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Shakinthefat
Posts: 67
Joined: Thu May 07, 2020 6:56 pm

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Tue Jul 06, 2021 1:33 am

Gasman wrote:
Nightmare scenario.

Fuel contamination, or incorrect engine shut down would have to be high on the list of possibilities.

Gasman is spot on. Low altitude engine failure early AM is startling and performance dwindling, there would be a lot of confusion in the cockpit.
 
DLASFlyer
Posts: 353
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 4:06 pm

Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Tue Jul 06, 2021 2:08 am

Second interview with the Coast Guard (rescue swimmer and hoist operator) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZJPRAkyIRw

Makes it sound like the pilots are really lucky to be alive.
 
F9Animal
Posts: 4606
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:13 am

Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Tue Jul 06, 2021 2:12 am

LCDFlight wrote:
Is there any report of the sea state when the put the 737 in? Was it a help or a hindrance? Could they see the water surface, given that it was nighttime? Would the landing lights do an adequate job, or was there moonlight?

About ATC, I think she needs to know souls and fuel for many basic reasons. SAR needs to know how many targets they have. Fire dept needs to know how much jet fuel is coming their way, I am just surmising it could affect their fire tactics.


Just an opinion, as there are no reports out about this.... Dark and fairly cloudy, with moderate waves. The landing lights might have helped, but I am gonna say the airmanship was pretty amazing. Unfortunately, from what it sounds like, they didn't have any options and much altitude to play with. Incredible they were able to swim away from that. But I'm sure the landing lights for example would have helped a little?
 
superjeff
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Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Tue Jul 06, 2021 2:41 am

DIRECTFLT wrote:
btfarrwm wrote:
Both of those contamination events involved contamination with DEF in an anti-icing additive in the fuel and not the fuel itself. Do they even add anti-icing additives for short hop flights around Hawaii?


Speaking of a short hop flight, I haven't read yet what the destination of Transair Flight 810 was.


Kahului, Maui (OGG), which is just over 100 miles away from HNL. About. 20 minutes in the air.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Tue Jul 06, 2021 2:45 am

superjeff wrote:
DIRECTFLT wrote:
btfarrwm wrote:
Both of those contamination events involved contamination with DEF in an anti-icing additive in the fuel and not the fuel itself. Do they even add anti-icing additives for short hop flights around Hawaii?


Speaking of a short hop flight, I haven't read yet what the destination of Transair Flight 810 was.


Kahului, Maui (OGG), which is just over 100 miles away from HNL. About. 20 minutes in the air.


Half the journey from HNL to OGG is departure taxi at HNL.
 
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zeke
Posts: 16318
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Tue Jul 06, 2021 2:50 am

Flaps wrote:
The helicopter was not likely sitting on the pad, engines running and ready to go. While it would have fueled, prepped and ready, the crew would have to scramble, board, go through their startup and head to the crash site. Probably a 10-15 minute process before initiation of the search itself. By then the plane would have sunk but for random smaller pieces of debris.
The boat on the other hand (speculation) may have already been out on patrol and close to the crash location to start with. Who says the boat just didn't happen to be at the right place and right time to quickly come across their survivor. Likewise the helicopter may not have been in an ideal spot at the start of their search to quickly pickup their survivor. It was dark, over water with swells. There may have been many pieces of debris to examine.

You seem to have an awful high and mighty attitude toward the rescuers for someone who sees the world from the perspective of a computer operator observing the world safely from 37K feet. Particularly when judging highly trained and skilled professionals who regularly pluck people from oceans under all types of conditions for a living.


This is the timeline

01:40 USGC informed of the pending crash (aircraft at about 600 ft at this time)
01:45 last ADS-B contact at 50’
02:51 first pilot picked up by HFD boat
02:57 second pilot picked up by USCG helicopter

The boat didn’t happen to be in the area, “took approximately 30 to 40 minutes to get to the scene”

“The Hawaii Department of Transportation’s Aircraft Rescue Fire Fighting boat also responded and took approximately 30 to 40 minutes to get to the scene as they navigated through a debris field which was approximately 1.25 miles wide.

HFD spokesman Capt. Malcolm Medrano said the fire department’s Air 3 helicopter assisted as the ARFF boat crew rescued one of the pilots, 50, from the water at 2:51 a.m.

The rescue boat took him to the end of Lagoon Drive where Emergency Medical Services personnel treated him for a head injury and multiple lacerations. He was then taken in serious condition to Queen’s Medical Center.

At about 2:57 a.m., the Coast Guard’s Dolphin helicopter hoisted the other pilot, 58, out of the ocean and airlifted him to Queen’s.”

From https://www.staradvertiser.com/2021/07/ ... s-rescued/

Photo of HFD crew and boat that were involved in the rescue https://twitter.com/dothawaii/status/14 ... 34240?s=21

Please have a look at the video in this report, in the lower left hand side as the show the crash areas the next day looking back towards shore you can see the large white building in the left hand side near the beach, that is the hanger of USCG Barbers Point on Coral Sea Road where the helicopter came from, just next to it is the threshold of runway 29 at Kalaeloa Airport.

From https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2021/07/0 ... h-2-board/
 
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Moose135
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Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Tue Jul 06, 2021 3:57 am

ATCJesus wrote:
Nobody in the US uses mayday or pan pan usually unless they are a foreign pilot or maybe a GA pilot.


I used it a time or two in my Air Force days...

atcdan wrote:
One last point, as a controller even in the US, please use MAYDAY or PAN if you have an emergency that will require special handling. Telling us “I have an engine problem” doesn’t convey the seriousness to us or the other pilots on frequency.


The passengers of Avianca 52 would have been better served if that crew had used the word MAYDAY rather than telling the controller they were running out of fuel.
 
KiloEchoVictor
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Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Tue Jul 06, 2021 8:29 am

According to HawaiiNewsNow, both pilots have been discharged.

The pilot who was critically injured has been discharged from the hospital, sources told Hawaii News Now on Monday.

The other pilot was treated for a head injury and lacerations and also appears to be out of the hospital.

https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2021/07/05/source-pilot-critically-injured-cargo-plane-crash-off-kalaeloa-released-hospital/
 
DaCubbyBearBar
Posts: 344
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Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Tue Jul 06, 2021 9:23 am

I may have missed it, but when are they going to go get the boxes off the plane? That should put a lot of the mystery to rest, I hope.
 
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zeke
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Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Tue Jul 06, 2021 10:14 am

KiloEchoVictor wrote:
According to HawaiiNewsNow, both pilots have been discharged.

The pilot who was critically injured has been discharged from the hospital, sources told Hawaii News Now on Monday.

The other pilot was treated for a head injury and lacerations and also appears to be out of the hospital.

https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2021/07/05/source-pilot-critically-injured-cargo-plane-crash-off-kalaeloa-released-hospital/


Best news I have heard all day thank you.
 
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Aquila3
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Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Tue Jul 06, 2021 10:52 am

DaCubbyBearBar wrote:
I may have missed it, but when are they going to go get the boxes off the plane? That should put a lot of the mystery to rest, I hope.

Well, with both the pilots surviving and hopefully getting better there should not be much mistery.
I wonder it fishing out the boxes is worth the effort at all.
It may make more sense to recover most of the wreckage for environmental protection, with or without the recorders.
I think a lot will depend on
the actual depth of the crash site.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Tue Jul 06, 2021 11:11 am

Aquila3 wrote:
DaCubbyBearBar wrote:
I may have missed it, but when are they going to go get the boxes off the plane? That should put a lot of the mystery to rest, I hope.

Well, with both the pilots surviving and hopefully getting better there should not be much mistery.
I wonder it fishing out the boxes is worth the effort at all.
It may make more sense to recover most of the wreckage for environmental protection, with or without the recorders.
I think a lot will depend on
the actual depth of the crash site.


NTSB said the plane is in 150-350 feet of water and may be resting partially on a ledge. That may make the salvage difficult if it slides off to somewhere far deeper.
 
zanl188
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Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:00 pm

Every reference I’ve seen regarding “an hour for USCG helo to arrive” has measured that hour from time of 737 takeoff, not time of ditching.

What was Coast Guards planned response time? (Time from notification to airborne)
 
HNLPointShoot
Posts: 241
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:32 pm

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:10 pm

Flaps wrote:
The helicopter was not likely sitting on the pad, engines running and ready to go. While it would have fueled, prepped and ready, the crew would have to scramble, board, go through their startup and head to the crash site. Probably a 10-15 minute process before initiation of the search itself. By then the plane would have sunk but for random smaller pieces of debris.
The boat on the other hand (speculation) may have already been out on patrol and close to the crash location to start with. Who says the boat just didn't happen to be at the right place and right time to quickly come across their survivor. Likewise the helicopter may not have been in an ideal spot at the start of their search to quickly pickup their survivor. It was dark, over water with swells. There may have been many pieces of debris to examine.


HFD doesn't do routine ocean patrols; they would've rolled one or both of their Rescue units upon being contacted by HNL ATC. HNL ARFF would've also rolled their boat upon being notified that the aircraft was going into the water.

Nonetheless, taking 60 minutes to get on-scene and locate both pilots is a remarkably short time under the circumstances. Even though ATC would've had a starting point to work with (last radar contact with the aircraft), the wreckage likely drifted a significant distance (as much as a half-mile to a mile in 30 minutes) between the wind and the swells, which would in turn easily mean that the rescuers were looking for a plane somewhere in a square mile of ocean at night with little (if any) moonlight. It's also possible that HFD had an easier time locating the wreckage because it would've been silhouetted by the lights on land in Kapolei and ʻEwa Beach, while the Coast Guard would be trying to pick out wreckage and people from the swells on their night-vision equipment.
 
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CrewBunk
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Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:11 pm

Spaceship wrote:
Pretty sure the captain took the radio at the last minutes


With both engines failed so no electrical power available from both engine electrical generators, the aircraft will be either powered by the APU or the Battery. With the aircraft being inflight a lot of load shedding done so now they are down to essential services and one of those critical system is VHF#1 or the Captains radio.

That's why the Captain was on the radio because the first officers radio isn't working.

On the Boeing 737-200 you only get 20mins of standby power from the battery if all other generators fail (APU, Engines x 2)

When I flew that aircraft 20+ years ago, “Standby Power Configuration” set things up so that only one could fly (instruments) and only one could communicate, (radio control panel on the other side). However, the PF could talk on the radios with his PTT, he just had to use what the PM had set up.

The interesting thing is that who did what varied by option when the aircraft was built.

At Canadian Airlines, the 737-200s were either ex Pacific Western which was one way or ex CPAir which was the other. (Plus about 10 outliers). A part of SOPs was to pull out “the card” when you sat down, and figured out what you had that day.

This aircraft was exPWA, which had the Captain's instruments powered, with the F/O’s radio control panel powered. And yes, 20 minutes was a good working guideline, even though the manual said 30 minutes. I would not have wanted to be at minute 25, 4 miles from the threshold on an ILS in minimum conditions. (As always was the case in the simulator).
 
btfarrwm
Posts: 150
Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 5:50 am

Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:29 pm

Aquila3 wrote:
DaCubbyBearBar wrote:
I may have missed it, but when are they going to go get the boxes off the plane? That should put a lot of the mystery to rest, I hope.

Well, with both the pilots surviving and hopefully getting better there should not be much mistery.
I wonder it fishing out the boxes is worth the effort at all.
It may make more sense to recover most of the wreckage for environmental protection, with or without the recorders.
I think a lot will depend on
the actual depth of the crash site.


I think it's a foregone conclusion that the NTSB will retrieve the recorders. The pilots both may have potentially suffered head injuries and their recall of events and their actions might not be accurate.
 
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zeke
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Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:42 pm

zanl188 wrote:
Every reference I’ve seen regarding “an hour for USCG helo to arrive” has measured that hour from time of 737 takeoff, not time of ditching.

What was Coast Guards planned response time? (Time from notification to airborne)


The USCG have said in numerous reports they were notified around 01:40, where the aircraft was according to ADS-B descending through about 600 ft before ditching. The USCG helicopter picked up the second pilot at 02:57 according to the report I provided above.
 
RoyalBrunei757
Posts: 530
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:18 am

Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Tue Jul 06, 2021 2:16 pm

Must be errie feeling to see a big airplane down 350 feet below the sea.......they might only send ROV to retrieve the blackbox and leave the plane as it is as artificial reef.....
 
rampbro
Posts: 575
Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:00 am

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Tue Jul 06, 2021 3:15 pm

bikerthai wrote:
The old girl had a long and productive life. Two bad they will crane her up for an investigation instead of let her lie in peace and be a playground for the fishes.

bt


Skydrol my dude. I believe Hawaii is a tourism destination so they might want to deal with that......
 
wirkey
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Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Tue Jul 06, 2021 5:15 pm

How come nobody asked the obvious question: is it a write-off? :duck:
 
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ER757
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Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Tue Jul 06, 2021 5:41 pm

RoyalBrunei757 wrote:
Must be errie feeling to see a big airplane down 350 feet below the sea.......they might only send ROV to retrieve the blackbox and leave the plane as it is as artificial reef.....

350 feet is pretty deep for an artificial reef, not a lot of recreational divers getting down that far, and certainly no snorkelers. NTSB should get good info from the pilots as they seem to be in fairly good shape but the FDR will be important to have regardless. I'd think they'd want to salvage the wreckage to help in the investigation as well - a lot can be determined by looking at the engines - they might also want to look at as much of the fuel system as possible too.
 
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jscottwomack
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Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Tue Jul 06, 2021 5:51 pm

wirkey wrote:
How come nobody asked the obvious question: is it a write-off? :duck:


:rotfl:
 
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barney captain
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Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Tue Jul 06, 2021 6:49 pm

Shakinthefat wrote:
Gasman wrote:
Nightmare scenario.

Fuel contamination, or incorrect engine shut down would have to be high on the list of possibilities.

Gasman is spot on. Low altitude engine failure early AM is startling and performance dwindling, there would be a lot of confusion in the cockpit.


Except the crew specifically stated they had lost one engine, and the other was running hot and likely to fail as well.
 
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barney captain
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Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Tue Jul 06, 2021 6:50 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
superjeff wrote:
DIRECTFLT wrote:

Speaking of a short hop flight, I haven't read yet what the destination of Transair Flight 810 was.


Kahului, Maui (OGG), which is just over 100 miles away from HNL. About. 20 minutes in the air.


Half the journey from HNL to OGG is departure taxi at HNL.


Not if you take 8L at Lima ;)
 
ZaphodHarkonnen
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Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Tue Jul 06, 2021 10:25 pm

Good to hear that the pilots have been discharged.

On the topic of aircraft recovery. I expect people are running the numbers right now. They'll need to balance a whole bunch of things. Given the depth and a known rate of leakage, it may be best to just leave it on the sea floor. With a slow rate of hazmat leakage the environmental damage may be minimal as the hazmat gets diluted to safe levels in the water. Hopefully they'll be including local government, experts, and local indigenous groups in the decisions too. Remember there's a danger to life to recover stuff from this depth, it isn't just a simple cost decision.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Tue Jul 06, 2021 11:17 pm

barney captain wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
superjeff wrote:

Kahului, Maui (OGG), which is just over 100 miles away from HNL. About. 20 minutes in the air.


Half the journey from HNL to OGG is departure taxi at HNL.


Not if you take 8L at Lima ;)


:lol: That would certainly make a difference. In all my interisland flights as a pax it has always been Alpha.
 
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william
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Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Wed Jul 07, 2021 12:57 am

RoyalBrunei757 wrote:
Must be errie feeling to see a big airplane down 350 feet below the sea.......they might only send ROV to retrieve the blackbox and leave the plane as it is as artificial reef.....


Airport 77
 
Shakinthefat
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Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Wed Jul 07, 2021 1:41 am

barney captain wrote:
Shakinthefat wrote:
Gasman wrote:
Nightmare scenario.

Fuel contamination, or incorrect engine shut down would have to be high on the list of possibilities.

Gasman is spot on. Low altitude engine failure early AM is startling and performance dwindling, there would be a lot of confusion in the cockpit.


Except the crew specifically stated they had lost one engine, and the other was running hot and likely to fail as well.

How about the possibility of shutting down the good engine accidentally and the bad engine was running hot and it failed. I’ve seen this happen in simulators a few times by pilots in a hurry and not confirming correct fuel lever......just saying
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Wed Jul 07, 2021 1:47 am

Shakinthefat wrote:
barney captain wrote:
Shakinthefat wrote:
Gasman is spot on. Low altitude engine failure early AM is startling and performance dwindling, there would be a lot of confusion in the cockpit.


Except the crew specifically stated they had lost one engine, and the other was running hot and likely to fail as well.

How about the possibility of shutting down the good engine accidentally and the bad engine was running hot and it failed. I’ve seen this happen in simulators a few times by pilots in a hurry and not confirming correct fuel lever......just saying


Certainly a possibility. The NTSB will have to decide whether hauling up the wreckage is worth it to discover the truth.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Wed Jul 07, 2021 1:51 am

Shakinthefat wrote:
barney captain wrote:
Shakinthefat wrote:
Gasman is spot on. Low altitude engine failure early AM is startling and performance dwindling, there would be a lot of confusion in the cockpit.


Except the crew specifically stated they had lost one engine, and the other was running hot and likely to fail as well.

How about the possibility of shutting down the good engine accidentally and the bad engine was running hot and it failed. I’ve seen this happen in simulators a few times by pilots in a hurry and not confirming correct fuel lever......just saying


My money's on this scenario. There just aren't that many birds in Hawaii that are active at 0100, only owls really, and they don't flock during breeding season, which is now.
 
MrBretz
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Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Wed Jul 07, 2021 2:16 am

Aaron747, I have seen solitary owls flying at night in Hawaii. But it is generally a single bird on a fairly isolated road. I can’t imagine them being near HNL but maybe someone can correct me. Maybe the engines ingested sea gulls?
 
zanl188
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Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Wed Jul 07, 2021 2:19 am

zeke wrote:
zanl188 wrote:
Every reference I’ve seen regarding “an hour for USCG helo to arrive” has measured that hour from time of 737 takeoff, not time of ditching.

What was Coast Guards planned response time? (Time from notification to airborne)


The USCG have said in numerous reports they were notified around 01:40, where the aircraft was according to ADS-B descending through about 600 ft before ditching. The USCG helicopter picked up the second pilot at 02:57 according to the report I provided above.


An hour and 17 minutes seems unlikely to me.

Also Coast Guard helo made their pickup after first evaluating the other pilot & determining that he could wait. Apparently no boats on scene at the time.

Coast Guard crew interview with local TV station:

https://youtu.be/z7s-yxH2xHQ
Last edited by zanl188 on Wed Jul 07, 2021 2:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
zanl188
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Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Wed Jul 07, 2021 2:46 am

zeke wrote:

01:40 USGC informed of the pending crash (aircraft at about 600 ft at this time)
01:45 last ADS-B contact at 50’
02:51 first pilot picked up by HFD boat
02:57 second pilot picked up by USCG helicopter

/


Given statement of Coast Guard helo crew this timeline appears implausible at worst or misinterpreted at best.
 
bluecrew
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Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Wed Jul 07, 2021 2:58 am

Aaron747 wrote:
Shakinthefat wrote:
barney captain wrote:

Except the crew specifically stated they had lost one engine, and the other was running hot and likely to fail as well.

How about the possibility of shutting down the good engine accidentally and the bad engine was running hot and it failed. I’ve seen this happen in simulators a few times by pilots in a hurry and not confirming correct fuel lever......just saying


My money's on this scenario. There just aren't that many birds in Hawaii that are active at 0100, only owls really, and they don't flock during breeding season, which is now.

I don't know, I'm fully in the fuel starvation camp.

Just sounds too much like classic contaminated fuel. Right or left engine sucks up enough of it first and fails, second one kicks around for about ten more minutes burning real funky, real real hot or at low RPM, and if you give it a little too much power you exceed the EGT limits. Timeline checks too, might notice little EGT anomalies at low power on the ground or in the takeoff roll, but then one chunks it right after rotation.

That said, the pedestal is quite tiny, and the fuel cutoff switches aren't huge either. Can easily see someone cutting the wrong engine, but it sounds to me from the ATC recording that they might have been dealing with one engine going crazy right on the turn out of HNL, trying to troubleshoot that situation and they shut that one down, only to notice their EPR barely hanging on with the other engine way in the red on EGT. It would certainly account for the 2 minute period or so where they had pretty poor SA and radio comms. The timeline, radio comms, etc., all point to a serious issue with both engines to me, and in this phase of flight with an old, but tested and remarkably reliable, engine design, I'd be looking first and foremost at the fuel system and what the hell had been put in it.

Edit: Also just listened to it again, they reported they had lost one engine, and the other "was not running too good," even just from the language they're using and the way they're describing it, it doesn't sound like the wrong engine getting pulled to me
 
DaCubbyBearBar
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Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Wed Jul 07, 2021 3:31 am

wirkey wrote:
How come nobody asked the obvious question: is it a write-off? :duck:

I think we waited to make sure the pilots survived??
 
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zeke
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Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Wed Jul 07, 2021 4:24 am

zanl188 wrote:
An hour and 17 minutes seems unlikely to me.

Also Coast Guard helo made their pickup after first evaluating the other pilot & determining that he could wait. Apparently no boats on scene at the time.

Coast Guard crew interview with local TV station:

https://youtu.be/z7s-yxH2xHQ


From the official USCG news release https://content.govdelivery.com/account ... ns/2e69d6a

“ At 1:40 a.m., Coast Guard Joint Rescue Coordination Center (JRCC) Honolulu watchstanders received a report from Honolulu Air Traffic Control stating the Boeing 737 had downed off shore.”

The USCG in their official release also states the rescue of both pilots was not performed by the USCG helicopter

“ Once on scene the Dolphin aircrew was able to rescue one of the people on board while the Honolulu Fire Department rescue boat recovered the other. Both people were then brought to awaiting medical services on Oahu.”

The video of the helicopter hoist also clearly shows the HFD boat in the same frame

https://www.dvidshub.net/video/805809/c ... t-off-oahu

I posed this above

This is the timeline

01:40 USGC informed of the pending crash (aircraft at about 600 ft at this time)
01:45 last ADS-B contact at 50’
02:51 first pilot picked up by HFD boat
02:57 second pilot picked up by USCG helicopter

The boat didn’t happen to be in the area, “took approximately 30 to 40 minutes to get to the scene”

“The Hawaii Department of Transportation’s Aircraft Rescue Fire Fighting boat also responded and took approximately 30 to 40 minutes to get to the scene as they navigated through a debris field which was approximately 1.25 miles wide.

HFD spokesman Capt. Malcolm Medrano said the fire department’s Air 3 helicopter assisted as the ARFF boat crew rescued one of the pilots, 50, from the water at 2:51 a.m.

The rescue boat took him to the end of Lagoon Drive where Emergency Medical Services personnel treated him for a head injury and multiple lacerations. He was then taken in serious condition to Queen’s Medical Center.

At about 2:57 a.m., the Coast Guard’s Dolphin helicopter hoisted the other pilot, 58, out of the ocean and airlifted him to Queen’s.”

From https://www.staradvertiser.com/2021/07/ ... s-rescued/

Photo of HFD crew and boat that were involved in the rescue https://twitter.com/dothawaii/status/14 ... 34240?s=21
 
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Aaron747
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Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Wed Jul 07, 2021 5:34 am

bluecrew wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Shakinthefat wrote:
How about the possibility of shutting down the good engine accidentally and the bad engine was running hot and it failed. I’ve seen this happen in simulators a few times by pilots in a hurry and not confirming correct fuel lever......just saying


My money's on this scenario. There just aren't that many birds in Hawaii that are active at 0100, only owls really, and they don't flock during breeding season, which is now.

I don't know, I'm fully in the fuel starvation camp.

Just sounds too much like classic contaminated fuel. Right or left engine sucks up enough of it first and fails, second one kicks around for about ten more minutes burning real funky, real real hot or at low RPM, and if you give it a little too much power you exceed the EGT limits. Timeline checks too, might notice little EGT anomalies at low power on the ground or in the takeoff roll, but then one chunks it right after rotation.

That said, the pedestal is quite tiny, and the fuel cutoff switches aren't huge either. Can easily see someone cutting the wrong engine, but it sounds to me from the ATC recording that they might have been dealing with one engine going crazy right on the turn out of HNL, trying to troubleshoot that situation and they shut that one down, only to notice their EPR barely hanging on with the other engine way in the red on EGT. It would certainly account for the 2 minute period or so where they had pretty poor SA and radio comms. The timeline, radio comms, etc., all point to a serious issue with both engines to me, and in this phase of flight with an old, but tested and remarkably reliable, engine design, I'd be looking first and foremost at the fuel system and what the hell had been put in it.

Edit: Also just listened to it again, they reported they had lost one engine, and the other "was not running too good," even just from the language they're using and the way they're describing it, it doesn't sound like the wrong engine getting pulled to me


My apologies, I missed the part in the ATC exchange where they said the other wasn't running too good. It's still not impossible that they would transmit that after shutting down the wrong one, but makes it more unlikely.
 
bluecrew
Posts: 91
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2014 3:13 am

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Wed Jul 07, 2021 7:01 am

Aaron747 wrote:
bluecrew wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

My money's on this scenario. There just aren't that many birds in Hawaii that are active at 0100, only owls really, and they don't flock during breeding season, which is now.

Edit: Also just listened to it again, they reported they had lost one engine, and the other "was not running too good," even just from the language they're using and the way they're describing it, it doesn't sound like the wrong engine getting pulled to me


My apologies, I missed the part in the ATC exchange where they said the other wasn't running too good. It's still not impossible that they would transmit that after shutting down the wrong one, but makes it more unlikely.

No worries, it took a few different dissections of the recordings to even call that out to me.

I agree, I find it much less likely they had that sort of issue. It could happen, but to me, it seems a harder sell than a fuel contamination issue. The FO was pretty clear about the engine issues after some of the audio had been cleaned up from the LiveATC feed. Despite the SA and radio issues, they seemed fairly on top of it, and I didn't really hear anything indicating engine confusion.

Seems like a contaminant issue to me, something caused those beautiful classic loud engines to seize and it's probably on their fuel provider. I'm prepared to be proven wrong by this "Hawaiian Goose" though.
 
btfarrwm
Posts: 150
Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 5:50 am

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Wed Jul 07, 2021 1:55 pm

bluecrew wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
bluecrew wrote:
Edit: Also just listened to it again, they reported they had lost one engine, and the other "was not running too good," even just from the language they're using and the way they're describing it, it doesn't sound like the wrong engine getting pulled to me


My apologies, I missed the part in the ATC exchange where they said the other wasn't running too good. It's still not impossible that they would transmit that after shutting down the wrong one, but makes it more unlikely.

No worries, it took a few different dissections of the recordings to even call that out to me.

I agree, I find it much less likely they had that sort of issue. It could happen, but to me, it seems a harder sell than a fuel contamination issue. The FO was pretty clear about the engine issues after some of the audio had been cleaned up from the LiveATC feed. Despite the SA and radio issues, they seemed fairly on top of it, and I didn't really hear anything indicating engine confusion.

Seems like a contaminant issue to me, something caused those beautiful classic loud engines to seize and it's probably on their fuel provider. I'm prepared to be proven wrong by this "Hawaiian Goose" though.



Did any other departing flights from HNL have issues with fuel that night? What are some scenarios where a fuel contamination event would only effect one flight departing from a busy airport?
 
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Revelation
Posts: 26563
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Wed Jul 07, 2021 3:50 pm

DLASFlyer wrote:
Second interview with the Coast Guard (rescue swimmer and hoist operator) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZJPRAkyIRw

Makes it sound like the pilots are really lucky to be alive.

People should watch this video, it features the swimmer who obviously knows what went on, he was in the middle of it all.

USCG arrives on the scene. The swimmer enters the water and approaches the first victim. He's on top of floating debris including a cargo net, and not at immediate risk. He notices the second victim is on a piece of the aircraft that just sank and now that victim is struggling. He approaches the second victim and works with the helo crew to get him hoisted aboard. He then returns to the water, sees the boat is in the vicinity, and he swims the first victim over to the boat and helps him get aboard.

It feels like USCG did everything they were trained to do quite effectively.
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 15673
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Wed Jul 07, 2021 4:11 pm

Revelation wrote:
DLASFlyer wrote:
Second interview with the Coast Guard (rescue swimmer and hoist operator) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZJPRAkyIRw

Makes it sound like the pilots are really lucky to be alive.

People should watch this video, it features the swimmer who obviously knows what went on, he was in the middle of it all.

USCG arrives on the scene. The swimmer enters the water and approaches the first victim. He's on top of floating debris including a cargo net, and not at immediate risk. He notices the second victim is on a piece of the aircraft that just sank and now that victim is struggling. He approaches the second victim and works with the helo crew to get him hoisted aboard. He then returns to the water, sees the boat is in the vicinity, and he swims the first victim over to the boat and helps him get aboard.

It feels like USCG did everything they were trained to do quite effectively.


They were awesome, as usual. One of the least-mentioned of all US forces, but supremely capable and it's no joke mounting 100% of your capability at sea.
 
DLASFlyer
Posts: 353
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 4:06 pm

Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Wed Jul 07, 2021 5:39 pm

Revelation wrote:
DLASFlyer wrote:
Second interview with the Coast Guard (rescue swimmer and hoist operator) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZJPRAkyIRw

Makes it sound like the pilots are really lucky to be alive.

People should watch this video, it features the swimmer who obviously knows what went on, he was in the middle of it all.

USCG arrives on the scene. The swimmer enters the water and approaches the first victim. He's on top of floating debris including a cargo net, and not at immediate risk. He notices the second victim is on a piece of the aircraft that just sank and now that victim is struggling. He approaches the second victim and works with the helo crew to get him hoisted aboard. He then returns to the water, sees the boat is in the vicinity, and he swims the first victim over to the boat and helps him get aboard.

It feels like USCG did everything they were trained to do quite effectively.


Totally. The amazing thing is two of the four rescuers interviewed had never done a real life rescue before.
 
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JetBuddy
Posts: 2702
Joined: Wed Dec 25, 2013 1:04 am

Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Wed Jul 07, 2021 6:05 pm

DLASFlyer wrote:
Revelation wrote:
DLASFlyer wrote:
Second interview with the Coast Guard (rescue swimmer and hoist operator) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZJPRAkyIRw

Makes it sound like the pilots are really lucky to be alive.

People should watch this video, it features the swimmer who obviously knows what went on, he was in the middle of it all.

USCG arrives on the scene. The swimmer enters the water and approaches the first victim. He's on top of floating debris including a cargo net, and not at immediate risk. He notices the second victim is on a piece of the aircraft that just sank and now that victim is struggling. He approaches the second victim and works with the helo crew to get him hoisted aboard. He then returns to the water, sees the boat is in the vicinity, and he swims the first victim over to the boat and helps him get aboard.

It feels like USCG did everything they were trained to do quite effectively.


Totally. The amazing thing is two of the four rescuers interviewed had never done a real life rescue before.


All four of them are really impressive. They have every right to be thrilled and proud of themselves. This is exactly what they're training for. I have such respect for them.
 
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airportugal310
Posts: 3729
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2004 12:49 pm

Re: 737 Cargo in water at HNL

Wed Jul 07, 2021 6:56 pm

btfarrwm wrote:
bluecrew wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

My apologies, I missed the part in the ATC exchange where they said the other wasn't running too good. It's still not impossible that they would transmit that after shutting down the wrong one, but makes it more unlikely.

No worries, it took a few different dissections of the recordings to even call that out to me.

I agree, I find it much less likely they had that sort of issue. It could happen, but to me, it seems a harder sell than a fuel contamination issue. The FO was pretty clear about the engine issues after some of the audio had been cleaned up from the LiveATC feed. Despite the SA and radio issues, they seemed fairly on top of it, and I didn't really hear anything indicating engine confusion.

Seems like a contaminant issue to me, something caused those beautiful classic loud engines to seize and it's probably on their fuel provider. I'm prepared to be proven wrong by this "Hawaiian Goose" though.



Did any other departing flights from HNL have issues with fuel that night? What are some scenarios where a fuel contamination event would only effect one flight departing from a busy airport?


Not a single flight that night or subsequent days thereafter had any fuel related issues (one only has to look at the amount of traffic transiting HNL these days). Transair fuels their own aircraft at HNL, so take that for what it's worth. Fuel contamination at (major) US airports is extremely unlikely given the sheer amount of testing and filtration it goes through on a DAILY basis at the fuel facilities themselves. This doesn't even take into account the filtration on the fueling vehicle or tanker...which is where one would want to start looking (!)
 
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SuseJ772
Posts: 1063
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:13 am

Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Thu Jul 08, 2021 1:44 pm

Revelation wrote:
DLASFlyer wrote:
Second interview with the Coast Guard (rescue swimmer and hoist operator) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZJPRAkyIRw

Makes it sound like the pilots are really lucky to be alive.

People should watch this video, it features the swimmer who obviously knows what went on, he was in the middle of it all.

USCG arrives on the scene. The swimmer enters the water and approaches the first victim. He's on top of floating debris including a cargo net, and not at immediate risk. He notices the second victim is on a piece of the aircraft that just sank and now that victim is struggling. He approaches the second victim and works with the helo crew to get him hoisted aboard. He then returns to the water, sees the boat is in the vicinity, and he swims the first victim over to the boat and helps him get aboard.

It feels like USCG did everything they were trained to do quite effectively.


This is why I was confused by the USCG timeline arguments made earlier by some. I watched this video (and the other interview) in its entirety on July 3rd. It was clear they went to the 1st, then the 2nd, and then only then realized the 1st now no longer had a flotation device (the tail) and was very close to drowning.

If one judges their first interaction when they pulled the 1st pilot out, they are missing a good chunk of the timeline.

I think the USCG did a great job and are under rated. I think what could have helped here was them being notified at the first sign of mayday and to start getting ready. I get that the US govt can’t keep everyone one on 24 hour HOT standby. But I think in this incident they likely could have had an additional 5 minutes if fully alerted at the moment of emergency declaration. But I don’t think ATC fully recognized what she had in the first moments.
 
DLASFlyer
Posts: 353
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 4:06 pm

Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Thu Jul 08, 2021 2:31 pm

How many times have we heard after accidents about controllers working too many frequencies at once? FAA promises changes, then nothing changes.
 
MO11
Posts: 1840
Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2017 5:07 pm

Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Thu Jul 08, 2021 5:07 pm

DLASFlyer wrote:
How many times have we heard after accidents about controllers working too many frequencies at once? FAA promises changes, then nothing changes.



In this case one controller, two airplanes. What's your point?
 
User avatar
barney captain
Posts: 2444
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 5:47 pm

Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Thu Jul 08, 2021 8:21 pm

MO11 wrote:
DLASFlyer wrote:
How many times have we heard after accidents about controllers working too many frequencies at once? FAA promises changes, then nothing changes.



In this case one controller, two airplanes. What's your point?



Two aircraft on that frequency. I believe she was working multiple freq's.
 
MatthewDB
Posts: 173
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:33 pm

Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Fri Jul 09, 2021 6:45 am

CrewBunk wrote:
It appears, listening to the link above, that as soon as they realized they were losing the second engine (and it wasn’t a “routine” engine failure) they were trying to get vectored back toward the field again. That request/clearance was delayed by the controller talking over them and being blocked by the other aircraft.

For those wondering why a checklist anyway, one has to understand that certain things in the cockpit have to be set up for a single engine landing. Otherwise you may be surprised by what doesn’t work on touchdown. More so with more advanced aircraft, but even the basic 737-200. If the Standby Power switch is not flipped some electrical functions will be lost on touchdown. Surprise!

With regard to starting the APU. You have to remember, with the loss of both engine driven generators, the ONLY electrical source is the battery. A new battery can be relied upon for approximately 30 minutes. Every APU start attempt reduces your battery life by 10 minutes!

We used to do Standby Power Approaches (battery only) in the simulator a lot. It was a real time critical exercise. The decision to start the APU was a tough one. But, on starting, your life got a lot easier. Problem is, the negative training, as in the simulator, the APU never started.


I thought the two batteries for the aircraft systems were in the equipment bay and the APU had a its own battery in the tail?
 
User avatar
CrewBunk
Posts: 251
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2017 3:12 am

Re: Updated: 737 Freighter ditches in water off HNL

Fri Jul 09, 2021 8:13 am

MatthewDB wrote:
I thought the two batteries for the aircraft systems were in the equipment bay and the APU had a its own battery in the tail?

Not when I flew 737-200s (including this particular aircraft) 20 years ago. The QRH even states that with the loss of both engine driven generators, an APU start should only be attempted once, and only below 25,000’ where the chance of starting is greater.

The electrical layout you describe sounds like something out of a more modern airframe. While there is a possibility that these aircraft have been reconfigured since I flew them, it sounds like a very expensive endeavour for such an old airplane.
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