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groundbird
Posts: 36
Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2014 12:15 pm

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Fri Jul 02, 2021 8:35 pm

 
T prop
Posts: 980
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2001 4:33 pm

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Fri Jul 02, 2021 8:48 pm

Only birds that fly around at night in Hawaii are owls. An owl is not bringing a 737 down.
 
bennett123
Posts: 10886
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Fri Jul 02, 2021 8:52 pm

Must say the media people are pretty good, no really dumb questions.

So there is no sign of smoke or fire.

If the pilot was on debris or in a cargo net then presumably the fuselage must have been broken. By the sound of things it was broken behind the wing.
Last edited by bennett123 on Fri Jul 02, 2021 9:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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LIJet
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Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Fri Jul 02, 2021 8:53 pm

groundbird wrote:


Wow. The aircraft broke up and they find one pilot holding onto a cargo container and other standing on the tail. The tail submerges and the pilot winds up in the water. USCG rescues them both. Pilots report no lights, no emergency beacon going. All they saw was a fuel slick and debris; in open seas. Sounds like a miracle that the pilots were rescued. Great job by the USCG and ATC in locating this airplane and getting there quick enough to save them.
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Fri Jul 02, 2021 9:14 pm

LIJet wrote:
groundbird wrote:


Wow. The aircraft broke up and they find one pilot holding onto a cargo container and other standing on the tail. The tail submerges and the pilot winds up in the water. USCG rescues them both. Pilots report no lights, no emergency beacon going. All they saw was a fuel slick and debris; in open seas. Sounds like a miracle that the pilots were rescued. Great job by the USCG and ATC in locating this airplane and getting there quick enough to save them.


Absolutely. Those two USCG pilots gave a very good impression. The first real rescue for one of them, he seemed thrilled about it. Which he should be, this is exactly what they're training for. Heroes!
 
travaz
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Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 1:03 am

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Fri Jul 02, 2021 9:27 pm

USCG are the unsung hero's of all of the Services. Directly serving and saving member of the public in crisis. Well done and a 4th of July salute to all of them.
 
MrBretz
Posts: 604
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 9:13 pm

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Fri Jul 02, 2021 9:30 pm

Great interview USCG personnel! You saved these guys. It sounds like the pilots might be in worse shape that originally thought.
 
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TWA302
Posts: 1071
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 12:17 am

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Fri Jul 02, 2021 9:32 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Ceamajay wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
If it’s not fuel contamination, there aren’t many other explanations for both engines failing.


I agree that an EPA exemption for DEF in airside airport vehicles makes a great deal of sense, at the very least until better safeguards and practices can be developed to avoid cross-contamination. Every dock hand at every marina knows not to put water into a fuel tank or fuel into a water tank, but as long as boats have two holes about the same size, every once in a while some poor schmuck in a hurry is going to put the wrong hose in the wrong hole. And they're usually not doing it in Chicago during a blizzard.

That being said, in this particular incident, my money is on our feathered friends. God willing, the pilots will have a full recovery and can tell the NTSB which one of us was right.


Not a lot of large birds in Hawaii, no geese, either.


Yes there are. Gulls are plentiful and the nene is a species of goose in Hawaii. Albatross are also there. Not saying it was the cause, just providing some alternative facts.
 
Gasman
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Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 10:06 am

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Fri Jul 02, 2021 9:33 pm

Nightmare scenario.

Fuel contamination, or incorrect engine shut down would have to be high on the list of possibilities.
 
sphealey
Posts: 328
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 12:39 am

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Fri Jul 02, 2021 9:36 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
LIJet wrote:
groundbird wrote:


Wow. The aircraft broke up and they find one pilot holding onto a cargo container and other standing on the tail. The tail submerges and the pilot winds up in the water. USCG rescues them both. Pilots report no lights, no emergency beacon going. All they saw was a fuel slick and debris; in open seas. Sounds like a miracle that the pilots were rescued. Great job by the USCG and ATC in locating this airplane and getting there quick enough to save them.


Absolutely. Those two USCG pilots gave a very good impression. The first real rescue for one of them, he seemed thrilled about it. Which he should be, this is exactly what they're training for. Heroes!

USCG report was that one pilot was rescued by a Honolulu Fire Department boat and one by the helicopter:

https://content.govdelivery.com/account ... ns/2e69d6a
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 9003
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Fri Jul 02, 2021 9:46 pm

Incredible water ditching and rescue..........this is the type of stuff that training on all sides pays off for......pilots, ATC, coast guard, first responders.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8593
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Fri Jul 02, 2021 9:54 pm

TWA302 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Ceamajay wrote:

I agree that an EPA exemption for DEF in airside airport vehicles makes a great deal of sense, at the very least until better safeguards and practices can be developed to avoid cross-contamination. Every dock hand at every marina knows not to put water into a fuel tank or fuel into a water tank, but as long as boats have two holes about the same size, every once in a while some poor schmuck in a hurry is going to put the wrong hose in the wrong hole. And they're usually not doing it in Chicago during a blizzard.

