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RR757
Posts: 31
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Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Sat Jul 03, 2021 2:15 pm

Heinkel wrote:
bourbon wrote:
I cannot think of any scenario where a flight crew would willingly shut down their only working engine while in flight...


Unfortunately there have been several crashes in the past, where the flight crew did exactly that. Willingly or not. They switched off the remaining working engine.


Yes, this happened to British Midland 92 a brand new 737-400 in 1988. After a single engine failure, they shut down the good remaining engine - unfortunate outcome.
 
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flyPIT
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Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Sat Jul 03, 2021 2:35 pm

Revelation wrote:
Re: electrical power: I recall the PNF asked for time to do checklists, and we can be confident that starting the APU is early on these checklists. Consider the 'Miracle on the Hudson', it's one of the first things the FO did. I guess we'll have to wait for the NTSB report for a fuller rendition of events..

Well no, when the FO asked for time to do checklists that was when they lost one engine and assumed the other was fine, and under that condition starting the APU is not one of the first items. Now when they lost all engine power, that is a separate checklist in which starting the APU is higher on the list. I imagine the crew was working their way through the first checklist when it became evident they needed to suddenly do another checklist. All in the heat of battle at low altitude with equipment failures.
 
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Polot
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Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Sat Jul 03, 2021 2:41 pm

RR757 wrote:
Heinkel wrote:
bourbon wrote:
I cannot think of any scenario where a flight crew would willingly shut down their only working engine while in flight...


Unfortunately there have been several crashes in the past, where the flight crew did exactly that. Willingly or not. They switched off the remaining working engine.


Yes, this happened to British Midland 92 a brand new 737-400 in 1988. After a single engine failure, they shut down the good remaining engine - unfortunate outcome.

Also more recently with TransAsia 235 in 2015 (an ATR72, that was also less than a year old). They had right engine problems and shut down the left engine. Also unfortunate outcome.
 
GZM1
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Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Sat Jul 03, 2021 2:52 pm

When pilots decide to shut down an engine-the experts said on the aftermath of BMA accident in January 1989- they should leave it running at 10% of its power in case they decide to restart it, otherwise they won’t be able to.
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Sat Jul 03, 2021 3:01 pm

HNLPointShoot wrote:
SuperGee wrote:
Finally, was the Transair 732 ETOPS certified? I guess it wouldn't have made a difference in this flight since the events took place immediately after takeoff and right close by the field. Also,. their flights seem to be fairly short hops. I'm just curious though.


Transair only flies interisland, so there's no reason for them to need ETOPS certification. The 732 itself was only certified for 120-minute ETOPS, which isn't enough to fly from Hawaiʻi to anywhere outside of Hawaiʻi.


When was the 732 given ETOPS-120? Prior to 1985 twin engined planes had to fly within 60 minutes of a diversion airport.
 
JoseSalazar
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Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Sat Jul 03, 2021 3:07 pm

flyingclrs727 wrote:
HNLPointShoot wrote:
SuperGee wrote:
Finally, was the Transair 732 ETOPS certified? I guess it wouldn't have made a difference in this flight since the events took place immediately after takeoff and right close by the field. Also,. their flights seem to be fairly short hops. I'm just curious though.


Transair only flies interisland, so there's no reason for them to need ETOPS certification. The 732 itself was only certified for 120-minute ETOPS, which isn't enough to fly from Hawaiʻi to anywhere outside of Hawaiʻi.


When was the 732 given ETOPS-120? Prior to 1985 twin engined planes had to fly within 60 minutes of a diversion airport.


Lots of threads on the Google but here’s one viewtopic.php?t=444615

And some history from Boeing: https://boeing.mediaroom.com/1999-09-14 ... 80-Minutes

So 1985 looks like the first 732 ETOPS 120 approval.
 
MrBretz
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Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Sat Jul 03, 2021 3:43 pm

Has anyone seen an update on the pilots’ conditions?
 
F9Animal
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Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Sat Jul 03, 2021 3:59 pm

classicjets wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Can a 732 even be ETOPS equipped?


Yes, Aloha had at least one 737-200 ETOPS and flew it to Midway Island


Wow!! I had no idea the -200 could be certified for that! Learning something new every single day!

So we always learn something new from a crash like this. I am hopeful companies will at minimum do some extra radio training. There were so many missed opportunities to get that plane down on a runway. Again, I am being the armchair CEO here, and I know airnetters don't like that! But that was a major flaw in my opinion. I think of an emergency on a radio as an opportunity to give the Who What When Where How and Why. Kind of like calling 911. Give the dispatcher a quick rundown with location.

Again, an absolute gem of airmanship to get that plane down in an ocean at night, and be able to well... Swim away from it? Was hopeful we could get some updates on the condition of the pilots!
 
planecane
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Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Sat Jul 03, 2021 4:25 pm

Revelation wrote:

TVNWZ wrote:
I’m amazed we are still using 1920’s radio technology transmitting and receiving on the same frequency.

I'd love to see a switch happen, but it'd be akin to the switch from analog TV to digital TV, everyone would have to be clear on the benefits before they switched. In the case of TV broadcasters, they were given the ability to transmit more content (sub-channels). In the case of consumers, you got a much better picture (HDTV) and better sound on the main channel and access to the sub-channels, at least for over-the-air service. In the case of the government in the US and presumably elsewhere, it allowed them to reallocate the radio spectrum and take in $billions in licensing fees from mobile phone operators.

Not sure how any of this is going to happen with aviation radio. There are no 'win-win' scenarios available. The best case I can think of is it gets linked to ATC modernization, where the airlines get more efficient use of airspace if and only if they update their radios too. Yet doing that would be contentious, since many who do not get much if any benefit would also be expected to switch. Making a 'converter box' akin to what was provided for old analog TVs would be expensive since it'd have to handle both reception and transmission, so expensive that you'd just as well replace the old unit with a new one.

And, of course, a full radio switch would need international agreement, and that would be extremely difficult to achieve under the current circumstances.



One of the biggest hurdles wouldn't be technological but bureaucratic. You'd need spectrum freed up for the complementary frequency. You could also switch to digital and come up with a Time Division Duplex scheme but if it shared the current frequencies, the switchover would be difficult logistically. Time Division Duplex also has to have at least some delay in the transmission as you have to encode a period of time into a data packet before transmitting it.

In reality, whether you replaced the current architecture with Frequency Division Duplex or Time Division Duplex, you'd have to open up new spectrum for the new system and then have a transition period where the legacy system could be used simultaneously for quite some time until all aircraft could be upgraded.
 
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Revelation
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Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Sat Jul 03, 2021 4:25 pm

flyPIT wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Re: electrical power: I recall the PNF asked for time to do checklists, and we can be confident that starting the APU is early on these checklists. Consider the 'Miracle on the Hudson', it's one of the first things the FO did. I guess we'll have to wait for the NTSB report for a fuller rendition of events..

Well no, when the FO asked for time to do checklists that was when they lost one engine and assumed the other was fine, and under that condition starting the APU is not one of the first items. Now when they lost all engine power, that is a separate checklist in which starting the APU is higher on the list. I imagine the crew was working their way through the first checklist when it became evident they needed to suddenly do another checklist. All in the heat of battle at low altitude with equipment failures.

737 QRH section 7.2 ( https://aviaforum.ams3.cdn.digitalocean ... 68092a.pdf ) says once you decide the first engine is unusable, you turn the engine's start selector to cutoff, turn the pack that the engine drives to off, then start the APU. That's pretty darn early to me.
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Sat Jul 03, 2021 4:45 pm

JoseSalazar wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:
HNLPointShoot wrote:

Transair only flies interisland, so there's no reason for them to need ETOPS certification. The 732 itself was only certified for 120-minute ETOPS, which isn't enough to fly from Hawaiʻi to anywhere outside of Hawaiʻi.


When was the 732 given ETOPS-120? Prior to 1985 twin engined planes had to fly within 60 minutes of a diversion airport.


Lots of threads on the Google but here’s one viewtopic.php?t=444615

And some history from Boeing: https://boeing.mediaroom.com/1999-09-14 ... 80-Minutes

So 1985 looks like the first 732 ETOPS 120 approval.


But ETOPS ratings must be approved for each aircraft and each carrier. Just because one airline has modified their aircraft and adjusted maintenance and training to meet ETOPS regulations doesn't mean every aircraft of that type is now ETOPS rated.
 
SteelChair
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Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Sat Jul 03, 2021 4:45 pm

GZM1 wrote:
When pilots decide to shut down an engine-the experts said on the aftermath of BMA accident in January 1989- they should leave it running at 10% of its power in case they decide to restart it, otherwise they won’t be able to.


Aircraft gas turbines idle at around 60%
 
JoseSalazar
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Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Sat Jul 03, 2021 5:03 pm

flyingclrs727 wrote:
JoseSalazar wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:

When was the 732 given ETOPS-120? Prior to 1985 twin engined planes had to fly within 60 minutes of a diversion airport.


Lots of threads on the Google but here’s one viewtopic.php?t=444615

And some history from Boeing: https://boeing.mediaroom.com/1999-09-14 ... 80-Minutes

So 1985 looks like the first 732 ETOPS 120 approval.


But ETOPS ratings must be approved for each aircraft and each carrier. Just because one airline has modified their aircraft and adjusted maintenance and training to meet ETOPS regulations doesn't mean every aircraft of that type is now ETOPS rated.

Nobody claimed all 732s were ETOPS. You asked when the 732 was given etops 120. I gave you a link to a discussion about the one airline that did it, as well as a Boeing link saying 732 got approval in 1985. Not sure what other kind of answer you want.
 
washingtonflyer
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Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Sat Jul 03, 2021 5:14 pm

Revelation wrote:
I’m amazed we are still using 1920’s radio technology transmitting and receiving on the same frequency.
I'd love to see a switch happen, but it'd be akin to the switch from analog TV to digital TV, everyone would have to be clear on the benefits before they switched. In the case of TV broadcasters, they were given the ability to transmit more content (sub-channels). In the case of consumers, you got a much better picture (HDTV) and better sound on the main channel and access to the sub-channels, at least for over-the-air service. In the case of the government in the US and presumably elsewhere, it allowed them to reallocate the radio spectrum and take in $billions in licensing fees from mobile phone operators.


I'm not sure if its as difficult as you make it out ot be. The amateur service makes use of "split frequency" operation all of the time. Most all amateur radios produced after about 1990 have the ability to operate "split".

In terms of spectrum, you first have to agree to get off AM which is a wide frequency mode - upwards of 6 KHz. If you switched to SSB (which is used on HF by aircraft) you could reduce the spread to 2.7 to 3.0 Khz. With a 5 KHz split offset, I think its pretty doable.

I think the real problem is that an ATC frequency is not only Tower to aircraft and vice versa. Aircraft want (and need) to hear what other aircraft are saying as well. A lot of errors and misqueues have been rectified by another aircraft relaying or correction prior instructions or commands.
 
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Francoflier
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Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Sat Jul 03, 2021 5:17 pm

SteelChair wrote:
GZM1 wrote:
When pilots decide to shut down an engine-the experts said on the aftermath of BMA accident in January 1989- they should leave it running at 10% of its power in case they decide to restart it, otherwise they won’t be able to.


Aircraft gas turbines idle at around 60%


Turbine speed may be 60% at idle, but the power(thrust) will only be a few %.
Turbine engine thrust does not increase linearly with RPM.
 
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flyPIT
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Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Sat Jul 03, 2021 6:32 pm

Revelation wrote:
737 QRH section 7.2 ( https://aviaforum.ams3.cdn.digitalocean ... 68092a.pdf ) says once you decide the first engine is unusable, you turn the engine's start selector to cutoff, turn the pack that the engine drives to off, then start the APU. That's pretty darn early to me.


No it isn't. You must run through each step on each checklist.

Per 7.2 on the link you provide it is step #8 under "Engine Limit or Surge or Stall" (page 144 of the pdf)

Per 7.2 on the link you provided, the APU is step #6 under "Engine Failure or Shutdown" (page 158 of the pdf)

For all we know at this point, they might have started on the first checklist then realized they needed the "Engine Failure" checklist, and before even getting to the APU on that one realized they needed to start on a third checklist (Loss of Thrust On Both Engines, page 148), in which case again the APU is #8 on the list.

Hardly the 1-2-3 step process you make it out to be.

Furthermore, the QRH you quoted is tailored for Shanghai Airlines and their 737-700/800s. You aren't even on the correct 737 variant.
 
r6russian
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Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Sat Jul 03, 2021 7:17 pm

all the time spent heading out away from the airport running checklists, they couldve easily saved the airplane if they just turned around and landed immediately. And they should send the pilots of 809 back to 2nd grade to learn some numbers, they were stepping all over comms for 810, clearly cant understand numbers and only responding to the callsign. They would be having a lot of fun flying for any major at any of their hubs if they cant tell 809 from 810
 
nm2582
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Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Sat Jul 03, 2021 7:24 pm

r6russian wrote:
all the time spent heading out away from the airport running checklists, they couldve easily saved the airplane if they just turned around and landed immediately. And they should send the pilots of 809 back to 2nd grade to learn some numbers, they were stepping all over comms for 810, clearly cant understand numbers and only responding to the callsign. They would be having a lot of fun flying for any major at any of their hubs if they cant tell 809 from 810


checklists exist for a reason; if they thought they were dealing with a routine single engine out scenario, they would have done the checklists as per training.
 
11C
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Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Sat Jul 03, 2021 7:48 pm

I’m not sure what is “routine” about losing an engine at night over the water. I’d say there is plenty of tension in that situation.
 
JoseSalazar
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Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Sat Jul 03, 2021 7:52 pm

nm2582 wrote:
r6russian wrote:
all the time spent heading out away from the airport running checklists, they couldve easily saved the airplane if they just turned around and landed immediately. And they should send the pilots of 809 back to 2nd grade to learn some numbers, they were stepping all over comms for 810, clearly cant understand numbers and only responding to the callsign. They would be having a lot of fun flying for any major at any of their hubs if they cant tell 809 from 810


checklists exist for a reason; if they thought they were dealing with a routine single engine out scenario, they would have done the checklists as per training.

Every jet I've flown calls for the APU to come on (if available and within parameters such as speed and altitude, which, when low and slow, you generally are) at some point in the checklist for an engine failure. As soon as the airplane is stabilized, under control, autopilot is engaged, as we begin running the checklist, and as the FO works through it, I generally reach up and turn the APU on even if we haven't got to that step yet. I know when I can/can't start it, it won't hurt anything, and I know it's coming...but more importantly, as this instance has shown (and Sully's for that matter), an engine failure low to the ground could very well be followed by a second if the first was caused by birds, or bad fuel, or whatever. I don't want to find out what flying a giant glider with no electrics other than the RAT is like. If one motor goes, and the other is running hot, I'm sure as hell not waiting for the correct part of the checklist to turn the APU on.

That said, I'm not Monday morning QBing this crew. For all we know they had the APU on. I haven't seen whether or not it was on yet. And if not, we don't know if they attempted an APU start. If they had bad fuel, it might not have started.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Sat Jul 03, 2021 8:04 pm

nm2582 wrote:
r6russian wrote:
all the time spent heading out away from the airport running checklists, they couldve easily saved the airplane if they just turned around and landed immediately. And they should send the pilots of 809 back to 2nd grade to learn some numbers, they were stepping all over comms for 810, clearly cant understand numbers and only responding to the callsign. They would be having a lot of fun flying for any major at any of their hubs if they cant tell 809 from 810


checklists exist for a reason; if they thought they were dealing with a routine single engine out scenario, they would have done the checklists as per training.



You have to run the procedures, you don’t have to run them while headed away from the airport. They could have just turned north as soon as the decision was made to return to PHNL.
 
nm2582
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Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Sat Jul 03, 2021 8:04 pm

11C wrote:
I’m not sure what is “routine” about losing an engine at night over the water. I’d say there is plenty of tension in that situation.


It's not a "routine" event in normal operations, no; but it is "routine" in that engine-out scenarios are a well-trained event that both pilots would have demonstrated proficiency in handling more than once.
 
bourbon
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Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Sat Jul 03, 2021 8:15 pm

Polot wrote:
RR757 wrote:
Heinkel wrote:

Unfortunately there have been several crashes in the past, where the flight crew did exactly that. Willingly or not. They switched off the remaining working engine.


Yes, this happened to British Midland 92 a brand new 737-400 in 1988. After a single engine failure, they shut down the good remaining engine - unfortunate outcome.

Also more recently with TransAsia 235 in 2015 (an ATR72, that was also less than a year old). They had right engine problems and shut down the left engine. Also unfortunate outcome.


The one I’m Taiwan was immediately after departure though which is imminent doom. The BMI one was shut down willingly. Just from my interpretation of the initial data provided (emphasizing the initial data - which isn’t that much at all) it seems as thought the first engine went out without crew input.
 
bourbon
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Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Sat Jul 03, 2021 8:23 pm

r6russian wrote:
all the time spent heading out away from the airport running checklists, they couldve easily saved the airplane if they just turned around and landed immediately. And they should send the pilots of 809 back to 2nd grade to learn some numbers, they were stepping all over comms for 810, clearly cant understand numbers and only responding to the callsign. They would be having a lot of fun flying for any major at any of their hubs if they cant tell 809 from 810


Hindsight being 20/20 - had 810 declared an immediate “mayday mayday mayday” I imagine 809 would have shut up, the tower vector 809 to the west, everyone else shut their traps, cost guard get activated quicker (maybe) - but more importantly the tower would have known quicker how dire the situation was.
 
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Polot
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Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Sat Jul 03, 2021 8:52 pm

bourbon wrote:
Polot wrote:
RR757 wrote:

Yes, this happened to British Midland 92 a brand new 737-400 in 1988. After a single engine failure, they shut down the good remaining engine - unfortunate outcome.

Also more recently with TransAsia 235 in 2015 (an ATR72, that was also less than a year old). They had right engine problems and shut down the left engine. Also unfortunate outcome.


The one I’m Taiwan was immediately after departure though which is imminent doom. The BMI one was shut down willingly. Just from my interpretation of the initial data provided (emphasizing the initial data - which isn’t that much at all) it seems as thought the first engine went out without crew input.

Twin engine planes can fly with one engine, even during departure. The TransAsia flight crew shut down the wrong engine. The shut down the engine that was working perfectly instead of the one that experienced engine failure (which is the engine they were intending to shut down). The British Midland crew did the exact same thing.
 
N1120A
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Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Sat Jul 03, 2021 8:54 pm

Folks blaming the controller are absurd. They clearly can't paint the mental picture of what she was dealing with. She was working tower, approach and departure, on different frequencies. HCF Center probably needed to just be switching everyone to a single frequency, assuming the ones at HNL tower work far enough out for their approach sectors. As she was on multiple frequencies, planes were stepping on each other unknowingly. If the radio on the accident plane was as bad in her ear as it sounded on the recording, that compounded things, on top of the fact that the pilot speaking on the radio didn't just call out MAYDAY or even emergency clearly.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
nm2582 wrote:
r6russian wrote:
all the time spent heading out away from the airport running checklists, they couldve easily saved the airplane if they just turned around and landed immediately. And they should send the pilots of 809 back to 2nd grade to learn some numbers, they were stepping all over comms for 810, clearly cant understand numbers and only responding to the callsign. They would be having a lot of fun flying for any major at any of their hubs if they cant tell 809 from 810


checklists exist for a reason; if they thought they were dealing with a routine single engine out scenario, they would have done the checklists as per training.



You have to run the procedures, you don’t have to run them while headed away from the airport. They could have just turned north as soon as the decision was made to return to PHNL.


Yeah, this is the real key. There is just no reason to turn straight out to sea and keep going. Get an immediate downwind - the weather was VFR. If you need more time, Kalaeloa is on the extended downwind if you end up losing it closer there.
 
flyXJT
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Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Sat Jul 03, 2021 9:10 pm

Spacepope wrote:
Ceamajay wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
If it’s not fuel contamination, there aren’t many other explanations for both engines failing.


I agree that an EPA exemption for DEF in airside airport vehicles makes a great deal of sense, at the very least until better safeguards and practices can be developed to avoid cross-contamination. Every dock hand at every marina knows not to put water into a fuel tank or fuel into a water tank, but as long as boats have two holes about the same size, every once in a while some poor schmuck in a hurry is going to put the wrong hose in the wrong hole. And they're usually not doing it in Chicago during a blizzard.

That being said, in this particular incident, my money is on our feathered friends. God willing, the pilots will have a full recovery and can tell the NTSB which one of us was right.


I'm not overly against an exemption however anyone dumb enough to put DEF into a fuel tank headed for an aircraft upload has no business being anywhere near an airport, even as self loading freight. One would figure a job would take up too much of their paste eating time.


Not to excuse anybody who has made the mistake, but it is a lot more of a holes in the swiss cheese lining up than just "putting DEF in a fuel tank." In the circumstances that have occurred, the DEF was accidentally put into the deicing inhibitor tank. This is important for a few reasons:

1) deicing inhibitor such as prist and DEF are both colorless, and odorless so they appear similar
2) the deicing inhibitor tank is usually a similar size and location to the DEF tanks on a lot of smaller fuel trucks
3) Typically both the deicing inhibitor and DEF are in 55 gallon barrels and in spill containment so product labeling isn't easy to see. They are often co-located too so the operators can top off all fluids when topping off the jet fuel in the truck.
4) The DEF being added to the inhibitor tank allows the DEF to be injected into the fuel stream after it has passed through the trucks fuel filters.
5) Both DEF and deice inhibitors are just "dumped" into the tank via hand pump, gas can, etc so there is no female to male connector safeguard or specific nozzles (like a J spout for Jet A for instance)
6) If DEF was added directly into the fuel tank, it would mix with the Jet and and crystalize on the filter blocking fuel flow (same way it causes engine failures) meaning it would cause the truck to fail before it would get pumped into the aircraft.

Obviously now that the threat is known a lot of providers have put in safeguards such as adding witnesses, lock and keys, and segregation of fluids. Jet engines can burn horrifically contaminated fuel and still not fail - DEF is unique that in trace amounts it causes the crystallization and eventual starvation of the engines. We are talking about just a few ounces in thousands of gallons of clean fuel.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Sat Jul 03, 2021 9:20 pm

There was a scattered deck around 4500’ and 10 miles visibility, based on the METAR. They should have easily got a visual on both airports or at least the city if the turned to the NNW. Monday morning QB, sure, but it situations like this where pilots need to control startle or fear and think. That’s what training is about, more than rote memory.
 
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CrewBunk
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Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Sat Jul 03, 2021 9:27 pm

It appears, listening to the link above, that as soon as they realized they were losing the second engine (and it wasn’t a “routine” engine failure) they were trying to get vectored back toward the field again. That request/clearance was delayed by the controller talking over them and being blocked by the other aircraft.

For those wondering why a checklist anyway, one has to understand that certain things in the cockpit have to be set up for a single engine landing. Otherwise you may be surprised by what doesn’t work on touchdown. More so with more advanced aircraft, but even the basic 737-200. If the Standby Power switch is not flipped some electrical functions will be lost on touchdown. Surprise!

With regard to starting the APU. You have to remember, with the loss of both engine driven generators, the ONLY electrical source is the battery. A new battery can be relied upon for approximately 30 minutes. Every APU start attempt reduces your battery life by 10 minutes!

We used to do Standby Power Approaches (battery only) in the simulator a lot. It was a real time critical exercise. The decision to start the APU was a tough one. But, on starting, your life got a lot easier. Problem is, the negative training, as in the simulator, the APU never started.
 
UA748i
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Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Sat Jul 03, 2021 9:37 pm

Is it true that they are going to attempt to recover the aircraft?
 
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Revelation
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Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Sat Jul 03, 2021 9:41 pm

flyPIT wrote:
No it isn't. You must run through each step on each checklist.

Per 7.2 on the link you provide it is step #8 under "Engine Limit or Surge or Stall" (page 144 of the pdf)

Per 7.2 on the link you provided, the APU is step #6 under "Engine Failure or Shutdown" (page 158 of the pdf)

For all we know at this point, they might have started on the first checklist then realized they needed the "Engine Failure" checklist, and before even getting to the APU on that one realized they needed to start on a third checklist (Loss of Thrust On Both Engines, page 148), in which case again the APU is #8 on the list.

You are the one who stipulated the starting point as "when they lost one engine" so I wrote "once you decide the first engine is unusable" to affirm the starting point, and given that is the starting point, what I wrote is correct. No idea why you're bouncing back to the both engines out case.

flyPIT wrote:
Furthermore, the QRH you quoted is tailored for Shanghai Airlines and their 737-700/800s. You aren't even on the correct 737 variant.

Hair splitting. If you have a better source, please post it, otherwise I can't agree that starting the APU is not done shortly after shutting down the failed engine.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 9172
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Sat Jul 03, 2021 9:51 pm

UA748i wrote:
Is it true that they are going to attempt to recover the aircraft?


The NTSB might go that route or use an ROV to get the recorders. The decision will depend on their interviews, review of maintenance and training records, judgement on whether physical evidence is needed.
 
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CrewBunk
Posts: 396
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Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:14 pm

Revelation wrote:
If you have a better source, please post it, otherwise I can't agree that starting the APU is not done shortly after shutting down the failed engine.


I pulled out the 737-200 QRH. In fact, it’s one for that actual aircraft, as I flew it 20+ years ago at CP.

It is as you state, but really depends on the reason for the failure. If the engine just failed, as it appears to have in this case, the “Engine Failure and Shutdown” checklist is:

Thrust lever …. IDLE
Start lever …. CUTOFF
APU …. START AND ON BUS
(Then other items).

So yes, it’s as you guessed, the APU is started quickly.

If it was an engine fire, (does not appear so in this case) then after memory items are completed, it’s:

Isolation valve switch …. CLOSE
APU Bleed Air Switch …. OFF
APU …. START AND ON BUS
(Then other items).

Again, the APU is started quickly.

I should also mention, “Engine Overheat” is an actual warning, with its own checklist. It sounds like they had more than a handful in a very short time.
 
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AngelsDecay
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Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:34 pm

I fully recognize this is not important for the final investigation, but it really surprises me i've never heard in the entire ATC comms the words "Pan Pan" or "Mayday"...i really wish all the best for the pilots.
 
ATCJesus
Posts: 60
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2019 3:39 am

Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Sat Jul 03, 2021 11:02 pm

AngelsDecay wrote:
I fully recognize this is not important for the final investigation, but it really surprises me i've never heard in the entire ATC comms the words "Pan Pan" or "Mayday"...i really wish all the best for the pilots.


Nobody in the US uses mayday or pan pan usually unless they are a foreign pilot or maybe a GA pilot. Trust me, that doesn’t make a difference to controllers. If you tell us there’s literally the smallest thing wrong with the plane, we are treating it as an emergency.


The speculation about ATC in this thread is wild…
 
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flyPIT
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Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Sat Jul 03, 2021 11:22 pm

Revelation wrote:
You are the one who stipulated the starting point as "when they lost one engine" so I wrote "once you decide the first engine is unusable" to affirm the starting point, and given that is the starting point, what I wrote is correct. No idea why you're bouncing back to the both engines out case. .

I never suggested to start a checklist in the middle as you seem to be doing. I’m bouncing back to the both engines out case... because both engines subsequently failed. That is a different checklist... which is done from the beginning.
 
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AirKevin
Posts: 1060
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Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:05 am

r6russian wrote:
And they should send the pilots of 809 back to 2nd grade to learn some numbers, they were stepping all over comms for 810, clearly cant understand numbers and only responding to the callsign. They would be having a lot of fun flying for any major at any of their hubs if they cant tell 809 from 810

Not sure which ATC clip you were listening to, because the one I was listening to had the pilots of 810 respond to a set of instructions intended for 809, not the other way around. It also sounded like the controller and the crew of 810 were stepping on each other, so I'm not really too sure where 809 comes into this.
 
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9lflyguy
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Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:35 am

Spacepope wrote:
flyXJT wrote:
Spacepope wrote:
Looking at DEF as a cause especially this early seems irrational.


Also most commercial aircraft don't use icing inhibitors in the United States. At the airport I work at, our commercial fuel trucks are different from our GA trucks as they do not have the Prist tank installed and the injection system is disabled. So unless the DEF was added directly to fuel somewhere upstream, DEF contamination is highly unlikely.
 
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SuperGee
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Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:52 am

 
KingOrGod
Posts: 220
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Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Sun Jul 04, 2021 5:26 am

Aaron747 wrote:
KingOrGod wrote:
cedarjet wrote:
Agreed the pilot who did the majority of the radio calls was ineffective. Air traffic controller missed the first two requests to return completely. He wasn’t the only culprit of poor RT. Almost every single transmission is stepped on by someone else making a call, which is crazy. Not sure what’s up with that


This.

The first call that they had a problem was really poorly transmitted. Mumbled and unclear.
She evidently didn't understand that, and cleared him to join V2 etc. And then he transmits over her, which means she cannot hear his emergency call.

Then what annoyed me, is RDS809 who would likely have heard this double transmission, says nothing ! - instead of "blocked" or "double transmission" to alert them to the double transmission.

Then, after the "radio check of RDS809 she proceeds to talk over him, hell, they talked over each other half a dozen times.

Really bad R/T discipline from all 3 on freq.


Speaking only from GA experience here, it seems a lot of the transmit stepping could have been avoided had the PNF issued a clear MAYDAY in his first emergency call.


Totally agree here. As an ATC I can promise you this, if you need my attention, say it loudly, and proudly, MAYDAY. Whatever you want, we will make it happen.

And old adage from my ATC training a long time ago "When in doubt, mumble". I used to needle my trainees about this, as it seems to be the default setting for when one doesn't know what to do next. Think. Then speak.
 
rbavfan
Posts: 4075
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Sun Jul 04, 2021 6:44 am

airboss787 wrote:
YYZYYT wrote:
ATCJesus wrote:

Of course CNBC was trying to imply it was possibly a MAX and connecting it to Boeing share price….


But there's a picture of a 737 MAX in the article - so it MUST be connected, right? :sarcastic:


And the caption mentions 727 MAX 9. So yayy to aviation journalism!! :banghead: although Leslie Josephs is pretty good!


LOL not to mention there is not evan a cargo model availabel as on option.
 
rbavfan
Posts: 4075
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Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Sun Jul 04, 2021 6:55 am

ajsljet45 wrote:
btfarrwm wrote:
Here's a link to the ATC audio recording. First contact at ~2m in the recording. Trouble starts at ~2m55s. No transmissions from the aircraft but ATC transmissions are there. Accident aircraft is Rhodes 810.

https://archive.liveatc.net/phnl/PHNL1- ... -1130Z.mp3



I’ve always been meaning to ask - why is it so damn important for ATC to insist on knowing fuel and souls onboard when pilots are dealing with life or death situations like this? Could this not be determined after the accident if it occurs? Is it so critical that ATC must distract the pilots from the task at hand to give that info at that moment?


If your tanks are at 65% fuel or 12% fuel it would be a good reason to ask about fuel. In terms of souls on board they need to know how many they will be looking for if it does crash. So yes they are both very important!
 
889091
Posts: 595
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:56 pm

Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Sun Jul 04, 2021 6:59 am

I noticed 2 different voices from the crew of 810.

Why did the PF feel the need to take over comms towards the end? Of did they swap roles, similar to what Sully did when he said, "my aircraft"?
 
rbavfan
Posts: 4075
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Sun Jul 04, 2021 8:02 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
If DEF is found to be the culprit, maybe the FAA will finally ban it’s use in airport vehicles and anywhere in the jet fuel supply chain. There’s been more than a few DEF-related engine failures in GA, the FAA has been turning a blind eye to.


Your the first message I see mentioning DEF. No reports I have seen have indicated it is an issue here. Please pose where your info that it could be related comes from. Otherwise it is a unsubstantiated rumor that just interferes with the facts of this crash. You tlak as If you have information about this. If so you are supposed to post a link about why this is associated with the incident. Per Forum rules.
 
rbavfan
Posts: 4075
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Sun Jul 04, 2021 8:08 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
btfarrwm wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Here’s a start,

https://www.nata.aero/assets/Site_18/fi ... _23_19.pdf

More details,

https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Die ... Fluid_(DEF)_as_a_Fuel_Contaminant

Two outcomes.

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... -citations

It’s a known problem, but hasn’t yet brought down a headline accident.



Both of those contamination events involved contamination with DEF in an anti-icing additive in the fuel and not the fuel itself. Do they even add anti-icing additives for short hop flights around Hawaii?


The problem it is accidentally gets put into the PRIST tank instead of the DEF tank. Those are only cases, I believe there’s been others. Then, the issue is whether the fueler added on request or by accident. It’s gonna kill somebody by accident. The safety solution is to eliminate a known hazard, not put signs up in the hope they get heeded—eliminate the possibility.


Problem is this is note noted to have anthing to do with the accident we are talking about and it confuses people into modified conversations of something no athority has notes so far in a new event. It's like saying I hear a guy broke in and shut off the engines. It has no bearing unless there is provable data that it could be involved. Stop promoting a theory before and facts are posted.
 
rbavfan
Posts: 4075
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Sun Jul 04, 2021 8:14 am

nine4nine wrote:
DLASFlyer wrote:
nine4nine wrote:
It’s been daylight in Hawaii for a few hours. How is there no footage of debris or possible plane still afloat? I’ve scoured the net and Hawaiian news outlets and nothing.


Probably means it sank while still dark.



Was just curious. The Miracle on the Hudson USAirways 320 stayed buoyant for sometime and that was in fresh water. Was curious if the plane was still intact floating on the surface with more buoyant sea water or if the plane perhaps broke up upon impact leaving any floating debris.


It was also still water compared to waters off the Hawaiian Islands.
 
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Aesma
Posts: 15327
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Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Sun Jul 04, 2021 8:18 am

GZM1 wrote:
When pilots decide to shut down an engine-the experts said on the aftermath of BMA accident in January 1989- they should leave it running at 10% of its power in case they decide to restart it, otherwise they won’t be able to.


If a shut down is needed, not shutting it down might cause millions of dollars of additional damage.

The only real consideration is to shut down the correct one.
 
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Aesma
Posts: 15327
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Sun Jul 04, 2021 8:26 am

flyXJT wrote:
Obviously now that the threat is known a lot of providers have put in safeguards such as adding witnesses, lock and keys, and segregation of fluids. Jet engines can burn horrifically contaminated fuel and still not fail - DEF is unique that in trace amounts it causes the crystallization and eventual starvation of the engines. We are talking about just a few ounces in thousands of gallons of clean fuel.


The long term solution will be electric trucks. But I was wondering, a 55 gallons DEF tank on a truck that doesn't make that many miles should last at least a couple of weeks shouldn't it ? Why the need to "top it up" constantly ?
 
rbavfan
Posts: 4075
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Sun Jul 04, 2021 8:33 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Ceamajay wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
If it’s not fuel contamination, there aren’t many other explanations for both engines failing.


I agree that an EPA exemption for DEF in airside airport vehicles makes a great deal of sense, at the very least until better safeguards and practices can be developed to avoid cross-contamination. Every dock hand at every marina knows not to put water into a fuel tank or fuel into a water tank, but as long as boats have two holes about the same size, every once in a while some poor schmuck in a hurry is going to put the wrong hose in the wrong hole. And they're usually not doing it in Chicago during a blizzard.

That being said, in this particular incident, my money is on our feathered friends. God willing, the pilots will have a full recovery and can tell the NTSB which one of us was right.


Not a lot of large birds in Hawaii, no geese, either.


Sea Gulls and they are near the airports as well. Mind you at T-O they would have known if they hit one.
 
TUGMASTER
Posts: 1590
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2004 8:56 pm

Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Sun Jul 04, 2021 9:11 am

This thread quickly goes off track with bickering…..
Those guys must’ve demonstrated some good airmanship to put that aircraft down on the drink in the middle of the night.
Very very lucky to get out of an airliner hitting the water at over 100 mph .
Good luck with their recovery’s.
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