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Shakinthefat
Posts: 67
Joined: Thu May 07, 2020 6:56 pm

Re: WN Wants To Attract Business Travelers

Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:22 pm

bob75013 wrote:
Shakinthefat wrote:
Lootess wrote:

Delta just won the JD Power award as the #1 airline in customer satisfaction, yes they are superior.

Economy+ could be feasible, even if it's just the first 3-4 rows to account for A15, and they could still keep the same boarding process.

Free bags are overrated, business travelers don't check often, and even then they have elite status and get international free bags too. Delta was able to fight off Southwest in ATL easily because Richard answered the media question as "just get the Delta AMEX and it's not a problem". No one has to pay for bags if they don't want to.

True....Delta AMEX is the key for me. Ancillary Baggage fees bring in so much money, it’s hard to believe WN continues with bags fly free program.
If WN started collecting bag fees how many WN loyal customers leave? Not many...where would they go?
https://thepointsguy.com/news/airline-b ... fees-2019/



Since WN's profit margins regularly exceeds those of it's baggage fee charging competitors -- ie more profitable --why in the heck would it want to alienate it's customers by charging for bags?


$5.8 billion in baggage 2019 for all US airlines and WN says....We don’t want a piece of that pie because some passengers will stop flying us and profit margins decline. Ok, got to follow the analytics.
 
WNCrew
Posts: 1006
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 11:22 pm

Re: WN Wants To Attract Business Travelers

Fri Jul 02, 2021 3:02 pm

Iloveboeing wrote:
https://thepointsguy.com/news/exclusive-southwest-wants-business-travelers-and-will-double-down-on-them-as-it-recovers-from-the-pandemic/


WN has historically not been a business airline. They were focused on offering low fares to families and making air travel more affordable. They were unconventional and that’s what people loved about them.

Now they’re trying to be more “business-like.” You can tell with the flight attendants’ new attire, with the men wearing suits and ties and the women wearing more dresses and pantsuits. What happened to the polos and khakis?

I pray they don’t start charging for bags.


You DO realize that shorts and polos were only part of the airline's brand for a portion of their history? After hot-pants it was suits, ties and dresses for many years "formal wear" on weekdays and "fun wear" only on weekends. Many people assume WN has always been khakis and polos but that's simply not true.
 
bob75013
Posts: 1092
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:05 pm

Re: WN Wants To Attract Business Travelers

Fri Jul 02, 2021 3:17 pm

Shakinthefat wrote:
FlyPNS1 wrote:
boe757300 wrote:
WN can "want" to attract business customers. IMO, they catering to a small portion of the business clientele. A majority of the serious business travelers are going to care about all the amenities like lounges, premium cabin, upgrades, etc. The fact they push SWABIZ so hard is laughable.


But here’s the thing…WN has regularly carried 35% of its traffic as business travelers. The legacy UA/DL/AA have historically run no more than about 50% business passengers. So despite the lounges, international network, first class and assigned seating, it’s not really giving the legacies that big of a boost over WN.

Clearly WN isn’t carrying just a small portion of business travelers.

Where is this info sourced, been looking?



Let's turn that around. People here are claiming that WN does not carry a significant number of business travelers.
Where is this info sourced, been looking?
 
mcdu
Posts: 1696
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:23 am

Re: WN Wants To Attract Business Travelers

Fri Jul 02, 2021 3:38 pm

bob75013 wrote:
Shakinthefat wrote:
FlyPNS1 wrote:

But here’s the thing…WN has regularly carried 35% of its traffic as business travelers. The legacy UA/DL/AA have historically run no more than about 50% business passengers. So despite the lounges, international network, first class and assigned seating, it’s not really giving the legacies that big of a boost over WN.

Clearly WN isn’t carrying just a small portion of business travelers.

Where is this info sourced, been looking?



Let's turn that around. People here are claiming that WN does not carry a significant number of business travelers.
Where is this info sourced, been looking?


Have you seen a SWA gate area? That’s a pretty good source. Plus the fact they are all in on leisure travel in markets and advertising, “want to get away?” is not aimed at corporate clients.
 
bob75013
Posts: 1092
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Re: WN Wants To Attract Business Travelers

Fri Jul 02, 2021 3:43 pm

mcdu wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
Shakinthefat wrote:
Where is this info sourced, been looking?



Let's turn that around. People here are claiming that WN does not carry a significant number of business travelers.
Where is this info sourced, been looking?


Have you seen a SWA gate area? That’s a pretty good source. Plus the fact they are all in on leisure travel in markets and advertising, “want to get away?” is not aimed at corporate clients.


Sorry but your view of a Southwest, gate area (probably in Hawaii) doesn't provide proof of anything..

Where's the hard data?
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 15270
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: WN Wants To Attract Business Travelers

Fri Jul 02, 2021 3:46 pm

bob75013 wrote:
mcdu wrote:
bob75013 wrote:


Let's turn that around. People here are claiming that WN does not carry a significant number of business travelers.
Where is this info sourced, been looking?


Have you seen a SWA gate area? That’s a pretty good source. Plus the fact they are all in on leisure travel in markets and advertising, “want to get away?” is not aimed at corporate clients.


Sorry but your view of a Southwest, gate area (probably in Hawaii) doesn't provide proof of anything..

Where's the hard data?


I guess I'm confused about the "want to get away part." I receive advertising aimed at leisure travel from all three legacies. In fact, as I write this I have (on a.net) banner adds from DL for leisure travel, and it just changed to a banner ad from AA for travel to Rapid City, which is hardly a big business destination. Doesn't everyone do a lot more customer-facing marketing on leisure than on business?
 
2KINF
Posts: 7
Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2019 5:04 pm

Re: WN Wants To Attract Business Travelers

Fri Jul 02, 2021 4:08 pm

Gosh, there's a lot of waffle in this thread. As someone mentioned earlier - check out a gate in area in Midway or Baltimore and you'll see how many business travelers there are. Be sure of this - Southwest has an excellent yield management system, their fare structure on any given flight changes by the milisecond. Power source or not, they'll fill their planes when they have the best routing/connection price available. Savvy business people know when to buy an early bird and get a suitable seat.
 
bob75013
Posts: 1092
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:05 pm

Re: WN Wants To Attract Business Travelers

Fri Jul 02, 2021 5:18 pm

2KINF wrote:
Gosh, there's a lot of waffle in this thread. As someone mentioned earlier - check out a gate in area in Midway or Baltimore and you'll see how many business travelers there are. Be sure of this - Southwest has an excellent yield management system, their fare structure on any given flight changes by the milisecond. Power source or not, they'll fill their planes when they have the best routing/connection price available. Savvy business people know when to buy an early bird and get a suitable seat.



I guess you were never visited Hobby or Love Field pre Covid. There was a reason for 20+ flights a day each way between the two, and it sure wasn't leisure travelers.
Last edited by bob75013 on Fri Jul 02, 2021 5:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
bob75013
Posts: 1092
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:05 pm

Re: WN Wants To Attract Business Travelers

Fri Jul 02, 2021 5:38 pm

2KINF wrote:
Gosh, there's a lot of waffle in this thread. As someone mentioned earlier - check out a gate in area in Midway or Baltimore and you'll see how many business travelers there are. Be sure of this - Southwest has an excellent yield management system, their fare structure on any given flight changes by the milisecond. Power source or not, they'll fill their planes when they have the best routing/connection price available. Savvy business people know when to buy an early bird and get a suitable seat.


Why would business travelers buy EB?

If you are A-List you probably get no worse than A45 and your choice of a bunch of aisle and window seats.

EB boarding slots are allocated in the order purchased. So a business traveler who buys week out will get a boarding position not only behind the A-Listers but all those people who bought EB over the last 6 months

If you get a crappy boarding slot , you can buy an A1 - A15 slot at the gate for thirty bucks or so, and get on board before everyone else
 
Chemist
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Re: WN Wants To Attract Business Travelers

Fri Jul 02, 2021 6:34 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Chemist wrote:
Southwest has shown they can be profitable for decades with their current formula. The issue is whether they can take a bit more slice of the business market while not alienating other users of their network in a way that turns them into just another legacy with wild swings of profit and massive losses. They're never going to be a full 3-class/multiple aircraft types/lounge/charge for checked bags airline unless they want to perform like those airlines - which haven't been nearly as financially successful as WN has been.


That's a rationalization that ignores a changing market. Spirit, Frontier and Allegiant have been very successful - and have a much lower cost base than WN. WN has pretty good total cost productivity (being all mainline helps that) but it fundamentally has AA/DL/UA wages without AA/DL/UA yields.



Well we will see, won't we?
I don't see chasing the majors as a great idea. Differentiation is what has kept WN profitable for like 50 years.
 
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OA412
Moderator
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Re: WN Wants To Attract Business Travelers

Fri Jul 02, 2021 8:43 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
mcdu wrote:

Have you seen a SWA gate area? That’s a pretty good source. Plus the fact they are all in on leisure travel in markets and advertising, “want to get away?” is not aimed at corporate clients.


Sorry but your view of a Southwest, gate area (probably in Hawaii) doesn't provide proof of anything..

Where's the hard data?


I guess I'm confused about the "want to get away part." I receive advertising aimed at leisure travel from all three legacies. In fact, as I write this I have (on a.net) banner adds from DL for leisure travel, and it just changed to a banner ad from AA for travel to Rapid City, which is hardly a big business destination. Doesn't everyone do a lot more customer-facing marketing on leisure than on business?

Indeed, whenever I click on any of the big 3 sites, they’re always advertising leisure travel. Not sure how that’s different from offerings wanna get away fares, particularly since they also offer business select fares.
 
wnflyguy
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Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:58 pm

Re: WN Wants To Attract Business Travelers

Fri Jul 02, 2021 8:51 pm

With WN going after business travel this why they will make a competitive offer for the 7 JFK slots B6/AA have to sale.
They will also probably return to EWR in a year to two but at a much smaller scale than the 18 flights they had before to give the business passengers that additional NY gateway.

Flyguy
 
mcdu
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Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:23 am

Re: WN Wants To Attract Business Travelers

Fri Jul 02, 2021 9:52 pm

OA412 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
bob75013 wrote:

Sorry but your view of a Southwest, gate area (probably in Hawaii) doesn't provide proof of anything..

Where's the hard data?


I guess I'm confused about the "want to get away part." I receive advertising aimed at leisure travel from all three legacies. In fact, as I write this I have (on a.net) banner adds from DL for leisure travel, and it just changed to a banner ad from AA for travel to Rapid City, which is hardly a big business destination. Doesn't everyone do a lot more customer-facing marketing on leisure than on business?

Indeed, whenever I click on any of the big 3 sites, they’re always advertising leisure travel. Not sure how that’s different from offerings wanna get away fares, particularly since they also offer business select fares.


I would say the big difference is those click ads are targeted by your search and internet activity. It isn’t the overall company advertising campaign. Want to get away, is the face of SWA in TV and print. It says vacation, escape etc. it doesn’t reflect a business traveler or serious niche. SWA embraces this image, from the khakis, polos, schtick with the PA. It doesn’t exude a business image. Nothing wrong with that but it may not get you the clientele you are looking for with deep pockets.
 
Shakinthefat
Posts: 67
Joined: Thu May 07, 2020 6:56 pm

Re: WN Wants To Attract Business Travelers

Sat Jul 03, 2021 2:10 am

bob75013 wrote:
Shakinthefat wrote:
bob75013 wrote:


Since WN's profit margins regularly exceeds those of it's baggage fee charging competitors -- ie more profitable --why in the heck would it want to alienate it's customers by charging for bags?


$5.8 billion in baggage 2019 for all US airlines and WN says....We don’t want a piece of that pie because some passengers will stop flying us and profit margins decline. Ok, got to follow the analytics.



Southwest does not need your help in figuring out how to maximize profit. It does that quite well on it's own

I’m not offering help, I offered an opinion, see the difference Bobby?
 
Wneast
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Re: WN Wants To Attract Business Travelers

Sat Jul 03, 2021 2:19 am

wnflyguy wrote:
With WN going after business travel this why they will make a competitive offer for the 7 JFK slots B6/AA have to sale.
They will also probably return to EWR in a year to two but at a much smaller scale than the 18 flights they had before to give the business passengers that additional NY gateway.

Flyguy

When are the slots going to be secured by WN or another airline any time soon ?
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: WN Wants To Attract Business Travelers

Sat Jul 03, 2021 3:48 am

wnflyguy wrote:
With WN going after business travel this why they will make a competitive offer for the 7 JFK slots B6/AA have to sale.
They will also probably return to EWR in a year to two but at a much smaller scale than the 18 flights they had before to give the business passengers that additional NY gateway.

Flyguy


WN really needs to return to EWR. AUS, SAT, and other cities outside the LGA perimeter can't have non-stops to LGA. Non-stop flights can get to EWR in just a little over 3 hours from AUS. A connecting itenerary on bookable on WN's website could take 5 to 8 hours. Direct flights where there is a stop but no change of plane could take 4 hours.
 
tphuang
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Re: WN Wants To Attract Business Travelers

Sat Jul 03, 2021 4:05 am

flyingclrs727 wrote:
wnflyguy wrote:
With WN going after business travel this why they will make a competitive offer for the 7 JFK slots B6/AA have to sale.
They will also probably return to EWR in a year to two but at a much smaller scale than the 18 flights they had before to give the business passengers that additional NY gateway.

Flyguy


WN really needs to return to EWR. AUS, SAT, and other cities outside the LGA perimeter can't have non-stops to LGA. Non-stop flights can get to EWR in just a little over 3 hours from AUS. A connecting itenerary on bookable on WN's website could take 5 to 8 hours. Direct flights where there is a stop but no change of plane could take 4 hours.


There are reasons why WN left EWR and is not in JFK. It just performs terribly in these markets. It's really weak in transcon and international market. It has minimal point of sale in NYC.
 
jetmatt777
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Re: WN Wants To Attract Business Travelers

Sat Jul 03, 2021 4:34 am

So far the only example this thread has created of a business market WN excels at is DAL-HOU. So 1 market between their two hubs means WN is a business airline. That is a unique city pair that they can take advantage of. A 25 minute flight where the lack of amenities don’t matter.

How many business passengers are they flying between New York and LA? SFO?

They are good at what they do, but they are a stubborn airline with an identity crisis. They want the premium fares the legacies get without any of the premium products. They will need to figure that one out, just like it took them years to figure out their IT infrastructure was ran off of vacuum tubes and slide rules. They won’t ever change or think of the future until the future has left them behind. I wish them luck, but they have needed an attitude adjustment for about 20 years now. Running off the glory days of the company only can take them so far. They need to think for the future instead of holding on to the past.
 
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CarlosSi
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Re: WN Wants To Attract Business Travelers

Sat Jul 03, 2021 5:01 am

They've had and got a nice operation going as many have stated (other than the massive delays they've had recently). It's not for everyone but for those who fly it like myself in the past I've enjoyed it.
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: WN Wants To Attract Business Travelers

Sat Jul 03, 2021 5:40 am

jetmatt777 wrote:
So far the only example this thread has created of a business market WN excels at is DAL-HOU. So 1 market between their two hubs means WN is a business airline. That is a unique city pair that they can take advantage of. A 25 minute flight where the lack of amenities don’t matter.

How many business passengers are they flying between New York and LA? SFO?

They are good at what they do, but they are a stubborn airline with an identity crisis. They want the premium fares the legacies get without any of the premium products. They will need to figure that one out, just like it took them years to figure out their IT infrastructure was ran off of vacuum tubes and slide rules. They won’t ever change or think of the future until the future has left them behind. I wish them luck, but they have needed an attitude adjustment for about 20 years now. Running off the glory days of the company only can take them so far. They need to think for the future instead of holding on to the past.


It wasn't just HOU-DAL that made WN successful with the business market in Texas. It connected all the major cities in Texas together through HOU and DAL. My home airport, CRP benefitted quite a bit. Interstate 37 connecting to San Antonio and the rest of the Interstate Highway system was not completed till 1981. There wasn't even a 4 lane divided highway connecting all the way to Houston til 1987. Driving to either San Antonio or Houston when WN came to CRP took at least an hour longer than it does today. There was more emphasis on the shorter haul market than there has been since 9/11/2001. There was less leakage of passengers to airports in other cities due to the difficulty in driving. Walk-up fares weren't as expensive as they are today. It made sense to fly 200 miles to get to Houston and be in downtown Houston before others who lived in Houston starting at the same time could get from from their homes to downtown.

Business travel isn't all about high level executives flying coast to coast for business meetings. My father was an independent oil explorationist who was promoting oil and gas deals mostly in Houston and Dallas. The supporting documents required for his presentations absolutely could not fit in just a brief case. He absolutely needed checked luggage.
 
subramak1
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Re: WN Wants To Attract Business Travelers

Sat Jul 03, 2021 6:19 am

tax1k wrote:
OA412 wrote:
tax1k wrote:
One of the most disingenuous pieces of advertising is the “no change fee” silliness. If you travel regularly on a legacy carrier you probably have free same day changes anyway. And they don’t charge a change fee -just the increase in price on a same day ticket. It’s an abomination.

How is it disingenuous? WN NEVER charges a change fee, regardless of how often you fly them. For the vast majority of travelers who aren’t regular fliers, legacies will charge a change fee (at least that was the case pre-COVID). Nothing disingenuous about WNs claim.


