Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 16327
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Ryanair to hire 2000 pilots in the next 3 years

Thu Jul 15, 2021 12:34 pm

Noshow wrote:
You gain experience and flight hours fast. FR even has a history of fast progress to the left seat. It's not all bad. After a few years pilots can move on to legacy airlines if they want and they do it.
Try to start as a pilot with any legacy airline as a newbie for comparison.


Who care is they “gain experience and flight hours fast”, that straight away tells me you have no idea about fatigue management. Do you understand that “flight hours” is less than half the hours any pilot speds “at work”. The majority of time at the behest of the employer is unpaid.

If they leave FR as a captain and you don’t join BA as a captain, you go to the bottom of the list at BA again. All those hours and 737 type rating is all irrelevant to BA. All BA wants to see is a pilot with an ATPL, class 1 medial and the right to work.

Besides the masters university qualification being quoted on here is more akin to the ATPL theoretical knowledge and exams, a masters in itself has no practical use in day to day work.

This overcharging of cadets for type ratings is like a hospital saying to a newly hired board registered Radiographer that they have to pay for their own training on the CT and MRI equipment used at that hospital.

If you have a masters, you have that for life, a 737 rating is only as good as long as 737s are in service. I would wager FR will start replacing 737s with another type within 10 years. I firmly believe the 737Max is the end of the line for the 737,,so essentially it’s a worthless investment.
 
Noshow
Posts: 2626
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: Ryanair to hire 2000 pilots in the next 3 years

Fri Jul 16, 2021 12:01 pm

Bit offensive aren't we?
The days at work and flight hours are very much scheduled according to regulations. FR or not they can not schedule more per day or year than is permitted.
My point is at FR you don't end up as second officer doing one landing per month if you are lucky. You fly at least three sectors per work day and monitor another three.
 
Vicenza
Posts: 377
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:21 pm

Re: Ryanair to hire 2000 pilots in the next 3 years

Fri Jul 16, 2021 1:52 pm

zeke wrote:
Noshow wrote:
You gain experience and flight hours fast. FR even has a history of fast progress to the left seat. It's not all bad. After a few years pilots can move on to legacy airlines if they want and they do it.
Try to start as a pilot with any legacy airline as a newbie for comparison.


Who care is they “gain experience and flight hours fast”, that straight away tells me you have no idea about fatigue management. Do you understand that “flight hours” is less than half the hours any pilot speds “at work”. The majority of time at the behest of the employer is unpaid.

If they leave FR as a captain and you don’t join BA as a captain, you go to the bottom of the list at BA again. All those hours and 737 type rating is all irrelevant to BA. All BA wants to see is a pilot with an ATPL, class 1 medial and the right to work.

Besides the masters university qualification being quoted on here is more akin to the ATPL theoretical knowledge and exams, a masters in itself has no practical use in day to day work.

This overcharging of cadets for type ratings is like a hospital saying to a newly hired board registered Radiographer that they have to pay for their own training on the CT and MRI equipment used at that hospital.

If you have a masters, you have that for life, a 737 rating is only as good as long as 737s are in service. I would wager FR will start replacing 737s with another type within 10 years. I firmly believe the 737Max is the end of the line for the 737,,so essentially it’s a worthless investment.


I would respectively disagree Zeke (and most unusually with yourself). Ryanair do not fly either widebodies or long haul, but they rigorously adhere to all regulations. I'm surprised, and curious, at you saying the training is a 'worthless investment. Whether Ryanair replace 737's is surely largely irrelevant as once a pilot has the 737 type rating he/she can fly for airline flying them. If CX replace a type it doesn't make your type rating worthless with any other airline.
 
bigb
Posts: 1417
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 4:30 pm

Re: Ryanair to hire 2000 pilots in the next 3 years

Fri Jul 16, 2021 2:08 pm

Vicenza wrote:
zeke wrote:
Noshow wrote:
You gain experience and flight hours fast. FR even has a history of fast progress to the left seat. It's not all bad. After a few years pilots can move on to legacy airlines if they want and they do it.
Try to start as a pilot with any legacy airline as a newbie for comparison.


Who care is they “gain experience and flight hours fast”, that straight away tells me you have no idea about fatigue management. Do you understand that “flight hours” is less than half the hours any pilot speds “at work”. The majority of time at the behest of the employer is unpaid.

If they leave FR as a captain and you don’t join BA as a captain, you go to the bottom of the list at BA again. All those hours and 737 type rating is all irrelevant to BA. All BA wants to see is a pilot with an ATPL, class 1 medial and the right to work.

Besides the masters university qualification being quoted on here is more akin to the ATPL theoretical knowledge and exams, a masters in itself has no practical use in day to day work.

This overcharging of cadets for type ratings is like a hospital saying to a newly hired board registered Radiographer that they have to pay for their own training on the CT and MRI equipment used at that hospital.

If you have a masters, you have that for life, a 737 rating is only as good as long as 737s are in service. I would wager FR will start replacing 737s with another type within 10 years. I firmly believe the 737Max is the end of the line for the 737,,so essentially it’s a worthless investment.


I would respectively disagree Zeke (and most unusually with yourself). Ryanair do not fly either widebodies or long haul, but they rigorously adhere to all regulations. I'm surprised, and curious, at you saying the training is a 'worthless investment. Whether Ryanair replace 737's is surely largely irrelevant as once a pilot has the 737 type rating he/she can fly for airline flying them. If CX replace a type it doesn't make your type rating worthless with any other airline.


You missed his point about the value of the type rating? Good example would be DC-9 type rating, what good does that do someone? His point was that a type rating value has a shelve life while the type is being flown worldwide in good
numbers. Unlike a Master’s degree value really doesn’t go away at all...
 
SIVB
Posts: 32
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:22 am

Re: Ryanair to hire 2000 pilots in the next 3 years

Fri Jul 16, 2021 3:06 pm

I think lots of people still believe that all Ryanair pilots are contractors. This has changed in recent years, with most pilots being hired directly by the company and paying local taxes (depending on the country).

Full disclosure, I’m a captain at Ryanair, and it’s not a bad place to be. I joined at a time (not long ago but before COVID) when the airline was hiring direct entry captains, providing the type rating with a 3-year bond (no salary deductions) and a full salary from day 1 of ground school. I understand that this is not the deal anymore, but with the pandemic who can blame them?

Depending on which country you’re based in, salaries are pretty decent when compared with other European carriers. There are Collective Labour Agreements and union representation in almost all of the west European countries. The roster is great, 5/4 with every night at your home base, plus lots of annual leave. Matching Pension contributions are much better than in my previous outfit.

I’m sure that other airlines have better overall packages, especially in the US. But many things have changed in Ryanair since 2017, however not all of them will last unfortunately as COVID is giving management again the upper hand.

IMHO, Ryanair hiring 2,000 pilots in the next 3 years is a hopeful and positive development.
 
Fliplot
Posts: 561
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2019 2:23 pm

Re: Ryanair to hire 2000 pilots in the next 3 years

Fri Jul 16, 2021 3:29 pm

Finally someone who knows what they ste talking about! And it doesn't sound anything what a lot of uou were suggesting.

It is madness to suggest that any new employer will not take account of hours gained! If an employer changes the type of aircraft is flys then they will pay for the training. If it is your choice to change type then uou pay usually. I fly with FR frequently. I consider them to be safe, efficient and above all consistent everything a passenger requires

Congratulations to them for offering pilots continued opportunities! Which legacy carrier can do the same?
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 16327
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Ryanair to hire 2000 pilots in the next 3 years

Fri Jul 16, 2021 3:39 pm

bigb wrote:
You missed his point about the value of the type rating? Good example would be DC-9 type rating, what good does that do someone? His point was that a type rating value has a shelve life while the type is being flown worldwide in good
numbers. Unlike a Master’s degree value really doesn’t go away at all...


This is correct, we are talking about someone in the early 20ies that has probably spent around 120,000 euros on an integrated CPL with frozen ATPL course, FR they want they to pay an additional 30,000 euros for a type rating.

That like Boeing being told we know you just spend 20 million building that aircraft, how about you pay FR 5 million so we can fly it. Its okay, the aircraft will be getting lots of flying experience.

SIVB wrote:
Full disclosure, I’m a captain at Ryanair, and it’s not a bad place to be. I joined at a time (not long ago but before COVID) when the airline was hiring direct entry captains, providing the type rating with a 3-year bond (no salary deductions) and a full salary from day 1 of ground school. I understand that this is not the deal anymore, but with the pandemic who can blame them?


You are in a different situation, they didn't exploit any money out of you as you were a DEC. Not like you will get a DEC anywhere else.
 
Fliplot
Posts: 561
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2019 2:23 pm

Re: Ryanair to hire 2000 pilots in the next 3 years

Fri Jul 16, 2021 3:49 pm

What is your point about a DEC? I dont understand your comment!
 
Vicenza
Posts: 377
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:21 pm

Re: Ryanair to hire 2000 pilots in the next 3 years

Fri Jul 16, 2021 4:51 pm

bigb wrote:
pilot has the 737 type rating he/she can fly for airline flying them. If CX replace a type it doesn't make your type rating worthless with any other airline.


You missed his point about the value of the type rating? Good example would be DC-9 type rating, what good does that do someone? His point was that a type rating value has a shelve life while the type is being flown worldwide in good
numbers. Unlike a Master’s degree value really doesn’t go away at all...[/quote]

I missed no point at all. Your 'good' example is rather pointless in the context being discussed. Unlike the DC-9, the 737 will be flown worldwide in great numbers for decades yet. So, with 'shelf life' all is really being done is playing with words. I see no correlation at all with the example of a Master's degree
 
Vicenza
Posts: 377
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:21 pm

Re: Ryanair to hire 2000 pilots in the next 3 years

Fri Jul 16, 2021 5:04 pm

zeke wrote:
[

This is correct, we are talking about someone in the early 20ies that has probably spent around 120,000 euros on an integrated CPL with frozen ATPL course, FR they want they to pay an additional 30,000 euros for a type rating.


Again, I disagree and I feel like we are looking at something from entirely ways. With the amount of redundant pilots currently I would bet a fair amount of those hired will already have a 737 type rating. I seriously doubt that 2000 fresh, green pilots are going to be hired. Equally, a pilot, knowing that FR only fly 737's, who does not have that rating should certainly expect to pay for it himself. I fail to see why FR should pay it in these circumstances


[/quote]You are in a different situation, they didn't exploit any money out of you as you were a DEC. Not like you will get a DEC anywhere else.[/quote]

I don't see any exploitation at all. One would sensibly expect anyone applying for any job, either meets the minimum requirements for that job (in this case a 737 type rating), or pays to obtain that minimum requirement.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 26580
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Ryanair to hire 2000 pilots in the next 3 years

Fri Jul 16, 2021 6:59 pm

bigb wrote:
You missed his point about the value of the type rating? Good example would be DC-9 type rating, what good does that do someone? His point was that a type rating value has a shelve life while the type is being flown worldwide in good
numbers. Unlike a Master’s degree value really doesn’t go away at all...

I think a Master's degree's value does go away pretty steeply. Employers look at any/all real world work experience above whatever academic qualifications you may have (at least in my field, high tech, in my country, the US). I'd say its "value" relative to real world work experience has dropped by half three years after you've earned it, 80% by five years. I say this after having interviewed lots of candidates, and having interviewed for positions while holding a Master's degree.

I'd also say it's not that unusual for employers of professionals to pay tuition for Master's degree programs for people willing to study on their own time. It surely was happening in the mid 2010s at my last job with a household name type of corporation, and I took full advantage of it back in my day.

Students have a pretty good grip on all of the above. They know what sacrifices need to be made, and what perks may or may not be available. Just check in to any of the newbie forums and there's all kinds of banter on the ins and outs.

I see lots of evidence that parents also are pretty well informed. I think one of the reasons US airlines haven't been able to cheapen terms and conditions excessively is because parents are taking a lot more convincing that they should support their children when they seek to go down a path that will require six figure investments before they earn a dime, then several years more support till they are earning a living wage never mind repaying the investment in education.
 
SteelChair
Posts: 1656
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:37 am

Re: Ryanair to hire 2000 pilots in the next 3 years

Fri Jul 16, 2021 7:27 pm

I'm quite surprised that they have no trouble gaining applications.
 
bigb
Posts: 1417
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 4:30 pm

Re: Ryanair to hire 2000 pilots in the next 3 years

Fri Jul 16, 2021 7:35 pm

Revelation wrote:
bigb wrote:
You missed his point about the value of the type rating? Good example would be DC-9 type rating, what good does that do someone? His point was that a type rating value has a shelve life while the type is being flown worldwide in good
numbers. Unlike a Master’s degree value really doesn’t go away at all...

I think a Master's degree's value does go away pretty steeply. Employers look at any/all real world work experience above whatever academic qualifications you may have (at least in my field, high tech, in my country, the US). I'd say its "value" relative to real world work experience has dropped by half three years after you've earned it, 80% by five years. I say this after having interviewed lots of candidates, and having interviewed for positions while holding a Master's degree.

I'd also say it's not that unusual for employers of professionals to pay tuition for Master's degree programs for people willing to study on their own time. It surely was happening in the mid 2010s at my last job with a household name type of corporation, and I took full advantage of it back in my day.

Students have a pretty good grip on all of the above. They know what sacrifices need to be made, and what perks may or may not be available. Just check in to any of the newbie forums and there's all kinds of banter on the ins and outs.

I see lots of evidence that parents also are pretty well informed. I think one of the reasons US airlines haven't been able to cheapen terms and conditions excessively is because parents are taking a lot more convincing that they should support their children when they seek to go down a path that will require six figure investments before they earn a dime, then several years more support till they are earning a living wage never mind repaying the investment in education.


Not disagreeing one bit, my wife employer is reimburses and over tuition assistance to get her Masters. In the US, it’s standard for employers to cover type ratings as well as that is part of running their business. In return, year 1 pay is low. You already have folks shelling out more that 100k on flight training just to get the required certificates and ratings just to enter into commercial flying. I think it’s a fair expectation to have operators cover and incorporate the type rating rating into the new hire training process. Hell, if the operator is concerned about folks leaving after getting the type, have the employees sign some form of training contract for the first two years.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of desperate folks out there who will buy their type ratings.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 26580
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Ryanair to hire 2000 pilots in the next 3 years

Fri Jul 16, 2021 9:52 pm

SteelChair wrote:
I'm quite surprised that they have no trouble gaining applications.

I'm kinda surprised parents spend five if not six figure sums to help their children earn other kinds of specializations, but then again I'm not a parent.

bigb wrote:
Not disagreeing one bit, my wife employer is reimburses and over tuition assistance to get her Masters. In the US, it’s standard for employers to cover type ratings as well as that is part of running their business. In return, year 1 pay is low. You already have folks shelling out more that 100k on flight training just to get the required certificates and ratings just to enter into commercial flying. I think it’s a fair expectation to have operators cover and incorporate the type rating rating into the new hire training process. Hell, if the operator is concerned about folks leaving after getting the type, have the employees sign some form of training contract for the first two years.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of desperate folks out there who will buy their type ratings.

Thanks for the post. I agree, the employer should be expecting to pay for specialized training, yet the employer should be able to protect itself from employees who would just walk as soon as they acquired the specialized training.

I find it objectionable that FR and others such as Lionair have turned training into a profit center, but I also find it objectionable that we have universities that are also profit centers. Some of the salaries of university executives are absurd.
 
JibberJim
Posts: 204
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2016 1:33 pm

Re: Ryanair to hire 2000 pilots in the next 3 years

Sat Jul 17, 2021 9:49 am

zeke wrote:
What happens in the long run is these contractors have not received employee contributions to retirement schemes, when they go to retire have no retirement fund, s it is left to the public to fund their retirement. This is fundamentally wrong in my view.


It's unlikely in most of the EU or UK that the contractor could sensibly pay themselves in a way so as to avoid saving for retirement, it would simply be so tax inefficient that they'd lose money today, let alone in total lifetime.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 14664
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Ryanair to hire 2000 pilots in the next 3 years

Sat Jul 17, 2021 10:28 am

I heard on the radio the other day that technical skills lose value after 18 months. The advantage of a diploma isn't necessarily what you learn, but the fact it proves you can learn.

My company spends 5-10K a year on my technical training (and I don't even have a Master's), some of which it must do so by law. With my salary I definitely couldn't afford that. Now if you pay me 20K more but I have to pay for my training, we have a deal !
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 16327
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Ryanair to hire 2000 pilots in the next 3 years

Sat Jul 17, 2021 10:31 am

JibberJim wrote:
It's unlikely in most of the EU or UK that the contractor could sensibly pay themselves in a way so as to avoid saving for retirement, it would simply be so tax inefficient that they'd lose money today, let alone in total lifetime.


I have seen being discussed in the courts many times, it is in my view exploiting employees just like payment of training and uniforms which takes away from the employees long term retirement savings. In my view they count on the employees not having the funds to challenge the employer in court.

They call it shiny jet syndrome, pilots tripping over themselves to secure a job, justifying to themselves the short term loss in income for a job, taking out loans to cover training etc. It just doesn't get better. Then when it comes to retirement, their funds are just not there.

"Under Spanish law, a contractor does not enjoy the same workers’ rights as an employee and the airline does not have to contribute to the worker’s social security payments."

from https://www.reuters.com/article/ryanair ... SL8N1W539O

"Pilot or L.L.C.?
When Robertus Van Boekel applied for a pilot’s job at Ryanair in 2009, he interviewed at Brookfield Aviation, a British personnel agency.

Ryanair rarely hired new pilots directly. Instead, they were told to take the unusual step of applying to Brookfield or McGinley Aviation, another British recruiter, and declare themselves as self-employed.

Brookfield handed Mr. Van Boekel, who was based in Belgium, a list of Irish accounting firms and told him to choose one, according to a 2013 lawsuit that Brookfield brought against Mr. Van Boekel when he resigned to work at another carrier. The accountants made him a shareholder and director of a Dublin-based “service company” called Winged Foot Ltd. Brookfield then arranged for the company to supply Mr. Van Boekel’s piloting services to Ryanair, the suit said.

After German authorities began investigating Brookfield, Ryanair last summer turned to a new employment company to contract pilots, BlueSky Resources, set up by an agency called Crewlink that the carrier uses to hire flight crew. McGinley Aviation and Crewlink declined to comment. A spokeswoman at Brookfield, Elaine He, said it was no longer handling pilot recruitment for Ryanair."

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/16/busi ... ilots.html

So my question is, when this article talks about hiring another 2000 pilots, is it actually 2000 employees ?
 
User avatar
zkojq
Posts: 4654
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:42 am

Re: Ryanair to hire 2000 pilots in the next 3 years

Sat Jul 17, 2021 12:31 pm

Noshow wrote:
The days at work and flight hours are very much scheduled according to regulations.


There will be a lot of EK, EY, QR and FZ pilots getting a good laugh out of this comment!
 
User avatar
zkojq
Posts: 4654
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:42 am

Re: Ryanair to hire 2000 pilots in the next 3 years

Sat Jul 17, 2021 12:43 pm

Vicenza wrote:
zeke wrote:
Noshow wrote:
You gain experience and flight hours fast. FR even has a history of fast progress to the left seat. It's not all bad. After a few years pilots can move on to legacy airlines if they want and they do it.
Try to start as a pilot with any legacy airline as a newbie for comparison.


Who care is they “gain experience and flight hours fast”, that straight away tells me you have no idea about fatigue management. Do you understand that “flight hours” is less than half the hours any pilot speds “at work”. The majority of time at the behest of the employer is unpaid.

If they leave FR as a captain and you don’t join BA as a captain, you go to the bottom of the list at BA again. All those hours and 737 type rating is all irrelevant to BA. All BA wants to see is a pilot with an ATPL, class 1 medial and the right to work.

Besides the masters university qualification being quoted on here is more akin to the ATPL theoretical knowledge and exams, a masters in itself has no practical use in day to day work.

This overcharging of cadets for type ratings is like a hospital saying to a newly hired board registered Radiographer that they have to pay for their own training on the CT and MRI equipment used at that hospital.

If you have a masters, you have that for life, a 737 rating is only as good as long as 737s are in service. I would wager FR will start replacing 737s with another type within 10 years. I firmly believe the 737Max is the end of the line for the 737,,so essentially it’s a worthless investment.


I would respectively disagree Zeke (and most unusually with yourself). Ryanair do not fly either widebodies or long haul, but they rigorously adhere to all regulations.


:rotfl: So short haul pilots can't get fatigued? You try having a weeks worth of sign on times that go from 0530 1245, 0800, 1900 and 1100 respectively and see if you're not fatigued after flying that for a few weeks.

Fliplot wrote:
If an employer changes the type of aircraft is flys then they will pay for the training.


So Ryanair is paying for their pilots 737MAX conversion, not the pilots themselves?


zeke wrote:
"Pilot or L.L.C.?
When Robertus Van Boekel applied for a pilot’s job at Ryanair in 2009, he interviewed at Brookfield Aviation, a British personnel agency.

Ryanair rarely hired new pilots directly. Instead, they were told to take the unusual step of applying to Brookfield or McGinley Aviation, another British recruiter, and declare themselves as self-employed.

Brookfield handed Mr. Van Boekel, who was based in Belgium, a list of Irish accounting firms and told him to choose one, according to a 2013 lawsuit that Brookfield brought against Mr. Van Boekel when he resigned to work at another carrier. The accountants made him a shareholder and director of a Dublin-based “service company” called Winged Foot Ltd. Brookfield then arranged for the company to supply Mr. Van Boekel’s piloting services to Ryanair, the suit said.

After German authorities began investigating Brookfield, Ryanair last summer turned to a new employment company to contract pilots, BlueSky Resources, set up by an agency called Crewlink that the carrier uses to hire flight crew. McGinley Aviation and Crewlink declined to comment. A spokeswoman at Brookfield, Elaine He, said it was no longer handling pilot recruitment for Ryanair."

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/16/busi ... ilots.html

So my question is, when this article talks about hiring another 2000 pilots, is it actually 2000 employees ?


Exactly, it's disgusting how they are turning employees into contractors to deny them rights, shirk tax responsibilities and make it easier to fire people who raise safety issues. I don't imagine that it's very attractive (to pilots) as far as rostering goes as well.

Wizz does the same and there are plenty of others. This is an area where the EU has really dropped the ball and shows no sign of taking action.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos