Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 8
 
B717fan
Posts: 48
Joined: Wed Dec 25, 2019 1:32 am

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Fri Jul 02, 2021 4:14 pm

From KHON2:

"According to EMS, paramedics met with one of the pilots, a 50-year-old man, at the end of Lagoon Drive. The man was treated for a head injury and taken to a trauma emergency room in serious condition. EMS said he had multiple lacerations."
 
btfarrwm
Posts: 150
Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 5:50 am

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Fri Jul 02, 2021 4:20 pm

btfarrwm wrote:
Here's a link to the ATC audio recording. First contact at ~2m in the recording. Trouble starts at ~2m55s. No transmissions from the aircraft but ATC transmissions are there. Accident aircraft is Rhodes 810.

https://archive.liveatc.net/phnl/PHNL1- ... -1130Z.mp3


Takeaways from the ATC recording:

- Pilots reported engine failure shortly after takeoff.
- They declined a direct return to the airport after declaring their emergency
- The ATC controller seems to have done a good job managing the emergency and traffic (clearing traffic, calling out low altitude warning, offering them alternate airports, etc.)
Last edited by btfarrwm on Fri Jul 02, 2021 4:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8045
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Fri Jul 02, 2021 4:20 pm

If DEF is found to be the culprit, maybe the FAA will finally ban it’s use in airport vehicles and anywhere in the jet fuel supply chain. There’s been more than a few DEF-related engine failures in GA, the FAA has been turning a blind eye to.
 
travaz
Posts: 1123
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 1:03 am

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Fri Jul 02, 2021 4:23 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
If DEF is found to be the culprit, maybe the FAA will finally ban it’s use in airport vehicles and anywhere in the jet fuel supply chain. There’s been more than a few DEF-related engine failures in GA, the FAA has been turning a blind eye to.


I am not doubting you about DEF as a problem, just have never heard that it was. What is the problem with it? Curious. I understand if it was to get in the Jet Fuel that would be a problem.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8045
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Fri Jul 02, 2021 4:30 pm

Here’s a start,

https://www.nata.aero/assets/Site_18/fi ... _23_19.pdf

More details,

https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Die ... Fluid_(DEF)_as_a_Fuel_Contaminant

Two outcomes,

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... -citations

It’s a known problem, but hasn’t yet brought down a headline accident.

Here’s the very bureaucratic FAA answer,

https://www.nata.aero/assets/Site_18/fi ... -Final.pdf

Just say NO, ban it in airport vehicles.
 
btfarrwm
Posts: 150
Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 5:50 am

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Fri Jul 02, 2021 4:37 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Here’s a start,

https://www.nata.aero/assets/Site_18/fi ... _23_19.pdf

More details,

https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Die ... Fluid_(DEF)_as_a_Fuel_Contaminant

Two outcomes.

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... -citations

It’s a known problem, but hasn’t yet brought down a headline accident.



Both of those contamination events involved contamination with DEF in an anti-icing additive in the fuel and not the fuel itself. Do they even add anti-icing additives for short hop flights around Hawaii?
 
User avatar
ssteve
Posts: 1509
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 8:32 am

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Fri Jul 02, 2021 4:40 pm

Sounds like 58 y/o transported by USCG helicopter to hospital, in critical condition. 50 y/o brought to shore by boat, head injury and multiple lacerations.
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 12058
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Fri Jul 02, 2021 4:43 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Just say NO, ban it in airport vehicles.

Is there an alternative available? Not sure what trucks are being used and what engine options are available for them. Most (all?) modern diesel engines require these sorts of additives, and the FAA has no authority to force automakers to provide an alternative for airport vehicles or allow them to sell airport vehicle engines that break EPA regulations. To be honest I’m not even sure FAA has the authority to outright ban DEF required vehicles.

Seems to me that airports need to get better at separating fluids intended for vehicle maintenance and fluids intended for aircraft.
 