That being said, in this particular incident, my money is on our feathered friends. God willing, the pilots will have a full recovery and can tell the NTSB which one of us was right.


Not a lot of large birds in Hawaii, no geese, either.


Yes there are. Gulls are plentiful and the nene is a species of goose in Hawaii. Albatross are also there. Not saying it was the cause, just providing some alternative facts.


All you want to know about PHNL wildlife/aircraft strikes.

http://wildlifecenter.pr.erau.edu/strik ... /PHNL.html
 
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WesternDC6B
Posts: 847
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:05 pm

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Fri Jul 02, 2021 10:03 pm

ATCJesus wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
CNBC says crew members have been rescued, waiting to hear more but that is great news.
https://twitter.com/cnbcnow/status/1410 ... 69441?s=21


Of course CNBC was trying to imply it was possibly a MAX and connecting it to Boeing share price….


I was very pleased to see several news articles specifically pointed out that it was NOT a MAX involved. I never expected that.
 
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TWA302
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Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Fri Jul 02, 2021 10:04 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
TWA302 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Not a lot of large birds in Hawaii, no geese, either.


Yes there are. Gulls are plentiful and the nene is a species of goose in Hawaii. Albatross are also there. Not saying it was the cause, just providing some alternative facts.


All you want to know about PHNL wildlife/aircraft strikes.

http://wildlifecenter.pr.erau.edu/strike_index/PHNL.

I understand. Saying there are not geese or many large birds is inaccurate.
 
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LIJet
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Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Fri Jul 02, 2021 10:15 pm

sphealey wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
LIJet wrote:

Wow. The aircraft broke up and they find one pilot holding onto a cargo container and other standing on the tail. The tail submerges and the pilot winds up in the water. USCG rescues them both. Pilots report no lights, no emergency beacon going. All they saw was a fuel slick and debris; in open seas. Sounds like a miracle that the pilots were rescued. Great job by the USCG and ATC in locating this airplane and getting there quick enough to save them.


Absolutely. Those two USCG pilots gave a very good impression. The first real rescue for one of them, he seemed thrilled about it. Which he should be, this is exactly what they're training for. Heroes!

USCG report was that one pilot was rescued by a Honolulu Fire Department boat and one by the helicopter:

https://content.govdelivery.com/account ... ns/2e69d6a
I read that one was taken by boat and the other by air. USCG probably made the save and transferred the survivor to the FD boat while they rushed the survivor in shock to the hospital by air.

Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk
 
F9Animal
Posts: 4637
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:13 am

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Fri Jul 02, 2021 10:28 pm

micstatic wrote:
is it possible they experienced problems with the engine, then shut down the wrong one like we've seen in the past. Hence had two non working engines?


I don't think that's the case here. He said the other engine was now running hot.
 
travaz
Posts: 1139
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 1:03 am

Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Fri Jul 02, 2021 11:17 pm

According to the USCG report the seas were 5 ft swells with a 17 MPH wind. The Hudson was calm.
 
hivue
Posts: 2154
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:26 am

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Fri Jul 02, 2021 11:25 pm

LIJet wrote:
sphealey wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:

Absolutely. Those two USCG pilots gave a very good impression. The first real rescue for one of them, he seemed thrilled about it. Which he should be, this is exactly what they're training for. Heroes!

USCG report was that one pilot was rescued by a Honolulu Fire Department boat and one by the helicopter:

https://content.govdelivery.com/account ... ns/2e69d6a
I read that one was taken by boat and the other by air. USCG probably made the save and transferred the survivor to the FD boat while they rushed the survivor in shock to the hospital by air.

Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk


In the Honolulu TV news interview with the CG Dolphin pilots they said they rescued both victims and transferred them from the crash site directly to the roof-top helicopter pad of the hospital.

The CG swimmer deserves a shout-out as much as the pilots.
 
Fuling
Posts: 410
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 4:41 am

Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Sat Jul 03, 2021 12:06 am

Let's see if this is made into a movie...
 
btfarrwm
Posts: 156
Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 5:50 am

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Sat Jul 03, 2021 12:58 am

hivue wrote:
LIJet wrote:
sphealey wrote:
USCG report was that one pilot was rescued by a Honolulu Fire Department boat and one by the helicopter:

https://content.govdelivery.com/account ... ns/2e69d6a
I read that one was taken by boat and the other by air. USCG probably made the save and transferred the survivor to the FD boat while they rushed the survivor in shock to the hospital by air.

Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk


In the Honolulu TV news interview with the CG Dolphin pilots they said they rescued both victims and transferred them from the crash site directly to the roof-top helicopter pad of the hospital.

The CG swimmer deserves a shout-out as much as the pilots.


The helicopter pilots and rescue swimmer gave different accounts. The rescue swimmer (who did the retrievals) stated they recovered the more severely-injured pilot (who was rescued after the tail plane sank) to the helicopter first. The swimmer was then re-deployed to help the other pilot who was floating with some wreckage in a cargo net. He was in better physical shape and was transferred to one of the rescue boats and the helicopter then took the more severely-injured pilot directly to the hospital.
 
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LIJet
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Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 2:16 pm

Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Sat Jul 03, 2021 1:02 am

This is what I recall hearing/reading as well. Regardless of the details, kudos needs to go out to everyone involved!

Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk
 
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aloha73g
Posts: 1952
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2003 6:30 pm

Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Sat Jul 03, 2021 1:38 am

Hawaii News Now broadcast video of the 2nd pilot being loaded off of a Fire Department boat and into an ambulance at Honolulu Airport's Fire Station #2 located just off Lagoon Drive adjacent to the reef runway (8R/26L). In satellite images, you an see their dock/boathouse extending into Ke'ehi Lagoon. In the video I saw on HNN Sunrise this morning you could a bloody bandage or towel wrapped around his head as they wheeled him (sitting up on the stretcher) to the ambulance.

-Aloha!
 
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zeke
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Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Sat Jul 03, 2021 1:56 am

I have read several reports it took the coast guard helicopter took about an hour to get to the pilots, very strange considering how close they were.

“ U.S. Coast Guard Lt. Commander Karin Evelyn said in an email that they received a report around 1:40 a.m. of a downed inter-island transport plane. About an hour later, rescuers in a Coast Guard helicopter spotted the debris field and two people in the water, Evelyn said.”

From https://www.cbsnews.com/news/transair-f ... s-rescued/

News reports also indicate the older pilot who was airlifted to Queens hospital is in intensive care.

“ The rescue swimmer was able to get to the pilot in the water, and he was airlifted to the Queen’s Medical Center. The 58-year-old was reportedly in the intensive care unit in critical condition.”

From https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2021/07/0 ... h-2-board/
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Sat Jul 03, 2021 2:43 am

VASAviation has made a good video with the ATC audio and transcripts, as well as a map to follow the flight. Very useful to understand the sequence of events.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3fpQcRSnFE
 
7673mech
Posts: 561
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2004 10:10 am

Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Sat Jul 03, 2021 3:24 am

zeke wrote:
I have read several reports it took the coast guard helicopter took about an hour to get to the pilots, very strange considering how close they were.

“ U.S. Coast Guard Lt. Commander Karin Evelyn said in an email that they received a report around 1:40 a.m. of a downed inter-island transport plane. About an hour later, rescuers in a Coast Guard helicopter spotted the debris field and two people in the water, Evelyn said.”

From https://www.cbsnews.com/news/transair-f ... s-rescued/

News reports also indicate the older pilot who was airlifted to Queens hospital is in intensive care.

“ The rescue swimmer was able to get to the pilot in the water, and he was airlifted to the Queen’s Medical Center. The 58-year-old was reportedly in the intensive care unit in critical condition.”

From https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2021/07/0 ... h-2-board/


Zeke, I was thinking the same.
Curious if they spent the hour looking as they only found debris and a fuel slick.
At any rate amazing they got rescued and transported.
 
F9Animal
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Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Sat Jul 03, 2021 5:44 am

JetBuddy wrote:
VASAviation has made a good video with the ATC audio and transcripts, as well as a map to follow the flight. Very useful to understand the sequence of events.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3fpQcRSnFE


That was agonizing to listen to. I'm gonna guess the FO was running the radio? Lots of mumbling, and difficult to understand. Then came the walking over eachother. The tower missed the first warning that they might lose the other engine. Time is of the essence. I assume the Captain took on the radio near the end, and he was straight to the point in an authortive type of way. I think the controller knew then things were pretty dire. If the Captain had the radio from the start, I do believe they would have been able to get to a runway.

I do think they could have made the airport to the north if they had been more direct, less mumbling, and telling the tower how dire the situation was. I am armchair CEOing, so don't mind me. I know during my flight training, I was told how important it was in an emergency to be direct, clear, and tell them what I needed right away. I have noticed alot of pilots tend to put their mic up to their lips, and it can be challenging to understand them.

Thankful they made it out!
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Sat Jul 03, 2021 6:00 am

btfarrwm wrote:
Both of those contamination events involved contamination with DEF in an anti-icing additive in the fuel and not the fuel itself. Do they even add anti-icing additives for short hop flights around Hawaii?


Speaking of a short hop flight, I haven't read yet what the destination of Transair Flight 810 was.
 
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SuperGee
Posts: 132
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Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Sat Jul 03, 2021 7:01 am

btfarrwm wrote:
TWA302 wrote:
Here is the audio with pilots and ATC
https://youtu.be/J3FVr1jly0A

Engine 1 went out shortly after takeoff. Engine two was "running hot" and subsequently failed or was shut down. No mentions of fire on the ATC recordings but the pilots did ask for equipment on the runway. That's an interesting failure scenario.


What are the odds of the engine two going out so quickly after the first one quit unless it's fuel contamination, as mentioned earlier in the thread. Also, would fuel contamination cause engine two to start running hot though? Wouldn't it just cause the engine to shut down from fuel starvation?

And....what were they doing asking for delay in returning to the airport? They were actually flying away from it for a while after declaring the emergency. Doesn't sound as if they had that much fuel to dump. The scenario did remind me of Swissair 111 though but on a smaller scale.It seems to me that in both Swissair and this Transair, those crews needed to get their planes on the deck as soon as possible, checklists be damned.

Finally, was the Transair 732 ETOPS certified? I guess it wouldn't have made a difference in this flight since the events took place immediately after takeoff and right close by the field. Also,. their flights seem to be fairly short hops. I'm just curious though.
 
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hawaiian717
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Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Sat Jul 03, 2021 7:07 am

DIRECTFLT wrote:
Speaking of a short hop flight, I haven't read yet what the destination of Transair Flight 810 was.


Kahului, Maui OGG/PHOG
 
777Mech
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Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:54 pm

Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Sat Jul 03, 2021 7:52 am

F9Animal wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
VASAviation has made a good video with the ATC audio and transcripts, as well as a map to follow the flight. Very useful to understand the sequence of events.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3fpQcRSnFE


That was agonizing to listen to. I'm gonna guess the FO was running the radio? Lots of mumbling, and difficult to understand. Then came the walking over eachother. The tower missed the first warning that they might lose the other engine. Time is of the essence. I assume the Captain took on the radio near the end, and he was straight to the point in an authortive type of way. I think the controller knew then things were pretty dire. If the Captain had the radio from the start, I do believe they would have been able to get to a runway.

I do think they could have made the airport to the north if they had been more direct, less mumbling, and telling the tower how dire the situation was. I am armchair CEOing, so don't mind me. I know during my flight training, I was told how important it was in an emergency to be direct, clear, and tell them what I needed right away. I have noticed alot of pilots tend to put their mic up to their lips, and it can be challenging to understand them.

Thankful they made it out!


I don't think whoever was manning the radios would have mattered. IMO they needed to be turning back toward a downwind leg and running the checklists simultaneously instead of flying away from the airport and doing so. ATC will clear you wherever you need to go if you request.
 
cedarjet
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Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 1:12 am

Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Sat Jul 03, 2021 8:19 am

Agreed the pilot who did the majority of the radio calls was ineffective. Air traffic controller missed the first two requests to return completely. He wasn’t the only culprit of poor RT. Almost every single transmission is stepped on by someone else making a call, which is crazy. Not sure what’s up with that
 
KingOrGod
Posts: 194
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2017 3:19 pm

Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Sat Jul 03, 2021 8:37 am

cedarjet wrote:
Agreed the pilot who did the majority of the radio calls was ineffective. Air traffic controller missed the first two requests to return completely. He wasn’t the only culprit of poor RT. Almost every single transmission is stepped on by someone else making a call, which is crazy. Not sure what’s up with that


This.

The first call that they had a problem was really poorly transmitted. Mumbled and unclear.
She evidently didn't understand that, and cleared him to join V2 etc. And then he transmits over her, which means she cannot hear his emergency call.

Then what annoyed me, is RDS809 who would likely have heard this double transmission, says nothing ! - instead of "blocked" or "double transmission" to alert them to the double transmission.

Then, after the "radio check of RDS809 she proceeds to talk over him, hell, they talked over each other half a dozen times.

Really bad R/T discipline from all 3 on freq.
 
HNLPointShoot
Posts: 241
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:32 pm

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Sat Jul 03, 2021 8:39 am

SuperGee wrote:
Finally, was the Transair 732 ETOPS certified? I guess it wouldn't have made a difference in this flight since the events took place immediately after takeoff and right close by the field. Also,. their flights seem to be fairly short hops. I'm just curious though.


Transair only flies interisland, so there's no reason for them to need ETOPS certification. The 732 itself was only certified for 120-minute ETOPS, which isn't enough to fly from Hawaiʻi to anywhere outside of Hawaiʻi.
 
LTEN11
Posts: 316
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:09 am

Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Sat Jul 03, 2021 9:23 am

777Mech wrote:
F9Animal wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
VASAviation has made a good video with the ATC audio and transcripts, as well as a map to follow the flight. Very useful to understand the sequence of events.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3fpQcRSnFE


That was agonizing to listen to. I'm gonna guess the FO was running the radio? Lots of mumbling, and difficult to understand. Then came the walking over eachother. The tower missed the first warning that they might lose the other engine. Time is of the essence. I assume the Captain took on the radio near the end, and he was straight to the point in an authortive type of way. I think the controller knew then things were pretty dire. If the Captain had the radio from the start, I do believe they would have been able to get to a runway.

I do think they could have made the airport to the north if they had been more direct, less mumbling, and telling the tower how dire the situation was. I am armchair CEOing, so don't mind me. I know during my flight training, I was told how important it was in an emergency to be direct, clear, and tell them what I needed right away. I have noticed alot of pilots tend to put their mic up to their lips, and it can be challenging to understand them.

Thankful they made it out!


I don't think whoever was manning the radios would have mattered. IMO they needed to be turning back toward a downwind leg and running the checklists simultaneously instead of flying away from the airport and doing so. ATC will clear you wherever you need to go if you request.


Sure, that's easy to say for those not involved in hindsight, but you're not going to expect a second engine failure so soon after the first, it is a very rare occurrence. If it had been a multiple bird strike incident, there may have been more urgency to return, as in, we've lost one engine, I don't know if the other has ingested a bird as well, let's get on the ground a.s.a.p. No reports here of a bird strike, so the second engine starting to fail so soon after the first would appear to have taken the crew by surprise, so the urgent situation quickly developed into a full blown emergency and caught the crew with few options.

Hopefully they recover quickly from their injuries, they still did a remarkable job to perform the ditching at night in open water.
 
nm2582
Posts: 209
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2007 2:15 pm

Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Sat Jul 03, 2021 9:34 am

I will give them kudos on the successful ditching at night, but that radio recording is quite concerning in more ways than one. :(
 
MEA-707
Posts: 3897
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 1999 4:51 am

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:14 am

F9Animal wrote:
micstatic wrote:
is it possible they experienced problems with the engine, then shut down the wrong one like we've seen in the past. Hence had two non working engines?


I don't think that's the case here. He said the other engine was now running hot.

I think it still can be the case here. They might have shut down the fine functioning engine, while the troublesome one is then running hot.
 
777Mech
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Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:27 am

LTEN11 wrote:
777Mech wrote:
F9Animal wrote:

That was agonizing to listen to. I'm gonna guess the FO was running the radio? Lots of mumbling, and difficult to understand. Then came the walking over eachother. The tower missed the first warning that they might lose the other engine. Time is of the essence. I assume the Captain took on the radio near the end, and he was straight to the point in an authortive type of way. I think the controller knew then things were pretty dire. If the Captain had the radio from the start, I do believe they would have been able to get to a runway.

I do think they could have made the airport to the north if they had been more direct, less mumbling, and telling the tower how dire the situation was. I am armchair CEOing, so don't mind me. I know during my flight training, I was told how important it was in an emergency to be direct, clear, and tell them what I needed right away. I have noticed alot of pilots tend to put their mic up to their lips, and it can be challenging to understand them.

Thankful they made it out!


I don't think whoever was manning the radios would have mattered. IMO they needed to be turning back toward a downwind leg and running the checklists simultaneously instead of flying away from the airport and doing so. ATC will clear you wherever you need to go if you request.


Sure, that's easy to say for those not involved in hindsight, but you're not going to expect a second engine failure so soon after the first, it is a very rare occurrence. If it had been a multiple bird strike incident, there may have been more urgency to return, as in, we've lost one engine, I don't know if the other has ingested a bird as well, let's get on the ground a.s.a.p. No reports here of a bird strike, so the second engine starting to fail so soon after the first would appear to have taken the crew by surprise, so the urgent situation quickly developed into a full blown emergency and caught the crew with few options.

Hopefully they recover quickly from their injuries, they still did a remarkable job to perform the ditching at night in open water.


When it comes to engine shutdowns, depending on the reasoning behind shutting down the bad engine whether commanded or not, you can deduce what may happen next.

If it's just a vibration, you should expect the other to function as normal. However if you have a flameout in one engine (not saying it happened in this instance, just speculating), fuel starvation is a likely possibility and you could possibly be on borrowed time with your other engine.
 
bourbon
Posts: 186
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Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Sat Jul 03, 2021 11:29 am

I doubt this scenario plays out, but I hope they are able to get fuel samples without them being contaminated by the salt water.

They had a little bit of altitude so if they shut down the wrong engine they could have relit it. From the radio tapes it seems like both engines went out on their own with no crew intervention (thus removing the wrong engine theory), but that’s just how I interpreted the emergency from the ATC tapes. I cannot think of any scenario where a flight crew would willingly shut down their only working engine while in flight which leads me to believe something tainted the JetA quality or there was an immediate catastrophic fuel leak, but the fuel leak would have been captured by the crew from the fuel gauges. Tainted and/or wrong fuel has killed many pilots.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Sat Jul 03, 2021 12:15 pm

KingOrGod wrote:
cedarjet wrote:
Agreed the pilot who did the majority of the radio calls was ineffective. Air traffic controller missed the first two requests to return completely. He wasn’t the only culprit of poor RT. Almost every single transmission is stepped on by someone else making a call, which is crazy. Not sure what’s up with that


This.

The first call that they had a problem was really poorly transmitted. Mumbled and unclear.
She evidently didn't understand that, and cleared him to join V2 etc. And then he transmits over her, which means she cannot hear his emergency call.

Then what annoyed me, is RDS809 who would likely have heard this double transmission, says nothing ! - instead of "blocked" or "double transmission" to alert them to the double transmission.

Then, after the "radio check of RDS809 she proceeds to talk over him, hell, they talked over each other half a dozen times.

Really bad R/T discipline from all 3 on freq.


Speaking only from GA experience here, it seems a lot of the transmit stepping could have been avoided had the PNF issued a clear MAYDAY in his first emergency call.
 
Heinkel
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Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Sat Jul 03, 2021 12:37 pm

bourbon wrote:
I cannot think of any scenario where a flight crew would willingly shut down their only working engine while in flight...


Unfortunately there have been several crashes in the past, where the flight crew did exactly that. Willingly or not. They switched off the remaining working engine.
 
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flyPIT
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Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Sat Jul 03, 2021 1:06 pm

SuperGee wrote:
Finally, was the Transair 732 ETOPS certified? I guess it wouldn't have made a difference in this flight since the events took place immediately after takeoff and right close by the field. Also,. their flights seem to be fairly short hops. I'm just curious though.


While not required, I believe ETOPS certification could have had a huge positive impact on this flight if certified, which I assume it wasn’t.

IIRC 3 a/c generators are required for ETOPS. The 767 achieved this with a RAT (Ram AIr Turbine). On the 737 I believe the third source of a/c power is provided by simply keeping the APU (and its generator) running for the whole flight.

No need for a non-ETOPS 737 to keep its APU running between HNL-OGG. So on this flight after both engines flamed out they would be down to only battery/emergency electrical power, which sheds a whole host of electrical items.

Hopefully a 737-200 expert can chime in here, but as far as lighting I’m not sure if landing lights are available under such circumstances. Same for the automated radar altitude call outs during landing flare (“50...40...30...20...10”). Without those two things it would be a miracle anyone survived a night oceanic ditching. Especially the landing lights to put a shine on the swells/waves.

I think the controller did a wonderful job. Sounds like she was working Ground, Tower, and Approach all by herself. There might have been other aircraft calling (distracting) her on other frequencies which are not picked up on some of these recordings.
 
washingtonflyer
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Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Sat Jul 03, 2021 1:14 pm

You do realize that the first letter in ETOPS is E which stands for Extended. No need for extended operations when the direct distance is 100 miles and there are plenty of airfields in between.
 
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flyPIT
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Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Sat Jul 03, 2021 1:18 pm

    washingtonflyer wrote:
    You do realize that the first letter in ETOPS is E which stands for Extended. No need for extended operations when the direct distance is 100 miles and there are plenty of airfields in between.


    Is this in reply to my post (the quote function works well btw)? Read my first paragraph and the quote I was replying to again.
    Last edited by flyPIT on Sat Jul 03, 2021 1:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
     
    btfarrwm
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    Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

    Sat Jul 03, 2021 1:20 pm

    KingOrGod wrote:
    cedarjet wrote:
    Agreed the pilot who did the majority of the radio calls was ineffective. Air traffic controller missed the first two requests to return completely. He wasn’t the only culprit of poor RT. Almost every single transmission is stepped on by someone else making a call, which is crazy. Not sure what’s up with that


    This.

    The first call that they had a problem was really poorly transmitted. Mumbled and unclear.
    She evidently didn't understand that, and cleared him to join V2 etc. And then he transmits over her, which means she cannot hear his emergency call.

    Then what annoyed me, is RDS809 who would likely have heard this double transmission, says nothing ! - instead of "blocked" or "double transmission" to alert them to the double transmission.

    Then, after the "radio check of RDS809 she proceeds to talk over him, hell, they talked over each other half a dozen times.

    Really bad R/T discipline from all 3 on freq.



    It was also bad luck for the crew and the controllers that there was an inbound company flight on final approach with almost the exact same callsign. That had to add to the confusion. Maybe one recommendation would be to have more distinct flight numbers for future flights if they will be arriving or departing at the same time at the same airport.
     
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    TVNWZ
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    Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

    Sat Jul 03, 2021 1:39 pm

    I’m amazed we are still using 1920’s radio technology transmitting and receiving on the same frequency.
     
    GalaxyFlyer
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    Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

    Sat Jul 03, 2021 1:52 pm

    flyPIT wrote:
    SuperGee wrote:
    Finally, was the Transair 732 ETOPS certified? I guess it wouldn't have made a difference in this flight since the events took place immediately after takeoff and right close by the field. Also,. their flights seem to be fairly short hops. I'm just curious though.


    While not required, I believe ETOPS certification could have had a huge positive impact on this flight if certified, which I assume it wasn’t.

    IIRC 3 a/c generators are required for ETOPS. The 767 achieved this with a RAT (Ram AIr Turbine). On the 737 I believe the third source of a/c power is provided by simply keeping the APU (and its generator) running for the whole flight.

    No need for a non-ETOPS 737 to keep its APU running between HNL-OGG. So on this flight after both engines flamed out they would be down to only battery/emergency electrical power, which sheds a whole host of electrical items.

    Hopefully a 737-200 expert can chime in here, but as far as lighting I’m not sure if landing lights are available under such circumstances. Same for the automated radar altitude call outs during landing flare (“50...40...30...20...10”). Without those two things it would be a miracle anyone survived a night oceanic ditching. Especially the landing lights to put a shine on the swells/waves.

    I think the controller did a wonderful job. Sounds like she was working Ground, Tower, and Approach all by herself. There might have been other aircraft calling (distracting) her on other frequencies which are not picked up on some of these recordings.


    Can a 732 even be ETOPS equipped?
     
    GalaxyFlyer
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    Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

    Sat Jul 03, 2021 1:57 pm

    F9Animal wrote:
    JetBuddy wrote:
    VASAviation has made a good video with the ATC audio and transcripts, as well as a map to follow the flight. Very useful to understand the sequence of events.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3fpQcRSnFE


    That was agonizing to listen to. I'm gonna guess the FO was running the radio? Lots of mumbling, and difficult to understand. Then came the walking over eachother. The tower missed the first warning that they might lose the other engine. Time is of the essence. I assume the Captain took on the radio near the end, and he was straight to the point in an authortive type of way. I think the controller knew then things were pretty dire. If the Captain had the radio from the start, I do believe they would have been able to get to a runway.

    I do think they could have made the airport to the north if they had been more direct, less mumbling, and telling the tower how dire the situation was. I am armchair CEOing, so don't mind me. I know during my flight training, I was told how important it was in an emergency to be direct, clear, and tell them what I needed right away. I have noticed alot of pilots tend to put their mic up to their lips, and it can be challenging to understand them.

    Thankful they made it out!


    I thought the exact same thing. A clear transmission at the start would have made everything easier—“MAYDAY, we need to return to Honolulu now”. Second, how could they, even with the usual scattered deck at about 3,000’, not see, at least, the lights of the city? They were maybe 10 miles away, they’d very familiar and seemingly lost sight of the Big Picture—turn North. Both Barber’s Point and HNL are nearby.
     
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    flyPIT
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    Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

    Sat Jul 03, 2021 2:01 pm

    GalaxyFlyer wrote:
    flyPIT wrote:
    SuperGee wrote:
    Finally, was the Transair 732 ETOPS certified? I guess it wouldn't have made a difference in this flight since the events took place immediately after takeoff and right close by the field. Also,. their flights seem to be fairly short hops. I'm just curious though.


    While not required, I believe ETOPS certification could have had a huge positive impact on this flight if certified, which I assume it wasn’t.

    IIRC 3 a/c generators are required for ETOPS. The 767 achieved this with a RAT (Ram AIr Turbine). On the 737 I believe the third source of a/c power is provided by simply keeping the APU (and its generator) running for the whole flight.

    No need for a non-ETOPS 737 to keep its APU running between HNL-OGG. So on this flight after both engines flamed out they would be down to only battery/emergency electrical power, which sheds a whole host of electrical items.

    Hopefully a 737-200 expert can chime in here, but as far as lighting I’m not sure if landing lights are available under such circumstances. Same for the automated radar altitude call outs during landing flare (“50...40...30...20...10”). Without those two things it would be a miracle anyone survived a night oceanic ditching. Especially the landing lights to put a shine on the swells/waves.

    I think the controller did a wonderful job. Sounds like she was working Ground, Tower, and Approach all by herself. There might have been other aircraft calling (distracting) her on other frequencies which are not picked up on some of these recordings.


    Can a 732 even be ETOPS equipped?


    I don’t know. My greater point was (in response to the quote I was replying to) had this happened to a UA or AS 737 going to the west coast, those 737 crews would have had more tools available for this ditching than this inter island 737 crew had.
    Last edited by flyPIT on Sat Jul 03, 2021 2:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
     
    classicjets
    Posts: 380
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    Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

    Sat Jul 03, 2021 2:07 pm

    GalaxyFlyer wrote:
    Can a 732 even be ETOPS equipped?


    Yes, Aloha had at least one 737-200 ETOPS and flew it to Midway Island
     
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    Revelation
    Posts: 27037
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    Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

    Sat Jul 03, 2021 2:15 pm

    flyPIT wrote:
    IIRC 3 a/c generators are required for ETOPS. The 767 achieved this with a RAT (Ram AIr Turbine). On the 737 I believe the third source of a/c power is provided by simply keeping the APU (and its generator) running for the whole flight.

    No need for a non-ETOPS 737 to keep its APU running between HNL-OGG. So on this flight after both engines flamed out they would be down to only battery/emergency electrical power, which sheds a whole host of electrical items.

    Hopefully a 737-200 expert can chime in here, but as far as lighting I’m not sure if landing lights are available under such circumstances. Same for the automated radar altitude call outs during landing flare (“50...40...30...20...10”). Without those two things it would be a miracle anyone survived a night oceanic ditching. Especially the landing lights to put a shine on the swells/waves.

    I think the controller did a wonderful job. Sounds like she was working Ground, Tower, and Approach all by herself. There might have been other aircraft calling (distracting) her on other frequencies which are not picked up on some of these recordings.

    Re: electrical power: I recall the PNF asked for time to do checklists, and we can be confident that starting the APU is early on these checklists. Consider the 'Miracle on the Hudson', it's one of the first things the FO did. I guess we'll have to wait for the NTSB report for a fuller rendition of events.

    Re: controller: I wish the system did not make her work so hard under duress. I wish there were ways that she could shed some of the loads so she could focus on communicating with the emergency flight.

    TVNWZ wrote:
    I’m amazed we are still using 1920’s radio technology transmitting and receiving on the same frequency.

    I'd love to see a switch happen, but it'd be akin to the switch from analog TV to digital TV, everyone would have to be clear on the benefits before they switched. In the case of TV broadcasters, they were given the ability to transmit more content (sub-channels). In the case of consumers, you got a much better picture (HDTV) and better sound on the main channel and access to the sub-channels, at least for over-the-air service. In the case of the government in the US and presumably elsewhere, it allowed them to reallocate the radio spectrum and take in $billions in licensing fees from mobile phone operators.

    Not sure how any of this is going to happen with aviation radio. There are no 'win-win' scenarios available. The best case I can think of is it gets linked to ATC modernization, where the airlines get more efficient use of airspace if and only if they update their radios too. Yet doing that would be contentious, since many who do not get much if any benefit would also be expected to switch. Making a 'converter box' akin to what was provided for old analog TVs would be expensive since it'd have to handle both reception and transmission, so expensive that you'd just as well replace the old unit with a new one.

    And, of course, a full radio switch would need international agreement, and that would be extremely difficult to achieve under the current circumstances.

    The strange thing is we still have a few aircraft still operating from the 1910's mainly for entertainment purposes (ref: Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome, etc) and some from the 1940s that are still in airline pax and cargo service (DC3's at Buffalo Airways and many other places) so it's not too surprising the old radio technology lives on.

    Sorry for the long response, one of my other hobbies is radio technology...
    Last edited by Revelation on Sat Jul 03, 2021 2:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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