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gwrudolph
Posts: 576
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q3 2021

Sat Jul 24, 2021 8:49 pm

portola2727 wrote:
x1234 wrote:
Since BOM/DEL is so successful why not start SFO-BOM or EWR-BLR?

SFO-BOM/ EWR-BLR are mostly only low yield VFR traffic. SFO/EWR/ORD-DEL work because the O&D demand is very high. SFO-DEL also works because DEL is also a pretty big tech hub with connections on Air India/Vistara. For BOM, I think the next logical destinations after EWR-BOM for United to Mumbai are LAX-BOM or ORD-BOM. LAX-BOM mostly due to the film traffic between LA and Mumbai and VFR traffic. You could call it the Hollywood - Bollywood express :lol: . ORD-BOM as United could easily cash on connecting traffic from the West Coast.


For the next few years, some of this low-yielding VFR traffic may be the only game in town. Business travel isn’t likely to rebound and as others have said Asia and Oceania will be a while yet. The alternative to trying to make a few bucks on some of these VFR routes, might be keeping airplanes on the ground.
 
sfojvjets
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q3 2021

Sat Jul 24, 2021 9:52 pm

portola2727 wrote:
x1234 wrote:
Since BOM/DEL is so successful why not start SFO-BOM or EWR-BLR?

SFO-BOM/ EWR-BLR are mostly only low yield VFR traffic. SFO/EWR/ORD-DEL work because the O&D demand is very high. SFO-DEL also works because DEL is also a pretty big tech hub with connections on Air India/Vistara. For BOM, I think the next logical destinations after EWR-BOM for United to Mumbai are LAX-BOM or ORD-BOM. LAX-BOM mostly due to the film traffic between LA and Mumbai and VFR traffic. You could call it the Hollywood - Bollywood express :lol: . ORD-BOM as United could easily cash on connecting traffic from the West Coast.

It seems like you're not too familiar with the India market.... people will shell out BIG bucks to fly on a lieflat seat, even many price-conscious folks. SFO-DEL is not filled by tech, by the way – it's largely VFR since DEL is not a tech hub. J cabins on AI and UA are consistently full, solely for the reason that I pointed out earlier - there are enough people that want a flatbed to warrant a nonstop. DEL is a hot mess and no VFR traveler flying to India would subject themselves to connecting in DEL when it's much "cleaner"/more seamless (and cheaper) to connect in Europe/Middle East or even Asia and then fly onwards to arrive in your final destination.

People also questioned who would fill the back half of the plane when UA announced plans for SFO-BLR. They also don't seem to realize the immense amount of VFR traffic there is between the two cities/regions, on top of the many business travelers flying between the two.

LAX-BOM will never happen, at least not on UA. It's long and doesn't have enough premium traffic to support it IMO, so I would believe that only an Indian carrier would decide to launch it. For context, SFO-BLR is actually a couple of nautical miles *shorter* than LAX-BOM, and LAX-BOM is largely VFR. The idea of a "Hollywood-Bollywood Express" as you put it is an interesting thought, albeit quite unviable IMO. SFO-BLR has the tech traffic to warrant a nonstop, but LAX-BOM doesn't have that luxury and is probably a smaller market than SFO-BOM (perhaps someone has data for this??).

ORD/SFO-BOM are two routes that I think could be announced within the next few years. Those are markets that sorely lack nonstops despite high VFR traffic. UA would do well to boost their already-large Indian footprint.
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q3 2021

Sat Jul 24, 2021 10:08 pm

IFLYUA767 wrote:
I know that DEN was mentioned earlier in the thread but I was wondering what are some possible international routes that UA could try from DEN. CDG seems logical but I read in sone art UA while back that AKL was considered as a possibility. AKL obviously won’t happen anytime soon with the travel restrictions. Could they try anything to South America from DEN?

NZ looked at AKL-DEN at one time. I think AMS would be a better fit.
 
dcajet
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q3 2021

Sat Jul 24, 2021 10:39 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
IFLYUA767 wrote:
I know that DEN was mentioned earlier in the thread but I was wondering what are some possible international routes that UA could try from DEN. CDG seems logical but I read in sone art UA while back that AKL was considered as a possibility. AKL obviously won’t happen anytime soon with the travel restrictions. Could they try anything to South America from DEN?

NZ looked at AKL-DEN at one time. I think AMS would be a better fit.


Hmmm.. wouldn't Denver's altitude penalize such a long flight as DEN-AKL?
 
dcajet
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q3 2021

Sat Jul 24, 2021 11:07 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
jayunited wrote:
I'm waiting with my list of flights I 'd like to see United try in spring/summer of 2022 even if only for one season. I know they all won't happened but I would like to see.
IAH-CDG, IAH-FCO, LAX-FRA, LAX-TLV, DEN-AMS, DEN-CDG, ORD-BCN, ORD-ATH, EWR-NCE, EWR-PMO, IAD-VIE, (crazy as this may sound make peace with Emirates) try EWR-DXB, and also bring back/resume SFO-CDG, SFO-AMS. Again I know all of this won't happen but it would be good to see United try some of the more logical routes next summer. :D

That list is pretty reasonable and logical, IMO. In addition to your list, I'd like to see SFO/LAX-BNE, IAH-MVD/Cuzco/HKG/PVG/LOS, SFO-MEM/GRU, IAD-AKL/JNB/BDA/BER, ORD-BER, and a return of EWR to the dropped Scandinavian routes as well as HEL.


IAH-MVD, really? ;) And meanwhile American can´t make MIA-MVD work year round...
 
len90
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q3 2021

Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:48 am

Looks like UA is trying to get the 752 fleet back in service with 4 currently in maintenance after being parked. Is there any word of being able to get enough back online so they can start cycling some through the paint shop? 3127 might be the worst I have seen in a while.
 
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cosyr
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q3 2021

Sun Jul 25, 2021 1:18 am

dcajet wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
jayunited wrote:
I'm waiting with my list of flights I 'd like to see United try in spring/summer of 2022 even if only for one season. I know they all won't happened but I would like to see.
IAH-CDG, IAH-FCO, LAX-FRA, LAX-TLV, DEN-AMS, DEN-CDG, ORD-BCN, ORD-ATH, EWR-NCE, EWR-PMO, IAD-VIE, (crazy as this may sound make peace with Emirates) try EWR-DXB, and also bring back/resume SFO-CDG, SFO-AMS. Again I know all of this won't happen but it would be good to see United try some of the more logical routes next summer. :D

That list is pretty reasonable and logical, IMO. In addition to your list, I'd like to see SFO/LAX-BNE, IAH-MVD/Cuzco/HKG/PVG/LOS, SFO-MEM/GRU, IAD-AKL/JNB/BDA/BER, ORD-BER, and a return of EWR to the dropped Scandinavian routes as well as HEL.


IAH-MVD, really? ;) And meanwhile American can´t make MIA-MVD work year round...

What happened to the days of tag on routes? Some like HKG-SIN are not necessary nowadays, since there are planes that have the range, and SIN has the traffic, but EZE-MVD is a short flight, and the plane sits in EZE all day anyway. I was supposed to fly QF LAX-JFK once (I got switched to UA, because of a delay) and while QF couldn't sell tickets on that route directly, they could pool customers connecting from any of their own flights from MEL/SYD/BNE/AKL and got Load factors enough to justify it, and that was a 6 hour flight.
 
gwrudolph
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q3 2021

Sun Jul 25, 2021 1:43 am

cosyr wrote:
dcajet wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
That list is pretty reasonable and logical, IMO. In addition to your list, I'd like to see SFO/LAX-BNE, IAH-MVD/Cuzco/HKG/PVG/LOS, SFO-MEM/GRU, IAD-AKL/JNB/BDA/BER, ORD-BER, and a return of EWR to the dropped Scandinavian routes as well as HEL.


IAH-MVD, really? ;) And meanwhile American can´t make MIA-MVD work year round...

What happened to the days of tag on routes? Some like HKG-SIN are not necessary nowadays, since there are planes that have the range, and SIN has the traffic, but EZE-MVD is a short flight, and the plane sits in EZE all day anyway. I was supposed to fly QF LAX-JFK once (I got switched to UA, because of a delay) and while QF couldn't sell tickets on that route directly, they could pool customers connecting from any of their own flights from MEL/SYD/BNE/AKL and got Load factors enough to justify it, and that was a 6 hour flight.


United has long since determined that tags don’t work. You have to add an additional day of crew scheduling to do the tag. For example a two day becomes a three day or a three day becomes a four day (US-EZE day 1, rest, RT EZE-MVD, rest, EZE-US). Additionally, the fare to the second stop is often similar to the fare to the first stop yet you are using seats to the second stop that could otherwise be sold on to the first stop anyway. Extra cost with little yield benefit
Last edited by gwrudolph on Sun Jul 25, 2021 1:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
dcajet
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q3 2021

Sun Jul 25, 2021 2:02 am

gwrudolph wrote:
cosyr wrote:
dcajet wrote:

IAH-MVD, really? ;) And meanwhile American can´t make MIA-MVD work year round...

What happened to the days of tag on routes? Some like HKG-SIN are not necessary nowadays, since there are planes that have the range, and SIN has the traffic, but EZE-MVD is a short flight, and the plane sits in EZE all day anyway. I was supposed to fly QF LAX-JFK once (I got switched to UA, because of a delay) and while QF couldn't sell tickets on that route directly, they could pool customers connecting from any of their own flights from MEL/SYD/BNE/AKL and got Load factors enough to justify it, and that was a 6 hour flight.


United has long since determined that tags don’t work. You have to add an additional day of crew scheduling to do the tag. For example a two day becomes a three day or a three day becomes a four day (US-EZE day 1, rest, RT EZE-MVD, rest, EZE-US). Additionally, the fare to the second stop is often similar to the fare to the first stop yet you are using seats to the second stop that could otherwise be sold on to the first stop anyway. Extra cost with little yield benefit


Three airlines have tried recently to make the EZE-MVD tag work (AA, AF and UA) and it never worked. And the AA tag was flown by the local EZE crew base (less costs, no hotel layover) and they could funnel traffic from 4 US flights: 2 from MIA, 1 from DFW and 1 from JFK. And yet, it did not work. Seems like leaving the plane all day at EZE and performing routine maintenance during the down time (both AA and UA have maintenance bases at EZE) makes more financial sense to the bottom line.

Additionally, you can fly from MVD to Buenos Aires downtown airport, AEP which is way more convenient. Currently AR has a monopoly on the route and logically, fares are not cheap considering the distance, 137 st. miles. Both cities are also connected by frequent daily fast boat service, that connect both ports in 2hs and 15 minutes, taking most of the local traffic.

Image
 
codc10
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q3 2021

Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:00 am

len90 wrote:
Looks like UA is trying to get the 752 fleet back in service with 4 currently in maintenance after being parked. Is there any word of being able to get enough back online so they can start cycling some through the paint shop? 3127 might be the worst I have seen in a while.


3127 might have more surface area *without* paint than with, at least on the starboard side!

Some of the 777s are looking a little ragged, too.
 
portola2727
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q3 2021

Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:26 am

sfojvjets wrote:
portola2727 wrote:
x1234 wrote:
Since BOM/DEL is so successful why not start SFO-BOM or EWR-BLR?

SFO-BOM/ EWR-BLR are mostly only low yield VFR traffic. SFO/EWR/ORD-DEL work because the O&D demand is very high. SFO-DEL also works because DEL is also a pretty big tech hub with connections on Air India/Vistara. For BOM, I think the next logical destinations after EWR-BOM for United to Mumbai are LAX-BOM or ORD-BOM. LAX-BOM mostly due to the film traffic between LA and Mumbai and VFR traffic. You could call it the Hollywood - Bollywood express :lol: . ORD-BOM as United could easily cash on connecting traffic from the West Coast.

It seems like you're not too familiar with the India market.... people will shell out BIG bucks to fly on a lieflat seat, even many price-conscious folks. SFO-DEL is not filled by tech, by the way – it's largely VFR since DEL is not a tech hub. J cabins on AI and UA are consistently full, solely for the reason that I pointed out earlier - there are enough people that want a flatbed to warrant a nonstop. DEL is a hot mess and no VFR traveler flying to India would subject themselves to connecting in DEL when it's much "cleaner"/more seamless (and cheaper) to connect in Europe/Middle East or even Asia and then fly onwards to arrive in your final destination.

People also questioned who would fill the back half of the plane when UA announced plans for SFO-BLR. They also don't seem to realize the immense amount of VFR traffic there is between the two cities/regions, on top of the many business travelers flying between the two.

LAX-BOM will never happen, at least not on UA. It's long and doesn't have enough premium traffic to support it IMO, so I would believe that only an Indian carrier would decide to launch it. For context, SFO-BLR is actually a couple of nautical miles *shorter* than LAX-BOM, and LAX-BOM is largely VFR. The idea of a "Hollywood-Bollywood Express" as you put it is an interesting thought, albeit quite unviable IMO. SFO-BLR has the tech traffic to warrant a nonstop, but LAX-BOM doesn't have that luxury and is probably a smaller market than SFO-BOM (perhaps someone has data for this??).

ORD/SFO-BOM are two routes that I think could be announced within the next few years. Those are markets that sorely lack nonstops despite high VFR traffic. UA would do well to boost their already-large Indian footprint.

I fly to India(MAA) from LAX often bro. Of course I'm no expert on United's ops in India but I definitely know that there is *some*demand between LAX and Mumbai. In the COVID world right now, its much easier/cheaper to connect from SFO or EWR to DEL/BOM respectively from SoCal on United. I found and booked a ticket from LAX-MAA via SFO and DEL for sub 1000 USD per person(27 hrs one way). Contrast that to QR which is selling its LAX-DOH-MAA flights for nothing less than 1200 USD per person. Trust me when I see UA 867/868 looking more full than ever in J/Y class to connect people from SFO-DEL and beyond. Plus, I know DEL isn't as big of a tech hub compared to BLR but DEL serves cities like Gurgaon which are tech hubs, so there is definitely some tech traffic between the two cities. I'm flying SFO-DEL on UA 867 soon so I'll let you guys know what the yields are. Long shot, but could UA launch LAX-DEL? LA does have a large Indian population that travels back and forth between LA and India. Most of the India traffic is taken by EK/QR/EY/SQ/CX/LH. Now that EY has left, wondering if AI or UA could step in and launch a flight between LA and Delhi. Would be easy for me to fly LAX-DEL-MAA :smile:
Last edited by portola2727 on Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:45 am, edited 3 times in total.
 
sfojvjets
Posts: 228
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q3 2021

Sun Jul 25, 2021 5:03 am

portola2727 wrote:
sfojvjets wrote:
portola2727 wrote:
SFO-BOM/ EWR-BLR are mostly only low yield VFR traffic. SFO/EWR/ORD-DEL work because the O&D demand is very high. SFO-DEL also works because DEL is also a pretty big tech hub with connections on Air India/Vistara. For BOM, I think the next logical destinations after EWR-BOM for United to Mumbai are LAX-BOM or ORD-BOM. LAX-BOM mostly due to the film traffic between LA and Mumbai and VFR traffic. You could call it the Hollywood - Bollywood express :lol: . ORD-BOM as United could easily cash on connecting traffic from the West Coast.

It seems like you're not too familiar with the India market.... people will shell out BIG bucks to fly on a lieflat seat, even many price-conscious folks. SFO-DEL is not filled by tech, by the way – it's largely VFR since DEL is not a tech hub. J cabins on AI and UA are consistently full, solely for the reason that I pointed out earlier - there are enough people that want a flatbed to warrant a nonstop. DEL is a hot mess and no VFR traveler flying to India would subject themselves to connecting in DEL when it's much "cleaner"/more seamless (and cheaper) to connect in Europe/Middle East or even Asia and then fly onwards to arrive in your final destination.

People also questioned who would fill the back half of the plane when UA announced plans for SFO-BLR. They also don't seem to realize the immense amount of VFR traffic there is between the two cities/regions, on top of the many business travelers flying between the two.

LAX-BOM will never happen, at least not on UA. It's long and doesn't have enough premium traffic to support it IMO, so I would believe that only an Indian carrier would decide to launch it. For context, SFO-BLR is actually a couple of nautical miles *shorter* than LAX-BOM, and LAX-BOM is largely VFR. The idea of a "Hollywood-Bollywood Express" as you put it is an interesting thought, albeit quite unviable IMO. SFO-BLR has the tech traffic to warrant a nonstop, but LAX-BOM doesn't have that luxury and is probably a smaller market than SFO-BOM (perhaps someone has data for this??).

ORD/SFO-BOM are two routes that I think could be announced within the next few years. Those are markets that sorely lack nonstops despite high VFR traffic. UA would do well to boost their already-large Indian footprint.

I fly to India(MAA) from LAX often bro. Of course I'm no expert on United's ops in India but I definitely know that there is *some*demand between LAX and Mumbai. In the COVID world right now, its much easier/cheaper to connect from SFO or EWR to DEL/BOM respectively from SoCal on United. I found a ticket from LAX-MAA via SFO and DEL for sub 1000 USD per person(27 hrs one way). Contrast that to QR which is selling its LAX-DOH-MAA flights for nothing less than 1200 USD per person. Trust me when I see UA 867/868 looking more full than ever in J/Y class to connect people from SFO-DEL and beyond. Plus, I know DEL isn't as big of a tech hub compared to BLR but DEL serves cities like Gurgaon which are tech hubs, so there is definitely some tech traffic between the two cities. I'm flying SFO-DEL on UA 867 soon so I'll let you guys know what the yields are. Long shot, but could UA launch LAX-DEL? LA does have a large Indian population that travels back and forth between LA and India. Most of the India traffic is taken by EK/QR/EY/SQ/CX/LH. Now that EY has left, wondering if AI or UA could step in and launch a flight between LA and Delhi. Would be easy for me to fly LAX-DEL-MAA :smile:

That's fair. I also fly to India pretty frequently. UA's arrival time in DEL from SFO is pretty awful, although normal by Indian standards. AI's 9am departure/3pm arrival is perfect and I usually fly them once a year - the rare afternoon arrival time is more than enough to convince me to fly AI's (*very*) subpar J product over Polaris.

There is definitely demand between LAX and BOM as you say. Does it warrant a nonstop? I honestly don't think so, but I'm sure UA will launch SFO/ORD-BOM in the future and will be able to route pax via either of those hubs. They can already route them to BOM via EWR.

As you say, LAX to DEL has a much better shot at happening than LAX-BOM, but I would be very surprised to see UA jump on it, as I said earlier, and essentially cannibalize pax who would have flown LAX-SFO-DEL. I'm sure LAX-DEL could use a nonstop, and I think Vistara will be the one to fly it. AI at the moment really can't do much, even if it wanted to launch LAX. They are constrained in terms of their long-range fleet, since they do not have 789s and sorely need more 772LRs. Even if they had really wanted to launch a nonstop to LAX, AI could have done that instead of announcing ORD-HYD and SFO-BLR. But the launch of those two routes shows their propensity for growing existing US stations, rather than choosing to add new ones.
 
portola2727
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q3 2021

Sun Jul 25, 2021 5:46 am

sfojvjets wrote:
portola2727 wrote:
sfojvjets wrote:
It seems like you're not too familiar with the India market.... people will shell out BIG bucks to fly on a lieflat seat, even many price-conscious folks. SFO-DEL is not filled by tech, by the way – it's largely VFR since DEL is not a tech hub. J cabins on AI and UA are consistently full, solely for the reason that I pointed out earlier - there are enough people that want a flatbed to warrant a nonstop. DEL is a hot mess and no VFR traveler flying to India would subject themselves to connecting in DEL when it's much "cleaner"/more seamless (and cheaper) to connect in Europe/Middle East or even Asia and then fly onwards to arrive in your final destination.

People also questioned who would fill the back half of the plane when UA announced plans for SFO-BLR. They also don't seem to realize the immense amount of VFR traffic there is between the two cities/regions, on top of the many business travelers flying between the two.

LAX-BOM will never happen, at least not on UA. It's long and doesn't have enough premium traffic to support it IMO, so I would believe that only an Indian carrier would decide to launch it. For context, SFO-BLR is actually a couple of nautical miles *shorter* than LAX-BOM, and LAX-BOM is largely VFR. The idea of a "Hollywood-Bollywood Express" as you put it is an interesting thought, albeit quite unviable IMO. SFO-BLR has the tech traffic to warrant a nonstop, but LAX-BOM doesn't have that luxury and is probably a smaller market than SFO-BOM (perhaps someone has data for this??).

ORD/SFO-BOM are two routes that I think could be announced within the next few years. Those are markets that sorely lack nonstops despite high VFR traffic. UA would do well to boost their already-large Indian footprint.

I fly to India(MAA) from LAX often bro. Of course I'm no expert on United's ops in India but I definitely know that there is *some*demand between LAX and Mumbai. In the COVID world right now, its much easier/cheaper to connect from SFO or EWR to DEL/BOM respectively from SoCal on United. I found a ticket from LAX-MAA via SFO and DEL for sub 1000 USD per person(27 hrs one way). Contrast that to QR which is selling its LAX-DOH-MAA flights for nothing less than 1200 USD per person. Trust me when I see UA 867/868 looking more full than ever in J/Y class to connect people from SFO-DEL and beyond. Plus, I know DEL isn't as big of a tech hub compared to BLR but DEL serves cities like Gurgaon which are tech hubs, so there is definitely some tech traffic between the two cities. I'm flying SFO-DEL on UA 867 soon so I'll let you guys know what the yields are. Long shot, but could UA launch LAX-DEL? LA does have a large Indian population that travels back and forth between LA and India. Most of the India traffic is taken by EK/QR/EY/SQ/CX/LH. Now that EY has left, wondering if AI or UA could step in and launch a flight between LA and Delhi. Would be easy for me to fly LAX-DEL-MAA :smile:

That's fair. I also fly to India pretty frequently. UA's arrival time in DEL from SFO is pretty awful, although normal by Indian standards. AI's 9am departure/3pm arrival is perfect and I usually fly them once a year - the rare afternoon arrival time is more than enough to convince me to fly AI's (*very*) subpar J product over Polaris.

There is definitely demand between LAX and BOM as you say. Does it warrant a nonstop? I honestly don't think so, but I'm sure UA will launch SFO/ORD-BOM in the future and will be able to route pax via either of those hubs. They can already route them to BOM via EWR.

As you say, LAX to DEL has a much better shot at happening than LAX-BOM, but I would be very surprised to see UA jump on it, as I said earlier, and essentially cannibalize pax who would have flown LAX-SFO-DEL. I'm sure LAX-DEL could use a nonstop, and I think Vistara will be the one to fly it. AI at the moment really can't do much, even if it wanted to launch LAX. They are constrained in terms of their long-range fleet, since they do not have 789s and sorely need more 772LRs. Even if they had really wanted to launch a nonstop to LAX, AI could have done that instead of announcing ORD-HYD and SFO-BLR. But the launch of those two routes shows their propensity for growing existing US stations, rather than choosing to add new ones.

Honestly, I just base my trips based on time and price. I have to go to India due to a Family occasion and while booking I had two options to get from LAX-MAA, UA and QR. EK was just too expensive as they were quoting the round trip at 1400 USD during the time of booking. UA was the slower option as I have to stop over at SFO for 3 hrs and DEL for 7hrs. Plus, I have to transfer all my bags to AI at DEL to connect to MAA so that's the hassle. However, UA was the cheapest option as their ticket roundtrip was sub 1000 USD. While, QR was the faster option, it was more expensive and I have to go through a lot more COVID procedures at MAA due to my transit at DOH. All in all UA was the best option even though the layovers are definitely painful.
 
User avatar
ADent
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Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 12:11 pm

Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q3 2021

Sun Jul 25, 2021 7:53 am

codc10 wrote:

3127 might have more surface area *without* paint than with, at least on the starboard side!

Some of the 777s are looking a little ragged, too.


3127 is N48127
Here is a photo from 7 months ago (Dec 2020).
 
codc10
Posts: 3239
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2000 7:18 am

Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q3 2021

Sun Jul 25, 2021 9:11 am

ADent wrote:
codc10 wrote:

3127 might have more surface area *without* paint than with, at least on the starboard side!

Some of the 777s are looking a little ragged, too.


3127 is N48127
Here is a photo from 7 months ago (Dec 2020).


In 7 months, it’s gotten much worse. I’ve seen it at EWR a few times lately, including on Friday. It’s pretty bad.
 
aircountry
Posts: 135
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2005 1:43 pm

Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q3 2021

Sun Jul 25, 2021 9:52 am

portola2727 wrote:
x1234 wrote:
Since BOM/DEL is so successful why not start SFO-BOM or EWR-BLR?

SFO-BOM/ EWR-BLR are mostly only low yield VFR traffic. SFO/EWR/ORD-DEL work because the O&D demand is very high. SFO-DEL also works because DEL is also a pretty big tech hub with connections on Air India/Vistara. For BOM, I think the next logical destinations after EWR-BOM for United to Mumbai are LAX-BOM or ORD-BOM. LAX-BOM mostly due to the film traffic between LA and Mumbai and VFR traffic. You could call it the Hollywood - Bollywood express :lol: . ORD-BOM as United could easily cash on connecting traffic from the West Coast.


Where is Houston? Large Indian community trying to get nonstop from IAH to india either DEL or BOM for years! So far nothing show up. Seems like UA is not interesting to put IAH to BOM or DEL and they have the right aircraft to fly nonstop. Come on UA wake up. I like to see UA to add IAH to TLV
 
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Polot
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q3 2021

Sun Jul 25, 2021 10:04 am

aircountry wrote:
portola2727 wrote:
x1234 wrote:
Since BOM/DEL is so successful why not start SFO-BOM or EWR-BLR?

SFO-BOM/ EWR-BLR are mostly only low yield VFR traffic. SFO/EWR/ORD-DEL work because the O&D demand is very high. SFO-DEL also works because DEL is also a pretty big tech hub with connections on Air India/Vistara. For BOM, I think the next logical destinations after EWR-BOM for United to Mumbai are LAX-BOM or ORD-BOM. LAX-BOM mostly due to the film traffic between LA and Mumbai and VFR traffic. You could call it the Hollywood - Bollywood express :lol: . ORD-BOM as United could easily cash on connecting traffic from the West Coast.


Where is Houston? Large Indian community trying to get nonstop from IAH to india either DEL or BOM for years! So far nothing show up. Seems like UA is not interesting to put IAH to BOM or DEL and they have the right aircraft to fly nonstop. Come on UA wake up. I like to see UA to add IAH to TLV


IAH-BOM is longer than LAX-SIN (UA really doesn’t have a suitable aircraft for this). IAH-DEL is almost as long as SFO-SIN. For those flights to work you need more than a large Indian community, you need a significant amount of business travel.
 
aircountry
Posts: 135
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2005 1:43 pm

Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q3 2021

Sun Jul 25, 2021 10:41 am

Polot wrote:
aircountry wrote:
portola2727 wrote:
SFO-BOM/ EWR-BLR are mostly only low yield VFR traffic. SFO/EWR/ORD-DEL work because the O&D demand is very high. SFO-DEL also works because DEL is also a pretty big tech hub with connections on Air India/Vistara. For BOM, I think the next logical destinations after EWR-BOM for United to Mumbai are LAX-BOM or ORD-BOM. LAX-BOM mostly due to the film traffic between LA and Mumbai and VFR traffic. You could call it the Hollywood - Bollywood express :lol: . ORD-BOM as United could easily cash on connecting traffic from the West Coast.