User avatar
TWA302
Posts: 1025
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 12:17 am

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Fri Jul 02, 2021 4:50 pm

Here is the audio with pilots and ATC
https://youtu.be/J3FVr1jly0A

Hoping that both pilots recover from their injuries. Pretty miraculous. Great job by the USCG and other responders.
Last edited by TWA302 on Fri Jul 02, 2021 4:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8045
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Fri Jul 02, 2021 4:51 pm

btfarrwm wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Here’s a start,

https://www.nata.aero/assets/Site_18/fi ... _23_19.pdf

More details,

https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Die ... Fluid_(DEF)_as_a_Fuel_Contaminant

Two outcomes.

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... -citations

It’s a known problem, but hasn’t yet brought down a headline accident.



Both of those contamination events involved contamination with DEF in an anti-icing additive in the fuel and not the fuel itself. Do they even add anti-icing additives for short hop flights around Hawaii?


The problem it is accidentally gets put into the PRIST tank instead of the DEF tank. Those are only cases, I believe there’s been others. Then, the issue is whether the fueler added on request or by accident. It’s gonna kill somebody by accident. The safety solution is to eliminate a known hazard, not put signs up in the hope they get heeded—eliminate the possibility.
 
btfarrwm
Posts: 150
Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 5:50 am

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Fri Jul 02, 2021 5:18 pm

[quote="TWA302"]Here is the audio with pilots and ATC
https://youtu.be/J3FVr1jly0A

Engine 1 went out shortly after takeoff. Engine two was "running hot" and subsequently failed or was shut down. No mentions of fire on the ATC recordings but the pilots did ask for equipment on the runway. That's an interesting failure scenario.
 
Murdoughnut
Posts: 117
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 11:27 pm

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Fri Jul 02, 2021 5:35 pm

btfarrwm wrote:
TWA302 wrote:
Here is the audio with pilots and ATC
https://youtu.be/J3FVr1jly0A

Engine 1 went out shortly after takeoff. Engine two was "running hot" and subsequently failed or was shut down. No mentions of fire on the ATC recordings but the pilots did ask for equipment on the runway. That's an interesting failure scenario.


Can't imagine a situation where the purposely shut down #2 after #1 fails. You only shut down to protect the engine, and salt water will do a hell of a lot more damage than overheating.
 
User avatar
InnsbruckFlyer
Posts: 345
Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2017 1:35 pm

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Fri Jul 02, 2021 5:35 pm

Any photos of the aircraft? Glad the crew's ok!!
Last flown aircraft: A320 OE-LBO < B78X N12003 < B738 N26210 < B752 N17126 < A359 D-AIXM < A20N D-AINH < A320 D-AIZF < CRJ9 D-ACNG < A20N D-AINJ < A319 OE-LDF < E195 OE-LWM < A320 D-AIUY < A320 OE-LXA < E195 OE-LWO
 
btfarrwm
Posts: 150
Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 5:50 am

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Fri Jul 02, 2021 5:37 pm

Murdoughnut wrote:
btfarrwm wrote:
TWA302 wrote:
Here is the audio with pilots and ATC
https://youtu.be/J3FVr1jly0A

Engine 1 went out shortly after takeoff. Engine two was "running hot" and subsequently failed or was shut down. No mentions of fire on the ATC recordings but the pilots did ask for equipment on the runway. That's an interesting failure scenario.


Can't imagine a situation where the purposely shut down #2 after #1 fails. You only shut down to protect the engine, and salt water will do a hell of a lot more damage than overheating.


Fire would about the only scenario I could imagine. Or some kind of vibration that was threatening controllability.
 
cat3appr50
Posts: 196
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:44 pm

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Fri Jul 02, 2021 5:45 pm

A nighttime emergency landing after a single engine failure (of course a possible uncontained engine failure of the first engine and subsequent damage to systems/flight controls) followed by the 2nd engine failure or its loss of thrust. Congratulations to the crew for an (nighttime/ocean) awesome landing and airmanship per this very difficult scenario. Looks like first engine failed around 2,000’.

Would be very, very unlikely that a fuel issue, as some have speculated regarding potential cause, (we’re talking PHNL here, a very large airport) had anything to do with this event. PHNL departures are ongoing.
 
nine4nine
Posts: 800
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:44 pm

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Fri Jul 02, 2021 5:56 pm

It’s been daylight in Hawaii for a few hours. How is there no footage of debris or possible plane still afloat? I’ve scoured the net and Hawaiian news outlets and nothing.
717, 727-100, 727-200, 732, 733, 734, 735, 73G, 738, 739, 742, 748, 752, 753, 762, 763, 772, 77W, 787-10, DC9, MD80/88/90, DC10, 319, 220-300, 320, 321, 321n, 332, 333, CS100, CRJ200, Q400, E175, E190, ERJ145, EMB120
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 1589
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Fri Jul 02, 2021 6:00 pm

Folks at HNL about to get an anal examination. These are not fun.

NTSB_Newsroom
@NTSB_Newsroom
·
2h
NTSB sending team of 7 investigators for investigation of Friday's crash of a Transair Boeing 737-200 cargo airplane in the waters off the island of Oahu near Honolulu.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 15258
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Fri Jul 02, 2021 6:07 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
btfarrwm wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Here’s a start,

https://www.nata.aero/assets/Site_18/fi ... _23_19.pdf

More details,

https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Die ... Fluid_(DEF)_as_a_Fuel_Contaminant

Two outcomes.

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... -citations

It’s a known problem, but hasn’t yet brought down a headline accident.



Both of those contamination events involved contamination with DEF in an anti-icing additive in the fuel and not the fuel itself. Do they even add anti-icing additives for short hop flights around Hawaii?


The problem it is accidentally gets put into the PRIST tank instead of the DEF tank. Those are only cases, I believe there’s been others. Then, the issue is whether the fueler added on request or by accident. It’s gonna kill somebody by accident. The safety solution is to eliminate a known hazard, not put signs up in the hope they get heeded—eliminate the possibility.


There are all sorts of fluids on the ramp that would bring down an airplane if mixed with fuel. DEF isn’t special.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
DLASFlyer
Posts: 351
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 4:06 pm

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Fri Jul 02, 2021 6:09 pm

nine4nine wrote:
It’s been daylight in Hawaii for a few hours. How is there no footage of debris or possible plane still afloat? I’ve scoured the net and Hawaiian news outlets and nothing.


Probably means it sank while still dark.
 
roadrunner165
Posts: 892
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2000 6:28 am

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Fri Jul 02, 2021 6:11 pm

Well if you have to ditch...doing so next to a coast guard base and a major military installation is pretty dang fortunate. I imagine the first helicopter would have been on scene within a matter of minutes.

I was very impressed listening to the professional ATC, I think the average joe would have shit their pants.
 
ajsljet45
Topic Author
Posts: 42
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 7:54 pm

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Fri Jul 02, 2021 6:18 pm

btfarrwm wrote:
Here's a link to the ATC audio recording. First contact at ~2m in the recording. Trouble starts at ~2m55s. No transmissions from the aircraft but ATC transmissions are there. Accident aircraft is Rhodes 810.

https://archive.liveatc.net/phnl/PHNL1- ... -1130Z.mp3



I’ve always been meaning to ask - why is it so damn important for ATC to insist on knowing fuel and souls onboard when pilots are dealing with life or death situations like this? Could this not be determined after the accident if it occurs? Is it so critical that ATC must distract the pilots from the task at hand to give that info at that moment?
 
DeltaRules
Posts: 5391
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2001 11:57 am

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Fri Jul 02, 2021 6:25 pm

roadrunner165 wrote:
Well if you have to ditch...doing so next to a coast guard base and a major military installation is pretty dang fortunate. I imagine the first helicopter would have been on scene within a matter of minutes.