That’s semantics. It costs money (hundreds of dollars) to change from a 4 pm flight to a 1 pm flight. What do I care what they call it? Rebooking fee? Free snack fee?


Have you travelled by southwest? I have often been able to get on a earlier flight if space was available. No penalties

Subramanian
 
Chemist
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Re: WN Wants To Attract Business Travelers

Sat Jul 03, 2021 7:59 am

I've flown between LA area and Bay Area on WN probably over a 100 times in the past decade. On Monday mornings the flights are probably 80% business travelers. Almost everybody is boarding with a boarding pass on their phone. At other times of the day/week, on leisure routes (to say Las Vegas), I see lots of paper boarding passes. Anecdotal, but it's not all DAL-HOU. LA area to SF area is a huge business market and WN flies tons of business travelers on those routes as they have SFO, OAK, SJC, even SMF on the north end, and LAX, BUR, LGB, SNA and even SAN on the southern end - and almost every combination of flights between any northern and any southern airport. California is the fifth largest economy in the world (as compared to countries) and WN has a lot of the intra-California business.
 
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BMWdrvr75
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Re: WN Wants To Attract Business Travelers

Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:46 am

jetmatt777 wrote:
So far the only example this thread has created of a business market WN excels at is DAL-HOU. So 1 market between their two hubs means WN is a business airline. That is a unique city pair that they can take advantage of. A 25 minute flight where the lack of amenities don’t matter.

How many business passengers are they flying between New York and LA? SFO?

They are good at what they do, but they are a stubborn airline with an identity crisis. They want the premium fares the legacies get without any of the premium products. They will need to figure that one out, just like it took them years to figure out their IT infrastructure was ran off of vacuum tubes and slide rules. They won’t ever change or think of the future until the future has left them behind. I wish them luck, but they have needed an attitude adjustment for about 20 years now. Running off the glory days of the company only can take them so far. They need to think for the future instead of holding on to the past.



BINGO!!!!! and we have a winner, best way to describe Southwest Airlines in 2021!!!!
 
bob75013
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Re: WN Wants To Attract Business Travelers

Sat Jul 03, 2021 12:02 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:

How many business passengers are they flying between New York and LA? SFO?
.


When did NY to CA become the only important business route?
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 15270
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: WN Wants To Attract Business Travelers

Sat Jul 03, 2021 12:08 pm

mcdu wrote:
OA412 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:

I guess I'm confused about the "want to get away part." I receive advertising aimed at leisure travel from all three legacies. In fact, as I write this I have (on a.net) banner adds from DL for leisure travel, and it just changed to a banner ad from AA for travel to Rapid City, which is hardly a big business destination. Doesn't everyone do a lot more customer-facing marketing on leisure than on business?

Indeed, whenever I click on any of the big 3 sites, they’re always advertising leisure travel. Not sure how that’s different from offerings wanna get away fares, particularly since they also offer business select fares.


I would say the big difference is those click ads are targeted by your search and internet activity. It isn’t the overall company advertising campaign. Want to get away, is the face of SWA in TV and print. It says vacation, escape etc. it doesn’t reflect a business traveler or serious niche. SWA embraces this image, from the khakis, polos, schtick with the PA. It doesn’t exude a business image. Nothing wrong with that but it may not get you the clientele you are looking for with deep pockets.


How many current “overall company advertising campaigns” can you name? It’s no longer 1995 where saturating tv campaigns are the norm. Anyone who lived in Chicago or Indy in the 90s can almost certainly still sing the ubiquitous ATA jingle even though TZ has been gone for almost two decades.

The only airline I can think of that exudes business with its “old media” advertising is actually Delta, but that may be because of the number of billboards they have in Atlanta. In Chicago, UA has had that billboard on the outbound Kennedy around River Road for decades but it tends more toward advertising exotic destinations than anything that is directly relevant to business travel.
 
MIflyer12
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Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: WN Wants To Attract Business Travelers

Sat Jul 03, 2021 1:58 pm

bob75013 wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:

How many business passengers are they flying between New York and LA? SFO?
.


When did NY to CA become the only important business route?


NYC-LAX isn't the only important business route, but it is the highest revenue domestic business route, and WN has nothing n/s on it. Nothing.

It's not just DAL-HOU for WN, but some intra-California routes, too. Yet there are many, many holes: NYC-CHI shows 3x for 8/9. DL is 12x; AA is 12x; UA is 12x. Even B6 is 8X, departing from all three major NYC airports. On how many business routes is WN the frequency leader? Not many at all, I would posit.

Jack Welch said, 'If you don't have a competitive advantage, don't compete.' Legacies substantially took away the no change fee advantage. Two bags free has very little value for business travelers -- I can count the number of times I checked a bag on a domestic business trip in the last thirty years on the fingers of two hands, and, if it's business, the company is paying for bags, anyway. One thing the company (a Dow Jones Industrial Avg firm) won't pay is SDC fees (waived for me as a lifetime elite) or buy-up fare to depart earlier.

I understand WN wants to improve yields, just as with United Next UA wants to cut CASM. However, they need to provide the product(s).
 
wnflyguy
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Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:58 pm

Re: WN Wants To Attract Business Travelers

Sat Jul 03, 2021 2:24 pm

Wneast wrote:
wnflyguy wrote:
With WN going after business travel this why they will make a competitive offer for the 7 JFK slots B6/AA have to sale.
They will also probably return to EWR in a year to two but at a much smaller scale than the 18 flights they had before to give the business passengers that additional NY gateway.

Flyguy

When are the slots going to be secured by WN or another airline any time soon ?

Because of the current Covid Slot waver they have until October 1 , 2021 to sale the slots.

Flyguy
 
AMALH747430
Posts: 263
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2014 9:29 pm

Re: WN Wants To Attract Business Travelers

Sat Jul 03, 2021 3:59 pm

BMWdrvr75 wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:
So far the only example this thread has created of a business market WN excels at is DAL-HOU. So 1 market between their two hubs means WN is a business airline. That is a unique city pair that they can take advantage of. A 25 minute flight where the lack of amenities don’t matter.

How many business passengers are they flying between New York and LA? SFO?

They are good at what they do, but they are a stubborn airline with an identity crisis. They want the premium fares the legacies get without any of the premium products. They will need to figure that one out, just like it took them years to figure out their IT infrastructure was ran off of vacuum tubes and slide rules. They won’t ever change or think of the future until the future has left them behind. I wish them luck, but they have needed an attitude adjustment for about 20 years now. Running off the glory days of the company only can take them so far. They need to think for the future instead of holding on to the past.



BINGO!!!!! and we have a winner, best way to describe Southwest Airlines in 2021!!!!


I second BMWdrvr75! This is the perfect way to describe WN right now. They dusted off their post 9/11 and post ‘08 playbook and put it to work but didn’t appreciate the major differences. Before the MAX was grounded WN already had a fleet shortage so when the MAX came back they were still at a disadvantage. Then you throw in all the buyouts, retraining, and new hiring/training that needs to be done and you have a completely different ballgame. Stubborn WN said “since everyone LUVs us so much we’re going into COS, we’re going into MIA, we’re going into BZN, etc… That worked fine until they started waking up the rest of their network, then BOOM, right back to 2019 when they didn’t have enough planes to operate their planned schedule after the classics were retired.

Look at WNs delays and cancellations at DEN vs. UA or the same thing at ORD/MDW. It’s staggering, even when you add the express carriers in. Yet their PR spin machine keeps telling travelers “WEATHER, WEATHER, WEATHER” like we’re not smart enough to look at a departure board (like I did at DEN this week) and see that the “Cancelled” and “Delayed” are noticeably connected to WN flights and not so much the competition. AA is being up front with their customers about their over scheduling and even though they’re not my favorite, I appreciate that. I don’t know how this situation improves because Gary said they won’t have enough aircraft to operate their schedule into 2023.

Which brings up the next point. WN has been good for SOME business travel up to April of 2020. You have to go between Dallas and Houston frequently, that’s your airline. You need to fly between the LA basin and the Bay Area frequently, that’s your airline. Chicago and NYC, Dallas, or Houston, eeeh, maybe. NYC and the LA basin, the Bay Area or Seattle, no way. If they don’t have enough aircraft to operate they’re current schedule, how will they expand into these business heavy markets without discontinuing flying that is core to their current business model?

Then there’s the current business model. Look, I get all of you that say “why should Southwest do anything different when they’ve been successful all these years?” Well, here’s the thing, times change, and the businesses that survive are the ones that adapt. Southwest ain’t doing so good at adapting right now. When I was in business school 2001-04 one of my Management profs said “everybody loves Southwest because they run on time and they don’t lose your luggage.” I would also add no change fees and go forward a few years and I’d add “bags fly free.”Well, that’s certainly not the case right now. First, the change fee playing field has been leveled. Second, they are an operational nightmare. They’ve bit off more than they can chew and consequently, the things that made them pleasant to fly have gone out the window. The fact that they didn’t offer power ports or an extra legroom economy section to move up to didn’t matter as much when they were “old reliable.”

Which brings up the final point. WN’s hard and soft products were built around serving that people just want reliable transportation at a good VALUE. Not necessarily cheap but a good value. They excelled at pleasing those customers which included a fair amount of short and medium haul domestic business customers. Power ports and extra legroom don’t matter as much on sub 2 hour flights. I generally want the option to ride in a little more comfort but I would use WN to fly AMA-LAS because for an hour and 50 mins, a gussied up evolve 73G was ok. However, on longer flights, it starts to become an issue. The longest WN flights I’ve taken are DAL-BOS and RDU-LAS. On those longer flights, the lack of amenities shows. No power to recharge my devices (meaning I have to remember to carry a power bank and keep it charged) no option to upgrade to more legroom (you can sometimes alleviate this buy buying early bird or BE but that doesn’t mean you’ll be one of the first 11 and if it’s a through flight, that goes out the window as passengers continuing will have moved up to those few seats available on a WN aircraft). WN also hasn’t been themselves when it comes to onboard service in the pandemic era. UA still offered me their full array of sealed nonalcoholic beverages of choice, and in November brought the coffee back while WN was still “just water.” Then they added Coke, Diet Coke, and 7up and came up with a goofy ordering system that resulted in FAs and passengers slipping off their masks to communicate much more so that any of the 25 UA flights I took in that same period. A few weeks ago, several other lawyers here in Amarillo and I were at a happy hour and the subject of Southwest came up. ALL of us agreed that they’re just not a pleasant travel experience for flights over about 1 1/2 - 2 hours and they don’t provide a good product that allows productivity on a longer trip or a trip with a connection.

Let me be clear, I am not saying that WN is going out of business any time soon. I’m not saying that they won’t continue to carry more domestic passengers than any of the 3 legacies. I’m just saying that there have been MANY companies at the top of their game that have failed to adapt and been eclipsed by someone else. Southwest has the attitude that “this is what we do, take it or leave it.” Again, that doesn’t mean that they’re going to go broke, but it does mean, that there will be travelers on some routes that they want to expand into that will say “no thanks.” If I’m on a longer business trip, the lounge to work in, the power ports to keep my devices up and running, and the extra room do make a difference. It compounds when the airline isn’t reliable and I’m stuck at the airport or on the tarmac longer.
 
WNCrew
Posts: 1006
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 11:22 pm

Re: WN Wants To Attract Business Travelers

Sat Jul 03, 2021 4:14 pm

So well stated! They have made some short-sighted decisions that will now prevent them from being able to adapt their hard OR soft product.

AMALH747430 wrote:
BMWdrvr75 wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:
So far the only example this thread has created of a business market WN excels at is DAL-HOU. So 1 market between their two hubs means WN is a business airline. That is a unique city pair that they can take advantage of. A 25 minute flight where the lack of amenities don’t matter.

How many business passengers are they flying between New York and LA? SFO?

They are good at what they do, but they are a stubborn airline with an identity crisis. They want the premium fares the legacies get without any of the premium products. They will need to figure that one out, just like it took them years to figure out their IT infrastructure was ran off of vacuum tubes and slide rules. They won’t ever change or think of the future until the future has left them behind. I wish them luck, but they have needed an attitude adjustment for about 20 years now. Running off the glory days of the company only can take them so far. They need to think for the future instead of holding on to the past.



BINGO!!!!! and we have a winner, best way to describe Southwest Airlines in 2021!!!!


I second BMWdrvr75! This is the perfect way to describe WN right now. They dusted off their post 9/11 and post ‘08 playbook and put it to work but didn’t appreciate the major differences. Before the MAX was grounded WN already had a fleet shortage so when the MAX came back they were still at a disadvantage. Then you throw in all the buyouts, retraining, and new hiring/training that needs to be done and you have a completely different ballgame. Stubborn WN said “since everyone LUVs us so much we’re going into COS, we’re going into MIA, we’re going into BZN, etc… That worked fine until they started waking up the rest of their network, then BOOM, right back to 2019 when they didn’t have enough planes to operate their planned schedule after the classics were retired.

Look at WNs delays and cancellations at DEN vs. UA or the same thing at ORD/MDW. It’s staggering, even when you add the express carriers in. Yet their PR spin machine keeps telling travelers “WEATHER, WEATHER, WEATHER” like we’re not smart enough to look at a departure board (like I did at DEN this week) and see that the “Cancelled” and “Delayed” are noticeably connected to WN flights and not so much the competition. AA is being up front with their customers about their over scheduling and even though they’re not my favorite, I appreciate that. I don’t know how this situation improves because Gary said they won’t have enough aircraft to operate their schedule into 2023.

Which brings up the next point. WN has been good for SOME business travel up to April of 2020. You have to go between Dallas and Houston frequently, that’s your airline. You need to fly between the LA basin and the Bay Area frequently, that’s your airline. Chicago and NYC, Dallas, or Houston, eeeh, maybe. NYC and the LA basin, the Bay Area or Seattle, no way. If they don’t have enough aircraft to operate they’re current schedule, how will they expand into these business heavy markets without discontinuing flying that is core to their current business model?

Then there’s the current business model. Look, I get all of you that say “why should Southwest do anything different when they’ve been successful all these years?” Well, here’s the thing, times change, and the businesses that survive are the ones that adapt. Southwest ain’t doing so good at adapting right now. When I was in business school 2001-04 one of my Management profs said “everybody loves Southwest because they run on time and they don’t lose your luggage.” I would also add no change fees and go forward a few years and I’d add “bags fly free.”Well, that’s certainly not the case right now. First, the change fee playing field has been leveled. Second, they are an operational nightmare. They’ve bit off more than they can chew and consequently, the things that made them pleasant to fly have gone out the window. The fact that they didn’t offer power ports or an extra legroom economy section to move up to didn’t matter as much when they were “old reliable.”

Which brings up the final point. WN’s hard and soft products were built around serving that people just want reliable transportation at a good VALUE. Not necessarily cheap but a good value. They excelled at pleasing those customers which included a fair amount of short and medium haul domestic business customers. Power ports and extra legroom don’t matter as much on sub 2 hour flights. I generally want the option to ride in a little more comfort but I would use WN to fly AMA-LAS because for an hour and 50 mins, a gussied up evolve 73G was ok. However, on longer flights, it starts to become an issue. The longest WN flights I’ve taken are DAL-BOS and RDU-LAS. On those longer flights, the lack of amenities shows. No power to recharge my devices (meaning I have to remember to carry a power bank and keep it charged) no option to upgrade to more legroom (you can sometimes alleviate this buy buying early bird or BE but that doesn’t mean you’ll be one of the first 11 and if it’s a through flight, that goes out the window as passengers continuing will have moved up to those few seats available on a WN aircraft). WN also hasn’t been themselves when it comes to onboard service in the pandemic era. UA still offered me their full array of sealed nonalcoholic beverages of choice, and in November brought the coffee back while WN was still “just water.” Then they added Coke, Diet Coke, and 7up and came up with a goofy ordering system that resulted in FAs and passengers slipping off their masks to communicate much more so that any of the 25 UA flights I took in that same period. A few weeks ago, several other lawyers here in Amarillo and I were at a happy hour and the subject of Southwest came up. ALL of us agreed that they’re just not a pleasant travel experience for flights over about 1 1/2 - 2 hours and they don’t provide a good product that allows productivity on a longer trip or a trip with a connection.

Let me be clear, I am not saying that WN is going out of business any time soon. I’m not saying that they won’t continue to carry more domestic passengers than any of the 3 legacies. I’m just saying that there have been MANY companies at the top of their game that have failed to adapt and been eclipsed by someone else. Southwest has the attitude that “this is what we do, take it or leave it.” Again, that doesn’t mean that they’re going to go broke, but it does mean, that there will be travelers on some routes that they want to expand into that will say “no thanks.” If I’m on a longer business trip, the lounge to work in, the power ports to keep my devices up and running, and the extra room do make a difference. It compounds when the airline isn’t reliable and I’m stuck at the airport or on the tarmac longer.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 15270
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: WN Wants To Attract Business Travelers

Sat Jul 03, 2021 4:43 pm

AMALH747430 wrote:
Look at WNs delays and cancellations at DEN vs. UA or the same thing at ORD/MDW. It’s staggering, even when you add the express carriers in. Yet their PR spin machine keeps telling travelers “WEATHER, WEATHER, WEATHER” like we’re not smart enough to look at a departure board (like I did at DEN this week) and see that the “Cancelled” and “Delayed” are noticeably connected to WN flights and not so much the competition. AA is being up front with their customers about their over scheduling and even though they’re not my favorite, I appreciate that. I don’t know how this situation improves because Gary said they won’t have enough aircraft to operate their schedule into 2023.

Which brings up the next point. WN has been good for SOME business travel up to April of 2020. You have to go between Dallas and Houston frequently, that’s your airline. You need to fly between the LA basin and the Bay Area frequently, that’s your airline. Chicago and NYC, Dallas, or Houston, eeeh, maybe. NYC and the LA basin, the Bay Area or Seattle, no way. If they don’t have enough aircraft to operate they’re current schedule, how will they expand into these business heavy markets without discontinuing flying that is core to their current business model?

Then there’s the current business model. Look, I get all of you that say “why should Southwest do anything different when they’ve been successful all these years?” Well, here’s the thing, times change, and the businesses that survive are the ones that adapt. Southwest ain’t doing so good at adapting right now. When I was in business school 2001-04 one of my Management profs said “everybody loves Southwest because they run on time and they don’t lose your luggage.” I would also add no change fees and go forward a few years and I’d add “bags fly free.”Well, that’s certainly not the case right now. First, the change fee playing field has been leveled. Second, they are an operational nightmare. They’ve bit off more than they can chew and consequently, the things that made them pleasant to fly have gone out the window. The fact that they didn’t offer power ports or an extra legroom economy section to move up to didn’t matter as much when they were “old reliable.”

Which brings up the final point. WN’s hard and soft products were built around serving that people just want reliable transportation at a good VALUE. Not necessarily cheap but a good value. They excelled at pleasing those customers which included a fair amount of short and medium haul domestic business customers. Power ports and extra legroom don’t matter as much on sub 2 hour flights. I generally want the option to ride in a little more comfort but I would use WN to fly AMA-LAS because for an hour and 50 mins, a gussied up evolve 73G was ok. However, on longer flights, it starts to become an issue. The longest WN flights I’ve taken are DAL-BOS and RDU-LAS. On those longer flights, the lack of amenities shows. No power to recharge my devices (meaning I have to remember to carry a power bank and keep it charged) no option to upgrade to more legroom (you can sometimes alleviate this buy buying early bird or BE but that doesn’t mean you’ll be one of the first 11 and if it’s a through flight, that goes out the window as passengers continuing will have moved up to those few seats available on a WN aircraft.


I’m usually A List or Preferred and would say I get an exit row or bulkhead on about 95 percent of my BS flights and about two thirds of my WGA flights. Those ratios are comparable to my experience with mid level AA and DL status.

On the weather point, it’s absolutely PR spin in Denver but not in Chicago. First, the south side tends to have worse weather (and for whatever reason this trend seems to have accelerated lately). Second, runway contamination is an operational challenge on MDW’s shorter runways. This is an especially acute issue with 738s (and 3M8s, becuase it’s really a landing issue and they don’t brake that much better) and increased passenger weights will exacerbate it to some degree.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 4458
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: WN Wants To Attract Business Travelers

Sat Jul 03, 2021 4:50 pm

This article made me think of this group.

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/ ... t-cvg.html

“CVG is a fantastic airport and services business travelers in this region very well,” said Michelle Goret, Cintas’ vice president of corporate affairs. “There are many carriers at CVG that service areas of the country we generally travel to, and we will generally book the most direct route to our destination, regardless of carrier.”


My opinion. There is a plenty big business travel piece of the pie that goes by that logic. WN shouldn’t be worried about picking up business on the LAX/CHI-NYC route types with heavy competition. If they get it great, but they should focus on the mid tier cities where there is no legacy hub and they can be the only nonstop. PIT/BNA/STL/IND/Ohio airport types. For most business travel, nonstop is going to matter the most. So plug in routes where there isn’t a ton of competition. I can’t imagine many people taking STL-ORD-CLE even if a legacy offers better amenities when Southwest offers STL-CLE.
 
AMALH747430
Posts: 263
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2014 9:29 pm

Re: WN Wants To Attract Business Travelers

Sat Jul 03, 2021 4:55 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
AMALH747430 wrote:
Look at WNs delays and cancellations at DEN vs. UA or the same thing at ORD/MDW. It’s staggering, even when you add the express carriers in. Yet their PR spin machine keeps telling travelers “WEATHER, WEATHER, WEATHER” like we’re not smart enough to look at a departure board (like I did at DEN this week) and see that the “Cancelled” and “Delayed” are noticeably connected to WN flights and not so much the competition. AA is being up front with their customers about their over scheduling and even though they’re not my favorite, I appreciate that. I don’t know how this situation improves because Gary said they won’t have enough aircraft to operate their schedule into 2023.

Which brings up the next point. WN has been good for SOME business travel up to April of 2020. You have to go between Dallas and Houston frequently, that’s your airline. You need to fly between the LA basin and the Bay Area frequently, that’s your airline. Chicago and NYC, Dallas, or Houston, eeeh, maybe. NYC and the LA basin, the Bay Area or Seattle, no way. If they don’t have enough aircraft to operate they’re current schedule, how will they expand into these business heavy markets without discontinuing flying that is core to their current business model?

Then there’s the current business model. Look, I get all of you that say “why should Southwest do anything different when they’ve been successful all these years?” Well, here’s the thing, times change, and the businesses that survive are the ones that adapt. Southwest ain’t doing so good at adapting right now. When I was in business school 2001-04 one of my Management profs said “everybody loves Southwest because they run on time and they don’t lose your luggage.” I would also add no change fees and go forward a few years and I’d add “bags fly free.”Well, that’s certainly not the case right now. First, the change fee playing field has been leveled. Second, they are an operational nightmare. They’ve bit off more than they can chew and consequently, the things that made them pleasant to fly have gone out the window. The fact that they didn’t offer power ports or an extra legroom economy section to move up to didn’t matter as much when they were “old reliable.”

Which brings up the final point. WN’s hard and soft products were built around serving that people just want reliable transportation at a good VALUE. Not necessarily cheap but a good value. They excelled at pleasing those customers which included a fair amount of short and medium haul domestic business customers. Power ports and extra legroom don’t matter as much on sub 2 hour flights. I generally want the option to ride in a little more comfort but I would use WN to fly AMA-LAS because for an hour and 50 mins, a gussied up evolve 73G was ok. However, on longer flights, it starts to become an issue. The longest WN flights I’ve taken are DAL-BOS and RDU-LAS. On those longer flights, the lack of amenities shows. No power to recharge my devices (meaning I have to remember to carry a power bank and keep it charged) no option to upgrade to more legroom (you can sometimes alleviate this buy buying early bird or BE but that doesn’t mean you’ll be one of the first 11 and if it’s a through flight, that goes out the window as passengers continuing will have moved up to those few seats available on a WN aircraft.


I’m usually A List or Preferred and would say I get an exit row or bulkhead on about 95 percent of my BS flights and about two thirds of my WGA flights. Those ratios are comparable to my experience with mid level AA and DL status.

On the weather point, it’s absolutely PR spin in Denver but not in Chicago. First, the south side tends to have worse weather (and for whatever reason this trend seems to have accelerated lately). Second, runway contamination is an operational challenge on MDW’s shorter runways. This is an especially acute issue with 738s (and 3M8s, becuase it’s really a landing issue and they don’t brake that much better) and increased passenger weights will exacerbate it to some degree.


I’ve never not gotten an Economy Plus seat on a UA mainline/CR7/E75/Q400 flight, it’s been 100% (and it’s only been one or two times on a 145 or CRJ 200) even those times that I’m only a silver. If I buy early bird I MIGHT get a bulkhead or exit seat on WN. If I buy Economy Plus on UA, I get Economy Plus.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 15270
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: WN Wants To Attract Business Travelers

Sat Jul 03, 2021 4:59 pm

AMALH747430 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
AMALH747430 wrote:
Look at WNs delays and cancellations at DEN vs. UA or the same thing at ORD/MDW. It’s staggering, even when you add the express carriers in. Yet their PR spin machine keeps telling travelers “WEATHER, WEATHER, WEATHER” like we’re not smart enough to look at a departure board (like I did at DEN this week) and see that the “Cancelled” and “Delayed” are noticeably connected to WN flights and not so much the competition. AA is being up front with their customers about their over scheduling and even though they’re not my favorite, I appreciate that. I don’t know how this situation improves because Gary said they won’t have enough aircraft to operate their schedule into 2023.

Which brings up the next point. WN has been good for SOME business travel up to April of 2020. You have to go between Dallas and Houston frequently, that’s your airline. You need to fly between the LA basin and the Bay Area frequently, that’s your airline. Chicago and NYC, Dallas, or Houston, eeeh, maybe. NYC and the LA basin, the Bay Area or Seattle, no way. If they don’t have enough aircraft to operate they’re current schedule, how will they expand into these business heavy markets without discontinuing flying that is core to their current business model?

Then there’s the current business model. Look, I get all of you that say “why should Southwest do anything different when they’ve been successful all these years?” Well, here’s the thing, times change, and the businesses that survive are the ones that adapt. Southwest ain’t doing so good at adapting right now. When I was in business school 2001-04 one of my Management profs said “everybody loves Southwest because they run on time and they don’t lose your luggage.” I would also add no change fees and go forward a few years and I’d add “bags fly free.”Well, that’s certainly not the case right now. First, the change fee playing field has been leveled. Second, they are an operational nightmare. They’ve bit off more than they can chew and consequently, the things that made them pleasant to fly have gone out the window. The fact that they didn’t offer power ports or an extra legroom economy section to move up to didn’t matter as much when they were “old reliable.”

Which brings up the final point. WN’s hard and soft products were built around serving that people just want reliable transportation at a good VALUE. Not necessarily cheap but a good value. They excelled at pleasing those customers which included a fair amount of short and medium haul domestic business customers. Power ports and extra legroom don’t matter as much on sub 2 hour flights. I generally want the option to ride in a little more comfort but I would use WN to fly AMA-LAS because for an hour and 50 mins, a gussied up evolve 73G was ok. However, on longer flights, it starts to become an issue. The longest WN flights I’ve taken are DAL-BOS and RDU-LAS. On those longer flights, the lack of amenities shows. No power to recharge my devices (meaning I have to remember to carry a power bank and keep it charged) no option to upgrade to more legroom (you can sometimes alleviate this buy buying early bird or BE but that doesn’t mean you’ll be one of the first 11 and if it’s a through flight, that goes out the window as passengers continuing will have moved up to those few seats available on a WN aircraft.


I’m usually A List or Preferred and would say I get an exit row or bulkhead on about 95 percent of my BS flights and about two thirds of my WGA flights. Those ratios are comparable to my experience with mid level AA and DL status.

On the weather point, it’s absolutely PR spin in Denver but not in Chicago. First, the south side tends to have worse weather (and for whatever reason this trend seems to have accelerated lately). Second, runway contamination is an operational challenge on MDW’s shorter runways. This is an especially acute issue with 738s (and 3M8s, becuase it’s really a landing issue and they don’t brake that much better) and increased passenger weights will exacerbate it to some degree.


I’ve never not gotten an Economy Plus seat on a UA mainline/CR7/E75/Q400 flight, it’s been 100% (and it’s only been one or two times on a 145 or CRJ 200) even those times that I’m only a silver. If I buy early bird I MIGHT get a bulkhead or exit seat on WN. If I buy Economy Plus on UA, I get Economy Plus.


I’m not sure why you would compare early bird and Economy Plus given the vast price disparity (unless the point is to make WN look bad).
 
AMALH747430
Posts: 263
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2014 9:29 pm

Re: WN Wants To Attract Business Travelers

Sat Jul 03, 2021 5:07 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
AMALH747430 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:

I’m usually A List or Preferred and would say I get an exit row or bulkhead on about 95 percent of my BS flights and about two thirds of my WGA flights. Those ratios are comparable to my experience with mid level AA and DL status.

On the weather point, it’s absolutely PR spin in Denver but not in Chicago. First, the south side tends to have worse weather (and for whatever reason this trend seems to have accelerated lately). Second, runway contamination is an operational challenge on MDW’s shorter runways. This is an especially acute issue with 738s (and 3M8s, becuase it’s really a landing issue and they don’t brake that much better) and increased passenger weights will exacerbate it to some degree.


I’ve never not gotten an Economy Plus seat on a UA mainline/CR7/E75/Q400 flight, it’s been 100% (and it’s only been one or two times on a 145 or CRJ 200) even those times that I’m only a silver. If I buy early bird I MIGHT get a bulkhead or exit seat on WN. If I buy Economy Plus on UA, I get Economy Plus.


I’m not sure why you would compare early bird and Economy Plus given the vast price disparity (unless the point is to make WN look bad).


The point is if I want extra legroom on the airline I do business with I either get it because I have status or if I don’t I can buy up. WN doesn’t offer that product at all. They offer the opportunity to board early for those with status or the opportunity to buy early boarding (either by paying the full fare BE product or purchasing early bird) but no guarantee of a seat with extra room.

If you like that, then great. I’m just trying to point out that there are products that some of us value that WN doesn’t offer. In my post above I pointed out fairly clearly that for some travelers what WN does is great, but there are a large number of travelers that doesn’t work for.
Last edited by AMALH747430 on Sat Jul 03, 2021 5:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 15270
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: WN Wants To Attract Business Travelers

Sat Jul 03, 2021 5:11 pm

AMALH747430 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
AMALH747430 wrote:

I’ve never not gotten an Economy Plus seat on a UA mainline/CR7/E75/Q400 flight, it’s been 100% (and it’s only been one or two times on a 145 or CRJ 200) even those times that I’m only a silver. If I buy early bird I MIGHT get a bulkhead or exit seat on WN. If I buy Economy Plus on UA, I get Economy Plus.


I’m not sure why you would compare early bird and Economy Plus given the vast price disparity (unless the point is to make WN look bad).


The point is if I want extra legroom on the airline I do business with I either get it because I have status or if I don’t I can buy up. WN doesn’t offer that product at all. They offer the opportunity to board early for those with status or the opportunity to buy early boarding (either by paying full fare or purchasing early bird) but no guarantee of a seat with extra room.

If you like that, then great. I’m just trying to point out that there are products that some of us value that WN doesn’t offer. In my post above I pointed out fairly clearly that for some travelers what WN does is great, but there are a large number of travelers that doesn’t work for.


I don’t think anyone is disputing your last point. But the truth is that there are products that people value - nonstop flights, near infinite flexibility, staff without attitudes - that WN offers consistently and others sometimes if not often don’t.
 
AMALH747430
Posts: 263
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2014 9:29 pm

Re: WN Wants To Attract Business Travelers

Sat Jul 03, 2021 5:22 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
AMALH747430 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:

I’m not sure why you would compare early bird and Economy Plus given the vast price disparity (unless the point is to make WN look bad).


The point is if I want extra legroom on the airline I do business with I either get it because I have status or if I don’t I can buy up. WN doesn’t offer that product at all. They offer the opportunity to board early for those with status or the opportunity to buy early boarding (either by paying full fare or purchasing early bird) but no guarantee of a seat with extra room.

If you like that, then great. I’m just trying to point out that there are products that some of us value that WN doesn’t offer. In my post above I pointed out fairly clearly that for some travelers what WN does is great, but there are a large number of travelers that doesn’t work for.


I don’t think anyone is disputing your last point. But the truth is that there are products that people value - nonstop flights, near infinite flexibility, staff without attitudes - that WN offers consistently and others sometimes if not often don’t.


Ok, if you want to go down that road, here we go. Flexibility is now a moot point, all of the majors in the United States have eliminated change fees. That’s a completely level playing field now. As far as the agents with a bad attitude goes, I would agree with you on that up until about 2011. In the last 10 years I’ve dealt with just as many airport staff, flight attendants, and phone agents at Southwest that have bad attitudes as at UA and AA. I’ve found the airport staff at WNs RDU station to be particularly grumpy on a consistent basis which was another reason I don’t fly Southwest as much anymore. I fly to SAT a lot, it’s my most frequent trip. As the more senior agents that started back in Southwest’s early days have retired, if found that their replacements are just as likely to be rude as a UA or AA agent. I haven’t flown Delta much, but when I have their people have been consistently the most pleasant.

This may not be your experience, but just because that hasn’t been your experience doesn’t mean it hasn’t been mine. Again I’m not arguing with you that WN doesn’t work for you, I’m just saying that for some of us it doesn’t.

Talking about business travelers, several other posters and I have pointed out that Southwest works just great for a certain segment of those customers. There’s also a large swath of us that it doesn’t work for. You are clearly in the group that Southwest works for. Great! That doesn’t mean that it works for all of us.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 15270
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: WN Wants To Attract Business Travelers

Sat Jul 03, 2021 6:25 pm

AMALH747430 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
AMALH747430 wrote:

The point is if I want extra legroom on the airline I do business with I either get it because I have status or if I don’t I can buy up. WN doesn’t offer that product at all. They offer the opportunity to board early for those with status or the opportunity to buy early boarding (either by paying full fare or purchasing early bird) but no guarantee of a seat with extra room.

If you like that, then great. I’m just trying to point out that there are products that some of us value that WN doesn’t offer. In my post above I pointed out fairly clearly that for some travelers what WN does is great, but there are a large number of travelers that doesn’t work for.


I don’t think anyone is disputing your last point. But the truth is that there are products that people value - nonstop flights, near infinite flexibility, staff without attitudes - that WN offers consistently and others sometimes if not often don’t.


Ok, if you want to go down that road, here we go. Flexibility is now a moot point, all of the majors in the United States have eliminated change fees. That’s a completely level playing field now. As far as the agents with a bad attitude goes, I would agree with you on that up until about 2011. In the last 10 years I’ve dealt with just as many airport staff, flight attendants, and phone agents at Southwest that have bad attitudes as at UA and AA. I’ve found the airport staff at WNs RDU station to be particularly grumpy on a consistent basis which was another reason I don’t fly Southwest as much anymore. I fly to SAT a lot, it’s my most frequent trip. As the more senior agents that started back in Southwest’s early days have retired, if found that their replacements are just as likely to be rude as a UA or AA agent. I haven’t flown Delta much, but when I have their people have been consistently the most pleasant.

This may not be your experience, but just because that hasn’t been your experience doesn’t mean it hasn’t been mine. Again I’m not arguing with you that WN doesn’t work for you, I’m just saying that for some of us it doesn’t.

Talking about business travelers, several other posters and I have pointed out that Southwest works just great for a certain segment of those customers. There’s also a large swath of us that it doesn’t work for. You are clearly in the group that Southwest works for. Great! That doesn’t mean that it works for all of us.


When I talk about flexibility, I’m not speaking of change fees. For various reasons most of us haven’t paid them on legacies. I’m speaking of number of destinations. Look at the number of cities served from a place like MKE or SMF on WN versus the legacies. That often leads to many more flight options (and, when a hub has weather, many more alternatives).
 
bob75013
Posts: 1092
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:05 pm

Re: WN Wants To Attract Business Travelers

Sat Jul 03, 2021 6:30 pm

AMALH747430 wrote:
[Point is if I want extra legroom on the airline I do business with I either get it because I have status or if I don’t I can buy up. WN doesn’t offer that product at all.
.


Yes,WN does offer that product.

The holder of the cheapest tickets the plane can upgrade to A1 to A15 at the gate for around$30.

Let’s see there are 15 in A1 thru A15 and there are 18 or so exit row and bulkhead seats.
 
bob75013
Posts: 1092
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:05 pm

Re: WN Wants To Attract Business Travelers

Sat Jul 03, 2021 6:37 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
AMALH747430 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:

I don’t think anyone is disputing your last point. But the truth is that there are products that people value - nonstop flights, near infinite flexibility, staff without attitudes - that WN offers consistently and others sometimes if not often don’t.


Ok, if you want to go down that road, here we go. Flexibility is now a moot point, all of the majors in the United States have eliminated change fees. That’s a completely level playing field now. As far as the agents with a bad attitude goes, I would agree with you on that up until about 2011. In the last 10 years I’ve dealt with just as many airport staff, flight attendants, and phone agents at Southwest that have bad attitudes as at UA and AA. I’ve found the airport staff at WNs RDU station to be particularly grumpy on a consistent basis which was another reason I don’t fly Southwest as much anymore. I fly to SAT a lot, it’s my most frequent trip. As the more senior agents that started back in Southwest’s early days have retired, if found that their replacements are just as likely to be rude as a UA or AA agent. I haven’t flown Delta much, but when I have their people have been consistently the most pleasant.

This may not be your experience, but just because that hasn’t been your experience doesn’t mean it hasn’t been mine. Again I’m not arguing with you that WN doesn’t work for you, I’m just saying that for some of us it doesn’t.

Talking about business travelers, several other posters and I have pointed out that Southwest works just great for a certain segment of those customers. There’s also a large swath of us that it doesn’t work for. You are clearly in the group that Southwest works for. Great! That doesn’t mean that it works for all of us.


When I talk about flexibility, I’m not speaking of change fees. For various reasons most of us haven’t paid them on legacies. I’m speaking of number of destinations. Look at the number of cities served from a place like MKE or SMF on WN versus the legacies. That often leads to many more flight options (and, when a hub has weather, many more alternatives).


Correct. If I am in Denver on AA trying to get to New Orleans and there is weather at DFW, I am stuck.

On WN I can fly non stop or connect in Houston, Austin, Kansas City
And a few others and avoid Dallas entirely.
 
bob75013
Posts: 1092
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:05 pm

Re: WN Wants To Attract Business Travelers

Sat Jul 03, 2021 6:46 pm

Question for all those that think WN doesn’t fly many business travelers. WN offers a ton of 5:30 a.m. to 6:30 a.m. flights from a whole lot of places.

who do you think is sitting in those seats?
 
bob75013
Posts: 1092
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:05 pm

Re: WN Wants To Attract Business Travelers

Sat Jul 03, 2021 6:47 pm

Duplicate delete
 
AMALH747430
Posts: 263
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2014 9:29 pm

Re: WN Wants To Attract Business Travelers

Sat Jul 03, 2021 6:52 pm

bob75013 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
AMALH747430 wrote:

Ok, if you want to go down that road, here we go. Flexibility is now a moot point, all of the majors in the United States have eliminated change fees. That’s a completely level playing field now. As far as the agents with a bad attitude goes, I would agree with you on that up until about 2011. In the last 10 years I’ve dealt with just as many airport staff, flight attendants, and phone agents at Southwest that have bad attitudes as at UA and AA. I’ve found the airport staff at WNs RDU station to be particularly grumpy on a consistent basis which was another reason I don’t fly Southwest as much anymore. I fly to SAT a lot, it’s my most frequent trip. As the more senior agents that started back in Southwest’s early days have retired, if found that their replacements are just as likely to be rude as a UA or AA agent. I haven’t flown Delta much, but when I have their people have been consistently the most pleasant.

This may not be your experience, but just because that hasn’t been your experience doesn’t mean it hasn’t been mine. Again I’m not arguing with you that WN doesn’t work for you, I’m just saying that for some of us it doesn’t.

Talking about business travelers, several other posters and I have pointed out that Southwest works just great for a certain segment of those customers. There’s also a large swath of us that it doesn’t work for. You are clearly in the group that Southwest works for. Great! That doesn’t mean that it works for all of us.


When I talk about flexibility, I’m not speaking of change fees. For various reasons most of us haven’t paid them on legacies. I’m speaking of number of destinations. Look at the number of cities served from a place like MKE or SMF on WN versus the legacies. That often leads to many more flight options (and, when a hub has weather, many more alternatives).


Correct. If I am in Denver on AA trying to get to New Orleans and there is weather at DFW, I am stuck.

On WN I can fly non stop or connect in Houston, Austin, Kansas City
And a few others and avoid Dallas entirely.


That’s an apples to orange comparison. There is in fact a legacy that has a large hub in Denver that offers many more nonstop destinations than Southwest. If you want to make a comparison in Denver, that’s the comparison. Now, for travelers in places like Baltimore, Las Vegas, Nashville, St. Louis, Kansas City, Milwaukee as another poster mentioned, then you’re right, Southwest has more nonstops and is a viable competitor for some business traffic there. Heck, southwest is a viable competitor for business traffic and places that it offers very few nonstops because some people like the product. That being said, it seems like Southwest new expansion is focused on flights from their megacities. There’s still much more point-to-point, but it’s becoming more focused on certain markets. There are very few nonstops within the state of Texas nowadays that don’t go through DAL or HOU.

As for the business select option, that’s apples to oranges too. On a 737-700, which currently comprises the majority of the southwest fleet, there are six bulkhead seats, and four extra legroom seats in the exit row for a total of 10 (remember, one side of the row has 3 seats with extra legroom, the other is configured with a missing seat next to the door giving only one seat extra room). If you pay for business select you have a chance at one of those seats. However, if the flight you’re getting on is coming from another city as a through flight, those seats may already be full with through passengers who have moved. You do have a much better chance on the 800, however, you can still have the problem with through passengers taking those seats. They are not specifically reserved for business select customers.
 
bob75013
Posts: 1092
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:05 pm

Re: WN Wants To Attract Business Travelers

Sat Jul 03, 2021 7:25 pm

Gimme a break.The example was AA in Denver --

Don;t want to talk about Denver?

OK-- lets talk about Kansas City or Tulsa or OK City or New Orleans or Albuquerque.or St Louis. or Louisville.or a whole lot of others

Balls in your court.
 
AMALH747430
Posts: 263
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2014 9:29 pm

Re: WN Wants To Attract Business Travelers

Sat Jul 03, 2021 7:40 pm

bob75013 wrote:
Gimme a break.The example was AA in Denver --

Don;t want to talk about Denver?

OK-- lets talk about Kansas City or Tulsa or OK City or New Orleans or Albuquerque.or St Louis. or Louisville.or a whole lot of others

Balls in your court.


If you’d read my post you’d see that I already did. WN absolutely has an advantage in markets where it has a substantial number of nonstops and legacies only have flights to their hubs. If it’s a market where WN has a mega station and another airline has a hub, then it’s more about which airline offers the product or schedule the traveler desires.

Quote from my post:

“ Now, for travelers in places like Baltimore, Las Vegas, Nashville, St. Louis, Kansas City, Milwaukee as another poster mentioned, then you’re right, Southwest has more nonstops and is a viable competitor for some business traffic there. Heck, southwest is a viable competitor for business traffic and places that it offers very few nonstops because some people like the product.”
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 15270
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: WN Wants To Attract Business Travelers

Sat Jul 03, 2021 7:47 pm

AMALH747430 wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
Gimme a break.The example was AA in Denver --

Don;t want to talk about Denver?

OK-- lets talk about Kansas City or Tulsa or OK City or New Orleans or Albuquerque.or St Louis. or Louisville.or a whole lot of others

Balls in your court.


If you’d read my post you’d see that I already did. WN absolutely has an advantage in markets where it has a substantial number of nonstops and legacies only have flights to their hubs. If it’s a market where WN has a mega station and another airline has a hub, then it’s more about which airline offers the product or schedule the traveler desires.

Quote from my post:

“ Now, for travelers in places like Baltimore, Las Vegas, Nashville, St. Louis, Kansas City, Milwaukee as another poster mentioned, then you’re right, Southwest has more nonstops and is a viable competitor for some business traffic there. Heck, southwest is a viable competitor for business traffic and places that it offers very few nonstops because some people like the product.”


The point is that this advantage exists in much more than just hubs. It also exists in places like Louisville or Tucson or Cleveland.
 
bob75013
Posts: 1092
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:05 pm

Re: WN Wants To Attract Business Travelers

Sat Jul 03, 2021 7:53 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
AMALH747430 wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
Gimme a break.The example was AA in Denver --

Don;t want to talk about Denver?

OK-- lets talk about Kansas City or Tulsa or OK City or New Orleans or Albuquerque.or St Louis. or Louisville.or a whole lot of others

Balls in your court.


If you’d read my post you’d see that I already did. WN absolutely has an advantage in markets where it has a substantial number of nonstops and legacies only have flights to their hubs. If it’s a market where WN has a mega station and another airline has a hub, then it’s more about which airline offers the product or schedule the traveler desires.

Quote from my post:

“ Now, for travelers in places like Baltimore, Las Vegas, Nashville, St. Louis, Kansas City, Milwaukee as another poster mentioned, then you’re right, Southwest has more nonstops and is a viable competitor for some business traffic there. Heck, southwest is a viable competitor for business traffic and places that it offers very few nonstops because some people like the product.”


The point is that this advantage exists in much more than just hubs. It also exists in places like Louisville or Tucson or Cleveland.


It exists in about 90% of the airports WN flies to that are not legacy hubs.
 
AMALH747430
Posts: 263
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2014 9:29 pm

Re: WN Wants To Attract Business Travelers

Sat Jul 03, 2021 8:02 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
AMALH747430 wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
Gimme a break.The example was AA in Denver --

Don;t want to talk about Denver?

OK-- lets talk about Kansas City or Tulsa or OK City or New Orleans or Albuquerque.or St Louis. or Louisville.or a whole lot of others

Balls in your court.


If you’d read my post you’d see that I already did. WN absolutely has an advantage in markets where it has a substantial number of nonstops and legacies only have flights to their hubs. If it’s a market where WN has a mega station and another airline has a hub, then it’s more about which airline offers the product or schedule the traveler desires.

Quote from my post:

“ Now, for travelers in places like Baltimore, Las Vegas, Nashville, St. Louis, Kansas City, Milwaukee as another poster mentioned, then you’re right, Southwest has more nonstops and is a viable competitor for some business traffic there. Heck, southwest is a viable competitor for business traffic and places that it offers very few nonstops because some people like the product.”


The point is that this advantage exists in much more than just hubs. It also exists in places like Louisville or Tucson or Cleveland.


This is getting ridiculous. I used the terms “places like” and “where Southwest has more nonstops.” That catches places like you mentioned. If you have read my posts in other threads you’ll see where I’ve argued that Southwest would be very hard to compete against in a place like Austin for this exact reason. I think Southwest has a lot of business customers in Austin, Tucson, Reno, San Diego, San Antonio, Albuquerque, etc, etc, etc. I’ve been flying Southwest regularly for two decades. I grew up, and have lived in Texas my entire life, I am intimately familiar with how they work. I don’t fly them as much as I used to for various reasons.

I’ve conceded that ground long ago. What I and others are trying to say on here is there is a limit to how much business traffic they can capture with their current model. I’m not saying that it’s not enough to sustain them. I’m just saying that there is a sizable segment of business travelers that desire products that Southwest just doesn’t offer at this time, and would need to offer them to capture that segment. Southwest may not want that segment, Southwest probably doesn’t need that segment.
 
bob75013
Posts: 1092
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:05 pm

Re: WN Wants To Attract Business Travelers

Sat Jul 03, 2021 8:10 pm

AMALH747430 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
AMALH747430 wrote:

If you’d read my post you’d see that I already did. WN absolutely has an advantage in markets where it has a substantial number of nonstops and legacies only have flights to their hubs. If it’s a market where WN has a mega station and another airline has a hub, then it’s more about which airline offers the product or schedule the traveler desires.

Quote from my post:

“ Now, for travelers in places like Baltimore, Las Vegas, Nashville, St. Louis, Kansas City, Milwaukee as another poster mentioned, then you’re right, Southwest has more nonstops and is a viable competitor for some business traffic there. Heck, southwest is a viable competitor for business traffic and places that it offers very few nonstops because some people like the product.”


The point is that this advantage exists in much more than just hubs. It also exists in places like Louisville or Tucson or Cleveland.


This is getting ridiculous. I used the terms “places like” and “where Southwest has more nonstops.” That catches places like you mentioned. If you have read my posts in other threads you’ll see where I’ve argued that Southwest would be very hard to compete against in a place like Austin for this exact reason. I think Southwest has a lot of business customers in Austin, Tucson, Reno, San Diego, San Antonio, Albuquerque, etc, etc, etc. I’ve been flying Southwest regularly for two decades. I grew up, and have lived in Texas my entire life, I am intimately familiar with how they work. I don’t fly them as much as I used to for various reasons.

I’ve conceded that ground long ago. What I and others are trying to say on here is there is a limit to how much business traffic they can capture with their current model. I’m not saying that it’s not enough to sustain them. I’m just saying that there is a sizable segment of business travelers that desire products that Southwest just doesn’t offer at this time, and would need to offer them to capture that segment. Southwest may not want that segment, Southwest probably doesn’t need that segment.


What's ridiculous is your implied assumption that business travel at places other than NY, ATL, , CLT,, Chiicago, DET, MSP,, SLC and California
is insignificant. It is not.

Besides WN owns California..
 
wjcandee
Posts: 10689
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: WN Wants To Attract Business Travelers

Sat Jul 03, 2021 8:12 pm

Business travelers aren't a monolithic group, and the fallacy of this thread is the very-high-level analysis of them as if they are. Different people respond to different combinations of factors. The point is to choose those factors and provide them consistently. When AA dominated Dallas business travel, you still had zillions of biz types lining up at LUV and HOU for the every-half-hour WN flights. When you're ready to go, just drive to the airport and go on the next flight. When I wanted to go to MSY for the weekend but wasn't sure when I could leave the office, I would wait until I was free to go, then drive to LUV and get on the next flight. I could do that because unlike AA, WN wasn't trying to extract some insanely-high fare just because I couldn't plan too well. Lots of us can't plan that well because work is unpredictable, and in my case on those kinds of routes, WN was the perfect choice.

"Business travelers" choose a carrier for a multitude of reasons, as varying as America itself. WN has chosen a path and does that path very well. It doesn't have to be all things to all people.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 15270
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: WN Wants To Attract Business Travelers

Sat Jul 03, 2021 8:13 pm

AMALH747430 wrote:
I’ve conceded that ground long ago. What I and others are trying to say on here is there is a limit to how much business traffic they can capture with their current model. I’m not saying that it’s not enough to sustain them. I’m just saying that there is a sizable segment of business travelers that desire products that Southwest just doesn’t offer at this time, and would need to offer them to capture that segment. Southwest may not want that segment, Southwest probably doesn’t need that segment.


Of course there's a limit. That limit is network. And that's fundamentally no different from how AA is never going to be very competitive in BOI or UA is never going to very competitive in BHM. And actually, it's more granular than by city. Somebody who lives in Nashville and has a lot of travel to small cities or a lot of travel to the Pacific northwest or a lot of longhaul probably isn't very likely to prefer WN.
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