Where is Houston? Large Indian community trying to get nonstop from IAH to india either DEL or BOM for years! So far nothing show up. Seems like UA is not interesting to put IAH to BOM or DEL and they have the right aircraft to fly nonstop. Come on UA wake up. I like to see UA to add IAH to TLV


IAH-BOM is longer than LAX-SIN (UA really doesn’t have a suitable aircraft for this). IAH-DEL is almost as long as SFO-SIN. For those flights to work you need more than a large Indian community, you need a significant amount of business travel.


IAH-BOM can make the leg and 787-9 range is 14,800km. IAH-BOM is 14,430km. PER-LHR on QF range is 14,499km is longer than IAH to BOM. I would say yes it can make it nonstop.
 
NZ321
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q3 2021

Sun Jul 25, 2021 11:22 am

STT757 wrote:
Another route is EWR-Cairo, at one point Continental announced the route and was about the launch but events altered that plan. Also EWR-Casablanca. And if China is sunk for a while due to many factors, they could put more into India. EWR-Hyderabad, EWR-Bangalore, EWR-Chennai.


Isn't Cairo and - for that matter - Istanbul, currently blocked for US carriers due to security concerns?
 
jayunited
Posts: 3608
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q3 2021

Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:50 pm

Simple Flying did an article on United wanting to keep a larger leisure domestic footprint. (I know its Simple flying and how people on this site feel about them the feeling is mutual but sometimes they do put out an article or two that raises few questions).

In the article United is quotes saying they intend to not only keep leisure flying but United wants to increase leisure routes and frequency moving forward. One market in particular that was mentioned is Florida which is probably one if not the largest leisure market in the lower 48, California could rival Florida as well I'm not sure.

https://simpleflying.com/united-larger- ... rint/After reading the article the

We are now nearing the end of July 2021 we have been in this pandemic since March of 2020 other airlines have made some aggressive moves in Florida throughout this pandemic and while United has made some moves we have not been as aggressive as perhaps could have been (maybe should have been). After reading the article my questions are, it is too little too late for United in Florida, has the ship sailed and we've missed the boat? Just about every other major carrier whether they are legacy, LCC, ULCC, or niche have all made some major moves in the Florida market and the article touches on it and how United didn't perform as well financially in Q1 as our peers because we are still lagging in leisure markets but obviously United is seeing some good financial numbers out of Florida.

At this point in the pandemic I don't see how or where United can set up a mini-hub or even a focus station in Florida the airports on both the east and west coasts of Florida are already full with the competition. With so many establish players already in the market are there any airports with gates available where United could scale up its operation? Lastly why has it taken United this long to realize the importance of FLORIDA in an airlines domestic network?
 
tphuang
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q3 2021

Sun Jul 25, 2021 1:23 pm

jayunited wrote:
Simple Flying did an article on United wanting to keep a larger leisure domestic footprint. (I know its Simple flying and how people on this site feel about them the feeling is mutual but sometimes they do put out an article or two that raises few questions).

In the article United is quotes saying they intend to not only keep leisure flying but United wants to increase leisure routes and frequency moving forward. One market in particular that was mentioned is Florida which is probably one if not the largest leisure market in the lower 48, California could rival Florida as well I'm not sure.

https://simpleflying.com/united-larger- ... rint/After reading the article the

We are now nearing the end of July 2021 we have been in this pandemic since March of 2020 other airlines have made some aggressive moves in Florida throughout this pandemic and while United has made some moves we have not been as aggressive as perhaps could have been (maybe should have been). After reading the article my questions are, it is too little too late for United in Florida, has the ship sailed and we've missed the boat? Just about every other major carrier whether they are legacy, LCC, ULCC, or niche have all made some major moves in the Florida market and the article touches on it and how United didn't perform as well financially in Q1 as our peers because we are still lagging in leisure markets but obviously United is seeing some good financial numbers out of Florida.

At this point in the pandemic I don't see how or where United can set up a mini-hub or even a focus station in Florida the airports on both the east and west coasts of Florida are already full with the competition. With so many establish players already in the market are there any airports with gates available where United could scale up its operation? Lastly why has it taken United this long to realize the importance of FLORIDA in an airlines domestic network?


I feel like this is just a structural disadvantage UA faces. CLT and ATL work because they are gigantic operations at airports with really low CPEs. There really isn't another airport with enough gate space or low CPEs to compete with those two. If you look at a station like MCO, it's probably a way below average station in RASM for DL and AA that brings a huge amount of benefits to their network by helping DL/AA fill seats on other flights to ATL I general, I think UA route planners probably didn't see the need to chase low yielding connection focused Florida traffic when IAD and EWR all have really high costs (much higher than CLT/ATL), when they could make more money connecting people to Europe through those stations.

But long term, I don't see how any of the big 3 or even WN could compete in Florida against ULCC pressure outside of AA @ MIA. If you see my posts in JetBlue network thread, you'd see that I'm lamenting the fact that a large MCO presence is probably not going to work out for B6 at this point.
 
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STT757
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q3 2021

Sun Jul 25, 2021 1:57 pm

dcajet wrote:
gwrudolph wrote:
cosyr wrote:
What happened to the days of tag on routes? Some like HKG-SIN are not necessary nowadays, since there are planes that have the range, and SIN has the traffic, but EZE-MVD is a short flight, and the plane sits in EZE all day anyway. I was supposed to fly QF LAX-JFK once (I got switched to UA, because of a delay) and while QF couldn't sell tickets on that route directly, they could pool customers connecting from any of their own flights from MEL/SYD/BNE/AKL and got Load factors enough to justify it, and that was a 6 hour flight.


United has long since determined that tags don’t work. You have to add an additional day of crew scheduling to do the tag. For example a two day becomes a three day or a three day becomes a four day (US-EZE day 1, rest, RT EZE-MVD, rest, EZE-US). Additionally, the fare to the second stop is often similar to the fare to the first stop yet you are using seats to the second stop that could otherwise be sold on to the first stop anyway. Extra cost with little yield benefit


Three airlines have tried recently to make the EZE-MVD tag work (AA, AF and UA) and it never worked. And the AA tag was flown by the local EZE crew base (less costs, no hotel layover) and they could funnel traffic from 4 US flights: 2 from MIA, 1 from DFW and 1 from JFK. And yet, it did not work. Seems like leaving the plane all day at EZE and performing routine maintenance during the down time (both AA and UA have maintenance bases at EZE) makes more financial sense to the bottom line.

Additionally, you can fly from MVD to Buenos Aires downtown airport, AEP which is way more convenient. Currently AR has a monopoly on the route and logically, fares are not cheap considering the distance, 137 st. miles. Both cities are also connected by frequent daily fast boat service, that connect both ports in 2hs and 15 minutes, taking most of the local traffic.

Image


The second largest Uruguayan population in the US is New Jersey, in fact Elizabeth New Jersey, which EWR is partially in, has more Uruguayan Americans than Miami. Pan Am and United's service to MVD was tagged onto their EZE flights from JFK. If UA were to fly to MVD they need to figure out how to do it via EWR. I don't think an A321XLR could do it,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uruguayan_Americans
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q3 2021

Sun Jul 25, 2021 2:01 pm

STT757 wrote:
dcajet wrote:
gwrudolph wrote:

United has long since determined that tags don’t work. You have to add an additional day of crew scheduling to do the tag. For example a two day becomes a three day or a three day becomes a four day (US-EZE day 1, rest, RT EZE-MVD, rest, EZE-US). Additionally, the fare to the second stop is often similar to the fare to the first stop yet you are using seats to the second stop that could otherwise be sold on to the first stop anyway. Extra cost with little yield benefit


Three airlines have tried recently to make the EZE-MVD tag work (AA, AF and UA) and it never worked. And the AA tag was flown by the local EZE crew base (less costs, no hotel layover) and they could funnel traffic from 4 US flights: 2 from MIA, 1 from DFW and 1 from JFK. And yet, it did not work. Seems like leaving the plane all day at EZE and performing routine maintenance during the down time (both AA and UA have maintenance bases at EZE) makes more financial sense to the bottom line.

Additionally, you can fly from MVD to Buenos Aires downtown airport, AEP which is way more convenient. Currently AR has a monopoly on the route and logically, fares are not cheap considering the distance, 137 st. miles. Both cities are also connected by frequent daily fast boat service, that connect both ports in 2hs and 15 minutes, taking most of the local traffic.

Image


The second largest Uruguayan population in the US is New Jersey, in fact Elizabeth New Jersey, which EWR is partially in, has more Uruguayan Americans than Miami. Pan Am and United's service to MVD was tagged onto their EZE flights from JFK. If UA were to fly to MVD they need to figure out how to do it via EWR. I don't think an A321XLR could do it,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uruguayan_Americans


I don’t think MVD would be in the cards from anywhere. UA has been extremely conservative in Latin America. If they did expand, I’d imagine GYE, MDE, CLO, and CTG would be the main candidates. Probably from IAH.
 
jayunited
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q3 2021

Sun Jul 25, 2021 2:12 pm

tphuang wrote:
I feel like this is just a structural disadvantage UA faces. CLT and ATL work because they are gigantic operations at airports with really low CPEs. There really isn't another airport with enough gate space or low CPEs to compete with those two. If you look at a station like MCO, it's probably a way below average station in RASM for DL and AA that brings a huge amount of benefits to their network by helping DL/AA fill seats on other flights to ATL I general, I think UA route planners probably didn't see the need to chase low yielding connection focused Florida traffic when IAD and EWR all have really high costs (much higher than CLT/ATL), when they could make more money connecting people to Europe through those stations.

But long term, I don't see how any of the big 3 or even WN could compete in Florida against ULCC pressure outside of AA @ MIA. If you see my posts in JetBlue network thread, you'd see that I'm lamenting the fact that a large MCO presence is probably not going to work out for B6 at this point.



So then domestically what would be a good leisure market or markets United could go after because I agree I don't see how at this point United can do anything more than what we've already done in Florida given the competition at all of Florida's airports. I think the Florida ship has sailed and United is simply out of luck in that market.
 
tphuang
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q3 2021

Sun Jul 25, 2021 2:34 pm

jayunited wrote:
tphuang wrote:
I feel like this is just a structural disadvantage UA faces. CLT and ATL work because they are gigantic operations at airports with really low CPEs. There really isn't another airport with enough gate space or low CPEs to compete with those two. If you look at a station like MCO, it's probably a way below average station in RASM for DL and AA that brings a huge amount of benefits to their network by helping DL/AA fill seats on other flights to ATL I general, I think UA route planners probably didn't see the need to chase low yielding connection focused Florida traffic when IAD and EWR all have really high costs (much higher than CLT/ATL), when they could make more money connecting people to Europe through those stations.

But long term, I don't see how any of the big 3 or even WN could compete in Florida against ULCC pressure outside of AA @ MIA. If you see my posts in JetBlue network thread, you'd see that I'm lamenting the fact that a large MCO presence is probably not going to work out for B6 at this point.



So then domestically what would be a good leisure market or markets United could go after because I agree I don't see how at this point United can do anything more than what we've already done in Florida given the competition at all of Florida's airports. I think the Florida ship has sailed and United is simply out of luck in that market.


I think ua does pretty well with ski resorts and national parks. Although, those are smaller markets compared to Florida. Also, ua does well to Hawaii. All my recent trips,.I found ua to have best schedule to Hawaii.
 
sldispatcher
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q3 2021

Sun Jul 25, 2021 2:56 pm

jayunited wrote:
Simple Flying did an article on United wanting to keep a larger leisure domestic footprint. (I know its Simple flying and how people on this site feel about them the feeling is mutual but sometimes they do put out an article or two that raises few questions).

In the article United is quotes saying they intend to not only keep leisure flying but United wants to increase leisure routes and frequency moving forward. One market in particular that was mentioned is Florida which is probably one if not the largest leisure market in the lower 48, California could rival Florida as well I'm not sure.

https://simpleflying.com/united-larger- ... rint/After reading the article the

We are now nearing the end of July 2021 we have been in this pandemic since March of 2020 other airlines have made some aggressive moves in Florida throughout this pandemic and while United has made some moves we have not been as aggressive as perhaps could have been (maybe should have been). After reading the article my questions are, it is too little too late for United in Florida, has the ship sailed and we've missed the boat? Just about every other major carrier whether they are legacy, LCC, ULCC, or niche have all made some major moves in the Florida market and the article touches on it and how United didn't perform as well financially in Q1 as our peers because we are still lagging in leisure markets but obviously United is seeing some good financial numbers out of Florida.

At this point in the pandemic I don't see how or where United can set up a mini-hub or even a focus station in Florida the airports on both the east and west coasts of Florida are already full with the competition. With so many establish players already in the market are there any airports with gates available where United could scale up its operation? Lastly why has it taken United this long to realize the importance of FLORIDA in an airlines domestic network?


I feel like the route planners are very disciplined in terms of metrics. Gauge is probably more effective than trying to do xxx-mco/fll/tpa/mia etc nonstop.

I personally think they ought to stick with their game plan of higher yielding customers/experience.

I had to fly Delta yesterday and it was disastrous from check in to boarding to misconnect etc. i was surrounded by Florida bound passengers on the first leg and it was not the most pleasant experience personally.

The majority of Florida bound passengers have different priorities than I do in terms of travel experience. Not saying one is superior to the other.

As far as the EXTREMELY tiresome argument about United not having a SE hub, I simply say ‘so what’? To get people to Florida from 7 states? Every other state has adequate connections via IAD, EWR, ORD, and DEN.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q3 2021

Sun Jul 25, 2021 3:46 pm

sldispatcher wrote:
As far as the EXTREMELY tiresome argument about United not having a SE hub, I simply say ‘so what’? To get people to Florida from 7 states? Every other state has adequate connections via IAD, EWR, ORD, and DEN.


It's a basic economics-of-geography argument that you don't seem to accept: location matters. Why do you think SFO is UA's primary TPAC hub instead of Denver?

Look at the Florida destination counts (and frequencies, and seats) of DL at ATL and AA at CLT -- they perform aggregation functions to the Southeast that UA just can't get out of IAH/ORD/IAD/EWR. Aggregation is the key to higher destination counts (which becomes self-reinforcing); it's also key to upgauging for lower CASM, as explicitly acknowledged in United Next.

I won't argue that building a SE hub is UA's best use of resources. (Similarly, I won't argue DL should build a TX hub to try to compete with DFW/DAL/IAH/HOU.) But I accept that UA will not be on equal footing with AA/DL without one -- and there isn't a good location available for a 3rd domestic SE hub (MIA is a LatAm/Caribbean hub and too far south; MCO is too fractured by other carriers to build mass; BNA has too little O&D and WN already).
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q3 2021

Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:58 pm

sldispatcher wrote:
jayunited wrote:
Simple Flying did an article on United wanting to keep a larger leisure domestic footprint. (I know its Simple flying and how people on this site feel about them the feeling is mutual but sometimes they do put out an article or two that raises few questions).

In the article United is quotes saying they intend to not only keep leisure flying but United wants to increase leisure routes and frequency moving forward. One market in particular that was mentioned is Florida which is probably one if not the largest leisure market in the lower 48, California could rival Florida as well I'm not sure.

https://simpleflying.com/united-larger- ... rint/After reading the article the

We are now nearing the end of July 2021 we have been in this pandemic since March of 2020 other airlines have made some aggressive moves in Florida throughout this pandemic and while United has made some moves we have not been as aggressive as perhaps could have been (maybe should have been). After reading the article my questions are, it is too little too late for United in Florida, has the ship sailed and we've missed the boat? Just about every other major carrier whether they are legacy, LCC, ULCC, or niche have all made some major moves in the Florida market and the article touches on it and how United didn't perform as well financially in Q1 as our peers because we are still lagging in leisure markets but obviously United is seeing some good financial numbers out of Florida.

At this point in the pandemic I don't see how or where United can set up a mini-hub or even a focus station in Florida the airports on both the east and west coasts of Florida are already full with the competition. With so many establish players already in the market are there any airports with gates available where United could scale up its operation? Lastly why has it taken United this long to realize the importance of FLORIDA in an airlines domestic network?


I feel like the route planners are very disciplined in terms of metrics. Gauge is probably more effective than trying to do xxx-mco/fll/tpa/mia etc nonstop.

I personally think they ought to stick with their game plan of higher yielding customers/experience.

I had to fly Delta yesterday and it was disastrous from check in to boarding to misconnect etc. i was surrounded by Florida bound passengers on the first leg and it was not the most pleasant experience personally.

The majority of Florida bound passengers have different priorities than I do in terms of travel experience. Not saying one is superior to the other.


I think you are conflating two things here:

Just because ULCCs/LCCs fly to Florida doesn't mean high-yielding customers don't fly there....

You think AA is operating close to 30 widebodies a day domestically now from MIA in a play for low-yielding customers??

MIflyer12 wrote:
sldispatcher wrote:
As far as the EXTREMELY tiresome argument about United not having a SE hub, I simply say ‘so what’? To get people to Florida from 7 states? Every other state has adequate connections via IAD, EWR, ORD, and DEN.


Look at the Florida destination counts (and frequencies, and seats) of DL at ATL and AA at CLT -- they perform aggregation functions to the Southeast that UA just can't get out of IAH/ORD/IAD/EWR. Aggregation is the key to higher destination counts (which becomes self-reinforcing); it's also key to upgauging for lower CASM, as explicitly acknowledged in United Next.


Exactly, I pulled the top 35 markets from MCO (similar map for TPA/FLL/RSW/MIA/e.t.c) and it's abundantly clear UA's hub placement is very weak in serving the Florida market (obviously it serves benefits in other realms).

Ideally IAD would serve as the Northeast connector to Florida, but IAD has so few banks that it is difficult to provide the right timings for a large portion of trips. And, UA has said they want EWR to focus on O&D, not that it is a good connector to Florida regardless.


Image

Ignoring the whole SE hub piece, UA's service to Florida is terrible. You can't even fly United from California to all of South Florida since they keep pushing back the restart of SFO-FLL/MIA.

I think the solution remains to focus on p2p flights during peak season, not build a new hub. In the Q1 2021 fare performance for some of the p2p routes they operated to Florida, they vastly outperformed the competition on some of those routes, not a chance that happens without nonstop options available with the connection selection they have in some of these markets.
 
Jshank83
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q3 2021

Sun Jul 25, 2021 5:11 pm

^ back when UA started all the routes to HHH/MYR/etc I had heard they might shift them to Florida flying in the winter. Probably need to hear something fairly soon if that’s the case.
 
codc10
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q3 2021

Sun Jul 25, 2021 5:14 pm

UA has access to gate space at TPA, MCO and RSW that can support more flying than they are doing at the moment. Certainly nothing on the scale of a hub, but additional flying within the existing footprint of gates, fleet and employees is probably what United is envisioning.
 
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calpsafltskeds
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q3 2021

Sun Jul 25, 2021 5:28 pm

A hub has spokes in all directions to provide connections.
ATL for DL and MIA for AA have domestic and/or international connections at both those airports. MCO is a huge market that is more leisure related. It is similar to LAS in location and market. A hub through either would mix connecting business traffic with local leisure traffic. Can it be done, maybe if yields and capacity works.
In any case international services to the Caribbean would be a must from MCO or other SE hub opportunity and would only add Southeastern US to the Caribbean or Florida for UA as most of the US can get there via current UA hubs.
ATL has a huge influence on the SE and I really don't know what second SE choice of a hub would work. Point to point from large UA non-hub airports like BOS might pull in enough O&D to work, but there's plenty of competition on those routes already. UA could also try RJs from Midwest cities to FL if schedules, yields and competition could be assessed.
 
len90
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q3 2021

Sun Jul 25, 2021 7:24 pm

codc10 wrote:
ADent wrote:
codc10 wrote:

3127 might have more surface area *without* paint than with, at least on the starboard side!

Some of the 777s are looking a little ragged, too.


3127 is N48127
Here is a photo from 7 months ago (Dec 2020).


In 7 months, it’s gotten much worse. I’ve seen it at EWR a few times lately, including on Friday. It’s pretty bad.

Photographed it yesterday morning landing at EWR. It’s getting worse by the day…
 
gwrudolph
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q3 2021

Sun Jul 25, 2021 8:14 pm

STT757 wrote:
dcajet wrote:
gwrudolph wrote:

United has long since determined that tags don’t work. You have to add an additional day of crew scheduling to do the tag. For example a two day becomes a three day or a three day becomes a four day (US-EZE day 1, rest, RT EZE-MVD, rest, EZE-US). Additionally, the fare to the second stop is often similar to the fare to the first stop yet you are using seats to the second stop that could otherwise be sold on to the first stop anyway. Extra cost with little yield benefit


Three airlines have tried recently to make the EZE-MVD tag work (AA, AF and UA) and it never worked. And the AA tag was flown by the local EZE crew base (less costs, no hotel layover) and they could funnel traffic from 4 US flights: 2 from MIA, 1 from DFW and 1 from JFK. And yet, it did not work. Seems like leaving the plane all day at EZE and performing routine maintenance during the down time (both AA and UA have maintenance bases at EZE) makes more financial sense to the bottom line.

Additionally, you can fly from MVD to Buenos Aires downtown airport, AEP which is way more convenient. Currently AR has a monopoly on the route and logically, fares are not cheap considering the distance, 137 st. miles. Both cities are also connected by frequent daily fast boat service, that connect both ports in 2hs and 15 minutes, taking most of the local traffic.

Image


The second largest Uruguayan population in the US is New Jersey, in fact Elizabeth New Jersey, which EWR is partially in, has more Uruguayan Americans than Miami. Pan Am and United's service to MVD was tagged onto their EZE flights from JFK. If UA were to fly to MVD they need to figure out how to do it via EWR. I don't think an A321XLR could do it,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uruguayan_Americans


It’s not going to happen. United and the others have given up on tags. They don’t bring the necessary incremental revenue to cover the incremental costs and potential complications.
 
gwrudolph
Posts: 576
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q3 2021

Sun Jul 25, 2021 8:23 pm

jayunited wrote:
tphuang wrote:
I feel like this is just a structural disadvantage UA faces. CLT and ATL work because they are gigantic operations at airports with really low CPEs. There really isn't another airport with enough gate space or low CPEs to compete with those two. If you look at a station like MCO, it's probably a way below average station in RASM for DL and AA that brings a huge amount of benefits to their network by helping DL/AA fill seats on other flights to ATL I general, I think UA route planners probably didn't see the need to chase low yielding connection focused Florida traffic when IAD and EWR all have really high costs (much higher than CLT/ATL), when they could make more money connecting people to Europe through those stations.

But long term, I don't see how any of the big 3 or even WN could compete in Florida against ULCC pressure outside of AA @ MIA. If you see my posts in JetBlue network thread, you'd see that I'm lamenting the fact that a large MCO presence is probably not going to work out for B6 at this point.



So then domestically what would be a good leisure market or markets United could go after because I agree I don't see how at this point United can do anything more than what we've already done in Florida given the competition at all of Florida's airports. I think the Florida ship has sailed and United is simply out of luck in that market.


I think more focus on existing hub to leisure destinations makes sense which is exactly what they are doing. Trying to open up a whole bunch of point to points or a SE hub doesn’t make any sense. Upguage and increase frequency a bit on the existing hub-FL, consider more SFO and/or LAX to FL maybe but that’s about it. I think United’s renewed focus to FL since the merger is a great play. Prior to that, they had just about pulled out of the smaller FL cities. Heck, for a while there, they even pulled completely out of FLL!?!?!

Also focus on leisure might also take the form of being a bit more aggressive with leisure travelers in mixed markets MSY, NYC, DEN, PHX, TUS, SFO, LAX, SAN, SEA, PDX, and more.
 
AC4500
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q3 2021

Sun Jul 25, 2021 8:53 pm

gwrudolph wrote:
jayunited wrote:
tphuang wrote:
I feel like this is just a structural disadvantage UA faces. CLT and ATL work because they are gigantic operations at airports with really low CPEs. There really isn't another airport with enough gate space or low CPEs to compete with those two. If you look at a station like MCO, it's probably a way below average station in RASM for DL and AA that brings a huge amount of benefits to their network by helping DL/AA fill seats on other flights to ATL I general, I think UA route planners probably didn't see the need to chase low yielding connection focused Florida traffic when IAD and EWR all have really high costs (much higher than CLT/ATL), when they could make more money connecting people to Europe through those stations.

But long term, I don't see how any of the big 3 or even WN could compete in Florida against ULCC pressure outside of AA @ MIA. If you see my posts in JetBlue network thread, you'd see that I'm lamenting the fact that a large MCO presence is probably not going to work out for B6 at this point.



So then domestically what would be a good leisure market or markets United could go after because I agree I don't see how at this point United can do anything more than what we've already done in Florida given the competition at all of Florida's airports. I think the Florida ship has sailed and United is simply out of luck in that market.


I think more focus on existing hub to leisure destinations makes sense which is exactly what they are doing. Trying to open up a whole bunch of point to points or a SE hub doesn’t make any sense. Upguage and increase frequency a bit on the existing hub-FL, consider more SFO and/or LAX to FL maybe but that’s about it. I think United’s renewed focus to FL since the merger is a great play. Prior to that, they had just about pulled out of the smaller FL cities. Heck, for a while there, they even pulled completely out of FLL!?!?!

Also focus on leisure might also take the form of being a bit more aggressive with leisure travelers in mixed markets MSY, NYC, DEN, PHX, TUS, SFO, LAX, SAN, SEA, PDX, and more.

Maybe I'm just forgetting what UA's network was like pre-COVID, but it seems like UA is actually getting much stronger in the Pacific Northwest. Some routes including SEA-EWR, PDX-ORD, and PDX-IAD are already well-above 2019 capacity,

When UA announced their east-coast P2P routes, I thought that they would eventually have some west-coast ones coming online as well. Although, I guess AS has the Pacific Northwest covered very well, and P2P routes from there would also directly overfly their SFO hub as well, which is already suffering enough on it's own as it is. Taking away even just a little bit of connecting traffic from SFO would only further slowdown SFO's already very-rough road to recovery.
 
FlyHossD
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q3 2021

Sun Jul 25, 2021 9:04 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
...Ignoring the whole SE hub piece, UA's service to Florida is terrible. You can't even fly United from California to all of South Florida since they keep pushing back the restart of SFO-FLL/MIA.


Well, you scared me - I'm flying United SFO-FLL tomorrow! Yes, that involves a connection in DEN. I show 3 DEN-FLL flights on UAL for Monday.

I believe this is part of United's ongoing strategy to maximize the mid-America connections as part of the COVID-19 recovery plan.
 
jayunited
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q3 2021

Sun Jul 25, 2021 10:05 pm

sldispatcher wrote:
I feel like the route planners are very disciplined in terms of metrics. Gauge is probably more effective than trying to do xxx-mco/fll/tpa/mia etc nonstop.

I personally think they ought to stick with their game plan of higher yielding customers/experience.

I had to fly Delta yesterday and it was disastrous from check in to boarding to misconnect etc. i was surrounded by Florida bound passengers on the first leg and it was not the most pleasant experience personally.

The majority of Florida bound passengers have different priorities than I do in terms of travel experience. Not saying one is superior to the other.

As far as the EXTREMELY tiresome argument about United not having a SE hub, I simply say ‘so what’? To get people to Florida from 7 states? Every other state has adequate connections via IAD, EWR, ORD, and DEN.



First let me say I'm not advocating for any type of South East hub.

Now that I've gotten that out I feel as though United must be seeing some type of positive financial return on their initial investment to beef up Florida else they would not be saying United will keep what we already have in Florida and while looking for opportunities to expand in the market. After reading the article and seeing what Andrew had to say I just feel like it is to late for United to do more in Florida because since the beginning of the pandemic AA, DL, WN, B6, NK, F9 have all been more aggressive in growing their presence in Florida while United took baby steps.

Also I'm not sure Florida is as low yielding as your post make it seem especially since the great migration that took place as a result of the pandemic. Speaking of the migration that has taken place as a result of the pandemic and the rise of work from home possible hybrid work week (2-3 days in the office) could this also be one of the reason UA is now taking a hard look at Florida? My husband just heard from his boss today (the official announcement/email will be sent out tomorrow) they will continue work from home through the summer of 2022. It is just one company but I am wondering how many United frequency flyers with and without status now reside in Florida as a result of the migration that has taken place? Could that be fueling United's interest in maintaining what we already have and growing our presence in Florida which is still a major leisure market but could become a larger business market as a result of the pandemic's migration?
 
SELMER40
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q3 2021

Sun Jul 25, 2021 10:32 pm

jayunited wrote:
At this point in the pandemic I don't see how or where United can set up a mini-hub ...

Memphis could provide as many gates United would want. Has been a hub before.
 
jbs2886
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q3 2021

Sun Jul 25, 2021 10:51 pm

SELMER40 wrote:
jayunited wrote:
At this point in the pandemic I don't see how or where United can set up a mini-hub ...

Memphis could provide as many gates United would want. Has been a hub before.


It’s not about having gates, it’s about sufficient O&D to justify a hub.
 
x1234
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q3 2021

Sun Jul 25, 2021 11:15 pm

The only reason to fly SFO-MIA is for *A Latin connections which in this age UA can provide itself via IAH.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q3 2021

Sun Jul 25, 2021 11:59 pm

x1234 wrote:
The only reason to fly SFO-MIA is for *A Latin connections which in this age UA can provide itself via IAH.


huh?

SFO-MIA is a massive market.... if you combine FLL, SFO-MIA/FLL is a top 10 market from SFO.

jayunited wrote:
sldispatcher wrote:
I feel like the route planners are very disciplined in terms of metrics. Gauge is probably more effective than trying to do xxx-mco/fll/tpa/mia etc nonstop.

I personally think they ought to stick with their game plan of higher yielding customers/experience.

I had to fly Delta yesterday and it was disastrous from check in to boarding to misconnect etc. i was surrounded by Florida bound passengers on the first leg and it was not the most pleasant experience personally.

The majority of Florida bound passengers have different priorities than I do in terms of travel experience. Not saying one is superior to the other.

As far as the EXTREMELY tiresome argument about United not having a SE hub, I simply say ‘so what’? To get people to Florida from 7 states? Every other state has adequate connections via IAD, EWR, ORD, and DEN.


Also I'm not sure Florida is as low yielding as your post make it seem especially since the great migration that took place as a result of the pandemic. It is just one company but I am wondering how many United frequency flyers with and without status now reside in Florida as a result of the migration that has taken place? Could that be fueling United's interest in maintaining what we already have and growing our presence in Florida which is still a major leisure market but could become a larger business market as a result of the pandemic's migration?


This phenomenon was largely always the case, rich Northerners have always been vacationing/residing in Florida for large parts of the year.

It's a market UA has actively ignored for many years, and it's cost them business from passengers not in IAD, IAH, EWR, or ORD who want to fly nonstop or have an easy connection to vacation.
 
tphuang
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q3 2021

Mon Jul 26, 2021 12:33 am

I think not being able to conveniently carry non-hub customers from where they are to Florida is just something UA has to live with. UA has to play to its strength. DEN is probably doing really great right now carrying people to all the national parks and ski resorts around there. UA is the #1 carrier from continental USA to Hawaii. These are all markets that ULCCs aren't getting into right now. Has to be higher yielding than Florida. There are a lot of international leisure destinations where ULCCs don't do well due to high taxes. UA has great hubs in EWR, IAD and ORD that can take people to various TATL leisure destinations. Just think about all the destinations they've been able to try out of EWR. There are plenty of people that are willing to fly UA for most of their needs and then maybe WN or DL to Florida.

I don't see how IAD can ever compete with ATL or CLT to Florida due to its high costs and not having as many gates. It has a lot of transcon and TATL demand from a top 5 domestic market. I think UA should add more flights to Caribbean from IAD. The number of year round destinations to Latin America from IAD is pretty small. People on east coast don't want to connect at IAH. There should also be a lot of natural demand there from DC and Northern Virginia.
 
dcajet
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q3 2021

Mon Jul 26, 2021 2:01 am

LAXdude1023 wrote:
STT757 wrote:
dcajet wrote:

Three airlines have tried recently to make the EZE-MVD tag work (AA, AF and UA) and it never worked. And the AA tag was flown by the local EZE crew base (less costs, no hotel layover) and they could funnel traffic from 4 US flights: 2 from MIA, 1 from DFW and 1 from JFK. And yet, it did not work. Seems like leaving the plane all day at EZE and performing routine maintenance during the down time (both AA and UA have maintenance bases at EZE) makes more financial sense to the bottom line.

Additionally, you can fly from MVD to Buenos Aires downtown airport, AEP which is way more convenient. Currently AR has a monopoly on the route and logically, fares are not cheap considering the distance, 137 st. miles. Both cities are also connected by frequent daily fast boat service, that connect both ports in 2hs and 15 minutes, taking most of the local traffic.

Image


The second largest Uruguayan population in the US is New Jersey, in fact Elizabeth New Jersey, which EWR is partially in, has more Uruguayan Americans than Miami. Pan Am and United's service to MVD was tagged onto their EZE flights from JFK. If UA were to fly to MVD they need to figure out how to do it via EWR. I don't think an A321XLR could do it,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uruguayan_Americans


I don’t think MVD would be in the cards from anywhere. UA has been extremely conservative in Latin America. If they did expand, I’d imagine GYE, MDE, CLO, and CTG would be the main candidates. Probably from IAH.


Pandemic aside, it seems that AA can only make a profit at MVD from November thru March, during the Southern Cone's summer and high season. Currently the "new" Eastern is the only US carrier flying regularly to MVD twice a week. There is hardly a business case to fly nonstop to Uruguay (and Paraguay and Bolivia I'd add) from anywhere in the US other than Miami.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q3 2021

Mon Jul 26, 2021 2:38 am

tphuang wrote:
I think not being able to conveniently carry non-hub customers from where they are to Florida is just something UA has to live with. UA has to play to its strength. DEN is probably doing really great right now carrying people to all the national parks and ski resorts around there. UA is the #1 carrier from continental USA to Hawaii. These are all markets that ULCCs aren't getting into right now. Has to be higher yielding than Florida. There are a lot of international leisure destinations where ULCCs don't do well due to high taxes. UA has great hubs in EWR, IAD and ORD that can take people to various TATL leisure destinations. Just think about all the destinations they've been able to try out of EWR. There are plenty of people that are willing to fly UA for most of their needs and then maybe WN or DL to Florida.

I don't see how IAD can ever compete with ATL or CLT to Florida due to its high costs and not having as many gates. It has a lot of transcon and TATL demand from a top 5 domestic market. I think UA should add more flights to Caribbean from IAD. The number of year round destinations to Latin America from IAD is pretty small. People on east coast don't want to connect at IAH. There should also be a lot of natural demand there from DC and Northern Virginia.


National parks and ski resorts aren't large markets, and National parks are only relatively popular for around 3 months out of the year.

The additional nonstops to Florida, which United considered an experiment, “performed extremely well for us,” Ankit Gupta, the carrier’s vice president of domestic network planning, said in an interview.

From this thread last quarter:
Domestic recovery problems UA will face: Pre-pandemic a large majority of UA focus was on business travelers. One of UA's biggest complaints from their business travelers was how difficult if not nearly impossible it was for them to reach Florida and the Southeast if they were going on vacation or to their summer/winter home, or 2nd home. For the most part UA could ignore those complaints because we had a robust domestic business schedule and an unbeatable long haul international schedule. However United admits the lack of options forced customers to turn to Delta, Southwest and even American for their leisure travel to Florida and the Southeast something UA was willing to accept pre-pandemic as the cost of doing business. The conundrum United now admits we face is once we really enter the recovery phase in 2022 or 2023 (no one really know when business travel and long haul travel will come back) is this, how does United maintain the leisure schedule to Florida and the Southeast and still provide 16x daily nonstops Monday thru Friday on a route like ORD-LGA for example?
 
sldispatcher
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q3 2021

Mon Jul 26, 2021 2:50 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
sldispatcher wrote:
As far as the EXTREMELY tiresome argument about United not having a SE hub, I simply say ‘so what’? To get people to Florida from 7 states? Every other state has adequate connections via IAD, EWR, ORD, and DEN.


It's a basic economics-of-geography argument that you don't seem to accept: location matters. Why do you think SFO is UA's primary TPAC hub instead of Denver?

Look at the Florida destination counts (and frequencies, and seats) of DL at ATL and AA at CLT -- they perform aggregation functions to the Southeast that UA just can't get out of IAH/ORD/IAD/EWR. Aggregation is the key to higher destination counts (which becomes self-reinforcing); it's also key to upgauging for lower CASM, as explicitly acknowledged in United Next.

I won't argue that building a SE hub is UA's best use of resources. (Similarly, I won't argue DL should build a TX hub to try to compete with DFW/DAL/IAH/HOU.) But I accept that UA will not be on equal footing with AA/DL without one -- and there isn't a good location available for a 3rd domestic SE hub (MIA is a LatAm/Caribbean hub and too far south; MCO is too fractured by other carriers to build mass; BNA has too little O&D and WN already).


Equal footing for what? Scrapping with Allegiant, Breeze, Frontier and Spirit?

No thank you.

As far as your presumption that I don’t understand geography, just what specific markets can you list that UAL is not able to serve effectively into Florida from their existing route network with the exception of a few SE states?
Impossible on UA to get from BTV to TPA?

SE hub, at this point, is overrated in my book unless the only thing that matters is total pasengers carried which seems to be your most important metric.
 
sldispatcher
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q3 2021

Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:00 am

jayunited wrote:
sldispatcher wrote:
I feel like the route planners are very disciplined in terms of metrics. Gauge is probably more effective than trying to do xxx-mco/fll/tpa/mia etc nonstop.

I personally think they ought to stick with their game plan of higher yielding customers/experience.

I had to fly Delta yesterday and it was disastrous from check in to boarding to misconnect etc. i was surrounded by Florida bound passengers on the first leg and it was not the most pleasant experience personally.

The majority of Florida bound passengers have different priorities than I do in terms of travel experience. Not saying one is superior to the other.

As far as the EXTREMELY tiresome argument about United not having a SE hub, I simply say ‘so what’? To get people to Florida from 7 states? Every other state has adequate connections via IAD, EWR, ORD, and DEN.



First let me say I'm not advocating for any type of South East hub.

Now that I've gotten that out I feel as though United must be seeing some type of positive financial return on their initial investment to beef up Florida else they would not be saying United will keep what we already have in Florida and while looking for opportunities to expand in the market. After reading the article and seeing what Andrew had to say I just feel like it is to late for United to do more in Florida because since the beginning of the pandemic AA, DL, WN, B6, NK, F9 have all been more aggressive in growing their presence in Florida while United took baby steps.

Also I'm not sure Florida is as low yielding as your post make it seem especially since the great migration that took place as a result of the pandemic. Speaking of the migration that has taken place as a result of the pandemic and the rise of work from home possible hybrid work week (2-3 days in the office) could this also be one of the reason UA is now taking a hard look at Florida? My husband just heard from his boss today (the official announcement/email will be sent out tomorrow) they will continue work from home through the summer of 2022. It is just one company but I am wondering how many United frequency flyers with and without status now reside in Florida as a result of the migration that has taken place? Could that be fueling United's interest in maintaining what we already have and growing our presence in Florida which is still a major leisure market but could become a larger business market as a result of the pandemic's migration?


I don’t disagree with that premise.

I just wonder how many true Florida-xxx city pairs cannot be served with the existing network without plunging lots of dollars into a hub? The only two places I can see remotely working would be MCO or TPA just because you much much further North and you start draining flow from IAD.

United probably did lose some opportunity to get a larger impact, but that is also part of the Continental legacy.

I do hear y’all on this, but the change in inertia required to adjust the mindset of the route planning/revenue management departments must be enormous.

It is an interesting discussion for sure.
 
codc10
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q3 2021

Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:08 am

Even when United had larger MIA/MCO operations over the last 30 years, it was very much a niche player to Florida in general, and Continental's Florida footprint was almost entirely EWR-centric (a PE legacy), catering virtually exclusively to local traffic, plus minimal international connecting flow.

People generally don't want to connect on the way to Florida, especially from east of the Mississippi, where there are usually nonstop options. Outside of hubs, United was a complete nonfactor in domestic point-to-point, so it's not a surprise that it has to contend with a trailing position in all respects (existing schedule, customer base, infrastructure, etc.) when faced with a comparatively surging Florida market and a newfound desire to grow its presence.
 
sldispatcher
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q3 2021

Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:11 am

Midwestindy wrote:
sldispatcher wrote:
jayunited wrote:
Simple Flying did an article on United wanting to keep a larger leisure domestic footprint. (I know its Simple flying and how people on this site feel about them the feeling is mutual but sometimes they do put out an article or two that raises few questions).

In the article United is quotes saying they intend to not only keep leisure flying but United wants to increase leisure routes and frequency moving forward. One market in particular that was mentioned is Florida which is probably one if not the largest leisure market in the lower 48, California could rival Florida as well I'm not sure.

https://simpleflying.com/united-larger- ... rint/After reading the article the

We are now nearing the end of July 2021 we have been in this pandemic since March of 2020 other airlines have made some aggressive moves in Florida throughout this pandemic and while United has made some moves we have not been as aggressive as perhaps could have been (maybe should have been). After reading the article my questions are, it is too little too late for United in Florida, has the ship sailed and we've missed the boat? Just about every other major carrier whether they are legacy, LCC, ULCC, or niche have all made some major moves in the Florida market and the article touches on it and how United didn't perform as well financially in Q1 as our peers because we are still lagging in leisure markets but obviously United is seeing some good financial numbers out of Florida.

At this point in the pandemic I don't see how or where United can set up a mini-hub or even a focus station in Florida the airports on both the east and west coasts of Florida are already full with the competition. With so many establish players already in the market are there any airports with gates available where United could scale up its operation? Lastly why has it taken United this long to realize the importance of FLORIDA in an airlines domestic network?


I feel like the route planners are very disciplined in terms of metrics. Gauge is probably more effective than trying to do xxx-mco/fll/tpa/mia etc nonstop.

I personally think they ought to stick with their game plan of higher yielding customers/experience.

I had to fly Delta yesterday and it was disastrous from check in to boarding to misconnect etc. i was surrounded by Florida bound passengers on the first leg and it was not the most pleasant experience personally.

The majority of Florida bound passengers have different priorities than I do in terms of travel experience. Not saying one is superior to the other.


I think you are conflating two things here:

Just because ULCCs/LCCs fly to Florida doesn't mean high-yielding customers don't fly there....

You think AA is operating close to 30 widebodies a day domestically now from MIA in a play for low-yielding customers??

MIflyer12 wrote:
sldispatcher wrote:
As far as the EXTREMELY tiresome argument about United not having a SE hub, I simply say ‘so what’? To get people to Florida from 7 states? Every other state has adequate connections via IAD, EWR, ORD, and DEN.


Look at the Florida destination counts (and frequencies, and seats) of DL at ATL and AA at CLT -- they perform aggregation functions to the Southeast that UA just can't get out of IAH/ORD/IAD/EWR. Aggregation is the key to higher destination counts (which becomes self-reinforcing); it's also key to upgauging for lower CASM, as explicitly acknowledged in United Next.


Exactly, I pulled the top 35 markets from MCO (similar map for TPA/FLL/RSW/MIA/e.t.c) and it's abundantly clear UA's hub placement is very weak in serving the Florida market (obviously it serves benefits in other realms).

Ideally IAD would serve as the Northeast connector to Florida, but IAD has so few banks that it is difficult to provide the right timings for a large portion of trips. And, UA has said they want EWR to focus on O&D, not that it is a good connector to Florida regardless.


Image

Ignoring the whole SE hub piece, UA's service to Florida is terrible. You can't even fly United from California to all of South Florida since they keep pushing back the restart of SFO-FLL/MIA.

I think the solution remains to focus on p2p flights during peak season, not build a new hub. In the Q1 2021 fare performance for some of the p2p routes they operated to Florida, they vastly outperformed the competition on some of those routes, not a chance that happens without nonstop options available with the connection selection they have in some of these markets.


I have no issue if UAL can make P2P flying work for them in any market. It’s not my decision where they fly. I just don’t see how this demand continues.

So I’ll ask a different question related to the flyers who complain about not being able to access markets in Florida easily.

How would you guys feel if United offered the route this year…you loved it…then they pull it the following year? Would you be more aggravated than if they never offered it?
 
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STT757
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q3 2021

Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:53 am

SELMER40 wrote:
jayunited wrote:
At this point in the pandemic I don't see how or where United can set up a mini-hub ...

Memphis could provide as many gates United would want. Has been a hub before.


The only concerns about Memphis is that it’s a
Small market with not a strong business or tourism ( national or international) draw. The only hub which is in a smaller MSA is SLC, but SLC is better geographically located for connections and it’s MSA is growing at 14% compared to Memphis 2%.
 
len90
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q3 2021

Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:41 am

Scarebus34 wrote:
codc10 wrote:
UA has access to gate space at TPA, MCO and RSW that can support more flying than they are doing at the moment. Certainly nothing on the scale of a hub, but additional flying within the existing footprint of gates, fleet and employees is probably what United is envisioning.

...


MCO will have a lot of open space for growth with the addition of the south terminal that is set to open soon.

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