inflation goes up, pay is going to have to go up too.

The amount of sympathy I give them also is inversely proportional to the fares I'm asked to pay. Right now UA's pricing is just out-of-sight high and I've actually been shifting business to AA for pure pricing reasons. So I'll cut them some slack there. They are trying to get customers and satisfy demand, which UA doesn't appear to be doing.


…and I see that is irresponsibility on AAs part. They sold inventory they knew (or should have foreseen) they wouldn’t have. Is UA charging more, sure. However, they have built a schedule that they are more reasonably sure (nothing is 100%) right now they can operate. Things aren’t perfect right now, labor is short. However, AA has intentionally over scheduled themselves and that’s their own fault.

Sometimes I book a trip because I need to go at or around that time. Weather is one thing, mechanicals are one thing, but not being able to get where I need to go because AA management thinks that’s what it takes to be “today’s genius” isn’t going to cut it.
 
airlinepeanuts
Posts: 174
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 4:16 pm

Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:31 pm

9w748capt wrote:
slider wrote:
After having been in the airline universe for a few decades plus, I still shudder to think of how many utter imbeciles run airlines.

AA is fully to blame.


Yup. Though you have to give it up to Dougie too. Even after continually cutting and degrading the onboard product to absurd levels, suckers like me continue to give him money. If AA knew weeks ago that they'd be having these issues, again good on them for conning us. They knew they'd get our money one way or the other.


This. I don't get why AA is so hesitant to cancel early out. I remember when the Max's were grounded AA was canceling day-of, every day.
 
32andBelow
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Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:51 pm

airlinepeanuts wrote:
9w748capt wrote:
slider wrote:
After having been in the airline universe for a few decades plus, I still shudder to think of how many utter imbeciles run airlines.

AA is fully to blame.


Yup. Though you have to give it up to Dougie too. Even after continually cutting and degrading the onboard product to absurd levels, suckers like me continue to give him money. If AA knew weeks ago that they'd be having these issues, again good on them for conning us. They knew they'd get our money one way or the other.


This. I don't get why AA is so hesitant to cancel early out. I remember when the Max's were grounded AA was canceling day-of, every day.

It’s a textbook sign of cancel the lowest booked flight or the flight with the easiest rebooking while still selling all your tickets. Small regional airlines do it all the time. Weird to see American Airlines do it
 
MohawkWeekend
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Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:57 pm

Airlines need as much cash flow as possible right now to meet debt payments. If any company misses a debt payment, Wall Street goes bezonkers. Stock prices don't go up when this happens. So priority 1, 2 and 3 is get cash in the door. Operate as many flights as possible and then add 20 %.

Airlines might have pulled off this balancing act but now jet fuel prices are thru the roof further draining cash. Labor costs have to be going up too as new hires quit or have to be paid more to work CS and ground ops jobs.

Yikes.
 
airlinepeanuts
Posts: 174
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 4:16 pm

Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:59 pm

32andBelow wrote:
airlinepeanuts wrote:
9w748capt wrote:

Yup. Though you have to give it up to Dougie too. Even after continually cutting and degrading the onboard product to absurd levels, suckers like me continue to give him money. If AA knew weeks ago that they'd be having these issues, again good on them for conning us. They knew they'd get our money one way or the other.


This. I don't get why AA is so hesitant to cancel early out. I remember when the Max's were grounded AA was canceling day-of, every day.

It’s a textbook sign of cancel the lowest booked flight or the flight with the easiest rebooking while still selling all your tickets. Small regional airlines do it all the time. Weird to see American Airlines do it


I don't think that's quite the case for mainline at least. They don't cancel the lowest booked, oftentimes because they still need the plane/crew at the next airport/city to operate a flight, when they were canceling the Max's day of I can attest that those were VERY fully flights most of the time. It's just so strange, they had a long time to plan for this!
 
IADCA
Posts: 2363
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Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:59 pm

AMALH747430 wrote:
IADCA wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
However decisions were made based on unknown assumptions of recovery and unknown certainty of bailouts in both terms of timing and amount.

This entire industry deserves a free pass for 2021 after undergone the most disruptive black swan event possibly ever. It’s actually pretty remarkable they even in the position they are all considering with how much money they were burning through in Q2 and Q3 2020.


They deserve some foregiveness, but I'm not sure a blanket free pass for the entirety of 2021 is warranted. The 757/767 and E190 exits were announced more than a year ago. They've had time to handle the pilot issues.

The ground and CSA staff issues I can have some more sympathy for. Hiring is tough right now, and I can understand their reluctance to bump wages and be stuck with them long-term. That said, if inflation goes up, pay is going to have to go up too.

The amount of sympathy I give them also is inversely proportional to the fares I'm asked to pay. Right now UA's pricing is just out-of-sight high and I've actually been shifting business to AA for pure pricing reasons. So I'll cut them some slack there. They are trying to get customers and satisfy demand, which UA doesn't appear to be doing.


…and I see that is irresponsibility on AAs part. They sold inventory they knew (or should have foreseen) they wouldn’t have. Is UA charging more, sure. However, they have built a schedule that they are more reasonably sure (nothing is 100%) right now they can operate. Things aren’t perfect right now, labor is short. However, AA has intentionally over scheduled themselves and that’s their own fault.

Sometimes I book a trip because I need to go at or around that time. Weather is one thing, mechanicals are one thing, but not being able to get where I need to go because AA management thinks that’s what it takes to be “today’s genius” isn’t going to cut it.


Yes, absolutely. I would and recently did pay the higher fare right now on a time-sensitive itinerary for exactly the reason you state.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Mon Jun 21, 2021 5:05 pm

The airline is scheduling on razor thin margin for error. Like said, it doesn't take much for them to be short pilot hours to cover flights.
The training backlog takes time to work through and there was no way it was going to be caught-up by this summer. Just isn't enough sim time and ability to process through the training pipeline.

Then you have some weather events that burn through reserve hours, compounded through the month and run out of reserve hours. Then you trips to cover posted in open-time and don't get enough pilots who want to and/or are legal to cover additional trips beyond their normal schedule. After all its summer vacation season and approaching a big holiday vacation period and they want to have time off too.

To put this in perspective, less than 120 days ago we were only flying around 20% the number of people flying today.
You could see this coming a mile away that this summer was going to be tough operationally. Everyone in the industry saw it coming.
 
MohawkWeekend
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Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:15 pm

But then why would management do this? The C-Suite folks aren't stupid.
 
CobaltScar
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Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:30 pm

Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:05 pm

32andBelow wrote:
Time for the airlines to increase their pay or benefits to get people. Make non revving good again to start


non revving is neigh impossible because everyone is taking turns having meltdowns and sending their canceled pax to ride on other airlines

FlyEndeavorAir wrote:
There are still many airline positions, including those at AA's subsidiary companies that pay minimum wage, and that's union jobs as well.


As someone else said, you can make more at Bucees and be in the air conditioning all day. Also more and more businesses are starting out at 15+ per hour, Universal Studios being the most recent one to come to mind. Who in their right minds would want to be a gate agent making 2/3rds of that? And have to clean planes between turns on top of that??
 
CobaltScar
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Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:30 pm

Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:10 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
Basically schedule planning needs to talk to crew schedule planning, which is usually a different unit of an airline. Tension between these groups is not unheard of. They have different goals. Schedule planning wants the airline to fly the ideal routes for the fleet at ideal times. Crew scheduling staffs those flights with legal crews at the most efficient possible cost, which itself is a complex logistical solution. And sometimes it just can’t be done, which is when crew scheduling yells at the flight planners. Been there, done that.


Don't they have a computer program that auto generates the schedules based on best use of crew?
 
fun2fly
Posts: 1706
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:44 am

Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:12 pm

Remember back earlier in 2021, AA bragged full steam ahead, outpace our competitors to 100%, etc. regardless of the financial impact or something absurd like that. UA did the opposite, slow and steady and took a lot of negative comments for it, but saved cash. DL was somewhere in the middle on schedule, and blocked the middle seat which seemed to be successful. Now, DL and UA have shown that a slow, steady approach will pan out in the end transitioning into the new "normal" post pandemic domestic ramp up even going as far as putting deposits down on new planes.

As many have said, AA is to blame. The only real question is how much does it cost them and for how long. Already in a tougher financial position, this surely doesn't help. Then, throw in an Austin expansion when you can't cover the base flying you already want to. How does that happen? A story about AA on CNN/Fox/Internet about 300+ flight cancellations does have ramifications in the marketplace, regardless of how insignificant it might be in the # of flights per day.

Lots of popcorn needed to watch the aviation industry play out, and this situation is no different, but might require some Chicago mix to upgrade watching the events.
 
32andBelow
Posts: 5640
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:30 pm

fun2fly wrote:
Remember back earlier in 2021, AA bragged full steam ahead, outpace our competitors to 100%, etc. regardless of the financial impact or something absurd like that. UA did the opposite, slow and steady and took a lot of negative comments for it, but saved cash. DL was somewhere in the middle on schedule, and blocked the middle seat which seemed to be successful. Now, DL and UA have shown that a slow, steady approach will pan out in the end transitioning into the new "normal" post pandemic domestic ramp up even going as far as putting deposits down on new planes.

As many have said, AA is to blame. The only real question is how much does it cost them and for how long. Already in a tougher financial position, this surely doesn't help. Then, throw in an Austin expansion when you can't cover the base flying you already want to. How does that happen? A story about AA on CNN/Fox/Internet about 300+ flight cancellations does have ramifications in the marketplace, regardless of how insignificant it might be in the # of flights per day.

Lots of popcorn needed to watch the aviation industry play out, and this situation is no different, but might require some Chicago mix to upgrade watching the events.

It’s fun cus their 100% strategy would have worked great…if they kept their crews qualified where they would be needed now
 
Sooner787
Posts: 2859
Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:44 am

Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:43 pm

and to add to AA's worries today, a big t-storm is moving over DFW right now :)
 
32andBelow
Posts: 5640
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:50 pm

Sooner787 wrote:
and to add to AA's worries today, a big t-storm is moving over DFW right now :)

Damn they should have waited! Don’t need to cancel for crew if you can cancel for weather!
 
AmericanAir88
Posts: 264
Joined: Wed May 27, 2020 8:59 pm

Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:08 pm

Lot of non-avgeek friends and family asking me what to think of all of this.

Is this AA story exclusive to the airline or is every aviation company going through this? I know WN and DL had issues lately.

Will there really be mass cancellations every day or is it news being news?

As a frequent AA flier, I am interested in knowing. A crew shortage/mechanical delay on Saturday did cause me to miss my connection in CLT.
 
alasizon
Posts: 3041
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:31 pm

AmericanAir88 wrote:
Lot of non-avgeek friends and family asking me what to think of all of this.

Is this AA story exclusive to the airline or is every aviation company going through this? I know WN and DL had issues lately.

Will there really be mass cancellations every day or is it news being news?

As a frequent AA flier, I am interested in knowing. A crew shortage/mechanical delay on Saturday did cause me to miss my connection in CLT.


Every carrier is going to have issues all summer long. WN is having continuous staffing issues on the ramp in most of their stations and is extremely tight on crews, UA is struggling to staff DEN and ORD above and below wing, AS is short in SEA (by proxy of McGee being extremely short), DL was short below-wing and in maintenance in MSP/DTW but I'm not sure if that is still the case.

AA put out a June schedule it planned to be able to operate but for whatever crew reason, that didn't go according to plan. All it takes is one sim going down or an instructor being sick for an extended period of time and you've easily lost a handful of crews for the month.
 
LCDFlight
Posts: 1207
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:22 pm

Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:52 pm

CobaltScar wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
Basically schedule planning needs to talk to crew schedule planning, which is usually a different unit of an airline. Tension between these groups is not unheard of. They have different goals. Schedule planning wants the airline to fly the ideal routes for the fleet at ideal times. Crew scheduling staffs those flights with legal crews at the most efficient possible cost, which itself is a complex logistical solution. And sometimes it just can’t be done, which is when crew scheduling yells at the flight planners. Been there, done that.


Don't they have a computer program that auto generates the schedules based on best use of crew?


I am out of date on the latest tech, but it is more “computer assisted” than computer driven. These are monumental decisions involving hiring people, making people move to a new base, and at the very least spending hundreds of millions of dollars a month. The legal restrictions and “wisdom” aspects are difficult judgment calls. But yeah they probably have software to assist.

About flight planning, similar answer. They have software to help, but these are weighty decisions they don’t just assign to a computer. Billions of dollars are being committed on something like an AA quarterly schedule.

I just checked, AA phone reservations is >120 minutes wait time today. Ugly.
 
alasizon
Posts: 3041
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Mon Jun 21, 2021 9:32 pm

AA confirmed to Fox Business that roughly 80 flights per day will be cancelled for the remainder of the month and there are plans to adjust a small amount of the July schedule. Hopefully the adjustments are limited cancellations and more along the lines of equipment swaps.

https://www.foxbusiness.com/lifestyle/a ... r-day-june
 
jeffrey1970
Posts: 1522
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2001 1:41 am

Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Mon Jun 21, 2021 9:37 pm

32andBelow wrote:
RyanairGuru wrote:
jeffrey1970 wrote:
How differently did American handle the downturn in travel after 9/11, and the 2008 recession versus today?


The 2008 recession caused traffic to drop by about 10%. 9/11 caused a drop of 30%. In April last year, traffic was down 90%. While 9/11 was a shocking and horrific event, the impact it had on the airlines was - in fact - less than the Coronavirus pandemic. Because of that, it’s hard to draw parallels between how the airlines have handled the past year compared to previous crises.

But they were bailed out…3 times.



Four words, " To big to fail".
 
jeffrey1970
Posts: 1522
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2001 1:41 am

Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Mon Jun 21, 2021 9:41 pm

RyanairGuru wrote:
jeffrey1970 wrote:
How differently did American handle the downturn in travel after 9/11, and the 2008 recession versus today?


The 2008 recession caused traffic to drop by about 10%. 9/11 caused a drop of 30%. In April last year, traffic was down 90%. While 9/11 was a shocking and horrific event, the impact it had on the airlines was - in fact - less than the Coronavirus pandemic. Because of that, it’s hard to draw parallels between how the airlines have handled the past year compared to previous crises.



I know all three were from different situations, and causes. What lessons can American learn from the other two situations.
 
Varsity1
Posts: 2316
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 4:55 am

Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Tue Jun 22, 2021 12:27 am

AA knew this was coming. Do you guys/gals remember the memo begging employees to volunteer at the airports?

They saw it coming and said nothing.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 9881
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Tue Jun 22, 2021 12:31 am

WN732 wrote:
AA had to make long term decisions within weeks to keep the airline afloat. Last year, every single "expert" was saying that travel would not rebound until 2024. Obviously that was wrong. Airlines were making decisions on this information. No one expected that travel would rebound as soon as the vaccines became available. Heck they originally said that it would take at least 6 months for the vaccines to be available for all.

Who honestly could have forseen travel rebound as quickly as it did, I certainly did not expect it to.

No, it isn't obvious. There's been a big domestic rebound but international traffic remains severely depressed. AA has big intl ops; DL bigger, and UA yet bigger still. We are likely still some time away from systemwide RPM and PRASM recovery at AA, DL, or UA.
 
trooper508
Posts: 13
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2007 11:34 am

Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Tue Jun 22, 2021 12:40 am

Just a little perspective on how this is impacting real people tonight. Got a call from my daughter in CLT (not where I am, so I can’t help) about a last minute cancellation tonight. Sobbing bc check-in was not appropriately staffed for the horrible lines, security was not appropriately staffed for the horrible lines, then about an hour before her flight, it cancels. Last flight out tonight, of course. Then, she had to face another horrible line to try and find a flight tomorrow. HOURS of a wait time should she decide to wait on the phone.

Continuing to offer for sale a schedule you cannot honor is not honorable. This was completely avoidable and a little preemptive adjustment with more than an hour or so notice would have gone a long way to reduce the stress put on a customer.
 
Chemist
Posts: 934
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 4:46 am

Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Tue Jun 22, 2021 5:55 am

This isn't the fault of rebounding travel, this is the fault of scheuling more flights than you can staff. The planes could be 50% full or 100% full - AA couldn't fly their schedule. Is WN out of trained pilots? How about DL, UA? This just seems systemic of the rot that AA has gone through over the past 20 years. Cheapening product, customer is just somebody to charge fees and abuse. It shows.
 
DaCubbyBearBar
Posts: 344
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2008 12:31 pm

Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Tue Jun 22, 2021 7:46 am

AmericanAir88 wrote:
Lot of non-avgeek friends and family asking me what to think of all of this.

Is this AA story exclusive to the airline or is every aviation company going through this? I know WN and DL had issues lately.

Will there really be mass cancellations every day or is it news being news?

As a frequent AA flier, I am interested in knowing. A crew shortage/mechanical delay on Saturday did cause me to miss my connection in CLT.

According to FlightAware, for 6-21-21, WN had 212 cancellations while AA had 200. On delays, WN had 1172 and AA 969. Although flights are still operating on 6-21, the stats are now adding on 6-22.
 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 5203
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:30 am

Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Tue Jun 22, 2021 8:23 am

When is this a bait and switch? Don't tell me your only buying an origin to a destination. AA isnt getting all these people to their destinations the same day. AA will gladly charge you more for certain flights. If AA sold flights to get ticket sales and physically never could fly them and knew it but still scheduled them to get more ticket sales, i think this makes a rare case a lawyer could argue? AA I think is sitting on a legal situation im not sure has ever really existed before. They sold and scheduled way more flights then they ever could fly and knew it. This seems like a different situation entirely then a normal flight getting cancelled. AA took in extra money and loaded flights they never could fly to get more sales. This didn't happen overnight AA loaded all these flights and knew it was impossible to fly them all

This situation has to have been clear months ago at AA hq. This whole thing seems avoidable. AA was too busy hiring lobbyists for their government welfare and investing in electric helicopter companies then to actually run an airline

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