Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
william
Topic Author
Posts: 3460
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 1999 1:31 pm

DFW Airport marks 40 years as an American Airlines hub

Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:30 pm

It was interesting watching how AA moved other airline tenants slowly but surely out of now Terminal A and C. Moving most of them over to now Terminal B.

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/air ... lines-hub/

"But it was in 1981 that American embraced Texas as an air hub. American increased the daily number of flights out of DFW by 70% in 1981, from 128 to 216, and it increased the number of destinations from 47 to 59, according to airline schedule tracking website Departedflights.com."

"American plans to fly as many as 870 flights a day out of DFW during the peak summer period, slightly less than it did in 2019 before the pandemic."
 
jfk777
Posts: 7487
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

Re: DFW Airport marks 40 years as an American Airlines hub

Sun Jun 20, 2021 6:54 am

Whoever thought AA would be flying as far west as Hong Kong as well as to Tokyo. Also to Brazil & Argentina. AA flies just about everywhere from the central south of the USA.
 
MartijnNL
Posts: 1047
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 11:44 am

Re: DFW Airport marks 40 years as an American Airlines hub

Sun Jun 20, 2021 9:08 am

Unfortunately the article can only be read by paying subscribers.
 
PANAMsterdam
Posts: 366
Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:45 am

Re: DFW Airport marks 40 years as an American Airlines hub

Sun Jun 20, 2021 9:10 am

And don’t forget: AA kicked Delta out of their Texas mansion, and then some! DFW = AA.
Every country has an airline. The world has Pan Am.
 
User avatar
jfklganyc
Posts: 6425
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

Re: DFW Airport marks 40 years as an American Airlines hub

Sun Jun 20, 2021 10:02 am

PANAMsterdam wrote:
And don’t forget: AA kicked Delta out of their Texas mansion, and then some! DFW = AA.



They coexisted for many years.

Delta had the better hub facility with the tunnel and satellite.

No reason DFW couldn’t have been like ORD…but Delta moving ops to inefficient RJs and internal decisions to right finances led to the plug being pulled.
 
User avatar
DarkSnowyNight
Posts: 2848
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:59 pm

Re: DFW Airport marks 40 years as an American Airlines hub

Sun Jun 20, 2021 10:17 am

jfklganyc wrote:
PANAMsterdam wrote:
And don’t forget: AA kicked Delta out of their Texas mansion, and then some! DFW = AA.



They coexisted for many years.

Delta had the better hub facility with the tunnel and satellite.

No reason DFW couldn’t have been like ORD…but Delta moving ops to inefficient RJs and internal decisions to right finances led to the plug being pulled.


I think that is more accurate than to say 'AA kicked DL out'... In addition to your points, if that were really true, AA would have wound up with a presence in Term E.

DL left on their own accord.


Having that been said... DFW remains one of the Epic Hubs of the Western World.
Well, you know what they say. Whatever doesn't kill you...
... Must not be an MD-11.
 
CIDFlyer
Posts: 2204
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2005 7:19 am

Re: DFW Airport marks 40 years as an American Airlines hub

Sun Jun 20, 2021 12:54 pm

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
AA would have wound up with a presence in Term E.

DL left on their own .


Actually, AA has a pretty good presence on E now completely occupying the satellite terminal and southern third of terminal E.

DL did leave in their own accord but tney made some and decisions and they just couldn’t keep up. It was either take a schedule of 8x M80s to a city on AA or 3x CRJ on DL.
 
User avatar
STT757
Posts: 14438
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

Re: DFW Airport marks 40 years as an American Airlines hub

Sun Jun 20, 2021 1:17 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
PANAMsterdam wrote:
And don’t forget: AA kicked Delta out of their Texas mansion, and then some! DFW = AA.



They coexisted for many years.

Delta had the better hub facility with the tunnel and satellite.

No reason DFW couldn’t have been like ORD…but Delta moving ops to inefficient RJs and internal decisions to right finances led to the plug being pulled.


I think in the early ‘00s DL was in a bad spot, they cancelled or delayed many 737-800s they originally had ordered in the mid- late ‘90s.. That combined with the expedited retirements of the 727s after 9/11 put DL in a hole in terms of narrow body aircraft. They tried to backfill with regional jets but obviously it was not successful.

DL either had to acquire more narrow body aircraft or start shrinking. They choose to shrink DFW to provide the equipment for ATL, SLC etc..
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
IFLYUA767
Posts: 51
Joined: Mon May 31, 2021 11:42 pm

Re: DFW Airport marks 40 years as an American Airlines hub

Sun Jun 20, 2021 1:50 pm

From what I have read it seems that DL needed to cut costs and DFW just wasn’t working for them and AA was really making DFW competitive. DL also had a maintenance hangar at DFW that I believe AA took over a few years after DL pulled out but I might be wrong.
 
NYCAAer
Posts: 799
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2004 10:22 pm

Re: DFW Airport marks 40 years as an American Airlines hub

Sun Jun 20, 2021 3:36 pm

And also the AA hub meant the demise of Braniff, probably more noteworthy than the DL hub closure.
 
User avatar
modernArt
Posts: 528
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2003 2:23 pm

Re: DFW Airport marks 40 years as an American Airlines hub

Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:12 pm

Dallas has been a hub for American for far longer than 40 years...
 
Italianflyer
Posts: 739
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2007 3:06 pm

Re: DFW Airport marks 40 years as an American Airlines hub

Sun Jun 20, 2021 7:36 pm

Didn't the anointment of DFW as their primary hub coincide with their HQ move from New York City to Fort Worth?
 
User avatar
OzarkD9S
Posts: 5953
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2001 2:31 am

Re: DFW Airport marks 40 years as an American Airlines hub

Sun Jun 20, 2021 11:12 pm

NYCAAer wrote:

And also the AA hub meant the demise of Braniff, probably more noteworthy than the DL hub closure.


Many factors contributed to BN's demise, which has been well documented. The AA hub certainly didn't help matters.
"My soul is in the sky". -Pyramus- A Midsummer Night's Dream
 
gwrudolph
Posts: 553
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 3:46 pm

Re: DFW Airport marks 40 years as an American Airlines hub

Mon Jun 21, 2021 12:27 am

I think DL just smartly did what others did and concentrated their resources where they could win. Some of their other hubs might not be the fortresses they currently are were or not for the smart decision to pull back to fewer, stronger hubs.
 
cedarjet
Posts: 8946
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 1:12 am

Re: DFW Airport marks 40 years as an American Airlines hub

Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:48 am

modernArt wrote:
Dallas has been a hub for American for far longer than 40 years...

Not really. It was an 80s Robert Crandall move
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
WA707atMSP
Posts: 2023
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:16 pm

Re: DFW Airport marks 40 years as an American Airlines hub

Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:22 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
PANAMsterdam wrote:
And don’t forget: AA kicked Delta out of their Texas mansion, and then some! DFW = AA.



They coexisted for many years.

Delta had the better hub facility with the tunnel and satellite.

No reason DFW couldn’t have been like ORD…but Delta moving ops to inefficient RJs and internal decisions to right finances led to the plug being pulled.


An Air Transport World article about DL said their DFW hub lost money in 16 out of 17 years prior to its closure. It's surprising DL tolerated losses at DFW so long.
 
Brandon757
Posts: 162
Joined: Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:16 pm

Re: DFW Airport marks 40 years as an American Airlines hub

Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:27 pm

CIDFlyer wrote:
DarkSnowyNight wrote:
AA would have wound up with a presence in Term E.

DL left on their own .


Actually, AA has a pretty good presence on E now completely occupying the satellite terminal and southern third of terminal E.

DL did leave in their own accord but tney made some and decisions and they just couldn’t keep up. It was either take a schedule of 8x M80s to a city on AA or 3x CRJ on DL.

Whose gates did they take over on the Southern part of E? Jeez.
 
WA707atMSP
Posts: 2023
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:16 pm

Re: DFW Airport marks 40 years as an American Airlines hub

Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:52 pm

AA's June 1, 1973 timetable shows the following flights out of DAL, 7 months before DFW opened:

ACA: 1x 707
BAL: 3x 707
BOS: 1x 727
ORD: 2x DC-10, 3x 707, 1x 727
CVG: 1x 707, 3x 727
CLE: 1x 707, 3x 727
DAY: 1x 707, 1x 727
DTW: 1x 707, 1x 727
ELP: 2x DC-10, 1x 707, 2x 727
IND: 3x 707
LIT: 4x 727
LAX: 1x DC-10, 1x 707, 4x 727
SDF: 2x 727
MEM: 1x DC-10, 4x 727
MEX: 2x 707
BNA: 5x 727
LGA: 2x DC-10, 2x 727
EWR: 1x 707
JFK: 1x 707
OKC: 2x 707, 2x 727
PHL: 2x 707, 1x 727
PHX: 4x 707, 2x 727
PIT: 1x 707, 2x 727
STL: 4x 707, 1x 727
SAT: 1x 707
SAN: 3x 707, 1x 727
SFO: 2x DC-10, 3x 707, 1x 727
TUS: 1x DC-10, 2x 707, 1x 727
TUL: 1x 727
IAD: 1x DC-10, 2x 727

Clearly, Dallas was a hub for AA long before 1981.
 
YoungDon
Posts: 655
Joined: Thu May 31, 2001 9:33 am

Re: DFW Airport marks 40 years as an American Airlines hub

Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:18 pm

WA707atMSP wrote:
AA's June 1, 1973 timetable shows the following flights out of DAL, 7 months before DFW opened:

ACA: 1x 707
BAL: 3x 707
BOS: 1x 727
ORD: 2x DC-10, 3x 707, 1x 727
CVG: 1x 707, 3x 727
CLE: 1x 707, 3x 727
DAY: 1x 707, 1x 727
DTW: 1x 707, 1x 727
ELP: 2x DC-10, 1x 707, 2x 727
IND: 3x 707
LIT: 4x 727
LAX: 1x DC-10, 1x 707, 4x 727
SDF: 2x 727
MEM: 1x DC-10, 4x 727
MEX: 2x 707
BNA: 5x 727
LGA: 2x DC-10, 2x 727
EWR: 1x 707
JFK: 1x 707
OKC: 2x 707, 2x 727
PHL: 2x 707, 1x 727
PHX: 4x 707, 2x 727
PIT: 1x 707, 2x 727
STL: 4x 707, 1x 727
SAT: 1x 707
SAN: 3x 707, 1x 727
SFO: 2x DC-10, 3x 707, 1x 727
TUS: 1x DC-10, 2x 707, 1x 727
TUL: 1x 727
IAD: 1x DC-10, 2x 727

Clearly, Dallas was a hub for AA long before 1981.


The idea of multiple DC-10s a day from DAL just tickles me silly. Looking at the field now, seems like a tight fit but there were a lot less aircraft using the airport at that time too, I'd imagine.
 
WA707atMSP
Posts: 2023
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:16 pm

Re: DFW Airport marks 40 years as an American Airlines hub

Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:22 pm

YoungDon wrote:
WA707atMSP wrote:
AA's June 1, 1973 timetable shows the following flights out of DAL, 7 months before DFW opened:

ACA: 1x 707
BAL: 3x 707
BOS: 1x 727
ORD: 2x DC-10, 3x 707, 1x 727
CVG: 1x 707, 3x 727
CLE: 1x 707, 3x 727
DAY: 1x 707, 1x 727
DTW: 1x 707, 1x 727
ELP: 2x DC-10, 1x 707, 2x 727
IND: 3x 707
LIT: 4x 727
LAX: 1x DC-10, 1x 707, 4x 727
SDF: 2x 727
MEM: 1x DC-10, 4x 727
MEX: 2x 707
BNA: 5x 727
LGA: 2x DC-10, 2x 727
EWR: 1x 707
JFK: 1x 707
OKC: 2x 707, 2x 727
PHL: 2x 707, 1x 727
PHX: 4x 707, 2x 727
PIT: 1x 707, 2x 727
STL: 4x 707, 1x 727
SAT: 1x 707
SAN: 3x 707, 1x 727
SFO: 2x DC-10, 3x 707, 1x 727
TUS: 1x DC-10, 2x 707, 1x 727
TUL: 1x 727
IAD: 1x DC-10, 2x 727

Clearly, Dallas was a hub for AA long before 1981.


The idea of multiple DC-10s a day from DAL just tickles me silly. Looking at the field now, seems like a tight fit but there were a lot less aircraft using the airport at that time too, I'd imagine.


AA, DL, and Braniff all flew 747s from DAL, too. Braniff was able to fly 747s nonstop from DAL to HNL, before the move to DFW.
 
2eng2efficient
Posts: 126
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:30 pm

Re: DFW Airport marks 40 years as an American Airlines hub

Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:30 pm

I was not aware that DL tried to backfill with RJs at DFW. All the old pictures of Delta’s DFW operation seem to feature 727s and 1011s, well into the 90s. Were they running CRJs? No way they could compete with AA with that kind of offering.
 
SESGDL
Posts: 2988
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:25 am

Re: DFW Airport marks 40 years as an American Airlines hub

Mon Jun 21, 2021 5:30 pm

2eng2efficient wrote:
I was not aware that DL tried to backfill with RJs at DFW. All the old pictures of Delta’s DFW operation seem to feature 727s and 1011s, well into the 90s. Were they running CRJs? No way they could compete with AA with that kind of offering.


DL didn’t start doing this until after 9/11. That really kind of signaled the end of the hub, even though hub operations continued into the mid 2000s. By that time, airlines were shrinking and resources were stretched thin. Obviously AA wasn’t going to be leaving DFW, so DL had no choice but to walk away and focus on stronger hubs.

Jeremy
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 547
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:06 pm

Re: DFW Airport marks 40 years as an American Airlines hub

Mon Jun 21, 2021 5:49 pm

DL started pulling resources from DFW to build up ATL. There's no way ATL would be the hub it is today, if DL were hubbing at DFW as well. Ultimately, it worked out for both airlines. DL's departure also opened the door for ULCC to gradually build up a healthy presence, so consumers came out ahead as well.
 
n9801f
Posts: 364
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 8:29 am

Re: DFW Airport marks 40 years as an American Airlines hub

Tue Jun 22, 2021 12:11 pm

WA707atMSP wrote:
AA's June 1, 1973 timetable shows the following flights out of DAL, 7 months before DFW opened:

ACA: 1x 707
BAL: 3x 707
BOS: 1x 727
ORD: 2x DC-10, 3x 707, 1x 727
CVG: 1x 707, 3x 727
CLE: 1x 707, 3x 727
DAY: 1x 707, 1x 727
DTW: 1x 707, 1x 727
ELP: 2x DC-10, 1x 707, 2x 727
IND: 3x 707
LIT: 4x 727
LAX: 1x DC-10, 1x 707, 4x 727
SDF: 2x 727
MEM: 1x DC-10, 4x 727
MEX: 2x 707
BNA: 5x 727
LGA: 2x DC-10, 2x 727
EWR: 1x 707
JFK: 1x 707
OKC: 2x 707, 2x 727
PHL: 2x 707, 1x 727
PHX: 4x 707, 2x 727
PIT: 1x 707, 2x 727
STL: 4x 707, 1x 727
SAT: 1x 707
SAN: 3x 707, 1x 727
SFO: 2x DC-10, 3x 707, 1x 727
TUS: 1x DC-10, 2x 707, 1x 727
TUL: 1x 727
IAD: 1x DC-10, 2x 727

Clearly, Dallas was a hub for AA long before 1981.

Thanks for this! It's quite a trip down memory lane.

Congratulations to AA on this achievement. From ~100 flights in 1973 to ~900 in 2019.

More than other big legacies, AA had continuity of senior leadership over these decades. And those leaders stayed laser-focused on strategic objectives.

Well done!
 
