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n9801f
Posts: 462
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 8:29 am

Re: DFW Airport marks 40 years as an American Airlines hub

Thu Jun 24, 2021 5:35 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:
[
Alas, it's inaccurate to say (by several people within this thread) that 'AA kicked DL to the curb at DFW.' If it hadn't been for the opportunity created at ATL by EA's demise, DL may have kept capacity stagnant at DFW, and would've been better positioned for growth when the DFW economy exploded post-recession.



Silly revisionist history. EA had been liquidated 13 years before DL closed the DFW hub, even as DL built up CVG. DL could have been adding robust capacity at DFW if it wanted to.

Maybe read more closely.

The narrative goes that DL began a long, slow slide in DFW when EA collapsed, culminating in hub closure much later.

The last DL schedules at DFW looked absolutely desperate to me. Lots of RJ's. Banks with almost all small cities. Few peak 5 pm departures from DFW.

That kind of schedule was typical of the collapsing hub where the carrier was reluctant to pull the plug and instead tried to keep bulk up while investing minimal resources and minimizing losses.

If DL were still truly strong and successful at DFW at that point, it would have flown more mainline, covered the local business times, and served top O&D's.

The fact that DL didn't do so, plus the character of its final DFW schedules, suggest DL would have lost lots of money by adding the capacity you say was possible.
 
AAIL86
Posts: 502
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:00 am

Re: DFW Airport marks 40 years as an American Airlines hub

Thu Jun 24, 2021 5:35 pm

Didn't DFW pass ATL in hub size during the pandemic?


SESGDL wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:
DL started pulling resources from DFW to build up ATL. There's no way ATL would be the hub it is today, if DL were hubbing at DFW as well. Ultimately, it worked out for both airlines. DL's departure also opened the door for ULCC to gradually build up a healthy presence, so consumers came out ahead as well.


Yes, but DL’s ATL hub has been the largest in the world since the late 80s. It’s not as if ATL wouldn’t be a mega hub today if DL had kept its DFW hub.

The location and O&D mix are the reason that both DFW and ATL are mega hubs (with CLT on the heels of becoming one as well).

Jeremy
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 721
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:06 pm

Re: DFW Airport marks 40 years as an American Airlines hub

Thu Jun 24, 2021 5:44 pm

AAIL86 wrote:
Didn't DFW pass ATL in hub size during the pandemic?


SESGDL wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:
DL started pulling resources from DFW to build up ATL. There's no way ATL would be the hub it is today, if DL were hubbing at DFW as well. Ultimately, it worked out for both airlines. DL's departure also opened the door for ULCC to gradually build up a healthy presence, so consumers came out ahead as well.


Yes, but DL’s ATL hub has been the largest in the world since the late 80s. It’s not as if ATL wouldn’t be a mega hub today if DL had kept its DFW hub.

The location and O&D mix are the reason that both DFW and ATL are mega hubs (with CLT on the heels of becoming one as well).

Jeremy


Do you truly believe that’s a fair representation or benchmark?
 
AAIL86
Posts: 502
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:00 am

Re: DFW Airport marks 40 years as an American Airlines hub

Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:05 pm

Just asked if its was true!

WidebodyPTV wrote:
AAIL86 wrote:
Didn't DFW pass ATL in hub size during the pandemic?


SESGDL wrote:

Yes, but DL’s ATL hub has been the largest in the world since the late 80s. It’s not as if ATL wouldn’t be a mega hub today if DL had kept its DFW hub.

The location and O&D mix are the reason that both DFW and ATL are mega hubs (with CLT on the heels of becoming one as well).

Jeremy


Do you truly believe that’s a fair representation or benchmark?
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 721
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:06 pm

Re: DFW Airport marks 40 years as an American Airlines hub

Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:13 pm

AAIL86 wrote:
Just asked if its was true!

WidebodyPTV wrote:
AAIL86 wrote:
Didn't DFW pass ATL in hub size during the pandemic?




Do you truly believe that’s a fair representation or benchmark?


It’s kinda like asking if more people visited Six Flags Over Texas last year than Disneyland (they probably did).
 
superjeff
Posts: 1450
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:14 am

Re: DFW Airport marks 40 years as an American Airlines hub

Fri Jun 25, 2021 5:59 pm

WA707atMSP wrote:
superjeff wrote:
PANAMsterdam wrote:
And don’t forget: AA kicked Delta out of their Texas mansion, and then some! DFW = AA.



Don't forget Braniff. In 1974 when DFW opened, until May, 1982, when they collapsed, Braniff was the largest carrier at DFW. American literally overlaid Braniff's route map at DFW with their own flights, which ultimately killed Braniff (and later they did the same with Eastern, Pan Am, etc., but those weren't in Dallas)


AA did not directly overlay Braniff's route map. Although some of the cities AA added from DFW in 1981 / 82 were served by Braniff, AA added other cities in 1981 / 82 that weren't on Braniff's system, like HSV, BHM, MOB, SHV, BTR, and JAN.


Deregulation started in 1978. American started their build up there when they moved their HQ from New York. Braniff expanded immediately after deregulation (they basically grabbed every single available market without regard to any business need, specifically to be better able to compete with American). It backfired for a number of reasons, largely, IMHO, due to the Iran Hostage situation which caused a run up in fuel costs and a recession in the U.S. But American went after them to Hawaii, West Texas, etc., and Braniff added DFW-SFO/LAX/LAS/BOS/PHL, etc.
 
superjeff
Posts: 1450
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:14 am

Re: DFW Airport marks 40 years as an American Airlines hub

Fri Jun 25, 2021 6:03 pm

n9801f wrote:
superjeff wrote:
PANAMsterdam wrote:
And don’t forget: AA kicked Delta out of their Texas mansion, and then some! DFW = AA.



Don't forget Braniff. In 1974 when DFW opened, until May, 1982, when they collapsed, Braniff was the largest carrier at DFW. American literally overlaid Braniff's route map at DFW with their own flights, which ultimately killed Braniff (and later they did the same with Eastern, Pan Am, etc., but those weren't in Dallas)

Yes, AA was a fierce competitor to Braniff. No question.

But Braniff also seriously hurt itself with its haphazard post-deregulation expansion.

In domestic, instead of focusing on its hub at DFW, Braniff added a spaghetti of unprofitable random, thin linear routes simply because the dormant route authority was available.

Internationally it took on some hugely expensive projects like the 747-SP operation from Mainland to Guam.

Check out the 1980-ish Braniff route maps.


I fully agree with you. But there really was a rationale there. Braniff was the 9th largest "trunk" carrier with deregulation and felt that they had to get big quick to survive. Harding Lawrence believed that deregulation would not last and he had employees lined up all night in front of the appropriate offices in Washington (I am not sure if it was still the CAB) to grab all available routes, which they did. They had heavy international experience, both to Europe and South America at the time, and had operated a successful mlitary charter operation during the Vietnam War. They had a pretty efficient fleet for that time, with mostly 727's; if not for the other factors, they could have been able to retreat a bit and survive. But history is already written :-)
 
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DarkSnowyNight
Posts: 2956
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:59 pm

Re: DFW Airport marks 40 years as an American Airlines hub

Sat Jun 26, 2021 1:23 am

CIDFlyer wrote:
DarkSnowyNight wrote:
CIDFlyer wrote:

Actually, AA has a pretty good presence on E now completely occupying the satellite terminal and southern third of terminal E.



Owing to an unrelated merger a decade later. Had that not happened, no reason for them to be at E, as it was well covered by 'Airways, DL & NK going into all that.


Not necessarily. They didn’t take gates on E until well after the AA/US merger was completed. Also the satellite terminal had been shuttered for years after DL closed the hub. It was reactivated for the TRIP remodel then empty again for a while until AA decided it needed more gates and took it over.



But the question is would any of that have happened at all if US had not decided to take on AA with a merger? Doubtful. DL & NK were both increasing their presence in Term E in the years leading up to that. And AA simply would have had the frequency needs.

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