I was very impressed listening to the professional ATC, I think the average joe would have shit their pants.


Other than the fact she kept stepping on him, she did well. I felt for her at the end when you could tell when the gravity of the plane ditching had really hit.
Last edited by DeltaRules on Fri Jul 02, 2021 6:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
A310/319/320/321/333, ARJ, BN2, B717/722/73S/733/734/735/73G/738/739/744/757/753/767/763/764/777, CR1/2/7/9, DH6, 328, EM2/ERJ/E70/E75/E90, F28/100, J31, L10/12/15, DC9/D93/D94/D95/M80/M88/M90/D10, SF3, SST
 
orlandocfi
Posts: 140
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:53 am

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Fri Jul 02, 2021 6:27 pm

ajsljet45 wrote:
btfarrwm wrote:
Here's a link to the ATC audio recording. First contact at ~2m in the recording. Trouble starts at ~2m55s. No transmissions from the aircraft but ATC transmissions are there. Accident aircraft is Rhodes 810.

https://archive.liveatc.net/phnl/PHNL1- ... -1130Z.mp3



I’ve always been meaning to ask - why is it so damn important for ATC to insist on knowing fuel and souls onboard when pilots are dealing with life or death situations like this? Could this not be determined after the accident if it occurs? Is it so critical that ATC must distract the pilots from the task at hand to give that info at that moment?


That is pretty critical situational awareness info that should be right at the fingertips of the pilots, but they are always able to tell ATC to standby for that info if they are task saturated with the emergency. It just helps ATC coordinate the appropriate rescue response in the event of a crash.
 
zuckie13
Posts: 405
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:23 pm

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Fri Jul 02, 2021 6:30 pm

ajsljet45 wrote:
btfarrwm wrote:
Here's a link to the ATC audio recording. First contact at ~2m in the recording. Trouble starts at ~2m55s. No transmissions from the aircraft but ATC transmissions are there. Accident aircraft is Rhodes 810.

https://archive.liveatc.net/phnl/PHNL1- ... -1130Z.mp3



I’ve always been meaning to ask - why is it so damn important for ATC to insist on knowing fuel and souls onboard when pilots are dealing with life or death situations like this? Could this not be determined after the accident if it occurs? Is it so critical that ATC must distract the pilots from the task at hand to give that info at that moment?


Souls is so they can relay to emergency services how many people they should expect to need to rescue if the plane does go down. In this example - would let them know if there was a jump seater.
Fuel is so they know the endurance. Maybe not super relevant in this case since they wanted a quick return - but could matter in some circumstances. There have been crashes where ATC did not understand the fuel situation clearly and routed an aircraft too far from the airport, so this make sure they know.
 
nine4nine
Posts: 800
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:44 pm

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Fri Jul 02, 2021 6:34 pm

DLASFlyer wrote:
nine4nine wrote:
It’s been daylight in Hawaii for a few hours. How is there no footage of debris or possible plane still afloat? I’ve scoured the net and Hawaiian news outlets and nothing.


Probably means it sank while still dark.



Was just curious. The Miracle on the Hudson USAirways 320 stayed buoyant for sometime and that was in fresh water. Was curious if the plane was still intact floating on the surface with more buoyant sea water or if the plane perhaps broke up upon impact leaving any floating debris.
717, 727-100, 727-200, 732, 733, 734, 735, 73G, 738, 739, 742, 748, 752, 753, 762, 763, 772, 77W, 787-10, DC9, MD80/88/90, DC10, 319, 220-300, 320, 321, 321n, 332, 333, CS100, CRJ200, Q400, E175, E190, ERJ145, EMB120
 
zuckie13
Posts: 405
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:23 pm

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Fri Jul 02, 2021 6:39 pm

nine4nine wrote:
DLASFlyer wrote:
nine4nine wrote:
It’s been daylight in Hawaii for a few hours. How is there no footage of debris or possible plane still afloat? I’ve scoured the net and Hawaiian news outlets and nothing.


