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MD88CLE
Posts: 113
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2012 1:16 am

Re: Passengers Forced To Put Hands On Head

Sun Jul 11, 2021 11:39 pm

Dutch wrote:
pointing assault rifles and screaming at passengers to place our hands on our FACES (from heads to our faces).


Conflicting and changing instructions from law enforcement in high stress situations where people have weapons pointed at them are how people get killed, as seen with the killing of Daniel Shaver and other incidents.

I also have to say that if I had a weapon pointed in my face like that, I would regard the people doing so as terrorists.
 
travelsonic
Posts: 158
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2007 8:59 am

Re: Passengers Forced To Put Hands On Head

Sun Jul 11, 2021 11:45 pm

Dutch wrote:
@travelsonic. They were VERY specific that according to federal law (I can't remember the details) anyone who recorded events WOULD be subject to prosecution and fined some thousands of dollars... they said $1200 or $2400.!


While I wouldn't have bucked there - it SOUNDS, to my unexperienced eyes and ears of course, like they are full of shite.
 
phlswaflyer
Posts: 119
Joined: Sat Oct 19, 2013 9:02 pm

Re: Passengers Forced To Put Hands On Head

Mon Jul 12, 2021 12:24 am

planecane wrote:
How can they just detain all passengers after landing with no probable cause? I think I would have phoned an attorney immediately.


.......and you the guy who sues the airline because of bad weather. What would have you expected the attorney to say? "Yes, we have a case because the airline perceived a threat and you were inconvenienced for a few minutes?" C'mon man - find a good car weck if you need to play the alternative lottery.
 
phlswaflyer
Posts: 119
Joined: Sat Oct 19, 2013 9:02 pm

Re: Passengers Forced To Put Hands On Head

Mon Jul 12, 2021 12:35 am

FlyEndeavorAir wrote:
Ha, I'd tell them no way, let them arrest me, and let my lawyer have a field day with them.


.....love the armchair lawyers - you would have NO case. NONE. Exactly what and why would you think you would recover something because you had to put your hands on your head? Brave guy to have a standoff with FEDS. I want to see you do what you said - I'll get some popcorn now.
 
Airlines0613
Posts: 226
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2016 6:06 am

Re: Passengers Forced To Put Hands On Head

Mon Jul 12, 2021 12:44 am

phlswaflyer wrote:
FlyEndeavorAir wrote:
Ha, I'd tell them no way, let them arrest me, and let my lawyer have a field day with them.


.....love the armchair lawyers - you would have NO case. NONE. Exactly what and why would you think you would recover something because you had to put your hands on your head? Brave guy to have a standoff with FEDS. I want to see you do what you said - I'll get some popcorn now.

Obviously you must have studied Floridian Law in order for you to state such a bold statement as well. If you aren’t a lawyer yourself, you’re a hypocrite.

Anyways, if you look at the multiple cases of unlawful detention, no matter what the victim does, all charges are dropped and the feds settle. So yes, he does have a case against the airline and feds if they decide to arrest him.
 
graceintheair
Posts: 55
Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2021 4:11 am

Re: Passengers Forced To Put Hands On Head

Mon Jul 12, 2021 12:52 am

Airlines0613 wrote:
phlswaflyer wrote:
FlyEndeavorAir wrote:
Ha, I'd tell them no way, let them arrest me, and let my lawyer have a field day with them.


.....love the armchair lawyers - you would have NO case. NONE. Exactly what and why would you think you would recover something because you had to put your hands on your head? Brave guy to have a standoff with FEDS. I want to see you do what you said - I'll get some popcorn now.

Obviously you must have studied Floridian Law in order for you to state such a bold statement as well. If you aren’t a lawyer yourself, you’re a hypocrite.

Anyways, if you look at the multiple cases of unlawful detention, no matter what the victim does, all charges are dropped and the feds settle. So yes, he does have a case against the airline and feds if they decide to arrest him.


Agreed. And what about the elderly and disabled passengers who have limited mobility and certainly couldn't do it for nearly an hour? AA could very well be found negligent. They knew the problem passenger. No need for such measures.
 
DenverTed
Posts: 750
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:12 pm

Re: AA2289 Security Incident to MIA

Mon Jul 12, 2021 1:06 am

The FAA should have filmed this so they could have play it in the safety video. In, this is what will happen if somebody tampers with the lavatory smoke detector.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 9000
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

Re: AA2289 Security Incident to MIA

Mon Jul 12, 2021 2:06 am

Crazy...... I'm sure we will never hear much about the actual reasons or threat that led to all of this.
That type of heavy-handed law enforcement and protocol isn't usually deployed for run-of-the-mill bad behavior on airplanes.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2797
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Passengers Forced To Put Hands On Head

Mon Jul 12, 2021 2:20 am

FlyEndeavorAir wrote:
Ha, I'd tell them no way, let them arrest me, and let my lawyer have a field day with them.

On what grounds? Come in people. You think one attorney will have any success from a multi billion dollar company with an army of lawyers?
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2797
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Passengers Forced To Put Hands On Head

Mon Jul 12, 2021 2:24 am

Speedy752 wrote:
rdombrov wrote:
Dutch wrote:
I was on the 2289 LAX-MIA service last Wednesday. There seems to be a lot of misinformation floating around. Although my understanding of the event is limited, I can correct a few details. I was sitting in Business, so did not see or hear any events in the rear cabin.
1. We landed ontime into MIA with no indication that anything was amiss.
2. We taxied from 8L towards D terminal and then turned left and followed a pilot vehicle - headed to a "concrete walled" secure parking bay near the fire station.
3. We were then instructed over the PA to place hands on heads and not to video any events (threats of fines etc). The cabin crew also placed hands on their heads. We could see heavily armed security/police "hiding" behind the doors in the concrete bay wall, but nothing happened for probably 20-30 minutes, when stairs were placed at 1L and security came on board. The security personnel came down both aisles, pointing assault rifles and screaming at passengers to place our hands on our FACES (from heads to our faces).
4. After 15 or 20 minutes security deplaned a single 25/35 year old male, and then some 15 minutes later an older lady who we assume was his mother (she took their carry-ons with her). The police were being very courteous to the lady.
5. All this time, there were officers controlling each cabin.
6. Then suddenly we were removed in groups of approx 6 pax. We were instructed to leave all possessions on board. Happened so fast that I deplaned with out my cel or wallet. We were lined up outside the concrete walled area and had two separate dogs come past us, then we were taken to buses and transported over to Terminal D.
7. After significant confusion (no AA or security met us off the buses and we mixed into the normal passenger area) we got instructed over PA to go to D28.
8. At D28, AA ground staff arrived 15 mins later and informed us that the aircraft was being assessed and to wait. 30 mins later we were informed that EVERY bag was being checked and to go for a stroll for at least an hour. A significant number of pax missed connections. I immediately rebooked, but due to volume, some were still being rebooked when I left the gate 3 hours later.
9. Approx 2 hours after arriving at D28, the aircraft was towed onto the gate. We were taken on board in small groups to recover our carry on bags. The selection process to pick pax to go on was very disorganized and although mostly very calm, some pax got quite agitated with this process at the gate. One gentleman had an active verbal confrontation with police as he had seen another pax mistakenly recover and deplane with his bag (recovered).
10.... that's about it! Never seen anything like in 40 years flying. We still have no idea what the event was. AA sent me an apology email yesterday with an offer of miles credited to my account for the inconvenience.


That's incredible., or perhaps insane. I might have been ok with the first part, but that long wait to get belongings from the plane is beyond belief without some type of explanation. Makes me want to be sure to not book AA, and DFW is my home airport.


I’d withhold judgement on AA on this one until more comes out. It is quite possible they were directed What to do and were just as helpless to control the situation as the passengers. I would expect some lawsuits to follow, it would be pretty traumatic to have armed agents boarding the plane shoving rifles in random passengers faces. I’d find it hard to believe AA would be ok with this, and my allegiances are usually with other carriers.

Lawsuit for what? The police are in charge of the situation not AA.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2797
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Passengers Forced To Put Hands On Head

Mon Jul 12, 2021 2:28 am

Airlines0613 wrote:
phlswaflyer wrote:
FlyEndeavorAir wrote:
Ha, I'd tell them no way, let them arrest me, and let my lawyer have a field day with them.


.....love the armchair lawyers - you would have NO case. NONE. Exactly what and why would you think you would recover something because you had to put your hands on your head? Brave guy to have a standoff with FEDS. I want to see you do what you said - I'll get some popcorn now.

Obviously you must have studied Floridian Law in order for you to state such a bold statement as well. If you aren’t a lawyer yourself, you’re a hypocrite.

Anyways, if you look at the multiple cases of unlawful detention, no matter what the victim does, all charges are dropped and the feds settle. So yes, he does have a case against the airline and feds if they decide to arrest him.

Federal law covers incidents on planes. Not state. That’s why you are prosecuted by the Feds, not state.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 9000
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

Re: AA2289 Security Incident to MIA

Mon Jul 12, 2021 2:29 am

Yeah....this wasn't in AA's controls or even the local PD.....this was some combination of alphabet-acronym federal agency response running the show here. (TSA, DHS, FBI, ATF)
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 1806
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: Passengers Forced To Put Hands On Head

Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:13 am

ikramerica wrote:
Where is the closest Airport that can handle a 77W 45 min out of Miami? SRQ? Was that going to be closer than MIA on the route they were on?

MCO, JAX, Cecil, MLB, SFB, Hunter, CHS, SAV, Beaufort, CAE, Etc....
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 1806
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: Passengers Forced To Put Hands On Head

Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:18 am

travelsonic wrote:
Dutch wrote:
@travelsonic. They were VERY specific that according to federal law (I can't remember the details) anyone who recorded events WOULD be subject to prosecution and fined some thousands of dollars... they said $1200 or $2400.!


While I wouldn't have bucked there - it SOUNDS, to my unexperienced eyes and ears of course, like they are full of shite.

They are..
That sounds like an SOC Duty Manager not wanting to explain, YET AGAIN, to management why the Airline is a hit on BubeTube.

So, no video, the media doesn't care, and the only ones who really know about the whole ordeal are us. Mission Accomplished.
 
phlswaflyer
Posts: 119
Joined: Sat Oct 19, 2013 9:02 pm

Re: Passengers Forced To Put Hands On Head

Mon Jul 12, 2021 11:28 am

Airlines0613 wrote:
phlswaflyer wrote:
FlyEndeavorAir wrote:
Ha, I'd tell them no way, let them arrest me, and let my lawyer have a field day with them.


.....love the armchair lawyers - you would have NO case. NONE. Exactly what and why would you think you would recover something because you had to put your hands on your head? Brave guy to have a standoff with FEDS. I want to see you do what you said - I'll get some popcorn now.

Obviously you must have studied Floridian Law in order for you to state such a bold statement as well. If you aren’t a lawyer yourself, you’re a hypocrite.

Anyways, if you look at the multiple cases of unlawful detention, no matter what the victim does, all charges are dropped and the feds settle. So yes, he does have a case against the airline and feds if they decide to arrest him.


and you know nothing about the law. This is NOT unlawful detention. by any legal definition other than some who wants to make a cash grab. Stay away from topics you know nothing about. Look up the FED statute.
 
phlswaflyer
Posts: 119
Joined: Sat Oct 19, 2013 9:02 pm

Re: Passengers Forced To Put Hands On Head

Mon Jul 12, 2021 11:37 am

Airlines0613 wrote:
phlswaflyer wrote:
FlyEndeavorAir wrote:
Ha, I'd tell them no way, let them arrest me, and let my lawyer have a field day with them.


.....love the armchair lawyers - you would have NO case. NONE. Exactly what and why would you think you would recover something because you had to put your hands on your head? Brave guy to have a standoff with FEDS. I want to see you do what you said - I'll get some popcorn now.

Obviously you must have studied Floridian Law in order for you to state such a bold statement as well. If you aren’t a lawyer yourself, you’re a hypocrite.

Anyways, if you look at the multiple cases of unlawful detention, no matter what the victim does, all charges are dropped and the feds settle. So yes, he does have a case against the airline and feds if they decide to arrest him.


oh yeah - if YOU are a lawyer ( which I doubt) FLA law is not the law, it's FED law. and statute. Nice try. Play again next week.
 
phlswaflyer
Posts: 119
Joined: Sat Oct 19, 2013 9:02 pm

Re: Passengers Forced To Put Hands On Head

Mon Jul 12, 2021 11:41 am

MD88CLE wrote:
Dutch wrote:
pointing assault rifles and screaming at passengers to place our hands on our FACES (from heads to our faces).


Conflicting and changing instructions from law enforcement in high stress situations where people have weapons pointed at them are how people get killed, as seen with the killing of Daniel Shaver and other incidents.

I also have to say that if I had a weapon pointed in my face like that, I would regard the people doing so as terrorists.


Ok, and what would you do exactly? FED agents who are handling a threat to YOUR safety - and you would .....???? Try and fight them? Take their gun away? Threaten to sue them? Seriously, what would be your course of action?
 
phlswaflyer
Posts: 119
Joined: Sat Oct 19, 2013 9:02 pm

Re: Passengers Forced To Put Hands On Head

Mon Jul 12, 2021 11:45 am

Boof02671 wrote:
FlyEndeavorAir wrote:
Ha, I'd tell them no way, let them arrest me, and let my lawyer have a field day with them.

On what grounds? Come in people. You think one attorney will have any success from a multi billion dollar company with an army of lawyers?


EXACTLY - people screaming to get a cash grab. SHUT up, comply, and live to tell the story. Get over yourself.
 
IFlyVeryLittle
Posts: 216
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:31 pm

Re: Passengers Forced To Put Hands On Head

Mon Jul 12, 2021 12:07 pm

Right. You go first. Its amazing how many armchair litigators come out of the woodworks on the internet after one of these. Sure, maybe you are being held "illegally" for a couple of hours. But I guarantee, walking up to one of the armed officers and essentially telling them "Im right and you're not" will not result in you simply picking up your bags and walking off. Please.
r6russian wrote:
planecane wrote:
How can they just detain all passengers after landing with no probable cause? I think I would have phoned an attorney immediately.

because nobody spoke up and asked if they were under arrest. if under arrest, they need to see the arresting officer and a list of charges against them, and if any of those dont pan out, theyre free to go.
 
phlswaflyer
Posts: 119
Joined: Sat Oct 19, 2013 9:02 pm

Re: Passengers Forced To Put Hands On Head

Mon Jul 12, 2021 12:22 pm

IFlyVeryLittle wrote:
Right. You go first. Its amazing how many armchair litigators come out of the woodworks on the internet after one of these. Sure, maybe you are being held "illegally" for a couple of hours. But I guarantee, walking up to one of the armed officers and essentially telling them "Im right and you're not" will not result in you simply picking up your bags and walking off. Please.
r6russian wrote:
planecane wrote:
How can they just detain all passengers after landing with no probable cause? I think I would have phoned an attorney immediately.

because nobody spoke up and asked if they were under arrest. if under arrest, they need to see the arresting officer and a list of charges against them, and if any of those dont pan out, theyre free to go.


THANK YOU!! Everyone's a tough guy online and until they are faced with a real situation. I would love to watch these court cases.
 
Sooner787
Posts: 2873
Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:44 am

Re: Passengers Forced To Put Hands On Head

Mon Jul 12, 2021 2:20 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:
This will be a lawsuit waiting to happen. If the threat was so critical to require all passengers to be restricted from physical movement; then the flight should have landed at the nearest airport that has air stairs. This is insane.


The aircraft in question was a B77W. How many other airports in the area are able to handle one that big?


Wasn't that a LAX-MIA flight? They surely could've landed at DFW ?
 
User avatar
SuseJ772
Posts: 1080
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:13 am

Re: Passengers Forced To Put Hands On Head

Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:10 pm

Dutch wrote:
I was on the 2289 LAX-MIA service last Wednesday. There seems to be a lot of misinformation floating around. Although my understanding of the event is limited, I can correct a few details. I was sitting in Business, so did not see or hear any events in the rear cabin.
1. We landed ontime into MIA with no indication that anything was amiss.
2. We taxied from 8L towards D terminal and then turned left and followed a pilot vehicle - headed to a "concrete walled" secure parking bay near the fire station.
3. We were then instructed over the PA to place hands on heads and not to video any events (threats of fines etc). The cabin crew also placed hands on their heads. We could see heavily armed security/police "hiding" behind the doors in the concrete bay wall, but nothing happened for probably 20-30 minutes, when stairs were placed at 1L and security came on board. The security personnel came down both aisles, pointing assault rifles and screaming at passengers to place our hands on our FACES (from heads to our faces).
4. After 15 or 20 minutes security deplaned a single 25/35 year old male, and then some 15 minutes later an older lady who we assume was his mother (she took their carry-ons with her). The police were being very courteous to the lady.
5. All this time, there were officers controlling each cabin.
6. Then suddenly we were removed in groups of approx 6 pax. We were instructed to leave all possessions on board. Happened so fast that I deplaned with out my cel or wallet. We were lined up outside the concrete walled area and had two separate dogs come past us, then we were taken to buses and transported over to Terminal D.
7. After significant confusion (no AA or security met us off the buses and we mixed into the normal passenger area) we got instructed over PA to go to D28.
8. At D28, AA ground staff arrived 15 mins later and informed us that the aircraft was being assessed and to wait. 30 mins later we were informed that EVERY bag was being checked and to go for a stroll for at least an hour. A significant number of pax missed connections. I immediately rebooked, but due to volume, some were still being rebooked when I left the gate 3 hours later.
9. Approx 2 hours after arriving at D28, the aircraft was towed onto the gate. We were taken on board in small groups to recover our carry on bags. The selection process to pick pax to go on was very disorganized and although mostly very calm, some pax got quite agitated with this process at the gate. One gentleman had an active verbal confrontation with police as he had seen another pax mistakenly recover and deplane with his bag (recovered).
10.... that's about it! Never seen anything like in 40 years flying. We still have no idea what the event was. AA sent me an apology email yesterday with an offer of miles credited to my account for the inconvenience.


Is anyone else amazed this hasn't been picked up on the news yet? I feel like Dutch's account here is getting missed. So far I can only find one Daily Mail and one Texas News Today articles and both are just focused on the hands on the head thing. Which totally misses the real story here. This feels like a way more important story than just "some yokel got drunk and tried to open the door," which gets covered en masse.
 
silentbob
Posts: 1647
Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:26 pm

Re: Passengers Forced To Put Hands On Head

Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:01 pm

Sooner787 wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:
This will be a lawsuit waiting to happen. If the threat was so critical to require all passengers to be restricted from physical movement; then the flight should have landed at the nearest airport that has air stairs. This is insane.


The aircraft in question was a B77W. How many other airports in the area are able to handle one that big?


Wasn't that a LAX-MIA flight? They surely could've landed at DFW ?

Given the coordinated police response described upon landing, some time is required to put that all together. Rushing the aircraft to the ground may not have given law enforcement the amount of time required to adequately prepare for their arrival.
 
kalvado
Posts: 3389
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Passengers Forced To Put Hands On Head

Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:20 pm

silentbob wrote:
Sooner787 wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:

The aircraft in question was a B77W. How many other airports in the area are able to handle one that big?


Wasn't that a LAX-MIA flight? They surely could've landed at DFW ?

Given the coordinated police response described upon landing, some time is required to put that all together. Rushing the aircraft to the ground may not have given law enforcement the amount of time required to adequately prepare for their arrival.

There is a real issue with the contradictory nature of the story.

Aircraft moved to a secured area, passengers ordered to some restrain - is there an immediate threat to the aircraft?
If yes, then landing ASAP looks like a good idea. If not, why passengers are dealt with like an immediate threat?

If aircraft had an explosive device, why would it be detonated towards the end of the flight, more so after landing? effect may be much larger for a fully fueled aircraft at LAX, or en-route airborne bang. Aircraft was allowed to go over the bay, and that would complicate things in my book. So, maybe, events really unfolded very late in the flight?
Looks like we see some standard maximum-security response activated without understanding the nature of event. FA getting a bad day and escalating another unruly pax to a 9/11 proportion, maybe?
 
planecane
Posts: 1746
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:58 pm

Re: Passengers Forced To Put Hands On Head

Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:28 pm

phlswaflyer wrote:
planecane wrote:
How can they just detain all passengers after landing with no probable cause? I think I would have phoned an attorney immediately.


.......and you the guy who sues the airline because of bad weather. What would have you expected the attorney to say? "Yes, we have a case because the airline perceived a threat and you were inconvenienced for a few minutes?" C'mon man - find a good car weck if you need to play the alternative lottery.


You don't know anything about me. I have never sued anybody for anything. I've never even complained to customer service about a weather delay. As I said in a prior post, I wouldn't have called an attorney to assess if I had a case of some kind. I'd have called to see if the attorney would be able to end my detention.

As described by the person who was actually on board, this wasn't "a few minutes" of inconvenience. It was hours.
 
jetmatt777
Posts: 4805
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:16 am

Re: Passengers Forced To Put Hands On Head

Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:43 pm

kalvado wrote:
silentbob wrote:
Sooner787 wrote:

Wasn't that a LAX-MIA flight? They surely could've landed at DFW ?

Given the coordinated police response described upon landing, some time is required to put that all together. Rushing the aircraft to the ground may not have given law enforcement the amount of time required to adequately prepare for their arrival.

There is a real issue with the contradictory nature of the story.

Aircraft moved to a secured area, passengers ordered to some restrain - is there an immediate threat to the aircraft?
If yes, then landing ASAP looks like a good idea. If not, why passengers are dealt with like an immediate threat?

If aircraft had an explosive device, why would it be detonated towards the end of the flight, more so after landing? effect may be much larger for a fully fueled aircraft at LAX, or en-route airborne bang. Aircraft was allowed to go over the bay, and that would complicate things in my book. So, maybe, events really unfolded very late in the flight?
Looks like we see some standard maximum-security response activated without understanding the nature of event. FA getting a bad day and escalating another unruly pax to a 9/11 proportion, maybe?


That is what is confusing to me. If the situation is so extreme that it is assumed by law enforcement that every passenger on board may be the threat; or that multiple people are the threat why not get on the ground. Any kind of onboard organized attack is better handled on the ground; even if there is not time for an organized law enforcement response. Slides can be deployed and people can get out. An explosion on the ground is also way more survivable than at FL350. So the threat clearly wasn’t imminent to require an immediate diversion; then why did LEO board the airplane and operate under the assumption that every person on board was a threat?

This is a very confusing circumstance. If the airplane was on fire would they have overflown several diversion options because MIA has better fire trucks? Why would you do the same for an onboard threat of unknown origin where every passenger has to be detained?
 
btfarrwm
Posts: 156
Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 5:50 am

Re: Passengers Forced To Put Hands On Head

Mon Jul 12, 2021 5:09 pm

Dutch wrote:
I was on the 2289 LAX-MIA service last Wednesday. There seems to be a lot of misinformation floating around. Although my understanding of the event is limited, I can correct a few details. I was sitting in Business, so did not see or hear any events in the rear cabin.
1. We landed ontime into MIA with no indication that anything was amiss.
2. We taxied from 8L towards D terminal and then turned left and followed a pilot vehicle - headed to a "concrete walled" secure parking bay near the fire station.
3. We were then instructed over the PA to place hands on heads and not to video any events (threats of fines etc). The cabin crew also placed hands on their heads. We could see heavily armed security/police "hiding" behind the doors in the concrete bay wall, but nothing happened for probably 20-30 minutes, when stairs were placed at 1L and security came on board. The security personnel came down both aisles, pointing assault rifles and screaming at passengers to place our hands on our FACES (from heads to our faces).
4. After 15 or 20 minutes security deplaned a single 25/35 year old male, and then some 15 minutes later an older lady who we assume was his mother (she took their carry-ons with her). The police were being very courteous to the lady.
5. All this time, there were officers controlling each cabin.
6. Then suddenly we were removed in groups of approx 6 pax. We were instructed to leave all possessions on board. Happened so fast that I deplaned with out my cel or wallet. We were lined up outside the concrete walled area and had two separate dogs come past us, then we were taken to buses and transported over to Terminal D.
7. After significant confusion (no AA or security met us off the buses and we mixed into the normal passenger area) we got instructed over PA to go to D28.
8. At D28, AA ground staff arrived 15 mins later and informed us that the aircraft was being assessed and to wait. 30 mins later we were informed that EVERY bag was being checked and to go for a stroll for at least an hour. A significant number of pax missed connections. I immediately rebooked, but due to volume, some were still being rebooked when I left the gate 3 hours later.
9. Approx 2 hours after arriving at D28, the aircraft was towed onto the gate. We were taken on board in small groups to recover our carry on bags. The selection process to pick pax to go on was very disorganized and although mostly very calm, some pax got quite agitated with this process at the gate. One gentleman had an active verbal confrontation with police as he had seen another pax mistakenly recover and deplane with his bag (recovered).
10.... that's about it! Never seen anything like in 40 years flying. We still have no idea what the event was. AA sent me an apology email yesterday with an offer of miles credited to my account for the inconvenience.


- The weirdest part of the whole scenario was the instruction to cover your faces as opposed to keeping your hands in sight of law enforcement (I struggle to find a rationale for that under any circumstance).

- The instructions not to film also seem dubious. This is an excerpt from a DHS document outlining when agents CAN prohibit filming and I don't see how they are applicable here, unless they thought "sensitive" information would be recorded between the agents and the suspect...

An order to stop recording can be constitutionally imposed when an officer can reasonably conclude that the filming is subject to a reasonable time, place, or manner restriction. Reasonable? For one, an officer may have a reasonable expectation of privacy in what is being said. The federal wiretap statute for example would prohibit someone from using a sensitive audio recording device, like a parabolic microphone, to eavesdrop on the conversation of an officer and witness after the two separated themselves from the crowd and made other reasonable efforts to keep their conversation private.8

Even an open recording may be subject to a reasonable restriction. Since officers can control the movements of the occupants of a car during a traffic stop, ordering a passenger to get back in the car may be reasonable despite the passenger’s objection that “I can’t put you on the evening news from back there.” Some traffic stops, particularly when the detained individual is armed, might justify a safety measure - - for example, a command that bystanders disperse. And a preexisting statute, ordinance, or other published restriction may limit where someone

https://www.fletc.gov/sites/default/fil ... rmer15.pdf
 
btfarrwm
Posts: 156
Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 5:50 am

Re: Passengers Forced To Put Hands On Head

Mon Jul 12, 2021 5:10 pm

btfarrwm wrote:
Dutch wrote:
I was on the 2289 LAX-MIA service last Wednesday. There seems to be a lot of misinformation floating around. Although my understanding of the event is limited, I can correct a few details. I was sitting in Business, so did not see or hear any events in the rear cabin.
1. We landed ontime into MIA with no indication that anything was amiss.
2. We taxied from 8L towards D terminal and then turned left and followed a pilot vehicle - headed to a "concrete walled" secure parking bay near the fire station.
3. We were then instructed over the PA to place hands on heads and not to video any events (threats of fines etc). The cabin crew also placed hands on their heads. We could see heavily armed security/police "hiding" behind the doors in the concrete bay wall, but nothing happened for probably 20-30 minutes, when stairs were placed at 1L and security came on board. The security personnel came down both aisles, pointing assault rifles and screaming at passengers to place our hands on our FACES (from heads to our faces).
4. After 15 or 20 minutes security deplaned a single 25/35 year old male, and then some 15 minutes later an older lady who we assume was his mother (she took their carry-ons with her). The police were being very courteous to the lady.
5. All this time, there were officers controlling each cabin.
6. Then suddenly we were removed in groups of approx 6 pax. We were instructed to leave all possessions on board. Happened so fast that I deplaned with out my cel or wallet. We were lined up outside the concrete walled area and had two separate dogs come past us, then we were taken to buses and transported over to Terminal D.
7. After significant confusion (no AA or security met us off the buses and we mixed into the normal passenger area) we got instructed over PA to go to D28.
8. At D28, AA ground staff arrived 15 mins later and informed us that the aircraft was being assessed and to wait. 30 mins later we were informed that EVERY bag was being checked and to go for a stroll for at least an hour. A significant number of pax missed connections. I immediately rebooked, but due to volume, some were still being rebooked when I left the gate 3 hours later.
9. Approx 2 hours after arriving at D28, the aircraft was towed onto the gate. We were taken on board in small groups to recover our carry on bags. The selection process to pick pax to go on was very disorganized and although mostly very calm, some pax got quite agitated with this process at the gate. One gentleman had an active verbal confrontation with police as he had seen another pax mistakenly recover and deplane with his bag (recovered).
10.... that's about it! Never seen anything like in 40 years flying. We still have no idea what the event was. AA sent me an apology email yesterday with an offer of miles credited to my account for the inconvenience.


- The weirdest part of the whole scenario was the instruction to cover your faces as opposed to keeping your hands in sight of law enforcement (I struggle to find a rationale for that under any circumstance).

- The instructions not to film also seem dubious. This is an excerpt from a DHS document outlining when agents CAN prohibit filming and I don't see how they are applicable here, unless they thought "sensitive" information would be recorded between the agents and the suspect...


An order to stop recording can be constitutionally imposed when an officer can reasonably conclude that the filming is subject to a reasonable time, place, or manner restriction. Reasonable? For one, an officer may have a reasonable expectation of privacy in what is being said. The federal wiretap statute for example would prohibit someone from using a sensitive audio recording device, like a parabolic microphone, to eavesdrop on the conversation of an officer and witness after the two separated themselves from the crowd and made other reasonable efforts to keep their conversation private.8

Even an open recording may be subject to a reasonable restriction. Since officers can control the movements of the occupants of a car during a traffic stop, ordering a passenger to get back in the car may be reasonable despite the passenger’s objection that “I can’t put you on the evening news from back there.” Some traffic stops, particularly when the detained individual is armed, might justify a safety measure - - for example, a command that bystanders disperse. And a preexisting statute, ordinance, or other published restriction may limit where someone

https://www.fletc.gov/sites/default/fil ... rmer15.pdf
 
nikeherc
Posts: 684
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2012 8:40 pm

Re: AA2289 Security Incident to MIA

Mon Jul 12, 2021 6:09 pm

One reason for banning recording is the need to protect the identities of the security force. No one has stated that they came in with their faces covered, so this might be a reasonable precaution. The same applies to having the passengers cover their faces. The same reasoning also applies to the actual tactics used by the security force.
 
Dutch
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2008 3:00 am

Re: AA2289 Security Incident to MIA

Mon Jul 12, 2021 6:41 pm

I think I over sensationalized in my first post and was not specific enough. I owe a few corrections and some additional info.
1. we turned RIGHT when we were taxiing towards Terminal D... a LH turn would have taken us downtown.
2. I went to the bathroom during descent and talked with a cabin crew member for a few seconds. I can guarantee that we were not in the "hands on head" phase... The situation may have been different in the rear cabin but I did not notice anything unusual.
3. The security teams may have also entered by 1R. I couldn't see. While completing entry, I DID NOT see the teams point weapons intentionally at me or anyone else... It was just an aggressive/loud entry and weapons were moving/waving around. My thought at the time was that any kids onboard could be forgiven for having a nightmare or two after this. The teams DID NOT have face coverings/masks.
4. I saw the person of interest when he was moved past me on the way up the aisle (accidentally peeking? between my fingers). He was not exhibiting ANY aggressive posturing (facial, verbal or physical). He had a very (sincere?) emotionally sad look with tears streaming down his face.
5. Although the AA staff were doing as best possible in the situation (they were very polite and helpful at D28) , an issue (area to improve) from my point of view is that the passengers were not met (by AA or police) when entering the terminal and we, coming out of a slightly stressful situation, were somewhat confused and unsure what to do for a short period.
6. Over riding feeling from me is that there was, or may have been, a threat to the the pax and aircraft and the authorities responded in a cohesive manner.... wouldn't have it any other way.
 
Vicenza
Posts: 407
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:21 pm

Re: AA2289 Security Incident to MIA

Mon Jul 12, 2021 6:48 pm

DLASFlyer wrote:
Obviously AA can "detain" you by not letting you off the plane. The telling people they can't film part I have a problem with. It's a public place. The police should know better than anyone that we are in an era with a right to film.


Inside an aircraft cannot be construed as a public place. It is private property....in this case the property of AA
 
Vicenza
Posts: 407
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:21 pm

Re: Passengers Forced To Put Hands On Head

Mon Jul 12, 2021 6:52 pm

planecane wrote:
rbavfan wrote:
planecane wrote:
How can they just detain all passengers after landing with no probable cause? I think I would have phoned an attorney immediately.


Thats why we are a sue happy society. We should be part of a solutions, not increase the problems


I wouldn't have called an attorney to sue. I would have called to find out if I can be legally detained with no probable cause so that I could get on with my day.


I think you'll find in the US that the magic words 'national security' would be probable cause enough.
 
hagerstrom
Posts: 9
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 10:28 pm

Re: Passengers Forced To Put Hands On Head

Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:01 pm

Dutch wrote:
@travelsonic. They were VERY specific that according to federal law (I can't remember the details) anyone who recorded events WOULD be subject to prosecution and fined some thousands of dollars... they said $1200 or $2400.
The threat was so specific that I stopped filming and have not posted video of the event. I am also surprised to see some short vids on twitter... I'm not from USA and don't understand the "rights" of government or pax!

If was a passenger on this flight I would hesitate to assert any rights during or after this incident because airlines have been known to ban passengers for life (with concomitant forfeiture of accumulated frequent flyer miles) on the most capricious of reasons, including vague “failure to comply with lawful instruction of crew members.”
It’s your word against theirs and they have the advantage in courts when they can assert their security policies in defense.
 
catiii
Posts: 3889
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

Re: Passengers Forced To Put Hands On Head

Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:31 pm

MD88CLE wrote:
Dutch wrote:
pointing assault rifles and screaming at passengers to place our hands on our FACES (from heads to our faces).


Conflicting and changing instructions from law enforcement in high stress situations where people have weapons pointed at them are how people get killed, as seen with the killing of Daniel Shaver and other incidents.

I also have to say that if I had a weapon pointed in my face like that, I would regard the people doing so as terrorists.


A completely unrelated and different situation. But ok...

I love all these keyboard warriors who are going to disarm and confront law enforcement agents on an airplane.
 
catiii
Posts: 3889
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

Re: AA2289 Security Incident to MIA

Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:32 pm

Dutch wrote:
I think I over sensationalized in my first post and was not specific enough. I owe a few corrections and some additional info.
1. we turned RIGHT when we were taxiing towards Terminal D... a LH turn would have taken us downtown.
2. I went to the bathroom during descent and talked with a cabin crew member for a few seconds. I can guarantee that we were not in the "hands on head" phase... The situation may have been different in the rear cabin but I did not notice anything unusual.
3. The security teams may have also entered by 1R. I couldn't see. While completing entry, I DID NOT see the teams point weapons intentionally at me or anyone else... It was just an aggressive/loud entry and weapons were moving/waving around. My thought at the time was that any kids onboard could be forgiven for having a nightmare or two after this. The teams DID NOT have face coverings/masks.
4. I saw the person of interest when he was moved past me on the way up the aisle (accidentally peeking? between my fingers). He was not exhibiting ANY aggressive posturing (facial, verbal or physical). He had a very (sincere?) emotionally sad look with tears streaming down his face.
5. Although the AA staff were doing as best possible in the situation (they were very polite and helpful at D28) , an issue (area to improve) from my point of view is that the passengers were not met (by AA or police) when entering the terminal and we, coming out of a slightly stressful situation, were somewhat confused and unsure what to do for a short period.
6. Over riding feeling from me is that there was, or may have been, a threat to the the pax and aircraft and the authorities responded in a cohesive manner.... wouldn't have it any other way.


Funny how the details have changed so substantively. It went from storming the airplane "pointing assault rifles" to not being the case.
 
Airlines0613
Posts: 226
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2016 6:06 am

Re: Passengers Forced To Put Hands On Head

Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:58 pm

phlswaflyer wrote:
Airlines0613 wrote:
phlswaflyer wrote:

.....love the armchair lawyers - you would have NO case. NONE. Exactly what and why would you think you would recover something because you had to put your hands on your head? Brave guy to have a standoff with FEDS. I want to see you do what you said - I'll get some popcorn now.

Obviously you must have studied Floridian Law in order for you to state such a bold statement as well. If you aren’t a lawyer yourself, you’re a hypocrite.

Anyways, if you look at the multiple cases of unlawful detention, no matter what the victim does, all charges are dropped and the feds settle. So yes, he does have a case against the airline and feds if they decide to arrest him.


oh yeah - if YOU are a lawyer ( which I doubt) FLA law is not the law, it's FED law. and statute. Nice try. Play again next week.

Damn, you sound like a teen when it comes to arguments. Lol

I never stated I was an attorney, just called you out for debunking people when you have no legal education, thus calling you a hypocrite.

Anyways, there will be lawsuits, just watch. Even if it is a quick cash grab, they’ll still win. It always happens. It’s just a matter of time.
 
Dutch
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2008 3:00 am

Re: AA2289 Security Incident to MIA

Mon Jul 12, 2021 10:15 pm

@catii. Yes I corrected what I said. Prefer to do that than not. I made a subtle but important distinction. I said they were not pointed INTENTIONALLY. I had more than a couple pointed in my direction. I don't like being on the down range end of any weapon. That is why I made the initial comment.... and I can assure you that in anybody's language (even though I didn't use the term), the entry by the law enforcement personnel would be considered "storming". They didn't "casually stroll" on. Should have been there! It wasn't "fun"!
 
MD88CLE
Posts: 113
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2012 1:16 am

Re: Passengers Forced To Put Hands On Head

Mon Jul 12, 2021 11:02 pm

catiii wrote:
I love all these keyboard warriors who are going to disarm and confront law enforcement agents on an airplane.


Who said anything of the sort?
 
travelsonic
Posts: 158
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2007 8:59 am

Re: Passengers Forced To Put Hands On Head

Mon Jul 12, 2021 11:06 pm

hagerstrom wrote:
It’s your word against theirs .


To be fair, not if you know how to be covert - and the way it is handled allows you to leave things behind in a way where it being recorded wouldn't be discovered (which seems to be the case here - that they left their belongings behind when brought out in groups IIRC).

Not saying I'd do it, but here you'd definitely be able to get evidence if ballsy enough (or stupidly crazy enough?)
 
ASMVPGOLD
Posts: 60
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 7:05 am

Re: AA2289 Security Incident to MIA

Mon Jul 12, 2021 11:39 pm

For everyone questioning why they continued to MIA.... it might have simply been a situation where they didn't think the suspect was an immediate threat to the plane until he was made aware that the feds were on to him. Sounds like the flight was normal till on the ground, minimizing the time the suspect knew something was up. They came onto the place rather quickly to get to him before he could take any sort of action.

I (in non-covid days) spend my time on airplanes and while this event might have gotten my HR up a bit, I would have no issues with how it was managed. I will let the feds figure out when that type of response is needed. Even if it was precautionary... someone made the call that this was the best course of action to protect the passengers and crew. They could have sided with "let's not risk upsetting the passengers" and then something could have gone wrong on that plane. We would the be reading stories and talking about the tragic AA flight where some guy went crazy on and the feds knew he might be in a position to hurt others and they took no action. Which one do you prefer?
 
DenverTed
Posts: 750
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:12 pm

Re: AA2289 Security Incident to MIA

Tue Jul 13, 2021 12:28 am

Nobody expects the raid on Entebbe.
 
IPFreely
Posts: 2657
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 8:26 am

Re: Passengers Forced To Put Hands On Head

Tue Jul 13, 2021 12:44 am

SuseJ772 wrote:
Is anyone else amazed this hasn't been picked up on the news yet? I feel like Dutch's account here is getting missed. So far I can only find one Daily Mail and one Texas News Today articles and both are just focused on the hands on the head thing. Which totally misses the real story here. This feels like a way more important story than just "some yokel got drunk and tried to open the door," which gets covered en masse.


Which of Dutch's accounts are getting missed by the news? Because they're basically two totally different stories.

What has been published (both by credible and non-credible sources) are such a wide variety of different stories its at the point where most people won't care or won't believe anything.

catiii wrote:
I love all these keyboard warriors who are going to disarm and confront law enforcement agents on an airplane.


Happens pretty much every time there's an incident like this. And most of us know if these keyboard warriors were ever present at an incident like this the only thing they would do is wet their pants.

phlswaflyer wrote:
oh yeah - if YOU are a lawyer ( which I doubt) FLA law is not the law, it's FED law. and statute. Nice try. Play again next week.


I don't believe he or she ever claimed to be a lawyer. And when someone uses the term "Floridian Law", there is no doubt. :D
 
User avatar
Chasensfo
Posts: 333
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2013 2:07 am

Re: AA2289 Security Incident to MIA

Tue Jul 13, 2021 1:27 am

In my time as a gate agent, I had several inbound flights that had police hiding in the jetway waiting to nab somebody for something, usually I'd never have any idea what that something was. But every single time, all pax got off like normal and the cops knew who they were waiting for. Storming the aircraft, not allowing filming, dogs sniffing ALL the pax, automatic weapons ready, dogs sniffing all the bags...I wonder what the threat was on this flight. I was on duty at SFO during a Philippine Airlines bomb threat at SFO, landed 28R and exited right and held by 19R. Without going into exact details, it was handled very differently, and people didn't have guns in their faces. It really makes me wonder what the issue was here as I doubt a simple, run of the mill bomb threat would have this reaction

If years of airline customer service and ops taught me anything, transparency is key. You'd think once all is said and done the airline could then just be honest with pax about why they were trapped in MIA for hours, if not a day or two due to missed connections, as a result of this mess. Though as others have said, AA was surely just following direct orders and didn't "decide" to do any of this.
 
catiii
Posts: 3889
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

Re: Passengers Forced To Put Hands On Head

Tue Jul 13, 2021 3:29 am

MD88CLE wrote:
catiii wrote:
I love all these keyboard warriors who are going to disarm and confront law enforcement agents on an airplane.


Who said anything of the sort?


If I deemed someone onboard an aircraft to be a terrorist that's what I would do in the post 9/11 world. Your post was that you would deem someone who pointed a gun at you onboard to be a terrorist. In this case, the "terrorist" is a federal agent or local law enforcement personnel. Ergo...
 
capejet
Posts: 159
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2012 9:08 pm

Re: AA2289 Security Incident to MIA

Tue Jul 13, 2021 1:48 pm

I have to laugh at all the armchair lawyers who think passengers can sue over this incident. Too bad the odds of this happening while you all are on a flight are slim. But why don't you go ahead and sue the TSA next time you go through airport security. After all, they made you empty your pockets, they made you take off your shoes, they opened your suitcase and looked through your belongings, and oh my gosh, they made you RAISE YOUR HANDS OVER YOUR HEAD when you went through the body scanner.
 
chonetsao
Posts: 989
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2005 3:55 pm

Re: AA2289 Security Incident to MIA

Tue Jul 13, 2021 3:26 pm

Chasensfo wrote:
In my time as a gate agent, I had several inbound flights that had police hiding in the jetway waiting to nab somebody for something, usually I'd never have any idea what that something was. But every single time, all pax got off like normal and the cops knew who they were waiting for. Storming the aircraft, not allowing filming, dogs sniffing ALL the pax, automatic weapons ready, dogs sniffing all the bags...I wonder what the threat was on this flight. I was on duty at SFO during a Philippine Airlines bomb threat at SFO, landed 28R and exited right and held by 19R. Without going into exact details, it was handled very differently, and people didn't have guns in their faces. It really makes me wonder what the issue was here as I doubt a simple, run of the mill bomb threat would have this reaction

If years of airline customer service and ops taught me anything, transparency is key. You'd think once all is said and done the airline could then just be honest with pax about why they were trapped in MIA for hours, if not a day or two due to missed connections, as a result of this mess. Though as others have said, AA was surely just following direct orders and didn't "decide" to do any of this.


Thank you for your post. It is the information we need here. Now hopefully more posters with personal experience can share theirs here.
 
FlyEndeavorAir
Posts: 78
Joined: Sat May 15, 2021 10:49 pm

Re: AA2289 Security Incident to MIA

Tue Jul 13, 2021 4:40 pm

capejet wrote:
I have to laugh at all the armchair lawyers who think passengers can sue over this incident. Too bad the odds of this happening while you all are on a flight are slim. But why don't you go ahead and sue the TSA next time you go through airport security. After all, they made you empty your pockets, they made you take off your shoes, they opened your suitcase and looked through your belongings, and oh my gosh, they made you RAISE YOUR HANDS OVER YOUR HEAD when you went through the body scanner.


I have Pre-Check, never have to "put my hands over my head", and in the event they pull me to go through it, I claim (truthfully) I have a medical issue raising my hands and they just give me more swabs/patdowns.

Despite the outraged bootlickers in this thread screaming it I never mentioned suing, I just mentioned I'm not raising my arms. If they deem that to be a threat, that's their problem.
 
IPFreely
Posts: 2657
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 8:26 am

Re: AA2289 Security Incident to MIA

Tue Jul 13, 2021 4:56 pm

FlyEndeavorAir wrote:
Ha, I'd tell them no way, let them arrest me, and let my lawyer have a field day with them.


FlyEndeavorAir wrote:
Despite the outraged bootlickers in this thread screaming it I never mentioned suing, I just mentioned I'm not raising my arms.


If your lawyer is going to have a field day and not sue anyone, what is he or she going to do on this field day?
 
FlyEndeavorAir
Posts: 78
Joined: Sat May 15, 2021 10:49 pm

Re: AA2289 Security Incident to MIA

Tue Jul 13, 2021 5:01 pm

IPFreely wrote:
FlyEndeavorAir wrote:
Ha, I'd tell them no way, let them arrest me, and let my lawyer have a field day with them.


FlyEndeavorAir wrote:
Despite the outraged bootlickers in this thread screaming it I never mentioned suing, I just mentioned I'm not raising my arms.


If your lawyer is going to have a field day and not sue anyone, what is he or she going to do on this field day?


Not have criminal charges filed against me for non-crimes.

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