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groundbird wrote:
LIJet wrote:groundbird wrote:
Wow. The aircraft broke up and they find one pilot holding onto a cargo container and other standing on the tail. The tail submerges and the pilot winds up in the water. USCG rescues them both. Pilots report no lights, no emergency beacon going. All they saw was a fuel slick and debris; in open seas. Sounds like a miracle that the pilots were rescued. Great job by the USCG and ATC in locating this airplane and getting there quick enough to save them.
GalaxyFlyer wrote:Ceamajay wrote:GalaxyFlyer wrote:If it’s not fuel contamination, there aren’t many other explanations for both engines failing.
I agree that an EPA exemption for DEF in airside airport vehicles makes a great deal of sense, at the very least until better safeguards and practices can be developed to avoid cross-contamination. Every dock hand at every marina knows not to put water into a fuel tank or fuel into a water tank, but as long as boats have two holes about the same size, every once in a while some poor schmuck in a hurry is going to put the wrong hose in the wrong hole. And they're usually not doing it in Chicago during a blizzard.
That being said, in this particular incident, my money is on our feathered friends. God willing, the pilots will have a full recovery and can tell the NTSB which one of us was right.
Not a lot of large birds in Hawaii, no geese, either.
JetBuddy wrote:LIJet wrote:groundbird wrote:
Wow. The aircraft broke up and they find one pilot holding onto a cargo container and other standing on the tail. The tail submerges and the pilot winds up in the water. USCG rescues them both. Pilots report no lights, no emergency beacon going. All they saw was a fuel slick and debris; in open seas. Sounds like a miracle that the pilots were rescued. Great job by the USCG and ATC in locating this airplane and getting there quick enough to save them.
Absolutely. Those two USCG pilots gave a very good impression. The first real rescue for one of them, he seemed thrilled about it. Which he should be, this is exactly what they're training for. Heroes!
TWA302 wrote:GalaxyFlyer wrote:Ceamajay wrote:
I agree that an EPA exemption for DEF in airside airport vehicles makes a great deal of sense, at the very least until better safeguards and practices can be developed to avoid cross-contamination. Every dock hand at every marina knows not to put water into a fuel tank or fuel into a water tank, but as long as boats have two holes about the same size, every once in a while some poor schmuck in a hurry is going to put the wrong hose in the wrong hole. And they're usually not doing it in Chicago during a blizzard.
That being said, in this particular incident, my money is on our feathered friends. God willing, the pilots will have a full recovery and can tell the NTSB which one of us was right.
Not a lot of large birds in Hawaii, no geese, either.
Yes there are. Gulls are plentiful and the nene is a species of goose in Hawaii. Albatross are also there. Not saying it was the cause, just providing some alternative facts.
ATCJesus wrote:ikolkyo wrote:CNBC says crew members have been rescued, waiting to hear more but that is great news.
https://twitter.com/cnbcnow/status/1410 ... 69441?s=21
Of course CNBC was trying to imply it was possibly a MAX and connecting it to Boeing share price….
GalaxyFlyer wrote:TWA302 wrote:GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Not a lot of large birds in Hawaii, no geese, either.
Yes there are. Gulls are plentiful and the nene is a species of goose in Hawaii. Albatross are also there. Not saying it was the cause, just providing some alternative facts.
sphealey wrote:I read that one was taken by boat and the other by air. USCG probably made the save and transferred the survivor to the FD boat while they rushed the survivor in shock to the hospital by air.JetBuddy wrote:LIJet wrote:
Wow. The aircraft broke up and they find one pilot holding onto a cargo container and other standing on the tail. The tail submerges and the pilot winds up in the water. USCG rescues them both. Pilots report no lights, no emergency beacon going. All they saw was a fuel slick and debris; in open seas. Sounds like a miracle that the pilots were rescued. Great job by the USCG and ATC in locating this airplane and getting there quick enough to save them.
Absolutely. Those two USCG pilots gave a very good impression. The first real rescue for one of them, he seemed thrilled about it. Which he should be, this is exactly what they're training for. Heroes!
USCG report was that one pilot was rescued by a Honolulu Fire Department boat and one by the helicopter:
https://content.govdelivery.com/account ... ns/2e69d6a
micstatic wrote:is it possible they experienced problems with the engine, then shut down the wrong one like we've seen in the past. Hence had two non working engines?
LIJet wrote:sphealey wrote:I read that one was taken by boat and the other by air. USCG probably made the save and transferred the survivor to the FD boat while they rushed the survivor in shock to the hospital by air.JetBuddy wrote:
Absolutely. Those two USCG pilots gave a very good impression. The first real rescue for one of them, he seemed thrilled about it. Which he should be, this is exactly what they're training for. Heroes!
USCG report was that one pilot was rescued by a Honolulu Fire Department boat and one by the helicopter:
https://content.govdelivery.com/account ... ns/2e69d6a
Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk
hivue wrote:LIJet wrote:sphealey wrote:I read that one was taken by boat and the other by air. USCG probably made the save and transferred the survivor to the FD boat while they rushed the survivor in shock to the hospital by air.USCG report was that one pilot was rescued by a Honolulu Fire Department boat and one by the helicopter:
https://content.govdelivery.com/account ... ns/2e69d6a
Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk
In the Honolulu TV news interview with the CG Dolphin pilots they said they rescued both victims and transferred them from the crash site directly to the roof-top helicopter pad of the hospital.
The CG swimmer deserves a shout-out as much as the pilots.
zeke wrote:I have read several reports it took the coast guard helicopter took about an hour to get to the pilots, very strange considering how close they were.
“ U.S. Coast Guard Lt. Commander Karin Evelyn said in an email that they received a report around 1:40 a.m. of a downed inter-island transport plane. About an hour later, rescuers in a Coast Guard helicopter spotted the debris field and two people in the water, Evelyn said.”
From https://www.cbsnews.com/news/transair-f ... s-rescued/
News reports also indicate the older pilot who was airlifted to Queens hospital is in intensive care.
“ The rescue swimmer was able to get to the pilot in the water, and he was airlifted to the Queen’s Medical Center. The 58-year-old was reportedly in the intensive care unit in critical condition.”
From https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2021/07/0 ... h-2-board/
JetBuddy wrote:VASAviation has made a good video with the ATC audio and transcripts, as well as a map to follow the flight. Very useful to understand the sequence of events.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3fpQcRSnFE
btfarrwm wrote:Both of those contamination events involved contamination with DEF in an anti-icing additive in the fuel and not the fuel itself. Do they even add anti-icing additives for short hop flights around Hawaii?
btfarrwm wrote:TWA302 wrote:Here is the audio with pilots and ATC
https://youtu.be/J3FVr1jly0A
Engine 1 went out shortly after takeoff. Engine two was "running hot" and subsequently failed or was shut down. No mentions of fire on the ATC recordings but the pilots did ask for equipment on the runway. That's an interesting failure scenario.
DIRECTFLT wrote:Speaking of a short hop flight, I haven't read yet what the destination of Transair Flight 810 was.
F9Animal wrote:JetBuddy wrote:VASAviation has made a good video with the ATC audio and transcripts, as well as a map to follow the flight. Very useful to understand the sequence of events.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3fpQcRSnFE
That was agonizing to listen to. I'm gonna guess the FO was running the radio? Lots of mumbling, and difficult to understand. Then came the walking over eachother. The tower missed the first warning that they might lose the other engine. Time is of the essence. I assume the Captain took on the radio near the end, and he was straight to the point in an authortive type of way. I think the controller knew then things were pretty dire. If the Captain had the radio from the start, I do believe they would have been able to get to a runway.
I do think they could have made the airport to the north if they had been more direct, less mumbling, and telling the tower how dire the situation was. I am armchair CEOing, so don't mind me. I know during my flight training, I was told how important it was in an emergency to be direct, clear, and tell them what I needed right away. I have noticed alot of pilots tend to put their mic up to their lips, and it can be challenging to understand them.
Thankful they made it out!
cedarjet wrote:Agreed the pilot who did the majority of the radio calls was ineffective. Air traffic controller missed the first two requests to return completely. He wasn’t the only culprit of poor RT. Almost every single transmission is stepped on by someone else making a call, which is crazy. Not sure what’s up with that
SuperGee wrote:Finally, was the Transair 732 ETOPS certified? I guess it wouldn't have made a difference in this flight since the events took place immediately after takeoff and right close by the field. Also,. their flights seem to be fairly short hops. I'm just curious though.
777Mech wrote:F9Animal wrote:JetBuddy wrote:VASAviation has made a good video with the ATC audio and transcripts, as well as a map to follow the flight. Very useful to understand the sequence of events.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3fpQcRSnFE
That was agonizing to listen to. I'm gonna guess the FO was running the radio? Lots of mumbling, and difficult to understand. Then came the walking over eachother. The tower missed the first warning that they might lose the other engine. Time is of the essence. I assume the Captain took on the radio near the end, and he was straight to the point in an authortive type of way. I think the controller knew then things were pretty dire. If the Captain had the radio from the start, I do believe they would have been able to get to a runway.
I do think they could have made the airport to the north if they had been more direct, less mumbling, and telling the tower how dire the situation was. I am armchair CEOing, so don't mind me. I know during my flight training, I was told how important it was in an emergency to be direct, clear, and tell them what I needed right away. I have noticed alot of pilots tend to put their mic up to their lips, and it can be challenging to understand them.
Thankful they made it out!
I don't think whoever was manning the radios would have mattered. IMO they needed to be turning back toward a downwind leg and running the checklists simultaneously instead of flying away from the airport and doing so. ATC will clear you wherever you need to go if you request.
F9Animal wrote:micstatic wrote:is it possible they experienced problems with the engine, then shut down the wrong one like we've seen in the past. Hence had two non working engines?
I don't think that's the case here. He said the other engine was now running hot.
LTEN11 wrote:777Mech wrote:F9Animal wrote:
That was agonizing to listen to. I'm gonna guess the FO was running the radio? Lots of mumbling, and difficult to understand. Then came the walking over eachother. The tower missed the first warning that they might lose the other engine. Time is of the essence. I assume the Captain took on the radio near the end, and he was straight to the point in an authortive type of way. I think the controller knew then things were pretty dire. If the Captain had the radio from the start, I do believe they would have been able to get to a runway.
I do think they could have made the airport to the north if they had been more direct, less mumbling, and telling the tower how dire the situation was. I am armchair CEOing, so don't mind me. I know during my flight training, I was told how important it was in an emergency to be direct, clear, and tell them what I needed right away. I have noticed alot of pilots tend to put their mic up to their lips, and it can be challenging to understand them.
Thankful they made it out!
I don't think whoever was manning the radios would have mattered. IMO they needed to be turning back toward a downwind leg and running the checklists simultaneously instead of flying away from the airport and doing so. ATC will clear you wherever you need to go if you request.
Sure, that's easy to say for those not involved in hindsight, but you're not going to expect a second engine failure so soon after the first, it is a very rare occurrence. If it had been a multiple bird strike incident, there may have been more urgency to return, as in, we've lost one engine, I don't know if the other has ingested a bird as well, let's get on the ground a.s.a.p. No reports here of a bird strike, so the second engine starting to fail so soon after the first would appear to have taken the crew by surprise, so the urgent situation quickly developed into a full blown emergency and caught the crew with few options.
Hopefully they recover quickly from their injuries, they still did a remarkable job to perform the ditching at night in open water.
KingOrGod wrote:cedarjet wrote:Agreed the pilot who did the majority of the radio calls was ineffective. Air traffic controller missed the first two requests to return completely. He wasn’t the only culprit of poor RT. Almost every single transmission is stepped on by someone else making a call, which is crazy. Not sure what’s up with that
This.
The first call that they had a problem was really poorly transmitted. Mumbled and unclear.
She evidently didn't understand that, and cleared him to join V2 etc. And then he transmits over her, which means she cannot hear his emergency call.
Then what annoyed me, is RDS809 who would likely have heard this double transmission, says nothing ! - instead of "blocked" or "double transmission" to alert them to the double transmission.
Then, after the "radio check of RDS809 she proceeds to talk over him, hell, they talked over each other half a dozen times.
Really bad R/T discipline from all 3 on freq.
bourbon wrote:I cannot think of any scenario where a flight crew would willingly shut down their only working engine while in flight...
SuperGee wrote:Finally, was the Transair 732 ETOPS certified? I guess it wouldn't have made a difference in this flight since the events took place immediately after takeoff and right close by the field. Also,. their flights seem to be fairly short hops. I'm just curious though.
washingtonflyer wrote:You do realize that the first letter in ETOPS is E which stands for Extended. No need for extended operations when the direct distance is 100 miles and there are plenty of airfields in between.
KingOrGod wrote:cedarjet wrote:Agreed the pilot who did the majority of the radio calls was ineffective. Air traffic controller missed the first two requests to return completely. He wasn’t the only culprit of poor RT. Almost every single transmission is stepped on by someone else making a call, which is crazy. Not sure what’s up with that
This.
The first call that they had a problem was really poorly transmitted. Mumbled and unclear.
She evidently didn't understand that, and cleared him to join V2 etc. And then he transmits over her, which means she cannot hear his emergency call.
Then what annoyed me, is RDS809 who would likely have heard this double transmission, says nothing ! - instead of "blocked" or "double transmission" to alert them to the double transmission.
Then, after the "radio check of RDS809 she proceeds to talk over him, hell, they talked over each other half a dozen times.
Really bad R/T discipline from all 3 on freq.
flyPIT wrote:SuperGee wrote:Finally, was the Transair 732 ETOPS certified? I guess it wouldn't have made a difference in this flight since the events took place immediately after takeoff and right close by the field. Also,. their flights seem to be fairly short hops. I'm just curious though.
While not required, I believe ETOPS certification could have had a huge positive impact on this flight if certified, which I assume it wasn’t.
IIRC 3 a/c generators are required for ETOPS. The 767 achieved this with a RAT (Ram AIr Turbine). On the 737 I believe the third source of a/c power is provided by simply keeping the APU (and its generator) running for the whole flight.
No need for a non-ETOPS 737 to keep its APU running between HNL-OGG. So on this flight after both engines flamed out they would be down to only battery/emergency electrical power, which sheds a whole host of electrical items.
Hopefully a 737-200 expert can chime in here, but as far as lighting I’m not sure if landing lights are available under such circumstances. Same for the automated radar altitude call outs during landing flare (“50...40...30...20...10”). Without those two things it would be a miracle anyone survived a night oceanic ditching. Especially the landing lights to put a shine on the swells/waves.
I think the controller did a wonderful job. Sounds like she was working Ground, Tower, and Approach all by herself. There might have been other aircraft calling (distracting) her on other frequencies which are not picked up on some of these recordings.
F9Animal wrote:JetBuddy wrote:VASAviation has made a good video with the ATC audio and transcripts, as well as a map to follow the flight. Very useful to understand the sequence of events.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3fpQcRSnFE
That was agonizing to listen to. I'm gonna guess the FO was running the radio? Lots of mumbling, and difficult to understand. Then came the walking over eachother. The tower missed the first warning that they might lose the other engine. Time is of the essence. I assume the Captain took on the radio near the end, and he was straight to the point in an authortive type of way. I think the controller knew then things were pretty dire. If the Captain had the radio from the start, I do believe they would have been able to get to a runway.
I do think they could have made the airport to the north if they had been more direct, less mumbling, and telling the tower how dire the situation was. I am armchair CEOing, so don't mind me. I know during my flight training, I was told how important it was in an emergency to be direct, clear, and tell them what I needed right away. I have noticed alot of pilots tend to put their mic up to their lips, and it can be challenging to understand them.
Thankful they made it out!
GalaxyFlyer wrote:flyPIT wrote:SuperGee wrote:Finally, was the Transair 732 ETOPS certified? I guess it wouldn't have made a difference in this flight since the events took place immediately after takeoff and right close by the field. Also,. their flights seem to be fairly short hops. I'm just curious though.
While not required, I believe ETOPS certification could have had a huge positive impact on this flight if certified, which I assume it wasn’t.
IIRC 3 a/c generators are required for ETOPS. The 767 achieved this with a RAT (Ram AIr Turbine). On the 737 I believe the third source of a/c power is provided by simply keeping the APU (and its generator) running for the whole flight.
No need for a non-ETOPS 737 to keep its APU running between HNL-OGG. So on this flight after both engines flamed out they would be down to only battery/emergency electrical power, which sheds a whole host of electrical items.
Hopefully a 737-200 expert can chime in here, but as far as lighting I’m not sure if landing lights are available under such circumstances. Same for the automated radar altitude call outs during landing flare (“50...40...30...20...10”). Without those two things it would be a miracle anyone survived a night oceanic ditching. Especially the landing lights to put a shine on the swells/waves.
I think the controller did a wonderful job. Sounds like she was working Ground, Tower, and Approach all by herself. There might have been other aircraft calling (distracting) her on other frequencies which are not picked up on some of these recordings.
Can a 732 even be ETOPS equipped?
GalaxyFlyer wrote:Can a 732 even be ETOPS equipped?
flyPIT wrote:IIRC 3 a/c generators are required for ETOPS. The 767 achieved this with a RAT (Ram AIr Turbine). On the 737 I believe the third source of a/c power is provided by simply keeping the APU (and its generator) running for the whole flight.
No need for a non-ETOPS 737 to keep its APU running between HNL-OGG. So on this flight after both engines flamed out they would be down to only battery/emergency electrical power, which sheds a whole host of electrical items.
Hopefully a 737-200 expert can chime in here, but as far as lighting I’m not sure if landing lights are available under such circumstances. Same for the automated radar altitude call outs during landing flare (“50...40...30...20...10”). Without those two things it would be a miracle anyone survived a night oceanic ditching. Especially the landing lights to put a shine on the swells/waves.
I think the controller did a wonderful job. Sounds like she was working Ground, Tower, and Approach all by herself. There might have been other aircraft calling (distracting) her on other frequencies which are not picked up on some of these recordings.
TVNWZ wrote:I’m amazed we are still using 1920’s radio technology transmitting and receiving on the same frequency.