RJNUT
Posts: 1956
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 1999 1:58 am

Re: DFW Airport marks 40 years as an American Airlines hub

Tue Jun 22, 2021 12:39 pm

i remember non-revving on DL L-1011 from, DFW -SEA in 1st Class back in early 80's!.
 
cedarjet
Posts: 8946
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 1:12 am

Re: DFW Airport marks 40 years as an American Airlines hub

Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:15 pm

Lots of flights at DAL do not a hub make. “Hub” means connectivity. Nearly all of the flights in the 1973 timetable are once or twice daily. That’s just O&D, sorry.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
IAHWorldflyer
Posts: 906
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:22 pm

Re: DFW Airport marks 40 years as an American Airlines hub

Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:29 pm

By rapidly expanding operations at DFW in 1981, AA hastened the demise of BN less than a year later, in May, 1982. BN had cash issues and Howard Putnam as President made some poor decisions, but the competition from AA put a big squeeze on BN.
The DFW area was rapidly growing in the late 70's/early 80's and AA was able to take advantage of the growing economy, and create a first class, mid America hub there, offering O&D plus great connectivity for East-West traffic flows.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 22429
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: DFW Airport marks 40 years as an American Airlines hub

Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:34 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
PANAMsterdam wrote:
And don’t forget: AA kicked Delta out of their Texas mansion, and then some! DFW = AA.



They coexisted for many years.

Delta had the better hub facility with the tunnel and satellite.

No reason DFW couldn’t have been like ORD…but Delta moving ops to inefficient RJs and internal decisions to right finances led to the plug being pulled.

I recall hubbing on DL at DFW. The fares were cheaper. It was wise of DL to consolidate at ATL, in my opinion. The consolidation made ATL the powerhouse it is today. errr... in 2019? ;)

Lightsaber
8 months without TV. The best decision of my life.
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
Posts: 1238
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:38 pm

Re: DFW Airport marks 40 years as an American Airlines hub

Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:40 pm

WA707atMSP wrote:
AA's June 1, 1973 timetable shows the following flights out of DAL, 7 months before DFW opened:

ACA: 1x 707
BAL: 3x 707
BOS: 1x 727
ORD: 2x DC-10, 3x 707, 1x 727
CVG: 1x 707, 3x 727
CLE: 1x 707, 3x 727
DAY: 1x 707, 1x 727
DTW: 1x 707, 1x 727
ELP: 2x DC-10, 1x 707, 2x 727
IND: 3x 707
LIT: 4x 727
LAX: 1x DC-10, 1x 707, 4x 727
SDF: 2x 727
MEM: 1x DC-10, 4x 727
MEX: 2x 707
BNA: 5x 727
LGA: 2x DC-10, 2x 727
EWR: 1x 707
JFK: 1x 707
OKC: 2x 707, 2x 727
PHL: 2x 707, 1x 727
PHX: 4x 707, 2x 727
PIT: 1x 707, 2x 727
STL: 4x 707, 1x 727
SAT: 1x 707
SAN: 3x 707, 1x 727
SFO: 2x DC-10, 3x 707, 1x 727
TUS: 1x DC-10, 2x 707, 1x 727
TUL: 1x 727
IAD: 1x DC-10, 2x 727

Clearly, Dallas was a hub for AA long before 1981.


Do not forget the "interline" agreements that took place before "Eagle" and "Express" subsidiaries came into existence.

In December, 1974, eight-year-old me and my family flew to my grandparents' 50th wedding anniversary, flying BFL-LAX (United), connecting to LAX-DFW (American), and finally DFW-FSM on the original Frontier. We rode the trAAm from one of the C gates to the A gates and walked out onto the tarmac to get on our CV580. We returned via the also brand-new Kansas City airport, also on Frontier, but connecting to LAX on TWA.

The concept of a "hub" really didn't exist prior to deregulation, as the highly regulated market mandated airlines work together and interline passengers. Braniff #1's creation of a hub at DFW was, from what I have read, was the first time the term was used by an airline, with AA coming soon thereafter.

And as far as an airline getting "chased" from a hub, as some suggest with Delta at DFW, let us not forget AA's "hubs" at BNA and RDU.
 
BHMNONREV
Posts: 1261
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 9:17 am

Re: DFW Airport marks 40 years as an American Airlines hub

Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:46 pm

cedarjet wrote:
Lots of flights at DAL do not a hub make. “Hub” means connectivity. Nearly all of the flights in the 1973 timetable are once or twice daily. That’s just O&D, sorry.


While the flight totals may not scream hub in the current environment, DAL and later DFW was definitely had connectivity well prior to 1981. Check the Dec 1974 timetable, if you were flying E/W or W/E and not on a NS you were going through ORD or DFW. Would you class ORD a hub or no?

http://www.departedflights.com/AA120174p8.html
 
TWFlyGuy
Posts: 454
Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:10 pm

Re: DFW Airport marks 40 years as an American Airlines hub

Tue Jun 22, 2021 4:37 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
DL started pulling resources from DFW to build up ATL. There's no way ATL would be the hub it is today, if DL were hubbing at DFW as well. Ultimately, it worked out for both airlines. DL's departure also opened the door for ULCC to gradually build up a healthy presence, so consumers came out ahead as well.


AA accomplishes having a hub at DFW & CLT (a much smaller city than ATL). They didn't pull assetts from DFW to build ATL, they pulled assets from DFW because they were losing tons of money there. There was a lot of debate about it for a variety of reasons. But what was initially hurting them was having most of the M90s there meaning that on a competing flight with AA DL likely had more seats against the much larger competitor. The only option was to go with CRJs at the time. If they had a 175/220 sized aircraft at the time, you could potentially still see a DL hub. The analysis at the time though was that ATL could take most of the traffic flowing through DFW without making the itinerary circuitous and with a few incremental adds to SLC, you recapture most of the traffic worth fighting for.

Interestingly, maintenance was one of the larger opponents to dropping the hub as apparently the hanger crew was extremely efficient and it allowed for certain aircraft flows schedule wise that made maintenance easier. That didn't make enough sense when balanced against the loses they were facing there especially in a post-9/11 environment.
 
WA707atMSP
Posts: 2023
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:16 pm

Re: DFW Airport marks 40 years as an American Airlines hub

Tue Jun 22, 2021 5:13 pm

cedarjet wrote:
Lots of flights at DAL do not a hub make. “Hub” means connectivity. Nearly all of the flights in the 1973 timetable are once or twice daily. That’s just O&D, sorry.


2/3 of the cities in the 1973 AA timetable have at least 3x day flights from DAL. My original post split each city's flights out by the type of aircraft used on the flights. I thought some people would enjoy, for example, seeing which cities AA flew DC-10s to from DAL in 1973. In hindsight, that was a mistake, and I apologize for the confusion my post caused.

There was no way AA could have filled a DC-10 with local traffic on DFW-TUS or DFW-MEM. As others have said, the timetable entry for almost every city AA had flights to Dallas to, shows connections via DAL to other cities on AA's network. If you go, page by page, through AA's timetable, you CAN see that AA had a lot of connections through DAL.
 
SESGDL
Posts: 2988
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:25 am

Re: DFW Airport marks 40 years as an American Airlines hub

Tue Jun 22, 2021 5:28 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
DL started pulling resources from DFW to build up ATL. There's no way ATL would be the hub it is today, if DL were hubbing at DFW as well. Ultimately, it worked out for both airlines. DL's departure also opened the door for ULCC to gradually build up a healthy presence, so consumers came out ahead as well.


Yes, but DL’s ATL hub has been the largest in the world since the late 80s. It’s not as if ATL wouldn’t be a mega hub today if DL had kept its DFW hub.

The location and O&D mix are the reason that both DFW and ATL are mega hubs (with CLT on the heels of becoming one as well).

Jeremy
 
ScottB
Posts: 7420
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

Re: DFW Airport marks 40 years as an American Airlines hub

Tue Jun 22, 2021 6:12 pm

cedarjet wrote:
Lots of flights at DAL do not a hub make. “Hub” means connectivity. Nearly all of the flights in the 1973 timetable are once or twice daily. That’s just O&D, sorry.


It most certainly was not all O&D. The schedules were timed to allow connections and back in those days, people would accept longer connections because flying was still so much faster than all the other alternatives like trains or buses. You're also not seeing all the interline connectivity which was commonplace 50 years ago; if you were going between two secondary cities which weren't connected by a milk run flight, you were probably going to change carriers at a major airport (for the time) like DAL.
 
ZazuPIT
Posts: 166
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:32 pm

Re: DFW Airport marks 40 years as an American Airlines hub

Tue Jun 22, 2021 6:56 pm

cedarjet wrote:
Lots of flights at DAL do not a hub make. “Hub” means connectivity. Nearly all of the flights in the 1973 timetable are once or twice daily. That’s just O&D, sorry.


I have quite a few AA timetables from the early 70's pre-DFW. There were many cities with multiple flights daily. They were also banked, so they were certainly doing connections.
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 547
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:06 pm

Re: DFW Airport marks 40 years as an American Airlines hub

Tue Jun 22, 2021 9:10 pm

SESGDL wrote:
Yes, but DL’s ATL hub has been the largest in the world since the late 80s. It’s not as if ATL wouldn’t be a mega hub today if DL had kept its DFW hub.


DL heavily pulled resources from DFW in the early 1990s and re-deployed them to ATL. DFW may be the second largest hub in the country, but it's still dwarfed by DL's ATL operation. If DL had maintained both operations, yes ATL would be a mega hub but it's doubtful it'd be as large as it is today.

http://www.departedflights.com/DLDFWhub.html

TWFlyGuy wrote:
[AA accomplishes having a hub at DFW & CLT (a much smaller city than ATL). [/quote[

Yes, and they didn't build up CLT -- they acquired the hub from US.

They didn't pull assetts from DFW to build ATL, they pulled assets from DFW because they were losing tons of money there. [There was a lot of debate about it for a variety of reasons. But what was initially hurting them was having most of the M90s there meaning that on a competing flight with AA DL likely had more seats against the much larger competitor. The only option was to go with CRJs at the time. If they had a 175/220 sized aircraft at the time, you could potentially still see a DL hub. The analysis at the time though was that ATL could take most of the traffic flowing through DFW without making the itinerary circuitous and with a few incremental adds to SLC, you recapture most of the traffic worth fighting for.


That's incorrect - DL gradually drew down DFW heavily in the early 1990s. Former DL ops employees have indicated (on here and elsewhere) it was initially done to fill the void created by EA's demise, and accelerated when ATL flying proved more profitable. Unquestionably, the draw down hurt DL's competitive position against AA and ultimately lead to the hub's demise, but that took well over a decade. BTW - DL operated more domestic widebodies at DFW even into the 2000s than AA. For example, summer 2000 peaked at 17 peak-day widebodies (only four to ATL), including L1011 service to HNL.
 
superjeff
Posts: 1424
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:14 am

Re: DFW Airport marks 40 years as an American Airlines hub

Tue Jun 22, 2021 9:21 pm

PANAMsterdam wrote:
And don’t forget: AA kicked Delta out of their Texas mansion, and then some! DFW = AA.



Don't forget Braniff. In 1974 when DFW opened, until May, 1982, when they collapsed, Braniff was the largest carrier at DFW. American literally overlaid Braniff's route map at DFW with their own flights, which ultimately killed Braniff (and later they did the same with Eastern, Pan Am, etc., but those weren't in Dallas)
 
afcjets
Posts: 3807
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:20 pm

Re: DFW Airport marks 40 years as an American Airlines hub

Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:05 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
BTW - DL operated more domestic widebodies at DFW even into the 2000s than AA. For example, summer 2000 peaked at 17 peak-day widebodies (only four to ATL), including L1011 service to HNL.


It wasn't always that way. Before American announced they were grounding 25 DC10s in early 1993 to reduce costs, they had almost twice the number of widebody flights than Delta. This 1991 OAG guide shows 26 for Delta and 47 for AA.

http://www.departedflights.com/DFW91intro.html
 
WA707atMSP
Posts: 2023
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:16 pm

Re: DFW Airport marks 40 years as an American Airlines hub

Wed Jun 23, 2021 2:17 am

superjeff wrote:
PANAMsterdam wrote:
And don’t forget: AA kicked Delta out of their Texas mansion, and then some! DFW = AA.



Don't forget Braniff. In 1974 when DFW opened, until May, 1982, when they collapsed, Braniff was the largest carrier at DFW. American literally overlaid Braniff's route map at DFW with their own flights, which ultimately killed Braniff (and later they did the same with Eastern, Pan Am, etc., but those weren't in Dallas)


AA did not directly overlay Braniff's route map. Although some of the cities AA added from DFW in 1981 / 82 were served by Braniff, AA added other cities in 1981 / 82 that weren't on Braniff's system, like HSV, BHM, MOB, SHV, BTR, and JAN.
 
n9801f
Posts: 364
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 8:29 am

Re: DFW Airport marks 40 years as an American Airlines hub

Wed Jun 23, 2021 2:24 am

SESGDL wrote:
Yes, but DL’s ATL hub has been the largest in the world since the late 80s.

This just makes AA's achievement much more impressive. AA built DFW up from a much smaller base.

During this period, Delta just coasted on the inertia of great decisions made in the 50's and 60's -- to build the ATL airport and move Delta there.

Meanwhile AA had visionary leadership who were great stewards of the company, and AA led the US industry for much of the time of DFW growth.
 
User avatar
DarkSnowyNight
Posts: 2848
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:59 pm

Re: DFW Airport marks 40 years as an American Airlines hub

Wed Jun 23, 2021 4:06 am

CIDFlyer wrote:

Actually, AA has a pretty good presence on E now completely occupying the satellite terminal and southern third of terminal E.



Owing to an unrelated merger a decade later. Had that not happened, no reason for them to be at E, as it was well covered by 'Airways, DL & NK going into all that.
Well, you know what they say. Whatever doesn't kill you...
... Must not be an MD-11.
 
n9801f
Posts: 364
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 8:29 am

Re: DFW Airport marks 40 years as an American Airlines hub

Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:47 am

superjeff wrote:
PANAMsterdam wrote:
And don’t forget: AA kicked Delta out of their Texas mansion, and then some! DFW = AA.



Don't forget Braniff. In 1974 when DFW opened, until May, 1982, when they collapsed, Braniff was the largest carrier at DFW. American literally overlaid Braniff's route map at DFW with their own flights, which ultimately killed Braniff (and later they did the same with Eastern, Pan Am, etc., but those weren't in Dallas)

Yes, AA was a fierce competitor to Braniff. No question.

But Braniff also seriously hurt itself with its haphazard post-deregulation expansion.

In domestic, instead of focusing on its hub at DFW, Braniff added a spaghetti of unprofitable random, thin linear routes simply because the dormant route authority was available.

Internationally it took on some hugely expensive projects like the 747-SP operation from Mainland to Guam.

Check out the 1980-ish Braniff route maps.
 
CIDFlyer
Posts: 2204
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2005 7:19 am

Re: DFW Airport marks 40 years as an American Airlines hub

Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:44 am

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
CIDFlyer wrote:

Actually, AA has a pretty good presence on E now completely occupying the satellite terminal and southern third of terminal E.



Owing to an unrelated merger a decade later. Had that not happened, no reason for them to be at E, as it was well covered by 'Airways, DL & NK going into all that.


Not necessarily. They didn’t take gates on E until well after the AA/US merger was completed. Also the satellite terminal had been shuttered for years after DL closed the hub. It was reactivated for the TRIP remodel then empty again for a while until AA decided it needed more gates and took it over.
 
TWFlyGuy
Posts: 454
Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:10 pm

Re: DFW Airport marks 40 years as an American Airlines hub

Wed Jun 23, 2021 7:44 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
SESGDL wrote:
Yes, but DL’s ATL hub has been the largest in the world since the late 80s. It’s not as if ATL wouldn’t be a mega hub today if DL had kept its DFW hub.


DL heavily pulled resources from DFW in the early 1990s and re-deployed them to ATL. DFW may be the second largest hub in the country, but it's still dwarfed by DL's ATL operation. If DL had maintained both operations, yes ATL would be a mega hub but it's doubtful it'd be as large as it is today.

http://www.departedflights.com/DLDFWhub.html

TWFlyGuy wrote:
[AA accomplishes having a hub at DFW & CLT (a much smaller city than ATL). [/quote[

Yes, and they didn't build up CLT -- they acquired the hub from US.

They didn't pull assetts from DFW to build ATL, they pulled assets from DFW because they were losing tons of money there. [There was a lot of debate about it for a variety of reasons. But what was initially hurting them was having most of the M90s there meaning that on a competing flight with AA DL likely had more seats against the much larger competitor. The only option was to go with CRJs at the time. If they had a 175/220 sized aircraft at the time, you could potentially still see a DL hub. The analysis at the time though was that ATL could take most of the traffic flowing through DFW without making the itinerary circuitous and with a few incremental adds to SLC, you recapture most of the traffic worth fighting for.


That's incorrect - DL gradually drew down DFW heavily in the early 1990s. Former DL ops employees have indicated (on here and elsewhere) it was initially done to fill the void created by EA's demise, and accelerated when ATL flying proved more profitable. Unquestionably, the draw down hurt DL's competitive position against AA and ultimately lead to the hub's demise, but that took well over a decade. BTW - DL operated more domestic widebodies at DFW even into the 2000s than AA. For example, summer 2000 peaked at 17 peak-day widebodies (only four to ATL), including L1011 service to HNL.


There were many efforts over the years to optimize the DFW hub. The decision to close it up was driven by Subodh Karnik when he took over Planning & Revenue Mgmt. There was a last ditch effort to utilize RJs more and some efforts within RM to drive more traffic over DFW but both proved to not work. His initial stand was that either SLC or DFW had to go as both were underperforming. From a planning perspective, it became easier to take some assets to deploy profitably to ATL & SLC and recapture the majority of traffic. After the decision to close there was a marketing push to those Skymiles members in cities losing service to continue their loyalty through either showing that connecting over ATL was as efficient or new service to SLC was a good replacement.
 
SFOThinker
Posts: 183
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2014 4:13 pm

Re: DFW Airport marks 40 years as an American Airlines hub

Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:03 pm

How much advantage does DFW’s greater size (7 runways vs ATL’s 5) confer on AA’s megahub, compared DL’s at Atlanta? Fewer delays? Larger banks of flights within a given time?
But are costs of taxiing aircraft higher at DFW due to its larger footprint?
I don’t know each hub’s cost per emplanement, but maybe others do.
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 547
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:06 pm

Re: DFW Airport marks 40 years as an American Airlines hub

Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:50 pm

TWFlyGuy wrote:
There were many efforts over the years to optimize the DFW hub. The decision to close it up was driven by Subodh Karnik when he took over Planning & Revenue Mgmt. There was a last ditch effort to utilize RJs more and some efforts within RM to drive more traffic over DFW but both proved to not work. His initial stand was that either SLC or DFW had to go as both were underperforming. From a planning perspective, it became easier to take some assets to deploy profitably to ATL & SLC and recapture the majority of traffic. After the decision to close there was a marketing push to those Skymiles members in cities losing service to continue their loyalty through either showing that connecting over ATL was as efficient or new service to SLC was a good replacement.


DL hubbed in DFW for decades, but you're basing your narrative on its waning days.

As illustrated by the link I included above, DL moved nearly half its capacity from DFW to ATL during the first half of the 1990s. These were down years within the domestic industry, and also years of heavy change and contraction. DL began moving excess capacity (again, this was a recessionary time period) from DFW to ATL to fill in a void created by EA's demise, and help deter competition (namely NW & TW) from considering establishing a hub at ATL. DL was more successful with ATL flying than DFW, so the process accelerated. DL's other hubs (CVG, SLC and MCO) slightly shrunk or remained stagnant during this timeframe, so yes, DFW likely was its weakest operation. AA later used capacity from RDU and BNA to grow DFW / partially fill the void left by DL. There's no question that, by the 2000s, DL lacked the economies of scale to ever compete with AA at DFW. Thus, they refocused their efforts on local traffic, as you noted.

Alas, it's inaccurate to say (by several people within this thread) that 'AA kicked DL to the curb at DFW.' If it hadn't been for the opportunity created at ATL by EA's demise, DL may have kept capacity stagnant at DFW, and would've been better positioned for growth when the DFW economy exploded post-recession. SLC was a money-losing hub that DL twice considered shuttering, and look at it now. None the less, it worked out for both carriers.
 
TWFlyGuy
Posts: 454
Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:10 pm

Re: DFW Airport marks 40 years as an American Airlines hub

Thu Jun 24, 2021 1:25 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
TWFlyGuy wrote:
There were many efforts over the years to optimize the DFW hub. The decision to close it up was driven by Subodh Karnik when he took over Planning & Revenue Mgmt. There was a last ditch effort to utilize RJs more and some efforts within RM to drive more traffic over DFW but both proved to not work. His initial stand was that either SLC or DFW had to go as both were underperforming. From a planning perspective, it became easier to take some assets to deploy profitably to ATL & SLC and recapture the majority of traffic. After the decision to close there was a marketing push to those Skymiles members in cities losing service to continue their loyalty through either showing that connecting over ATL was as efficient or new service to SLC was a good replacement.


DL hubbed in DFW for decades, but you're basing your narrative on its waning days.

As illustrated by the link I included above, DL moved nearly half its capacity from DFW to ATL during the first half of the 1990s. These were down years within the domestic industry, and also years of heavy change and contraction. DL began moving excess capacity (again, this was a recessionary time period) from DFW to ATL to fill in a void created by EA's demise, and help deter competition (namely NW & TW) from considering establishing a hub at ATL. DL was more successful with ATL flying than DFW, so the process accelerated. DL's other hubs (CVG, SLC and MCO) slightly shrunk or remained stagnant during this timeframe, so yes, DFW likely was its weakest operation. AA later used capacity from RDU and BNA to grow DFW / partially fill the void left by DL. There's no question that, by the 2000s, DL lacked the economies of scale to ever compete with AA at DFW. Thus, they refocused their efforts on local traffic, as you noted.

Alas, it's inaccurate to say (by several people within this thread) that 'AA kicked DL to the curb at DFW.' If it hadn't been for the opportunity created at ATL by EA's demise, DL may have kept capacity stagnant at DFW, and would've been better positioned for growth when the DFW economy exploded post-recession. SLC was a money-losing hub that DL twice considered shuttering, and look at it now. None the less, it worked out for both carriers.


I'm basing my narrative using the work I did on the project at the time. And no, AA didn't draw down RDU/BNA to feed DFW...it's well known they drew those down to build MIA...due to EA's demise.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 9639
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: DFW Airport marks 40 years as an American Airlines hub

Thu Jun 24, 2021 2:58 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
[
Alas, it's inaccurate to say (by several people within this thread) that 'AA kicked DL to the curb at DFW.' If it hadn't been for the opportunity created at ATL by EA's demise, DL may have kept capacity stagnant at DFW, and would've been better positioned for growth when the DFW economy exploded post-recession.



Silly revisionist history. EA had been liquidated 13 years before DL closed the DFW hub, even as DL built up CVG. DL could have been adding robust capacity at DFW if it wanted to.
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 547
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:06 pm

Re: DFW Airport marks 40 years as an American Airlines hub

Thu Jun 24, 2021 3:12 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:
[
Alas, it's inaccurate to say (by several people within this thread) that 'AA kicked DL to the curb at DFW.' If it hadn't been for the opportunity created at ATL by EA's demise, DL may have kept capacity stagnant at DFW, and would've been better positioned for growth when the DFW economy exploded post-recession.



Silly revisionist history. EA had been liquidated 13 years before DL closed the DFW hub, even as DL built up CVG. DL could have been adding robust capacity at DFW if it wanted to.


Wrong, Eastern Airlines liquidated in 1991.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Air_Lines

DL moved about half its capacity from DFW to ATL in the early 1990s, as illustrated by Departed Flights.
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 547
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:06 pm

Re: DFW Airport marks 40 years as an American Airlines hub

Thu Jun 24, 2021 3:15 pm

TWFlyGuy wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:
TWFlyGuy wrote:
There were many efforts over the years to optimize the DFW hub. The decision to close it up was driven by Subodh Karnik when he took over Planning & Revenue Mgmt. There was a last ditch effort to utilize RJs more and some efforts within RM to drive more traffic over DFW but both proved to not work. His initial stand was that either SLC or DFW had to go as both were underperforming. From a planning perspective, it became easier to take some assets to deploy profitably to ATL & SLC and recapture the majority of traffic. After the decision to close there was a marketing push to those Skymiles members in cities losing service to continue their loyalty through either showing that connecting over ATL was as efficient or new service to SLC was a good replacement.


DL hubbed in DFW for decades, but you're basing your narrative on its waning days.

As illustrated by the link I included above, DL moved nearly half its capacity from DFW to ATL during the first half of the 1990s. These were down years within the domestic industry, and also years of heavy change and contraction. DL began moving excess capacity (again, this was a recessionary time period) from DFW to ATL to fill in a void created by EA's demise, and help deter competition (namely NW & TW) from considering establishing a hub at ATL. DL was more successful with ATL flying than DFW, so the process accelerated. DL's other hubs (CVG, SLC and MCO) slightly shrunk or remained stagnant during this timeframe, so yes, DFW likely was its weakest operation. AA later used capacity from RDU and BNA to grow DFW / partially fill the void left by DL. There's no question that, by the 2000s, DL lacked the economies of scale to ever compete with AA at DFW. Thus, they refocused their efforts on local traffic, as you noted.

Alas, it's inaccurate to say (by several people within this thread) that 'AA kicked DL to the curb at DFW.' If it hadn't been for the opportunity created at ATL by EA's demise, DL may have kept capacity stagnant at DFW, and would've been better positioned for growth when the DFW economy exploded post-recession. SLC was a money-losing hub that DL twice considered shuttering, and look at it now. None the less, it worked out for both carriers.


I'm basing my narrative using the work I did on the project at the time. And no, AA didn't draw down RDU/BNA to feed DFW...it's well known they drew those down to build MIA...due to EA's demise.


I’m basing my narrative on facts. DFW grew far larger than MIA for AA immediately after RDU and BNA closed.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos