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kaitak
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Irish 7/21: I remember that Summer in Dublin

Wed Jun 30, 2021 2:05 pm

Good afternoon folks and welcome to 7/21, as we move into the second half of the year.

Maybe it's the good weather, but there does seem to be more to be optimistic about, despite the disappointment over the indoor dining delay. Tomorrow, the EU's Digital Green Certificate (DGC) will become operational for the first time and hopefully, we will see a significant increase in travel, though a significant increase in outbound travel will have to wait until the 19th.

Some highlights (and lowlights) of the last month:

- EI's new CEO Lynne Embleton spoke to the Oireachtas Transport Committee and set out the airline's situation in stark terms; more redundancies are likely. The airline is burning through a lot of cash
- FR took delivery of its first 737 Maxes, EI-HEN/Z. Two more arrive on July 1 and 2, with a few more to follow (about 206 - though not this week!)
- Stobart Air ceases operations
- Government looking for replacement operators for KIR/CFN PSO routes; nothing announced yet, as of today, 30 June
- Aer Lingus receives 8th A321 Neo, EI-LRF. More short/medium haul Neo routes announced: CDG/FCO/ACE
- EI also annnounces restoration of some t/a routes, including EWR and SFO
- TUI planning restoration of sun routes from July 19
- LH announces ORK route

So, after around sixteen months of restrictions and reductions, this month will see a big increase in air travel; airlines will be reintroducing scrapped routes and we can expect demand to be strong. We're not out of the woods yet and with projections for the spread of the Delta variant, there will continue to be restrictions for some time to come. But we're moving in the right direction.

Here's a link to last month's thread: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1461349
 
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OA260
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Re: Irish 7/21: I remember that Summer in Dublin

Wed Jun 30, 2021 2:40 pm

Thanks for a new thread. It will be interesting to
see the experiences from other countries who start 100% using the Digital Cert and if increases cause long queues as reported. Also if the goal posts here change regarding 19/7.
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: Irish 7/21: I remember that Summer in Dublin

Wed Jun 30, 2021 2:58 pm

Has there been any noise recently about pax on flights from the UK into Ireland after 19 July facing restrictions - particularly some form of quarantine ?
 
Fliplot
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Re: Irish 7/21: I remember that Summer in Dublin

Wed Jun 30, 2021 3:20 pm

There were unacceptable queues at DUB immigration before covid so will be intetesting to see what happens! You would imagine with over 330k civil/public servants it should be possible to operate a queue free immigration service.
 
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ClassicLover
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Re: Irish 7/21: I remember that Summer in Dublin

Wed Jun 30, 2021 5:02 pm

davidjohnson6 wrote:
Has there been any noise recently about pax on flights from the UK into Ireland after 19 July facing restrictions - particularly some form of quarantine ?


I haven't heard anything. It's still PCR test within 72 hours of travel (as it is for everyone) and then for arrivals from the UK it's 14 days of home quarantine. Then it says -

"passengers are requested to arrange a COVID-19 Reverse Transcription Polymerase Chain Reaction (RT-PCR) test to be taken at least 5 days after arrival in Ireland"

And if this test is negative, you can end your home quarantine. You're also supposed to keep evidence of this test for 14 days.

It does say the quarantine at home for 14 days is mandatory and you'll be committing an offence if you avoid it, and also that the RT-PCR test is "requested".

Basically, it looks like they really have no way to enforce any of this and are suggesting, recommending and trying to stop you from travelling, but the reality is probably that you could fly over, get your PCR test 72 hours before flying back, and be good to go. I mean, they're hardly handing out ankle bracelets to monitor your movements when you get back. It is definitely worded to discourage people, but that's about it. I'd be curious on the enforcement, and I'd place money on there being none.
 
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OA260
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Re: Irish 7/21: I remember that Summer in Dublin

Wed Jun 30, 2021 5:34 pm

ClassicLover wrote:
davidjohnson6 wrote:
Has there been any noise recently about pax on flights from the UK into Ireland after 19 July facing restrictions - particularly some form of quarantine ?


I haven't heard anything. It's still PCR test within 72 hours of travel (as it is for everyone) and then for arrivals from the UK it's 14 days of home quarantine. Then it says -

"passengers are requested to arrange a COVID-19 Reverse Transcription Polymerase Chain Reaction (RT-PCR) test to be taken at least 5 days after arrival in Ireland"

And if this test is negative, you can end your home quarantine. You're also supposed to keep evidence of this test for 14 days.

It does say the quarantine at home for 14 days is mandatory and you'll be committing an offence if you avoid it, and also that the RT-PCR test is "requested".

Basically, it looks like they really have no way to enforce any of this and are suggesting, recommending and trying to stop you from travelling, but the reality is probably that you could fly over, get your PCR test 72 hours before flying back, and be good to go. I mean, they're hardly handing out ankle bracelets to monitor your movements when you get back. It is definitely worded to discourage people, but that's about it. I'd be curious on the enforcement, and I'd place money on there being none.


The Enterprise is getting busier by the week and mostly Irish youth heading up to Belfast for the bars and restaurants and those with cases heading out of BFS / BHD . So while these requests can be made most under 30’s have reached their limit and intend to enjoy Summer. Cant say I blame them.
 
Fliplot
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Re: Irish 7/21: I remember that Summer in Dublin

Wed Jun 30, 2021 6:01 pm

It's disappointing that those of us who are probably the fittest and healthiest, are also the ones complaining the loudest and breaking the rules. A sad reflection on social media, peer pressure and alcohol! Maybe we should secure Ireland's interests and close the border. Irish aviation would be better served!
 
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OA260
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Re: Irish 7/21: I remember that Summer in Dublin

Wed Jun 30, 2021 6:11 pm

Fliplot wrote:
It's disappointing that those of us who are probably the fittest and healthiest, are also the ones complaining the loudest and breaking the rules. A sad reflection on social media, peer pressure and alcohol! Maybe we should secure Ireland's interests and close the border. Irish aviation would be better served!


No time to open up get the country running again get those pilots , cabin crew , ground handlers, airport shop workers and lounge staff back to what they do best. This was supposed to be about protecting the most vulnerable in society and thats done now via jabs so life is not without risks so if need be the government can offer testing for €25 at Irish Airports that would certainly better serve the whole countries aviation and tourism industry.

Lets see if 19/7 goes ahead as I stated . If it does all well and good .
 
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OA260
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Re: Irish 7/21: I remember that Summer in Dublin

Wed Jun 30, 2021 7:42 pm

Ireland not ready to comply with EU travel cert introduction tomorrow

The European Commissioner for Justice has said that Ireland is the only European Union member state that will not be ready to comply with the EU Digital Covid Certificate for travel when it comes into effect tomorrow.

"I want to confirm that we have a really good evolution with all the member states, except Ireland, til now.

www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2021/0630/1 ... d-figures/


This is the first time I have seen it openly admitted that the delay is due to the hacking issue.
 
JAmie2k9
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Re: Irish 7/21: I remember that Summer in Dublin

Wed Jun 30, 2021 8:24 pm

New Route, not sure if/when there was a direct link to Guernsey before.

Guernsey based #AurignyAirlines will commence flights from
@GuernseyAirport to @DublinAirport twice weekly on Tuesdays & Thursday from 29th March 2022

Guernsey - Dublin 1345 / 1520
Dublin - Guernsey 1550 / 1735

https://twitter.com/Michaelkelly707/sta ... 0443187201
 
JAmie2k9
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Re: Irish 7/21: I remember that Summer in Dublin

Wed Jun 30, 2021 8:26 pm

OA260 wrote:
Ireland not ready to comply with EU travel cert introduction tomorrow

The European Commissioner for Justice has said that Ireland is the only European Union member state that will not be ready to comply with the EU Digital Covid Certificate for travel when it comes into effect tomorrow.

"I want to confirm that we have a really good evolution with all the member states, except Ireland, til now.

http://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2021 ... d-figures/


This is the first time I have seen it openly admitted that the delay is due to the hacking issue.


There was zero chance of 1st July even without the cyber attack which is a more plausible excuse to spin publicly.
 
al2637
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Re: Irish 7/21: I remember that Summer in Dublin

Thu Jul 01, 2021 9:14 am

I can understand they have problems issuing the certs to people vaccinated in Ireland, but there is no reason (other than political) that they can't accept them. They can be scanned and verified by any smartphone. They are digitally signed by the issuing country/authority so they can't be tampered with.
 
BrianDromey
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Re: Irish 7/21: I remember that Summer in Dublin

Thu Jul 01, 2021 9:41 am

al2637 wrote:
I can understand they have problems issuing the certs to people vaccinated in Ireland, but there is no reason (other than political) that they can't accept them. They can be scanned and verified by any smartphone. They are digitally signed by the issuing country/authority so they can't be tampered with.

Its true, I think we all know that restrictions at this stage are very politically motivated and modelled on fairly pessimistic assumptions. I think the current “worst case” scenario forecasts a peak much higher than anything seen in the previous waves - in a partially vaccinated population. They seem to have entirely disregarded the protection afforded by a single vaccine dose - which for Pfizer and Moderna is in the region of 75% for serious disease and hospitalisation, the Astra Zeneca one around 55%. The advice from the CMO is consistently on the conservative side of the projections, he has been consistently negative about point of care testing - which would be acceptable if this advice had shown materially better outcomes for the health of the nation or the health service, but I don’t think there is evidence for that.

I agree that the digital certificate will help quite a lot, but I find the explanation fantastical. Its only weeks ago the same spokespersons were say vaccinations were unaffected by the hacking. Now that same system cannot be called to report vaccination status for an individual? Come off it!

All of that said, having recently travelled from the UK to Greece, travel is nothing like it was before - even testing were free it’s a bit of a job to figure out what country will accept what test and when they need to be done. While the digital certificate will speed things up at the border, I don’t think it will harmonise testing and quarantine requirements - so there is quite a long way to go yet.
 
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OA260
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Re: Irish 7/21: I remember that Summer in Dublin

Thu Jul 01, 2021 10:04 am

Aer Lingus have extended Aer Club status’s for another 12 months .
 
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ClassicLover
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Re: Irish 7/21: I remember that Summer in Dublin

Thu Jul 01, 2021 10:49 am

OA260 wrote:
Aer Lingus have extended Aer Club status’s for another 12 months .


That's quite sensible. Makes total sense to do this since nobody has been permitted to properly go anywhere for so long.
 
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OA260
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Re: Irish 7/21: I remember that Summer in Dublin

Thu Jul 01, 2021 11:31 am

ClassicLover wrote:
OA260 wrote:
Aer Lingus have extended Aer Club status’s for another 12 months .


That's quite sensible. Makes total sense to do this since nobody has been permitted to properly go anywhere for so long.


Very true many of us have been wondering how we will renew with only 4-5 months to do it so this takes the pressure off until November/December 2022 for many. Just one less thing to have to decide. Hopefully we can enjoy a few trips this year without the urgency.
 
Eirules
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Re: Irish 7/21: I remember that Summer in Dublin

Thu Jul 01, 2021 12:26 pm

OA260 wrote:
Aer Lingus have extended Aer Club status’s for another 12 months .


I think most airlines outside of the US are going to have to do this. Some such as QR & TK already have. Airlines will need every tool in their armour to get back to the levels of flying that we saw in 2019. Ditching loyalty isn’t going to help that
 
JAmie2k9
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Re: Irish 7/21: I remember that Summer in Dublin

Thu Jul 01, 2021 9:39 pm

FR to add x2 weekly Dublin-Agadir service from 5th November. Last served by Aer Lingus & Charters a few years ago.
 
EIEIDW
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Re: Irish 7/21: I remember that Summer in Dublin

Thu Jul 01, 2021 10:11 pm

JAmie2k9 wrote:
FR to add x2 weekly Dublin-Agadir service from 5th November. Last served by Aer Lingus & Charters a few years ago.


AirArabia also flew the route a few years back
 
IrishLessor
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Re: Irish 7/21: I remember that Summer in Dublin

Thu Jul 01, 2021 11:34 pm

JAmie2k9 wrote:
New Route, not sure if/when there was a direct link to Guernsey before.

Guernsey based #AurignyAirlines will commence flights from
@GuernseyAirport to @DublinAirport twice weekly on Tuesdays & Thursday from 29th March 2022

Guernsey - Dublin 1345 / 1520
Dublin - Guernsey 1550 / 1735

https://twitter.com/Michaelkelly707/sta ... 0443187201


Nice little addition. Manx Airlines did this route with a weekly schedule service somewhere around 1989-1990.
 
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IrishTexan
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Re: Irish 7/21: I remember that Summer in Dublin

Fri Jul 02, 2021 5:39 am

AA208/209 ORD-DUB-ORD resumes daily service with todays arrival making 2 daily AA788 services to DUB along with the PHL service.
Also noticed that UA22/23 EWR-DUB-EWR changes to 78X in Sept.
 
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OA260
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Re: Irish 7/21: I remember that Summer in Dublin

Fri Jul 02, 2021 7:23 am

Varadkar says Aer Lingus should keep Cork staff on payroll 'if possible'

The Tánaiste has told the Dáil that the layoff of Aer Lingus staff at Cork Airport later this year is "an industrial relations matter" but the company should keep staff on the payroll if possible.

www.irishexaminer.com/news/munster/arid ... l?type=amp

Maybe Leo should offer them an incentive to do so .
 
BrianDromey
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Re: Irish 7/21: I remember that Summer in Dublin

Fri Jul 02, 2021 7:56 am

I notice that Vueling has changed their cabin bag policy and it is suspiciously similar to the new Aer Lingus one - 10KG cabin bag can be checked in for free and a small bag allowed under the seat in the cabin.
 
Fliplot
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Re: Irish 7/21: I remember that Summer in Dublin

Fri Jul 02, 2021 11:38 am

EI has the same incentive as every other company in Ireland! What more were you thinking of?
 
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OA260
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Re: Irish 7/21: I remember that Summer in Dublin

Fri Jul 02, 2021 11:42 am

Ryanair's passenger numbers jump higher in June

Ryanair said its passenger numbers in June jumped to 5.3 million from 0.4 million the same month last year when very strict Covid-19 travel restrictions were still in place.

The airline said it was seeing a 72% load factor - how many seats it fills on each flight - in June.

www.rte.ie/news/business/2021/0702/1232 ... r-numbers/

Some positive news from FR on its European operations ( Excluding Ireland ) .
 
Fliplot
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Re: Irish 7/21: I remember that Summer in Dublin

Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:04 pm

FR is operating far more flights, in some cases only flights, out of DUB, ORK, SNN and NOC than EI. Why is that the case even if you point out that FR number are up EXCEPT for Ireland?
 
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OA260
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Re: Irish 7/21: I remember that Summer in Dublin

Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:26 pm

Open letter from Ryanair to the transport minister


Image
 
Fliplot
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Re: Irish 7/21: I remember that Summer in Dublin

Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:38 pm

MOL must have been out of the country, on an essential trip of course, when the cyber attack happenned. HSE has not permitted any new or add in service links since then. At best 50% of iperating systems are returned to service - just!
 
BDKLEZ
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Re: Irish 7/21: I remember that Summer in Dublin

Fri Jul 02, 2021 3:15 pm

Are we sure this is real? The phone number contains the international country code for Spain. I was pretty certain that Swords/Spain aren’t very close, or am I missing something I’m not aware of?

OA260 wrote:
Open letter from Ryanair to the transport minister


Image
 
Fliplot
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Re: Irish 7/21: I remember that Summer in Dublin

Fri Jul 02, 2021 3:41 pm

A true Ryanair-ism! Swords, near Spain! Unless of course MOL is still on that essential trip!
 
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OA260
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Re: Irish 7/21: I remember that Summer in Dublin

Fri Jul 02, 2021 4:01 pm

BDKLEZ wrote:
Are we sure this is real? The phone number contains the international country code for Spain. I was pretty certain that Swords/Spain aren’t very close, or am I missing something I’m not aware of?

OA260 wrote:
Open letter from Ryanair to the transport minister


Image


Yes its even on their Twitter Press office page along with some other things.


https://twitter.com/ryanairpress/status ... 52513?s=21
 
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ClassicLover
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Re: Irish 7/21: I remember that Summer in Dublin

Fri Jul 02, 2021 6:18 pm

OA260 wrote:
Open letter from Ryanair to the transport minister


He's not wrong though! Loved the variant scariant too :)
 
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Phen
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Re: Irish 7/21: I remember that Summer in Dublin

Fri Jul 02, 2021 8:59 pm

OK, I can't resist the bait. I'll bite.

Fliplot wrote:
EI has the same incentive as every other company in Ireland! What more were you thinking of?

The last time I went to the supermarket or a pub (with outdoor seating) there wasn't a Garda blockade outside it fining people €2,000 in order to deter costumers from using the service. That is what airlines are having to deal with at Dublin Airport for one. So yes, whilst airlines can avail of the same covid assistance schemes as other businesses, they have one hell of a Government knee on their neck when it comes to disincentives. So yes, Varadkar and his colleagues should be looking for ways to support airlines to retain jobs over and above what unimpeded businesses can avail of.

Fliplot wrote:
FR is operating far more flights, in some cases only flights, out of DUB, ORK, SNN and NOC than EI. Why is that the case even if you point out that FR number are up EXCEPT for Ireland?


FR is a huge airline and the Irish market is a very small segment of it. FR can afford to fly empty planes in and out of Ireland because they are so big, and better traffic figures elsewhere in Europe lessen the effect of the poor market conditions in Ireland at present. Those FR flights you see are not full. They are also running flights just to keep their crew current, and to continue training for new crew. Smaller airlines like Aer Lingus are less able to afford to fly empty aircraft around (which means paying crew, paying for fuel and handling fees just to name some of the costs without generating any revenue to balance that out) which is why decisions are made to cancel flights instead. Unlike FR, EI is pretty much totally dependent on the Irish market which is all but flatlining right now.

Fliplot wrote:
MOL must have been out of the country, on an essential trip of course

I would be inclined to think that running one of the world's biggest airline groups, employing thousands and thousands of people, means that a trip abroad for that purpose is definitely essential.
 
Fliplot
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Re: Irish 7/21: I remember that Summer in Dublin

Fri Jul 02, 2021 10:49 pm

Phen
Sorry you didn't catch the humour about MOL! Your arguments for EI not flying are the ones you also use for FR flying.
In the end one carrier appears better managed than the other. For me it is sad that on major EU routes EI is either non existant or barely operating. Who do you think guests will remember supported their travel plans such as they are?
 
Fliplot
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Re: Irish 7/21: I remember that Summer in Dublin

Sun Jul 04, 2021 4:13 pm

Nice to see SU beck on Ssturday evenings. Hooefully the schedule will return to normal soon.
Also quite strange to see three flights to Moldova in the space of 4 hours tonight/tomorrow. Is there really that much demand?
 
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ClassicLover
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Re: Irish 7/21: I remember that Summer in Dublin

Sun Jul 04, 2021 5:11 pm

Fliplot wrote:
Nice to see SU beck on Ssturday evenings. Hooefully the schedule will return to normal soon.
Also quite strange to see three flights to Moldova in the space of 4 hours tonight/tomorrow. Is there really that much demand?


That's interesting! Curious to know why that is. I knew a Moldovan lady and I said I should visit there and she said, "No, it's not worth it." She really advised me not to go, as I thought she was kidding. Apparently their claim to fame is champagne and chocolate and that's about it, if I recall correctly. First time I have ever met anyone who seriously said "don't go" when referring to their country of origin, so I remember it well.

Just an aside Fliplot, you do know you can quote other people's posts by clicking the inverted commas at the top right corner of the post you want to quote, right? It's beside the post number. Just so you know :)
 
BestWestern
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Re: Irish 7/21: I remember that Summer in Dublin

Sun Jul 04, 2021 5:41 pm

I’ve been to Moldova a half dozen times for Work. Nice, but poor capital Chisinau, with really friendly people.

Their claim to fame is wonderful red wine. The vineyards are close to the city, and the price/quality is off the charts.

The country is like Ireland in the eighties - terribly poor and oppressive with the biggest exports being their people.

Aviation has improved since I was there. The airport is great now, and air Moldova has a modern fleet. Gone are the days of 134’s to moscow (that was an experience) and Embraer 120s within Europe. My last trip was supposed to be with Austrian, who cancelled due to weather. We were put on an air Moldova 120 who braved the weather and the waaay too icy runway to land.
 
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ClassicLover
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Re: Irish 7/21: I remember that Summer in Dublin

Sun Jul 04, 2021 6:51 pm

BestWestern wrote:
I’ve been to Moldova a half dozen times for Work. Nice, but poor capital Chisinau, with really friendly people.

Their claim to fame is wonderful red wine. The vineyards are close to the city, and the price/quality is off the charts.

The country is like Ireland in the eighties - terribly poor and oppressive with the biggest exports being their people.

Aviation has improved since I was there. The airport is great now, and air Moldova has a modern fleet. Gone are the days of 134’s to moscow (that was an experience) and Embraer 120s within Europe. My last trip was supposed to be with Austrian, who cancelled due to weather. We were put on an air Moldova 120 who braved the weather and the waaay too icy runway to land.


Ah-ha! You are correct, I think she did say red wine. I knew it was something alcoholic!

Sounds like an interesting place. It's somewhere I'd like to go, but her comments always put me off. Nice to see a different view!
 
Fliplot
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Re: Irish 7/21: I remember that Summer in Dublin

Sun Jul 04, 2021 8:38 pm

Still not sure there are enough Moldovans in Ireland for 3 flights on a Sunday/monday evening. Used Air Moldova in the 90's a lot. They were interesting but always managed to arrive at their dedtination.
Chisinau is a compact, neat and friendly city. Never believe all the stories though I do not know a Moldovan who like living there.. Those times the wine industry wss still mainly manual and any bottle of red wine had an inch of sedement. Taste was superb though. Its third claim to fame then wad the Russian battalion stationed outside the capital - to keep the peace!
 
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OA260
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Re: Irish 7/21: I remember that Summer in Dublin

Mon Jul 05, 2021 5:57 am

Aer Lingus Regional service set for relaunch by October
Exclusive: Preferred bidder Emerald Airlines expected to sign contracts soon in wake of Stobart Air collapse

https://m.independent.ie/business/aer-l ... 12869.html

Some good news on the EIR front.
 
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ClassicLover
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Re: Irish 7/21: I remember that Summer in Dublin

Mon Jul 05, 2021 6:34 am

OA260 wrote:
Aer Lingus Regional service set for relaunch by October
Exclusive: Preferred bidder Emerald Airlines expected to sign contracts soon in wake of Stobart Air collapse

https://m.independent.ie/business/aer-l ... 12869.html

Some good news on the EIR front.


Saw that - and turboprops are mentioned and training in Toulouse. Looks like they'll be operating ATRs then, I assume.
 
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OA260
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Re: Irish 7/21: I remember that Summer in Dublin

Mon Jul 05, 2021 7:55 am

Bia food onboard has started again on Aer Lingus flights to the Canaries and it is expected to roll out to the rest of the network on 19/7.
 
BrianDromey
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Re: Irish 7/21: I remember that Summer in Dublin

Mon Jul 05, 2021 8:15 am

Great to see Bia sales back, even if it is on a limited scale right now. I wonder if EI I might try pre-orders again. BA have scrapped their buy-on-board offering, replacing it with pre-orders. You now get a small packet of crisps and a bottle of water on all flights. They are not even loading a galley cart of coffee granules or teabags. I’m not sure they have got this 100% right, especially on the longer short haul flights.

ClassicLover wrote:
OA260 wrote:
Aer Lingus Regional service set for relaunch by October
Exclusive: Preferred bidder Emerald Airlines expected to sign contracts soon in wake of Stobart Air collapse

https://m.independent.ie/business/aer-l ... 12869.html

Some good news on the EIR front.


Saw that - and turboprops are mentioned and training in Toulouse. Looks like they'll be operating ATRs then, I assume.


I guess so. I seem to remember around the time of the RE collapse that someone mentioned they had already secured their first two aircraft - ex Virgin Australia I think and that there were some new builds to come from Toulouse too. I guess it is possible that they will strike a deal for some of the former RE frames. From the article it sounds like they have their pick.
 
bennett123
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Re: Irish 7/21: I remember that Summer in Dublin

Mon Jul 05, 2021 11:36 am

Interesting that Exeter Aerospace has all these approvals, but not it's own website.

https://dublinaerospace.com/exeter-aerospace-approvals

The only ATR seen at EXT is EI-GPO owned by Commuter Aircraft Leasing.

https://www.iaa.ie/commercial-aviation/ ... -changes-1

The company also owns EI-GPN and EI-GPP. According to planespotters, all three went from FlyBe to Stobart to Chorus Aviation. Presumably EI-GPN and EI-GPP are hangared, with just EI-GPO outside.
 
Fliplot
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Re: Irish 7/21: I remember that Summer in Dublin

Mon Jul 05, 2021 5:47 pm

Still not fully convinced the EI decision on Stobart was entirely commercial! Will be interesting to see what differences Emerald bring to the party.
 
BrianDromey
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Re: Irish 7/21: I remember that Summer in Dublin

Mon Jul 05, 2021 6:05 pm

Fliplot wrote:
Still not fully convinced the EI decision on Stobart was entirely commercial! Will be interesting to see what differences Emerald bring to the party.

The truth is that we will never know. On one had IAG and EI can’t have been too happy that Virgin were involved in the ownership of one of their regional feeders, on the other Stobart got themselves into a fine old mess with the Connect Airways investment, SEN, Carlisle and trying to use RE to fly routes from those airports which were commercially tricky.
It was all seemed to be going well until COVID hit, but collapsed like a Ponzi scheme after that. One fact is sure, the EIR contract was exclusively EI’s to gift and they went elsewhere. Why RE could not win ATR or E-Jet operations for other airlines must have been some sort of warning sign, did they even tender for the SAS or Finnair ATR work, for example? Were there concerns about the financial viability of the airline during tender processes? Why did Stobart never use their own name for the operations out of SEN and pay flyBe a franchise fee instead? Did they know the collapse was inevitable and not want their names on grounded aircraft in 10ft letters? We’ll never know, but it does seem like EI were caught on the hop when RE did fold - how they were expected to survive with no own-brand or wet-lease flying beyond 2022 was never answered.
 
Fliplot
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Re: Irish 7/21: I remember that Summer in Dublin

Mon Jul 05, 2021 6:21 pm

EI caught on the hop by the collapse of Stobart was simply bad managment. EI were responsible for seat managment, bookings, fares and marketing so how could they possibly not know. We all knew there were serious issues at Stobart didn't we?
But as you say we will never know.
 
kaitak
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Re: Irish 7/21: I remember that Summer in Dublin

Mon Jul 05, 2021 8:29 pm

I still think that EI had a part to play in STK's failure and in effect, stabbed them in the back. STK was operating reliably for EI for several years - great crews, great safety record ... and then, EI goes and hands its business over to a paper airline. And without that business, what prospect was there for STK? And then (as has been stated above), they were caught on the hop when it went bang. Something is just not that right with that picture.

Don't get me wrong, I do wish Emerald all the best, as indeed I wish EI all the best - and all airlines a full recovery from what they're going through right now. Maybe STK's future stability was in doubt when EI handed its business to Emerald, but what it did - together with the effect of Covid - was something that I would doubt any airline, particularly a small feeder carrier could survive.

I see that Donnelly has extended the SI banning non-essential travel until the 18th July. He should visit the airport some day before then; no one seems to be paying a blind bit of notice. The gardai seem to be waving people through and I'm seeing lots of pretty full FR flights (judging by the queues). We certainly do things differently over here! Frankly, I can't blame people. The handling of the whole situation seems to be marked by utter confusion at government level. The news about the likelihood of the Irish DCC not being ready by July 19 is another example of that. We're not a low tech country; every one of the other 27 EU countries has managed to do this, why not us? What the hell is going on here? Is it ineptitude, technical incompetence or just deliberate foot dragging? It really reflects incredibly badly on us.
 
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Re: Irish 7/21: I remember that Summer in Dublin

Mon Jul 05, 2021 8:43 pm

Fliplot wrote:
Still not fully convinced the EI decision on Stobart was entirely commercial! Will be interesting to see what differences Emerald bring to the party.


There is zero basis in fact for your theory. Happy to see some evidence anytime you want to produce some.

BrianDromey wrote:
The truth is that we will never know. On one had IAG and EI can’t have been too happy that Virgin were involved in the ownership of one of their regional feeders, on the other Stobart got themselves into a fine old mess with the Connect Airways investment, SEN, Carlisle and trying to use RE to fly routes from those airports which were commercially tricky.
It was all seemed to be going well until COVID hit, but collapsed like a Ponzi scheme after that. One fact is sure, the EIR contract was exclusively EI’s to gift and they went elsewhere. Why RE could not win ATR or E-Jet operations for other airlines must have been some sort of warning sign, did they even tender for the SAS or Finnair ATR work, for example? Were there concerns about the financial viability of the airline during tender processes? Why did Stobart never use their own name for the operations out of SEN and pay flyBe a franchise fee instead? Did they know the collapse was inevitable and not want their names on grounded aircraft in 10ft letters? We’ll never know, but it does seem like EI were caught on the hop when RE did fold - how they were expected to survive with no own-brand or wet-lease flying beyond 2022 was never answered.


I doubt the ownership by Virgin would have come into play when considering this. It's not like Virgin is a competitor to Aer Lingus and more the point, Virgin is a tiny airline compared with IAG. This stake in an airline that happens to have the EI Regional contract... well I just don't buy that it was a factor here.

The rest of what you outline is pretty much where it's at. To an outside, Stobart's business was a mess and never seemed to get on anywhere very well, not to mention the ownership changes and so on. I think it had been a mess for quite some time.

Due to the fact the airline had actually been around for years previously as Aer Arann, I would say there were legacy costs involved, which a clean sheet airline like Emerald would not have, and hence the deal Emerald could offer was far sweeter. I don't believe it's any more complicated than that.

Fliplot wrote:
EI caught on the hop by the collapse of Stobart was simply bad managment. EI were responsible for seat managment, bookings, fares and marketing so how could they possibly not know. We all knew there were serious issues at Stobart didn't we?
But as you say we will never know.


I don't believe EI are responsible here and I'll tell you why. With travel effectively closed and few bookings coming in, how were EI to tell that things were bad for Stobart? EI and all the other airlines were in the same boat. It's not like suddenly Aer Lingus Regional started losing passengers while the mainline network was fine. Stobart had the contract to run as Aer Lingus Regional - Stobart were responsible for everything else. If they were unable to make money on a contract they tendered for, that is on them, not EI. EI does not have access to the financials of a totally separate company, so they would not have known the details of Stobart's finances, beyond what was in the media.

kaitak wrote:
I still think that EI had a part to play in STK's failure and in effect, stabbed them in the back. STK was operating reliably for EI for several years - great crews, great safety record ... and then, EI goes and hands its business over to a paper airline. And without that business, what prospect was there for STK? And then (as has been stated above), they were caught on the hop when it went bang. Something is just not that right with that picture..


It is entirely possible that Stobart decided to bid high on the tender renewal, thinking Aer Lingus had few to no options, plus they were the incumbent and had done all the things you say, reliable and so on. If they did that to try to make more money, so be it... but in this case, if this happened, they took a punt and it backfired on them. We can have all the sympathy for the staff of Stobart, but pushing the blame onto EI is unfair. In addition to that, none of us know the details here, so it's all speculation.

You all may be right that EI did have something to do with it - I happen to think otherwise. Considering the buyers of Stobart pulled out due to financing issues, it probably was the loss of the tender that made the numbers not stack up. That being said, it was Stobart's to lose and lose they did - so what did they do wrong? The responsibility is theirs to bid competitively to win a tender, and if they did not do that, it falls squarely at their management.
 
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Re: Irish 7/21: I remember that Summer in Dublin

Mon Jul 05, 2021 8:53 pm

kaitak wrote:
I see that Donnelly has extended the SI banning non-essential travel until the 18th July. He should visit the airport some day before then; no one seems to be paying a blind bit of notice. The gardai seem to be waving people through and I'm seeing lots of pretty full FR flights (judging by the queues). We certainly do things differently over here! Frankly, I can't blame people. The handling of the whole situation seems to be marked by utter confusion at government level. The news about the likelihood of the Irish DCC not being ready by July 19 is another example of that. We're not a low tech country; every one of the other 27 EU countries has managed to do this, why not us? What the hell is going on here? Is it ineptitude, technical incompetence or just deliberate foot dragging? It really reflects incredibly badly on us.



Indeed the Mirror reported that today :


Hundreds of Irish tourists flock to Spain from Dublin Airport as Costa del Sol snaps emerge
EXCLUSIVE: Over the weekend Irish people had no problem getting into Spain once they had a PCR test showing they were negative and a copy of their HSE vaccination document

One elderly man said: “I think I am quite within my rights to travel as an EU citizen.

“EU law overrules Irish law so as far as I am concerned the Irish Government has no legal right to stop me travelling within the EU.

www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/hund ... n-24459608
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