Probably means it sank while still dark.



Was just curious. The Miracle on the Hudson USAirways 320 stayed buoyant for sometime and that was in fresh water. Was curious if the plane was still intact floating on the surface with more buoyant sea water or if the plane perhaps broke up upon impact leaving any floating debris.


Has more to do with how much water is entering the plane than the type of water. They way this happened, they may not have been able to/had time to run the ditching procedures. Also just depends on how many holes there are after it hits the water. Even the USAirways one, there was water entering at the rear of the plane if I remember, just at a slow enough pace that it didn't completely sink.
 
User avatar
JetBuddy
Posts: 2698
Joined: Wed Dec 25, 2013 1:04 am

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Fri Jul 02, 2021 6:41 pm

I'm glad the crew survived, and I hope they'll make a full recovery.

Very interesting situation. Losing both engines is rare. Could this have been a bird strike which they didn't see?

ATC seems to have been doing her job well. Maybe going straight for Kalaeloa / NAS Barbers Point would have been better, but the 2nd engine didn't go out until very late in the flight.
 
Blankbarcode
Posts: 130
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2016 1:10 am

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Fri Jul 02, 2021 6:45 pm

https://twitter.com/USCGHawaiiPac/statu ... 53472?s=19

Footage from the rescue, no aircraft in sight it seems. I'm incredibly happy the crew got out fast enough and that they were found in the water!
 
FX1816
Posts: 496
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 8:02 am

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Fri Jul 02, 2021 6:47 pm

zuckie13 wrote:
ajsljet45 wrote:
btfarrwm wrote:
Here's a link to the ATC audio recording. First contact at ~2m in the recording. Trouble starts at ~2m55s. No transmissions from the aircraft but ATC transmissions are there. Accident aircraft is Rhodes 810.

https://archive.liveatc.net/phnl/PHNL1- ... -1130Z.mp3



I’ve always been meaning to ask - why is it so damn important for ATC to insist on knowing fuel and souls onboard when pilots are dealing with life or death situations like this? Could this not be determined after the accident if it occurs? Is it so critical that ATC must distract the pilots from the task at hand to give that info at that moment?


Souls is so they can relay to emergency services how many people they should expect to need to rescue if the plane does go down. In this example - would let them know if there was a jump seater.
Fuel is so they know the endurance. Maybe not super relevant in this case since they wanted a quick return - but could matter in some circumstances. There have been crashes where ATC did not understand the fuel situation clearly and routed an aircraft too far from the airport, so this make sure they know.



It is standard in ATC to ask for SOB's, FUEL and Nature of Emergency/Intentions. As you stated, SOB's is so that fire rescue knows how many people they will have to deal with/look for. Fuel is also for fire rescue, it has nothing to do with endurance. Fire Rescue wants to know how much fuel is on board so that they have an idea of, if there is a fire, how long it might burn and thus what kind and how much equipment to take out.
 
zuckie13
Posts: 405
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:23 pm

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Fri Jul 02, 2021 6:48 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
I'm glad the crew survived, and I hope they'll make a full recovery.

Very interesting situation. Losing both engines is rare. Could this have been a bird strike which they didn't see?

ATC seems to have been doing her job well. Maybe going straight for Kalaeloa / NAS Barbers Point would have been better, but the 2nd engine didn't go out until very late in the flight.


Initially she was ready to bring them right back in, they asked for more time to run their checklists, so presumably at first they were stable on the one engine. Things took a turn for the worse as they started heading for HNL, and she gave them the option that was closer at that point, but sounds like they just lost all the thrust at that point.
 
9252fly
Posts: 1202
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2005 7:19 am

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Fri Jul 02, 2021 6:50 pm

nine4nine wrote:
DLASFlyer wrote:
nine4nine wrote:
It’s been daylight in Hawaii for a few hours. How is there no footage of debris or possible plane still afloat? I’ve scoured the net and Hawaiian news outlets and nothing.


Probably means it sank while still dark.



Was just curious. The Miracle on the Hudson USAirways 320 stayed buoyant for sometime and that was in fresh water. Was curious if the plane was still intact floating on the surface with more buoyant sea water or if the plane perhaps broke up upon impact leaving any floating debris.


The Hudson river is comparatively calm and serene compared to landing in choppy ocean swells in the dark. The aircraft likely sustained significant structural damage from literately smashing into a wall of water ( swell ).
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8045
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Fri Jul 02, 2021 6:54 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
btfarrwm wrote:


Both of those contamination events involved contamination with DEF in an anti-icing additive in the fuel and not the fuel itself. Do they even add anti-icing additives for short hop flights around Hawaii?


The problem it is accidentally gets put into the PRIST tank instead of the DEF tank. Those are only cases, I believe there’s been others. Then, the issue is whether the fueler added on request or by accident. It’s gonna kill somebody by accident. The safety solution is to eliminate a known hazard, not put signs up in the hope they get heeded—eliminate the possibility.


There are all sorts of fluids on the ramp that would bring down an airplane if mixed with fuel. DEF isn’t special.


True, but only two in truck refueling vehicles-Prist and DEF, both clear fluids that can’t be tested for their presence. Second, there are vanishingly few post-take-off dual engine failures. If it’s not fuel contamination, there aren’t many other explanations for both engines failing.

EDIT: Now I think about, there’s not a lot fluids that would bring down a plane AND are likely to be mixed with jet fuel. De-icing fluids? Not on PHNL. Prist? It burns in the engines. Engine or Hydraulic oils? Why would anyone pour either in sufficient quantities to damage both engines into a fuel truck? Water in the fuel? The plane flew 60+ cycles in the past week, not likely to be water or algae growth in the tanks.
Last edited by GalaxyFlyer on Fri Jul 02, 2021 7:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
IFlyVeryLittle
Posts: 199
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:31 pm

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Fri Jul 02, 2021 7:01 pm

That kind of thing is not really the job of a journalist. Probably a $15 an hour web producer who isn't old enough to understand that Boeing 737Max isn't the name of ALL twin-engine Boeing short- to medium range jets.
FlyingJhawk wrote:
2eng2efficient wrote:
ATCJesus wrote:

Of course CNBC was trying to imply it was possibly a MAX and connecting it to Boeing share price….


That segment was breaking news, before the aircraft type was known. At no time did the anchor mention the 737MAX, and he was totally clear that they did not know the details.

Furthermore, CNBC’s headline story about it (published and updated after the linked clip) clearly and explicitly says, repeatedly, that this was NOT a 737 MAX.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/02/boeing- ... -says.html

CNBC is a financial media outlet and anything impacting Boeing is going to be covered. BA’s share price did go down on this because algorithms are probably designed to sell instantly anytime the terms “737” and “accident” are mentioned anywhere in the press.


Maybe not the CNBC anchor but the CNBC alert I received on my phone specifically said it was a 737 MAX - the same plane that was grounded for 20 months.
 
btfarrwm
Posts: 150
Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 5:50 am

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Fri Jul 02, 2021 7:16 pm

Blankbarcode wrote:
https://twitter.com/USCGHawaiiPac/status/1411027936824553472?s=19

Footage from the rescue, no aircraft in sight it seems. I'm incredibly happy the crew got out fast enough and that they were found in the water!



Pretty rough water and dark. No visible wreckage. The pilots must have had vests with locator lights or EPIRB transmitters because I can’t imagine they would have been visible otherwise.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8045
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Fri Jul 02, 2021 7:26 pm

The plane flew 244 flights in June.
 
Vicenza
Posts: 371
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:21 pm

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Fri Jul 02, 2021 7:27 pm

ATCJesus wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
CNBC says crew members have been rescued, waiting to hear more but that is great news.
https://twitter.com/cnbcnow/status/1410 ... 69441?s=21


Of course CNBC was trying to imply it was possibly a MAX and connecting it to Boeing share price….


Where was any mention, or implication, made that it was a Max? Seems you me you simply want a soundbite.
 
nm2582
Posts: 195
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2007 2:15 pm

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Fri Jul 02, 2021 7:43 pm

I wasn't aware that DEF contamination was an issue that has affected so many aircraft.

It seems like it should be an easily resolvable issue. There are many other fluids on an airport (skydrol, blue juice, gasoline, motor oil, hydraulic fluid, water, diesel, jet fuel, ....) and there is apparently not a problem of people putting blue juice in the tanks.

It seems like some simple procedural changes could prevent this. DEF is only needed infrequently, and should not even be accessible by the folks who are responsible for adding FSII. Let the ground vehicle mechanics refill the DEF, and make sure the DEF reservoir is distinct and separate from the FSII reservoir.
 
User avatar
usxguy
Posts: 1953
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 1:28 pm

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Fri Jul 02, 2021 7:49 pm

The infra-red video from the Coast Guard on KGMB shows fairly active waves, it definitely wasn't smooth. You can see two rescue boats being bounced around.

And no large debris visible in the video, so I doubt we'll see any pics in daylight.
xx
 
Ceamajay
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:21 am

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Fri Jul 02, 2021 7:56 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
If it’s not fuel contamination, there aren’t many other explanations for both engines failing.


I agree that an EPA exemption for DEF in airside airport vehicles makes a great deal of sense, at the very least until better safeguards and practices can be developed to avoid cross-contamination. Every dock hand at every marina knows not to put water into a fuel tank or fuel into a water tank, but as long as boats have two holes about the same size, every once in a while some poor schmuck in a hurry is going to put the wrong hose in the wrong hole. And they're usually not doing it in Chicago during a blizzard.

That being said, in this particular incident, my money is on our feathered friends. God willing, the pilots will have a full recovery and can tell the NTSB which one of us was right.
 
micstatic
Posts: 842
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2001 10:07 pm

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Fri Jul 02, 2021 8:00 pm

is it possible they experienced problems with the engine, then shut down the wrong one like we've seen in the past. Hence had two non working engines?
 
MrBretz
Posts: 603
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 9:13 pm

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Fri Jul 02, 2021 8:01 pm

This event showed great competence by the pilots, ATC, and the rescue operation. The audio brought tears to my eyes. The pilot sounded like a “local”. I hope they make a complete recovery.
 
User avatar
JakubH
Posts: 168
Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2017 10:15 pm

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Fri Jul 02, 2021 8:07 pm

WorldFlier wrote:
Blankbarcode wrote:
Seems pretty close to the coast, any idea of the water depth around there? I'm so happy they're alright.


Hawaiian waters can get real deep real fast.


Google Earth suggests between 400-900 feet of depth. That's no joke.
Humility is not thinking less of yourself, it's thinking of yourself less.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8045
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Fri Jul 02, 2021 8:07 pm

nm2582 wrote:
I wasn't aware that DEF contamination was an issue that has affected so many aircraft.

It seems like it should be an easily resolvable issue. There are many other fluids on an airport (skydrol, blue juice, gasoline, motor oil, hydraulic fluid, water, diesel, jet fuel, ....) and there is apparently not a problem of people putting blue juice in the tanks.

It seems like some simple procedural changes could prevent this. DEF is only needed infrequently, and should not even be accessible by the folks who are responsible for adding FSII. Let the ground vehicle mechanics refill the DEF, and make sure the DEF reservoir is distinct and separate from the FSII reservoir.


There is NO reason to put any of those fluids in any fuel truck, let alone gasoline, diesel, oil which will burn fine, Prist is regularly refilled and DEF only sometimes into the trucks. No fuel truck is going near a blue juice nozzle or water line.
Last edited by GalaxyFlyer on Fri Jul 02, 2021 8:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8045
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Fri Jul 02, 2021 8:09 pm

Ceamajay wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
If it’s not fuel contamination, there aren’t many other explanations for both engines failing.


I agree that an EPA exemption for DEF in airside airport vehicles makes a great deal of sense, at the very least until better safeguards and practices can be developed to avoid cross-contamination. Every dock hand at every marina knows not to put water into a fuel tank or fuel into a water tank, but as long as boats have two holes about the same size, every once in a while some poor schmuck in a hurry is going to put the wrong hose in the wrong hole. And they're usually not doing it in Chicago during a blizzard.

That being said, in this particular incident, my money is on our feathered friends. God willing, the pilots will have a full recovery and can tell the NTSB which one of us was right.


Not a lot of large birds in Hawaii, no geese, either.
 
User avatar
Spacepope
Posts: 5389
Joined: Tue Dec 28, 1999 11:10 am

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Fri Jul 02, 2021 8:13 pm

Ceamajay wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
If it’s not fuel contamination, there aren’t many other explanations for both engines failing.


I agree that an EPA exemption for DEF in airside airport vehicles makes a great deal of sense, at the very least until better safeguards and practices can be developed to avoid cross-contamination. Every dock hand at every marina knows not to put water into a fuel tank or fuel into a water tank, but as long as boats have two holes about the same size, every once in a while some poor schmuck in a hurry is going to put the wrong hose in the wrong hole. And they're usually not doing it in Chicago during a blizzard.

That being said, in this particular incident, my money is on our feathered friends. God willing, the pilots will have a full recovery and can tell the NTSB which one of us was right.


I'm not overly against an exemption however anyone dumb enough to put DEF into a fuel tank headed for an aircraft upload has no business being anywhere near an airport, even as self loading freight. One would figure a job would take up too much of their paste eating time.
The last of the famous international playboys
 
Whiteguy
Posts: 1670
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2003 6:11 am

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Fri Jul 02, 2021 8:15 pm

micstatic wrote:
is it possible they experienced problems with the engine, then shut down the wrong one like we've seen in the past. Hence had two non working engines?


Listening to the ATC audio they mention the #1 out and losing the other engine due to overheating….
 
889091
Posts: 362
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:56 pm

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Fri Jul 02, 2021 8:16 pm

This being a Jurassic, what sort of FDR/CVR would it have been carrying? Would the FAA have mandated the operator to upgrade them to the current standard? Also, would they have locator beacons?
 
travaz
Posts: 1123
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 1:03 am

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Fri Jul 02, 2021 8:21 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Here’s a start,

https://www.nata.aero/assets/Site_18/fi ... _23_19.pdf

More details,

https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Die ... Fluid_(DEF)_as_a_Fuel_Contaminant

Two outcomes,

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... -citations

It’s a known problem, but hasn’t yet brought down a headline accident.

Here’s the very bureaucratic FAA answer,

https://www.nata.aero/assets/Site_18/fi ... -Final.pdf

Just say NO, ban it in airport vehicles.

Thanks for the information. I read all of those articles and learned something I never knew. Very interesting and a potential catastrophic outcome.
 
User avatar
Spacepope
Posts: 5389
Joined: Tue Dec 28, 1999 11:10 am

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Fri Jul 02, 2021 8:27 pm

Whiteguy wrote:
micstatic wrote:
is it possible they experienced problems with the engine, then shut down the wrong one like we've seen in the past. Hence had two non working engines?


Listening to the ATC audio they mention the #1 out and losing the other engine due to overheating….


The only 2 SDRs since 2017 for this bird BOTH have engine #1 failures.
The last of the famous international playboys
 
User avatar
ssteve
Posts: 1509
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 8:32 am

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Fri Jul 02, 2021 8:28 pm

https://www.staradvertiser.com/2021/07/ ... s-rescued/

USCG called 0140, video of rescue is from 0251-0257. The 2 boats are USCG and HI DoT. So, the plane had an hour to sink before the video. DoT boat apparently reported debris.
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 8

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos