Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
TWA772LR wrote:Slightly OT, KLM used to have rifles in the survival gear of their polar flights. Taking it a few steps further, Soviet cosmonauts had, I believe, sawed off shotguns in the capsule Incase they landed in the wilderness of Siberia and it took longer than expected to be picked up.
Aesma wrote:Are there any country other than the US that ever did this ? Talking about guns for "defense", not survival gear.
N1120A wrote:The US has the FFDO program, which is completely superfluous and unnecessary, but there is a fairly sizeable minority of pilots in the US flying around armed.
11C wrote:N1120A wrote:The US has the FFDO program, which is completely superfluous and unnecessary, but there is a fairly sizeable minority of pilots in the US flying around armed.
Although I can see why you may feel this way, having a variety of countermeasures is probably a good idea. The 9/11 attacks were not foreseen, and the simplicity of the plan made it effective. Who knows what plan some weirdo may come up with in the future.
USAirALB wrote:I seem to recall reading that either Finnair or SAS (or both) carried “enhanced” Arctic survival equipment on board their long-haul aircraft. I can’t remember what specifically is carried or where I read this (I know survival suits for everyone was one piece of equipment) but the source hinted that shot guns were also carried on board.
CFWAD wrote:I remember after 9/11 this became a much larger issue in the U.S. specifically. There was one flight that the captain inadvertently (?) discharged and it actually protruded the fuselage while in the flight deck.
N1120A wrote:The US has the FFDO program, which is completely superfluous and unnecessary, but there is a fairly sizeable minority of pilots in the US flying around armed.
TWA772LR wrote:Taking it a few steps further, Soviet cosmonauts had, I believe, sawed off shotguns in the capsule Incase they landed in the wilderness of Siberia and it took longer than expected to be picked up.
JetBuddy wrote:USAirALB wrote:I seem to recall reading that either Finnair or SAS (or both) carried “enhanced” Arctic survival equipment on board their long-haul aircraft. I can’t remember what specifically is carried or where I read this (I know survival suits for everyone was one piece of equipment) but the source hinted that shot guns were also carried on board.
SAS does carry survival suits for everyone, and a lot of different survival gear, potable water and so on.
(Not accessible from the passenger cabin).
N1120A wrote:The US has the FFDO program, which is completely superfluous and unnecessary, but there is a fairly sizeable minority of pilots in the US flying around armed.
kiowa wrote:N1120A wrote:The US has the FFDO program, which is completely superfluous and unnecessary, but there is a fairly sizeable minority of pilots in the US flying around armed.
I would argue that the Air Marshalls are a waste and that the FFDO program is a much better “bang for the buck”
joeycapps wrote:CFWAD wrote:I remember after 9/11 this became a much larger issue in the U.S. specifically. There was one flight that the captain inadvertently (?) discharged and it actually protruded the fuselage while in the flight deck.
Don't quote me on this, but I seem to remember (from memory) that it was a USAirways A3--, and what made it even worse was that the discharge occurred on final descent, when the firearm should have been locked away because - duh, you're on final.
But by all means, correct me, this is from memory and since I'm at work, I don't have time to deepdive and confirm. That, or I've got a crazy imagination LOL.
N1120A wrote:11C wrote:N1120A wrote:The US has the FFDO program, which is completely superfluous and unnecessary, but there is a fairly sizeable minority of pilots in the US flying around armed.
Although I can see why you may feel this way, having a variety of countermeasures is probably a good idea. The 9/11 attacks were not foreseen, and the simplicity of the plan made it effective. Who knows what plan some weirdo may come up with in the future.
20 years later, are we still pretending that? What if an FFDO ended up like Andreas Lubitz, and ended up shooting their fellow pilot and crashing the airplane? Or simply got macho with someone on their layover? Or was cleaning their gun in their room and it went off? Unlikely, right? Sure, but probably MORE likely than someone actually being able to hijack the now locked and hardened flight deck doors on airplanes full of people who are more than happy to duct tape some dip who doesn't want to comply with mask rules to a chair, let alone what they'll do to any "weirdo" who decides to attempt the futile behavior of mid-flight hijacking.
To answer one poster - FFDO's have intervened in exactly zero hijackings since 9/11. Not to mention the only guy the FAM's have "stopped" was a mentally ill senior citizen at MIA...
Max Q wrote:JetBuddy wrote:USAirALB wrote:I seem to recall reading that either Finnair or SAS (or both) carried “enhanced” Arctic survival equipment on board their long-haul aircraft. I can’t remember what specifically is carried or where I read this (I know survival suits for everyone was one piece of equipment) but the source hinted that shot guns were also carried on board.
SAS does carry survival suits for everyone, and a lot of different survival gear, potable water and so on.
(Not accessible from the passenger cabin).
If it’s not accessible from the passenger cabin what’s the point of carrying it ?!
Shrewfly wrote:TWA772LR wrote:Taking it a few steps further, Soviet cosmonauts had, I believe, sawed off shotguns in the capsule Incase they landed in the wilderness of Siberia and it took longer than expected to be picked up.
Slightly off topic. But I saw the Russian capsule that took UK astronaut TIm Peake to the ISS. On the side of it, in English and Russian, is written many times "Human Cosmonauts on board" in both Russian and English
According to the exhibitors, this is a hangover from the days of the space race, when the fear was that if the capsule crashlanded somewhere in remote Russia, off-grid locals might open it up and attack them as aliens. So those weapons might not have been just for protection from bears or for hunting!
JetBuddy wrote:Max Q wrote:JetBuddy wrote:
SAS does carry survival suits for everyone, and a lot of different survival gear, potable water and so on.
(Not accessible from the passenger cabin).
If it’s not accessible from the passenger cabin what’s the point of carrying it ?!
You don't need it unless you've crash landed somewhere. That's the point. The survival suits are for cold weather protection.
Max Q wrote:JetBuddy wrote:Max Q wrote:
If it’s not accessible from the passenger cabin what’s the point of carrying it ?!
You don't need it unless you've crash landed somewhere. That's the point. The survival suits are for cold weather protection.
Yes that’s why it’s called survival equipment, so where is it stored ?
If you’ve crash landed somewhere and it’s in the cargo compartment for example you’re out of luck, you’re probably not going to get to be able to get to it when you need it most
That’s my point
FlapOperator wrote:To be honest, if there is a case where survival equipment is just gas you wish you had, imagine the utility of a shotgun, axe and fire starting kit to the average first class passenger from Boston or European flight attendant. I know there are regulatory compliance requirements, bureaucratic inertia, etc. But its the extreme of fantasy to think that the majority of people are going to crack open the survival kit and play some combination of Paul Bunyan and Annie Oakley.
The time to learn those skills was yesterday when you are in a survival situation, and the amount of actual survival training the vast majority of people receive is next to zero.
FlapOperator wrote:kiowa wrote:N1120A wrote:The US has the FFDO program, which is completely superfluous and unnecessary, but there is a fairly sizeable minority of pilots in the US flying around armed.
I would argue that the Air Marshalls are a waste and that the FFDO program is a much better “bang for the buck”
Its budget dust in the TSA/DHS budget, let alone the larger federal budget. The cost is essentially a small training and administrative cohort, weapons and ammo.
JetBuddy wrote:Max Q wrote:JetBuddy wrote:
You don't need it unless you've crash landed somewhere. That's the point. The survival suits are for cold weather protection.
Yes that’s why it’s called survival equipment, so where is it stored ?
If you’ve crash landed somewhere and it’s in the cargo compartment for example you’re out of luck, you’re probably not going to get to be able to get to it when you need it most
That’s my point
I can't tell you where it is. That's the point.
G200Pilot123 wrote:Ages ago (before the FAMS) a lot of pilots used to carry firearms to prevent hijackings (I understand that some in the US still do), is there any other country in the world where this is still the case or is the US unique in that sense?
MohawkWeekend wrote:With the trend of bad behavior onboard flights, has there ever been a case where an air marshal intervened? I recall stories of off duty law enforcement getting involved but not air marshals.
Regarding firearms onboard, companies (Byrna is one) have developed a series of non-lethal hand guns (air powered) which fire a slug or a pepper ball. Not sure thats the answer but I wonder if it's considered as an option.
casperCA wrote:MohawkWeekend wrote:With the trend of bad behavior onboard flights, has there ever been a case where an air marshal intervened? I recall stories of off duty law enforcement getting involved but not air marshals.
Regarding firearms onboard, companies (Byrna is one) have developed a series of non-lethal hand guns (air powered) which fire a slug or a pepper ball. Not sure thats the answer but I wonder if it's considered as an option.
In addition to not arming pilots I don't think many countries have an apatite for armed law enforcement on flights.
In the case of Canada it has been limited to two very specific cases:
- The RCMP (similar to what you call the FBI in the US) has specially trained officers on certain flights. This came into existing just after 9/11 as it was a condition on Air Canada flights to DCA imposed by the US. I don't know if it has ever expanded beyond that one route or not.
- The Canadian Air Force operates VIP aircraft for the PM, GG etc. They are protected by Military Police while on those aircraft.
I think the Tokyo Convention and a host of others governs what they can do as law enforcement on an international flight.