Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
sxf24
Posts: 1249
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:22 pm

Re: Flair Airlines US Expansion

Fri Jul 16, 2021 12:15 pm

ThePointblank wrote:
yyztpa wrote:
At least one shareholder is concerned enough by expansion to sue both Flair and 777 Partners
https://biv.com/article/2021/07/lawsuit ... nsion-plan

The interest rate being reported for the loan from 777 Partners is very much of a concern; it's 18% on a loan of $140 million.

Flair is effectively paying credit card interest rates on $140 million.

This is going to drain Flair's coffers really quickly, and with the fares Flair is offering, one can easily do the math to see what sort of risk is involved here. If Flair can't get that loan rate down, or generate enough revenue to cover the loan interest, they will go bankrupt very quickly and passengers will be left stranded.

And if the other allegation that Flair never sought approval from the Canadian Transportation Agency for their 737 MAX leases, with the allegation that the lease structure could run afoul of Canadian ownership rules is true, that could also shut Flair down.


I don’t think dry leases require CTA approval, which makes the entire lawsuit questionable.
 
User avatar
gdg9
Posts: 1049
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 9:42 am

Re: Flair Airlines US Expansion

Fri Jul 16, 2021 12:48 pm

IceCream wrote:
Thenoflyzone wrote:
Burbank no longer listed as a new destination.

https://flights.flyflair.com/en-ca/us-routes


I still found it here:
https://flyflair.com/where-we-fly
That being said if they took it off the main page of the website that doesn't sound very good.


Its not showing on this link now either
 
User avatar
IceCream
Posts: 146
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:46 pm

Re: Flair Airlines US Expansion

Fri Jul 16, 2021 4:54 pm

Wneast wrote:
IceCream wrote:
Thenoflyzone wrote:
Burbank no longer listed as a new destination.

https://flights.flyflair.com/en-ca/us-routes


I still found it here:
https://flyflair.com/where-we-fly
That being said if they took it off the main page of the website that doesn't sound very good.

Yeah I saw in the Burbank thread someone posted the wrong places it’s not there anymore which isn’t surprising they probably couldn’t get the pre-clearance figured out


It looks like it's been removed from that link as well. That sounds like a possibility. Another reason I've heard is that a deal for the check-in space fell apart, so they don't actually have the check-in space needed.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 26645
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

Re: Flair Airlines US Expansion

Fri Jul 16, 2021 7:06 pm

Drafran wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:
Thenoflyzone wrote:
Burbank no longer listed as a new destination.

https://flights.flyflair.com/en-ca/us-routes


That wasn’t well thought out. I wonder if they will now pick LAX instead? The only other option is ONT - which is the cheaper choice but not a well known airport for Canadians. Kinda key when F8 will probably be around 90% Canada point-of-sale.


Not to mention that ONT feels light years away from anywhere anyone actually wants to visit in the LA metro area. Certainly nothing touristy. Rancho Cucamonga anyone?


I agree it's not a good choice, but ONT is just as close to Disneyland as LAX, and a much easier drive at that.
 
nine4nine
Posts: 800
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:44 pm

Re: Flair Airlines US Expansion

Fri Jul 16, 2021 8:34 pm

MAH4546 wrote:
Drafran wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:

That wasn’t well thought out. I wonder if they will now pick LAX instead? The only other option is ONT - which is the cheaper choice but not a well known airport for Canadians. Kinda key when F8 will probably be around 90% Canada point-of-sale.


Not to mention that ONT feels light years away from anywhere anyone actually wants to visit in the LA metro area. Certainly nothing touristy. Rancho Cucamonga anyone?


I agree it's not a good choice, but ONT is just as close to Disneyland as LAX, and a much easier drive at that.



ONT is a horrid option. Abysmal Traffic all hours and days of the week, smog, pungent smell of cow farms, and nothing tourist worthy in the vicinity. They will already be serving PSP just down the road so what would be the point. Areas of so-cal are an embarrassing representation of the state and leaving ONT property is one of those instances.
 
VX321
Posts: 113
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2014 8:53 pm

Re: Flair Airlines US Expansion

Sat Jul 17, 2021 1:43 am

The problem with choosing ONT for LA metro is that it might confuse a lot of Canadians who know of Ontario as one of their provinces.
 
Dominion301
Posts: 3028
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:48 pm

Re: Flair Airlines US Expansion

Sat Jul 17, 2021 4:33 am

VX321 wrote:
The problem with choosing ONT for LA metro is that it might confuse a lot of Canadians who know of Ontario as one of their provinces.


Good point. Our Sydney (YQY) has certainly fooled more than a few vacationers over the years into thinking they were going to SYD.
 
CFWAD
Posts: 132
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:36 pm

Re: Flair Airlines US Expansion

Sat Jul 17, 2021 12:17 pm

I remember as a kid watching the movie 'Volcano' and them saying they're sending hospital patients out of L.A. to Ontario. I thought... wow that is incredibly far! Haha! So I can see that happening..

Their only real chance is out of LAX. It could work given they seem upbeat to operate out of various secondary airports, post-covid and preventing people a connection in YEG/YYC/YVR. And to be fair, the only "leisure" carrier flying Canada-SoCal is WS.
AC, AA, AS, DL and UA really cater (fare-wise) to the upmarket and the Hollywood North business types. There is no, nor has been, any Transat or Sunwing in the SoCal marketplace compared to Canada East- Florida.
 
User avatar
Aresxerexade
Posts: 61
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:08 pm

Re: Flair Airlines US Expansion

Sat Jul 17, 2021 6:50 pm

True , from AA to AC/UA Star alliance to DL/WS and AS operations to and from California, the day to day business traffic is certainly addressed. There’s definitely room for someone like F8 , F9 , Breeze, Avelo, WN to address the price sensitive , holiday market to Canada.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 9881
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Flair Airlines US Expansion

Sat Jul 17, 2021 10:26 pm

Aresxerexade wrote:
True , from AA to AC/UA Star alliance to DL/WS and AS operations to and from California, the day to day business traffic is certainly addressed. There’s definitely room for someone like F8 , F9 , Breeze, Avelo, WN to address the price sensitive , holiday market to Canada.


Transborder traffic is heavily biased to originating in Canada. If you want xxx-LAX/SAN/PSP/PHX, Canadian carriers are going to have to fly most of it.
 
User avatar
IceCream
Posts: 146
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:46 pm

Re: Flair Airlines US Expansion

Mon Jul 26, 2021 9:44 pm

Looks like Flair removed all the US flights? Can't seem to find any in the bookings.
 
nkops
Posts: 2289
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 10:09 am

Re: Flair Airlines US Expansion

Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:10 pm

IceCream wrote:
Looks like Flair removed all the US flights? Can't seem to find any in the bookings.


I just checked their website and all the cities are there..
 
User avatar
IceCream
Posts: 146
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:46 pm

Re: Flair Airlines US Expansion

Tue Jul 27, 2021 12:55 am

nkops wrote:
IceCream wrote:
Looks like Flair removed all the US flights? Can't seem to find any in the bookings.


I just checked their website and all the cities are there..


Yeah, but absolutely no flights show up when trying to book on their website or google flights. As in you cannot book any flight to any US destination. When you try booking every single date says "no flight". Also, all the eastern US cities +PSP were removed, and only PHX and LAS are left as listed on the website. This makes me think all the flights have been canceled.
 
User avatar
Aresxerexade
Posts: 61
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:08 pm

Re: Flair Airlines US Expansion

Tue Jul 27, 2021 1:22 am

sold out?
 
User avatar
IceCream
Posts: 146
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:46 pm

Re: Flair Airlines US Expansion

Tue Jul 27, 2021 4:20 am

Aresxerexade wrote:
sold out?

I hope so. it would be a shame for them to cut their flights after just announcing them. If all the flights to the US were in fact cancelled, I would assume it's due to the lawsuit that Flair's largest shareholder is taking against Flair (apparently has to do with their new US flights?)
 
robsaw
Posts: 448
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2008 7:14 am

Re: Flair Airlines US Expansion

Tue Jul 27, 2021 4:48 am

IceCream wrote:
Aresxerexade wrote:
sold out?

I hope so. it would be a shame for them to cut their flights after just announcing them. If all the flights to the US were in fact cancelled, I would assume it's due to the lawsuit that Flair's largest shareholder is taking against Flair (apparently has to do with their new US flights?)


Neither sold out nor cancelled.

Either a web update on their end or a browser issue on your end.
 
nkops
Posts: 2289
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 10:09 am

Re: Flair Airlines US Expansion

Tue Jul 27, 2021 10:27 am

IceCream wrote:
nkops wrote:
IceCream wrote:
Looks like Flair removed all the US flights? Can't seem to find any in the bookings.


I just checked their website and all the cities are there..


Yeah, but absolutely no flights show up when trying to book on their website or google flights. As in you cannot book any flight to any US destination. When you try booking every single date says "no flight". Also, all the eastern US cities +PSP were removed, and only PHX and LAS are left as listed on the website. This makes me think all the flights have been canceled.


May be an issue with your browser.. I was able to go through the whole booking process on a SFB-YOW-SFB res with no problem.
 
User avatar
IceCream
Posts: 146
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:46 pm

Re: Flair Airlines US Expansion

Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:14 pm

nkops wrote:
IceCream wrote:
nkops wrote:

I just checked their website and all the cities are there..


Yeah, but absolutely no flights show up when trying to book on their website or google flights. As in you cannot book any flight to any US destination. When you try booking every single date says "no flight". Also, all the eastern US cities +PSP were removed, and only PHX and LAS are left as listed on the website. This makes me think all the flights have been canceled.


May be an issue with your browser.. I was able to go through the whole booking process on a SFB-YOW-SFB res with no problem.

Oopsies. Ignore the ramblings of this crazy person please :)
 
PITFlyer330
Posts: 150
Joined: Fri May 14, 2021 4:56 am

Re: Flair Airlines US Expansion

Tue Jul 27, 2021 6:19 pm

use the app, all US flights are there
 
User avatar
IceCream
Posts: 146
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:46 pm

Re: Flair Airlines US Expansion

Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:13 am

PITFlyer330 wrote:
use the app, all US flights are there

Thank you. Turns out just the YYC flights were canceled and everything else remains :)
 
User avatar
IceCream
Posts: 146
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:46 pm

Re: Flair Airlines US Expansion

Fri Aug 20, 2021 6:54 pm

Looks like Flair added these US flights to YEG as well now.
 
nine4nine
Posts: 800
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:44 pm

Re: Flair Airlines US Expansion

Fri Aug 20, 2021 8:08 pm

Official today Flair has re-added Canadian flights from BUR and are bookable. Official BUR Instagram put out a blast moments ago.

YVR-11/18/21
YEG-1/27/22
 
CFWAD
Posts: 132
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:36 pm

Re: Flair Airlines US Expansion

Sat Aug 21, 2021 2:02 am

nine4nine wrote:
Official today Flair has re-added Canadian flights from BUR and are bookable. Official BUR Instagram put out a blast moments ago.

YVR-11/18/21
YEG-1/27/22


Curious what arrangement has been made with USCBP to allow this service. I don't recall any international service ever (maybe Mexico?) into BUR.

Regardless, I see this costing Flair extra $$ - which is not something an ULCC wants to be paying for. What do they gain out of BUR? Tourism to Universal and Six Flags? I cannot imagine they are capturing any Hollywood North passengers. And price sensitive passengers who want Disneyland would pay the same or even a little extra/ a connection in SEA to land in LAX or SNA.
 
Whiteguy
Posts: 1670
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2003 6:11 am

Re: Flair Airlines US Expansion

Sat Aug 21, 2021 4:57 pm

CFWAD wrote:
nine4nine wrote:
Official today Flair has re-added Canadian flights from BUR and are bookable. Official BUR Instagram put out a blast moments ago.

YVR-11/18/21
YEG-1/27/22


Curious what arrangement has been made with USCBP to allow this service. I don't recall any international service ever (maybe Mexico?) into BUR.

Regardless, I see this costing Flair extra $$ - which is not something an ULCC wants to be paying for. What do they gain out of BUR? Tourism to Universal and Six Flags? I cannot imagine they are capturing any Hollywood North passengers. And price sensitive passengers who want Disneyland would pay the same or even a little extra/ a connection in SEA to land in LAX or SNA.


What arrangement with USCBP would need to be made? YEG and YVR have US pre-clearance….
 
User avatar
CrewBunk
Posts: 251
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2017 3:12 am

Re: Flair Airlines US Expansion

Sat Aug 21, 2021 5:21 pm

Whiteguy wrote:
What arrangement with USCBP would need to be made? YEG and YVR have US pre-clearance….

Even though pre-cleared, the US destination still requires full customs/immigration capabilities. USCBP always retains the option to manually post clear a flight on arrival.

In 35+ years of trans border (pre-cleared) flying, this has occurred to me twice.

If BUR does not have these facilities then even a pre-cleared flight can not fly there. So the arrangements would include ensuring that those facilities exist.
 
CFWAD
Posts: 132
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:36 pm

Re: Flair Airlines US Expansion

Sat Aug 21, 2021 7:34 pm

CrewBunk wrote:
Whiteguy wrote:
What arrangement with USCBP would need to be made? YEG and YVR have US pre-clearance….

Even though pre-cleared, the US destination still requires full customs/immigration capabilities. USCBP always retains the option to manually post clear a flight on arrival.

In 35+ years of trans border (pre-cleared) flying, this has occurred to me twice.

If BUR does not have these facilities then even a pre-cleared flight can not fly there. So the arrangements would include ensuring that those facilities exist.


Exactly. Which makes me question this operation. They announced this a few months ago, then pulled out, which makes one assume they did not have the prior approvals in advance. Now that they (apparently) do, they will be the ONLY international operation into BUR. Perhaps with FBO's USCBP has an established operation? I just think back to the debacle with SNA and issues with USCP clearance. Still think this will cost Flair more $$ than it is worth.

BUR also seems like something AC or even AS would have jumped on if there was a true opportunity. I feel like there is a premium market there for the Hollywood North (YVR) and even to Toronto out of BUR, vs the leisure market Flair is going after.
 
phllax
Posts: 690
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 6:53 am

Re: Flair Airlines US Expansion

Sat Aug 21, 2021 8:12 pm

CFWAD wrote:
CrewBunk wrote:
Whiteguy wrote:
What arrangement with USCBP would need to be made? YEG and YVR have US pre-clearance….

Even though pre-cleared, the US destination still requires full customs/immigration capabilities. USCBP always retains the option to manually post clear a flight on arrival.

In 35+ years of trans border (pre-cleared) flying, this has occurred to me twice.

If BUR does not have these facilities then even a pre-cleared flight can not fly there. So the arrangements would include ensuring that those facilities exist.


Exactly. Which makes me question this operation. They announced this a few months ago, then pulled out, which makes one assume they did not have the prior approvals in advance. Now that they (apparently) do, they will be the ONLY international operation into BUR. Perhaps with FBO's USCBP has an established operation? I just think back to the debacle with SNA and issues with USCP clearance. Still think this will cost Flair more $$ than it is worth.

BUR also seems like something AC or even AS would have jumped on if there was a true opportunity. I feel like there is a premium market there for the Hollywood North (YVR) and even to Toronto out of BUR, vs the leisure market Flair is going after.


The FBO’s stop at Van Nuys to clear, then fly the short hop to Burbank if needed.
 
Dominion301
Posts: 3028
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:48 pm

Re: Flair Airlines US Expansion

Sat Aug 21, 2021 8:49 pm

phllax wrote:
CFWAD wrote:
CrewBunk wrote:
Even though pre-cleared, the US destination still requires full customs/immigration capabilities. USCBP always retains the option to manually post clear a flight on arrival.

In 35+ years of trans border (pre-cleared) flying, this has occurred to me twice.

If BUR does not have these facilities then even a pre-cleared flight can not fly there. So the arrangements would include ensuring that those facilities exist.


Exactly. Which makes me question this operation. They announced this a few months ago, then pulled out, which makes one assume they did not have the prior approvals in advance. Now that they (apparently) do, they will be the ONLY international operation into BUR. Perhaps with FBO's USCBP has an established operation? I just think back to the debacle with SNA and issues with USCP clearance. Still think this will cost Flair more $$ than it is worth.

BUR also seems like something AC or even AS would have jumped on if there was a true opportunity. I feel like there is a premium market there for the Hollywood North (YVR) and even to Toronto out of BUR, vs the leisure market Flair is going after.


The FBO’s stop at Van Nuys to clear, then fly the short hop to Burbank if needed.


Maybe they've reached a 'pay-as-you-go' agreement with the USCBP services at VNY? Either way, they seem confident enough now to launch BUR. It must be cheaper than LAX, otherwise, why wouldn't you go to LAX?
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 2360
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Flair Airlines US Expansion

Sat Aug 21, 2021 10:27 pm

The City of Burbank has its own take on it. See 8(b) from this report dated 16 July 2021 that basically says non-Port of Entry airports like Burbank can accept flights from CBP pre-clearance airports.

https://www.burbankca.gov/documents/173 ... 6478271032

Maybe the City worked something out with CBP?
 
jimbo737
Posts: 568
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 12:18 am

Re: Flair Airlines US Expansion

Sun Aug 22, 2021 2:03 am

Two words:

No feed.
 
User avatar
gdg9
Posts: 1049
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 9:42 am

Re: Flair Airlines US Expansion

Mon Aug 23, 2021 3:04 pm

I was curious on this as well. They had BUR listed, then pulled it. So what is the deal? Did they reach an agreement with CBP? Maybe they pay the cost of sending folks up there? Perhaps the airport set up an area to use if needed?
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 9881
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Flair Airlines US Expansion

Mon Aug 23, 2021 3:16 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
The City of Burbank has its own take on it. See 8(b) from this report dated 16 July 2021 that basically says non-Port of Entry airports like Burbank can accept flights from CBP pre-clearance airports.

https://www.burbankca.gov/documents/173 ... 6478271032

Maybe the City worked something out with CBP?


Foregive the question, but do carriers actually contract to pay for CBP services, or is it just a matter of CBP providing services at selected airports and carriers making sure they arrive within open times?
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 9881
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Flair Airlines US Expansion

Mon Aug 23, 2021 3:18 pm

jimbo737 wrote:
Two words:

No feed.


Have any numbers for YVR/YEG - Los Angeles O&D?

BUR isn't the obvious choice for people headed to Disneyland but it's convenient (and for some points, meaningfully better than LAX) for a lot of SoCal destinations. It's got decent facilities for rental cars, hotels and public transit. We're not talking the idiocy of TATL flights going to Stewart SWF, 70 miles from Midtown (and woeful transit).
 
alasizon
Posts: 3041
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: Flair Airlines US Expansion

Mon Aug 23, 2021 5:19 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
The City of Burbank has its own take on it. See 8(b) from this report dated 16 July 2021 that basically says non-Port of Entry airports like Burbank can accept flights from CBP pre-clearance airports.

https://www.burbankca.gov/documents/173 ... 6478271032

Maybe the City worked something out with CBP?


Foregive the question, but do carriers actually contract to pay for CBP services, or is it just a matter of CBP providing services at selected airports and carriers making sure they arrive within open times?


A little bit of both, CBP and the airport establish a fee structure for the FIS capability. Depending on the airport you either pay a flat fee per person going through the FIS (based on actual passengers) or you pay an aircraft type fee based on aircraft capacity. A lot of airports also have flat fees for use of the FIS hallway that even carriers using the gates for domestic flights pay for (of course since BUR doesn't have an actual FIS, they won't have an FIS hallway fee).

Obviously one must schedule the flight to arrive within CBP operating hours, if a flight is running late it is up to the local CBP Supervisors whether or not they will stay to clear that flight if needed. There are typically no additional fees for staying late, the potential overtime is covered as part of the regular fees. For example, in PHX, CBP closes at 20:00/21:00 depending on time of year and as long as the flight is airborne by that time, CBP will stay but if they aren't in the air then the aircraft gets to make an unscheduled stop in TUS where CBP is 24/7.
 
CFWAD
Posts: 132
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:36 pm

Re: Flair Airlines US Expansion

Thu Aug 26, 2021 6:15 am

Telus suing Flair Airlines over allegedly unpaid bills at Kelowna's airport
https://www.castanet.net/news/Kelowna/343928/Telus-suing-Flair-Airlines-over-allegedly-unpaid-bills-at-Kelowna-s-airport

Makes you wonder when an airline embarking on a multi million dollar expansion can't seem to either remember or care to pay their old phone bills - at a piecemeal cost of 35,00.00CAD! - what else they cannot afford. Buyer beware with the shoulder season and expensive winter operation season in Canada!
 
jimbo737
Posts: 568
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 12:18 am

Re: Flair Airlines US Expansion

Fri Aug 27, 2021 7:50 pm

 
CFWAD
Posts: 132
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:36 pm

Re: Flair Airlines US Expansion

Fri Aug 27, 2021 9:12 pm

I question how long this can go on. An airline that has 25% foreign ownership, a foreign CEO coming from 2 vastly different airline markets than Canada (NZ and EU), a group of owners who apparently control 68% of the shares yet suing the BoD and company for their excessive expansion plans and insane interest rates on white-tail 73M leases. Their customer service ratings have never been positive. And yet they spend the time on a 3rd new livery and 2nd crew uniform in less than 3 years? Where is the money being spent on I.T., Customer Service and operational support? An ULCC needs to be capitalizing on technology and simplifying the workforce and work flow. Flair seems to be missing that?

*Disclaimer that I do know the Chairman (WJH not SJ) and had worked for him many years ago. Have not spoken in many years but I do have much respect for him and his incredible aviation career. This post is by no means a slight on him and his efforts whatsoever.
 
User avatar
IceCream
Posts: 146
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:46 pm

Re: Flair Airlines US Expansion

Fri Aug 27, 2021 9:18 pm

CFWAD wrote:
I question how long this can go on. An airline that has 25% foreign ownership, a foreign CEO coming from 2 vastly different airline markets than Canada (NZ and EU), a group of owners who apparently control 68% of the shares yet suing the BoD and company for their excessive expansion plans and insane interest rates on white-tail 73M leases. Their customer service ratings have never been positive. And yet they spend the time on a 3rd new livery and 2nd crew uniform in less than 3 years? Where is the money being spent on I.T., Customer Service and operational support? An ULCC needs to be capitalizing on technology and simplifying the workforce and work flow. Flair seems to be missing that?

*Disclaimer that I do know the Chairman (WJH not SJ) and had worked for him many years ago. Have not spoken in many years but I do have much respect for him and his incredible aviation career. This post is by no means a slight on him and his efforts whatsoever.

Flair seems to be doing ok, but I think their expansion plans are way too fast and ambitious, especially with these other issues.
https://www.aviationnepal.com/flair-air ... %20WestJet.
In no way can Flair be successful with 50 frames in just 5 years. Ultimately I don't know if they're going to last for very long.
 
CFWAD
Posts: 132
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:36 pm

Re: Flair Airlines US Expansion

Fri Aug 27, 2021 9:29 pm

Flair actually does not seem to be doing OK. They are being sued by their own owners. Plus a frivolous lawsuit over 35K that somehow made it to the news.And again, look at their customer reviews.

AC has received Federal support and the Canadian government now has a small ownership. Plus they are a public company to attract investment. And they can also rehash and regrow the low cost Rouge.
WS has Onex and billions backing them. They will also continue to grow their Encore and Swoop programs.
PD has whatever is left of their war chest from when they sold their YTZ terminal and an incredible deal from Embraer to support their "possible" growth plans.

All 3 of three of the above also have assets. Flair owns nothing except maybe the new uniforms they just bought everybody.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 2360
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Flair Airlines US Expansion

Fri Aug 27, 2021 10:58 pm

CFWAD wrote:
I question how long this can go on. An airline that has 25% foreign ownership, a foreign CEO coming from 2 vastly different airline markets than Canada (NZ and EU), a group of owners who apparently control 68% of the shares yet suing the BoD and company for their excessive expansion plans and insane interest rates on white-tail 73M leases. Their customer service ratings have never been positive. And yet they spend the time on a 3rd new livery and 2nd crew uniform in less than 3 years? Where is the money being spent on I.T., Customer Service and operational support? An ULCC needs to be capitalizing on technology and simplifying the workforce and work flow. Flair seems to be missing that?

*Disclaimer that I do know the Chairman (WJH not SJ) and had worked for him many years ago. Have not spoken in many years but I do have much respect for him and his incredible aviation career. This post is by no means a slight on him and his efforts whatsoever.


Are people flying them? Seen quite a few of their birds on FR24. If they’re making money, a lot of it is moot.

Their customer ratings aren’t particularly bad based on what’s available online. Running at 3/10 on Skytrax - on par with ACr and pretty close to “full-service” WS and AC at 4/10. Which isn’t really surprising, given that the overall Y product is roughly the same. All they need to do is make money while selling it for a little bit cheaper.
 
aamd11
Posts: 934
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2001 11:54 am

Re: Flair Airlines US Expansion

Fri Aug 27, 2021 11:03 pm

CFWAD wrote:
Telus suing Flair Airlines over allegedly unpaid bills at Kelowna's airport
https://www.castanet.net/news/Kelowna/343928/Telus-suing-Flair-Airlines-over-allegedly-unpaid-bills-at-Kelowna-s-airport

Makes you wonder when an airline embarking on a multi million dollar expansion can't seem to either remember or care to pay their old phone bills - at a piecemeal cost of 35,00.00CAD! - what else they cannot afford. Buyer beware with the shoulder season and expensive winter operation season in Canada!

They’re not the only ones to have sat on an invoice until the threat arrives. Many years ago, one airline was threatened with deicing services being withheld, a few days before the season was due to begin unless the outstanding six-figure balance was paid. The old money tree was shaken, some funds were found and a potential crisis was averted at the last minute. It’s almost as if the balance could have been paid at the first time of asking many months earlier.

The same airline that had visitors one day with a polite request to settle an outstanding balance for passenger accommodations that was about 18 months past due. And regular reminders from the airport authority that landing fees are on Net-15 terms.

It’s in the textbook on running a business on the cheap. A retirement home nearby operates in a similar fashion - don’t pay your vendors or your staff until you absolutely have to. Keep the money in the bank as long as you can.

There’s a fine line between low cost and just plain cheap.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 2360
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Flair Airlines US Expansion

Fri Aug 27, 2021 11:24 pm

jimbo737 wrote:


IRROPs on a Canadian airline? Never seen that before.

Good on him for apologizing - certainly a better attitude towards customers than that other Canadian carrier that lied about why it cancelled flights (something about an open airport being “closed”) - and got a formal warning from regulators. If that’s what “success” is all about, Canadians might be better off with these “train wrecks”.

IRROPs affect everyone. Would these folk have fared better on basic fares on other Canadian airlines in case of IRROPs? Anyone who’s flown in Canada - and especially those who’ve flown on basic fares - knows the answer to that one.
 
CFWAD
Posts: 132
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:36 pm

Re: Flair Airlines US Expansion

Sat Aug 28, 2021 12:18 am

Oh Boy..

First off - https://www.tripadvisor.ca/Airline_Revi ... r-Airlines

Second - Airplanes in the sky are the not the same as people flying in the seat and is not the same as the money they paid to cover the costs of the business. So fly all the planes you want but until they are covering your expenses - good luck to those folks in December that want to fly down to Disneyland and find their airline broke.

Third - When was the last time you flew domestically in Canada? A Y product on AC is very different than the only "Y" product available on Flair.

Fourth - You may pay a slight premium for when IRROPS in Canada always happen. AC and WS and even PD have the ability to recover flights much quicker than the likes of Flair. I could wait maybe 2 hours for a recovery flight on AC/WS.. But 2 days on Flair?!?

Fifth - This is not the first time Flair has shaken the "money tree" and if 777 Partners ever wants to put this tragic investment on the TSX and make some money from it - these little short comings definitely make future investors weary.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 2360
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Flair Airlines US Expansion

Sat Aug 28, 2021 3:57 am

CFWAD wrote:
Oh Boy..

First off - https://www.tripadvisor.ca/Airline_Revi ... r-Airlines

Second - Airplanes in the sky are the not the same as people flying in the seat and is not the same as the money they paid to cover the costs of the business. So fly all the planes you want but until they are covering your expenses - good luck to those folks in December that want to fly down to Disneyland and find their airline broke.

Third - When was the last time you flew domestically in Canada? A Y product on AC is very different than the only "Y" product available on Flair.

Fourth - You may pay a slight premium for when IRROPS in Canada always happen. AC and WS and even PD have the ability to recover flights much quicker than the likes of Flair. I could wait maybe 2 hours for a recovery flight on AC/WS.. But 2 days on Flair?!?

Fifth - This is not the first time Flair has shaken the "money tree" and if 777 Partners ever wants to put this tragic investment on the TSX and make some money from it - these little short comings definitely make future investors weary.


1. Might want to look closer. Same seat comfort, legroom, onboard service and value-for-money as ACr. Marginally worse customer service (2.5/5 v 3/5). Also the same value for money as AC mainline. The other mainline comparators (legroom, food and beverage) probably get skewed by PY and J offerings. Bottom line: Flair pax are as happy with what they get for what they pay on Flair, as AC/ACr pax are with AC/ACr.

2. Flair could be burning money flying empty planes for all I care. Regardless, if they’re making - or start making - enough money, many of the other issues are or will become moot.

3. Often enough to know that a PTV, a couple of glasses of coke and a bag of pretzels dont provide much differentiation when the seat comfort, legroom and onboard service is roughly the same on a transcontinental flight. Again Flair customer satisfaction with what they get for what they pay is the same as AC. That’s not a bad stat for a ULCC.

4. 2 hours for a recovery flight? Given one of those airline’s pre-COVID OTP performance, I’ve waited for longer than 2 hours to just get onto my delayed scheduled flight. Anyway, this 2 day thing isn’t unknown in Canada. A quick google search reveals very similar stories:

https://globalnews.ca/news/2844290/air- ... ed-in-u-k/

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/air-cana ... -1.3928738

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/ ... -1.4972159

I could go on, but why bother? Sure, a J passenger or a high fare class passenger might be better off , but Flair isnt competing for them. It’s competing for basic economy passengers. If they continue to grow, their ability to resolve these issues will likely improve.

5. Yeah, this one is weird. Granted it will go away if they actually make money. Successful ULCCs aren’t unheard of. Something to keep an eye on, along with the WS predatory pricing piece: (https://www.theglobeandmail.com/busines ... predatory/)
 
CFWAD
Posts: 132
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:36 pm

Re: Flair Airlines US Expansion

Sat Aug 28, 2021 5:26 am

So let me start this because you clearly have never worked in commercial or flight technical operations for an airline in Canada (heads, up, I have - and for the majors).

1. You compared ACr (which nobody in Canada refers to is as that) to an airline flying domestic blocks averaging well over 3+ hours. How can you compare a DH4 service to a 73M service? You said Flair pax are happy with what they pay for. Check the BBB and again this link: https://www.tripadvisor.ca/Airline_Revi ... r-Airlines

2. Look at the current legal cases against the airline that are available online. Burning money for all you care? Might me an issue when a family of 4 is stranded in MCO this winter when the one owning only 25% of controlling shares yet owns the leasing company that has all the planes pulls the plug.

3. A PTV, couple glasses of coke and a bag of pretzels is exactly what is differentiating Flair from the others right now. That is exactly what onboard service is! Again, have you read the reviews? A PTV is even differentiating AC vs WS.

4. Every news article you posted was for international travel, which alone provides for it's own operational issues - none of which Flair currently flies. And need I bring up the the Flair debacle during their first attempt into the U.S.?

So absolutely none of what you said holds any merit. With all respect, understand the Canadian aviation landscape before posting this dribble.

I am taking the weekend off. Jimbo (my old boss decades ago) can fill in with a more higher level understanding.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 2360
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Flair Airlines US Expansion

Sat Aug 28, 2021 1:10 pm

CFWAD wrote:
So let me start this because you clearly have never worked in commercial or flight technical operations for an airline in Canada (heads, up, I have - and for the majors).


Correct. I pay to fly. Flown both AC and WS. And FR (not Flair) for that matter. Passengers flying on basic economy care about value for money. Which is a function of price, seat comfort/legroom, baggage and maybe onboard service.

Didn’t realize pax experience doesn’t count.

CFWAD wrote:
1. You compared ACr (which nobody in Canada refers to is as that) to an airline flying domestic blocks averaging well over 3+ hours. How can you compare a DH4 service to a 73M service? You said Flair pax are happy with what they pay for. Check the BBB and again this link: https://www.tripadvisor.ca/Airline_Revi ... r-Airlines


Poor choice of shorthand then - referring to rouge. They cater to Flair target audience, and therefore are a useful comparator.

https://www.tripadvisor.ca/Airline_Revi ... nada-Rouge

Flair provides the same value for money as them (and AC mainline for that matter). That suggests that they’re competitive.

CFWAD wrote:
2. Look at the current legal cases against the airline that are available online. Burning money for all you care? Might me an issue when a family of 4 is stranded in MCO this winter when the one owning only 25% of controlling shares yet owns the leasing company that has all the planes pulls the plug.


Or not. The government might step in to help those stranded pax out, like the UK government did when Thomas Cook went under.

Of course, that assumes that they will fall apart. PDs been described as is a flying cash furnace for most of the past decade. Best cross that bridge when we get there - not least because ULCC models have a decent track record.

CFWAD wrote:
3. A PTV, couple glasses of coke and a bag of pretzels is exactly what is differentiating Flair from the others right now. That is exactly what onboard service is! Again, have you read the reviews? A PTV is even differentiating AC vs WS.


Lol - think there might be a pax/employee disconnect on perspective here. From a pax perspective, those aren’t differentiators - they merely reflect how marginal the differences are. Flair is targeting a specific type of market (basic economy). Do you really think they’ll pay $10-$20 more for those “differentiators”?

CFWAD wrote:
4. Every news article you posted was for international travel, which alone provides for it's own operational issues - none of which Flair currently flies. And need I bring up the the Flair debacle during their first attempt into the U.S.?

So absolutely none of what you said holds any merit. With all respect, understand the Canadian aviation landscape before posting this dribble.

I am taking the weekend off. Jimbo (my old boss decades ago) can fill in with a more higher level understanding.


Yes, post every Flair train wreck. Pax lurking here should know what they’re signing up for. Just as they should with the others.

As to merits of views or not - the aviation market isn’t just about airlines - passengers matter too (or maybe not). Perspectives tend to differ between those who get paid to fly, and those who pay to fly. Some of us have lived/travelled domestically in other countries. Always a good idea to get a sense of what you pay for what you get. Makes for more holistic comparison. Like when one compares QF domestic Y to AC/WS domestic Y to get a better sense of where airlines fall on the entire full service-to-ULCC spectrum.

For the record, don’t know (or care) if F8 will survive. Just dont see any merit in the doom-mongering either. Not least while a predatory pricing investigation is either going on, or is in the offing.
 
sxf24
Posts: 1249
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:22 pm

Re: Flair Airlines US Expansion

Sat Aug 28, 2021 2:27 pm

CFWAD wrote:
I question how long this can go on. An airline that has 25% foreign ownership, a foreign CEO coming from 2 vastly different airline markets than Canada (NZ and EU), a group of owners who apparently control 68% of the shares yet suing the BoD and company for their excessive expansion plans and insane interest rates on white-tail 73M leases. Their customer service ratings have never been positive. And yet they spend the time on a 3rd new livery and 2nd crew uniform in less than 3 years? Where is the money being spent on I.T., Customer Service and operational support? An ULCC needs to be capitalizing on technology and simplifying the workforce and work flow. Flair seems to be missing that?

*Disclaimer that I do know the Chairman (WJH not SJ) and had worked for him many years ago. Have not spoken in many years but I do have much respect for him and his incredible aviation career. This post is by no means a slight on him and his efforts whatsoever.


Leases don’t have an interest rate.

Jim Scott is suing because he is bitter he was pushed out in favor of a competent, experienced CEO.

Who is online

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos