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ADent
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Re: United and Mesa with tentative Heart ES-19 order

Tue Jul 13, 2021 11:09 pm

Should be easy to charge - put a diesel (or Jet-A) powered generator at these little airports.

Designed into a semi-trailer so they can be moved. (Handy for AOG/unplanned diversions too).

Might need a built in battery pack if you can’t generate the 1 MW needed to charge a plane quickly.

The airports can be responsible for a 1 MW grid hookup or a permanent solar plant with batteries or supplying the generator with veggie oil.
 
CRJ200flyer
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Re: United and Mesa with tentative Heart ES-19 order

Wed Jul 14, 2021 12:06 am

As others have said, how low will Mesa pay these pilots? To fly the same regional jets as other carriers, they already pay $10-$20/hr less. I’m a 3rd year FO at Delta regional, and make only a few dollar less per hour than a similar year Captain at Mesa. Insane.
 
ScottB
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Re: United and Mesa with tentative Heart ES-19 order

Wed Jul 14, 2021 4:20 am

ADent wrote:
Should be easy to charge - put a diesel (or Jet-A) powered generator at these little airports.


If you have to charge an electric airplane using a diesel-powered generator then there is no point in using an electric aircraft. Flying around several tons of batteries is really, really inefficient compared to turbines and the fuel to run them. The entire point of electric-powered aircraft is to reduce carbon dioxide emissions. If you create more CO2 making the electricity used by the plane than you'd burn with a conventional turboprop/fan, you are making the problem worse.

IceCream wrote:
We all need to realize that there's a rapid transition to renewable energy and EV's that is underway right now. EV's are close to becoming cost competitive with normal cars and that will cause us to quickly shift to EV's. It's not an overnight thing but it will happen. This order itself is a huge step forward.


No, it isn't. Read the Leeham article which has been linked a couple of times in this thread. It compares this proposal to the B1900 or J31 which are both 19-passenger turboprops. The MTOW of the B1900D is 7,764 kg. To complete a 200 nm trip with legal reserves, you'd need the amount of energy in about 8,800 kg of battery -- and that's entirely ignoring the extra energy which would be needed to haul that battery around. You need more battery than the MTOW of the existing aircraft -- and by the way, that assumes energy density of 250 W-h/kg which is at the very top of state-of-the-art in battery chemistries. The company says they're going to use the types of batteries used in electric cars, but these don't provide enough energy density.

We do not yet have the battery technology which can make this product work. We probably will some day, but it's unlikely to be in this decade. And proposals like this are bad because they divert resources away from other efforts which are more likely to produce benefits from the reduction of the use of fossil fuels.

Want to reduce greenhouse gas emissions from short-haul flying? Ban it entirely in markets which lack large geographical barriers (large bodies of water, mountains) and replace it with electric buses/trains.

jetmatt777 wrote:
Happy to see more forward-thinking from United despite the naysayers.

A.netters: Aviation has become so bland it is all wing-mounted 2- engine airplanes. Bring back the Concorde and 4-holers!

United: Hey we are ordering supersonic aircraft, electric sky taxis, and 4 engine electric regional aircraft!

A.netters: Gross. There is no market for it. Why didn't they just order more A320's instead?


None of these projects are logical and frankly they're contradictory. A supersonic aircraft is going to burn way more fossil fuel than current planes. Why is that good when they're going to the opposite extreme of (supposedly) eliminating the use of fossil fuels in tiny short-haul markets? How are electric sky taxis better for the environment than a regular electric car used as a taxi?

It feels like they're chasing a bunch of cockamamie projects for publicity when perhaps they should be doing a better job with the customer experience.
 
airzona11
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Re: United and Mesa with tentative Heart ES-19 order

Wed Jul 14, 2021 4:20 am

ADent wrote:
Should be easy to charge - put a diesel (or Jet-A) powered generator at these little airports.

Designed into a semi-trailer so they can be moved. (Handy for AOG/unplanned diversions too).

Might need a built in battery pack if you can’t generate the 1 MW needed to charge a plane quickly.

The airports can be responsible for a 1 MW grid hookup or a permanent solar plant with batteries or supplying the generator with veggie oil.


Realistically there won’t be massive spending for a relatively niche fleet. Fuel generators seem to be the likely (albeit ironic) choice.
 
FlapOperator
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Re: United and Mesa with tentative Heart ES-19 order

Wed Jul 14, 2021 6:54 am

N292UX wrote:
If they actually are delivered, a bunch of EAS routes from ORD and DEN could maybe switch to it. Other routes like ORD-PIA/SPI/AZO/LSE, IAD-CHO/RIC/MDT/ABE, and DEN-PUB/CYS/COD may fit the aircraft well. I still am pessimistic this will actually happen, but we will have to see.


Well, I certainly hope the charging cycle is less than 4 hours, or all of those trips would get beaten by a 1993 Grumman LLV, while the LLV is promising greater reliability.
 
AaronPGH
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Re: United and Mesa with tentative Heart ES-19 order

Wed Jul 14, 2021 11:03 am

This site sure is hostile to new ideas.
 
avier
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Re: United and Mesa with tentative Heart ES-19 order

Wed Jul 14, 2021 11:22 am

AaronPGH wrote:
This site sure is hostile to new ideas.

This site no, just people from a certain country that have an aversion to green technology.
 
migair54
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Re: United and Mesa with tentative Heart ES-19 order

Wed Jul 14, 2021 11:25 am

I don't see any of this planes really working for an airline like United in the mainland US, with only 250 miles range they can't really serve well any market, I could see this kind of planes working better inter island airlines, where sectors are short.
 
ScottB
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Re: United and Mesa with tentative Heart ES-19 order

Wed Jul 14, 2021 1:30 pm

avier wrote:
This site no, just people from a certain country that have an aversion to green technology.


Green technology isn't bad. Bad green technology is bad.
 
AndoAv8R
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Re: United and Mesa with tentative Heart ES-19 order

Wed Jul 14, 2021 2:33 pm

I have a relative who was involved in the hybrid/electrical design and research for one of the major auto manufacturers and started being involved when hybrid/fully electric technology first came around (he is retired but still gets called in occasionally to help). He has told me a few things which I found interesting.

-Depending on the manufacturing process, hybrid/fully electric vehicles do more overall damage to the environment (main point was rare earth metals and the mining/refining process)

-Battery/charging technology nowhere near where it needs to be to sufficiently replace internal combustion(gas/jet fuel/hydrogen) engines. The limits now are how fast you can charge and capacity. Until you can charge a battery as fast as you can refill a fuel tank as well as get the same amount of energy in size/weight, it still not as efficient

-Another thing he point out is except for iceland, the majority of the power (approx. 83% in the USA alone) still comes from fossil fuels.

For now it seems like hybrid designs that can get the most benefit of both are the best way to go and should be the main focus (especially in aerospace where weight plays a huge factor)
 
ahj2000
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Re: United and Mesa with tentative Heart ES-19 order

Wed Jul 14, 2021 2:47 pm

Nice to see my CARES money being invested well…
Seriously though, I’m all for electric aircraft. This is a joke. 19 seaters are decidedly not the aircraft of the future in a time when airlines are needing to get rid of as many 50 seaters as possible. Wake me up when Airbus’ electric aircraft come out.
 
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keesje
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Re: United and Mesa with tentative Heart ES-19 order

Wed Jul 14, 2021 2:51 pm

AaronPGH wrote:
This site sure is hostile to new ideas.


That's a big challenge we have. We all want a cleaner, sustainable environment longer term, little exceptions there. Good people start looking for solutions, politicians, people with other fields of expertise respond positively, sponsor, fund.

At some point a techie comes from under a rock with some calculations, design studies concluding it's not technically feasible now and also not in 10-20 years, even in the most optimist scenarios. That's where the trouble starts. People have committed, publicly supported, have jobs, project budgets, party programs adjusted already & want to stick to them, the good guys, logically.

So better attack/ disqualify the bringers of the bad "news". Qualify them as naysayers, pessimist or even oil addicts. Some of the techies will quickly adjust, sing along, get the budgets. Hiding their knowledge, because they experienced nobody really wants to hear the truth, and it is counterproductive on a personal level, for your career.

Ask people to talk to their partner & put half the family saving in e.g. the Heart ES-19. Often sobering realism kicks in within 15 minutes.
 
Elementalism
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Re: United and Mesa with tentative Heart ES-19 order

Wed Jul 14, 2021 2:52 pm

AaronPGH wrote:
This site sure is hostile to new ideas.


Hostile to futile ideas.
 
AaronPGH
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Re: United and Mesa with tentative Heart ES-19 order

Wed Jul 14, 2021 4:18 pm

Elementalism wrote:
AaronPGH wrote:
This site sure is hostile to new ideas.


Hostile to futile ideas.


They're only futile if nobody takes the steps to start advancing them. As a UA 1K who loves aviation but is starting to reckon with the environmental impact of my flying, including beginning to curtail my flying, these are the moves I want to see from airlines. I'm glad they're making first moves, even if it takes a long time.
 
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keesje
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Re: United and Mesa with tentative Heart ES-19 order

Wed Jul 14, 2021 5:47 pm

AaronPGH wrote:
Elementalism wrote:
AaronPGH wrote:
This site sure is hostile to new ideas.


Hostile to futile ideas.


They're only futile if nobody takes the steps to start advancing them. As a UA 1K who loves aviation but is starting to reckon with the environmental impact of my flying, including beginning to curtail my flying, these are the moves I want to see from airlines. I'm glad they're making first moves, even if it takes a long time.


Everybody who flies a lot, works in aerospace starts feeling guilty, it's clear to (almost) everyone we have an environmental challenge longer term. And love going exotic / interesting places. What I see globally, is people are confronted, feel the need to act, spend serious money here. Others see the combination of fear & billions, as an opportunity to make (big) money, short term. Even if they know their project doesn't make sense bottom line for the environment.

Like driving a Tesla, feels great, accelerates quick, looks good for the neighbors. You simply don't want to know 95%+ of energy comes from coal, gas, oil or nuclear & not from that windmill you just saw. You want to feel good in your Tesla and point to others to solve the electricity challenge. Where would that electricity for the Heart ES-19 come from? Solar cells flow in from China (creating footprint & using all the energy they'll ever generate..)?

IMO we are subject to feelgood environmentalism, playing with our fears & tax money. Avoiding pain full choices (travel less, nuclear power, consume less, smaller cars, houses etc.).

If the Heart company would have to present, discuss their plans for 50 independent aeronautical, battery energy and airline specialist for a day or two, they would probably refuse to do so. Unproductive, not the right target group.
 
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IceCream
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Re: United and Mesa with tentative Heart ES-19 order

Wed Jul 14, 2021 6:05 pm

ScottB wrote:
ADent wrote:
Should be easy to charge - put a diesel (or Jet-A) powered generator at these little airports.


If you have to charge an electric airplane using a diesel-powered generator then there is no point in using an electric aircraft. Flying around several tons of batteries is really, really inefficient compared to turbines and the fuel to run them. The entire point of electric-powered aircraft is to reduce carbon dioxide emissions. If you create more CO2 making the electricity used by the plane than you'd burn with a conventional turboprop/fan, you are making the problem worse.

IceCream wrote:
We all need to realize that there's a rapid transition to renewable energy and EV's that is underway right now. EV's are close to becoming cost competitive with normal cars and that will cause us to quickly shift to EV's. It's not an overnight thing but it will happen. This order itself is a huge step forward.


No, it isn't. Read the Leeham article which has been linked a couple of times in this thread. It compares this proposal to the B1900 or J31 which are both 19-passenger turboprops. The MTOW of the B1900D is 7,764 kg. To complete a 200 nm trip with legal reserves, you'd need the amount of energy in about 8,800 kg of battery -- and that's entirely ignoring the extra energy which would be needed to haul that battery around. You need more battery than the MTOW of the existing aircraft -- and by the way, that assumes energy density of 250 W-h/kg which is at the very top of state-of-the-art in battery chemistries. The company says they're going to use the types of batteries used in electric cars, but these don't provide enough energy density.

We do not yet have the battery technology which can make this product work. We probably will some day, but it's unlikely to be in this decade. And proposals like this are bad because they divert resources away from other efforts which are more likely to produce benefits from the reduction of the use of fossil fuels.

Want to reduce greenhouse gas emissions from short-haul flying? Ban it entirely in markets which lack large geographical barriers (large bodies of water, mountains) and replace it with electric buses/trains.

jetmatt777 wrote:
Happy to see more forward-thinking from United despite the naysayers.

A.netters: Aviation has become so bland it is all wing-mounted 2- engine airplanes. Bring back the Concorde and 4-holers!

United: Hey we are ordering supersonic aircraft, electric sky taxis, and 4 engine electric regional aircraft!

A.netters: Gross. There is no market for it. Why didn't they just order more A320's instead?


None of these projects are logical and frankly they're contradictory. A supersonic aircraft is going to burn way more fossil fuel than current planes. Why is that good when they're going to the opposite extreme of (supposedly) eliminating the use of fossil fuels in tiny short-haul markets? How are electric sky taxis better for the environment than a regular electric car used as a taxi?

It feels like they're chasing a bunch of cockamamie projects for publicity when perhaps they should be doing a better job with the customer experience.


Hey! I totally agree with you about the aviation aspect, and we're still very far off from the widespread implementation of this technology. When I said EV's I was talking about Electric vehicles (cars) mostly :)
 
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IceCream
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Re: United and Mesa with tentative Heart ES-19 order

Wed Jul 14, 2021 6:08 pm

AndoAv8R wrote:
I have a relative who was involved in the hybrid/electrical design and research for one of the major auto manufacturers and started being involved when hybrid/fully electric technology first came around (he is retired but still gets called in occasionally to help). He has told me a few things which I found interesting.

-Depending on the manufacturing process, hybrid/fully electric vehicles do more overall damage to the environment (main point was rare earth metals and the mining/refining process)

-Battery/charging technology nowhere near where it needs to be to sufficiently replace internal combustion(gas/jet fuel/hydrogen) engines. The limits now are how fast you can charge and capacity. Until you can charge a battery as fast as you can refill a fuel tank as well as get the same amount of energy in size/weight, it still not as efficient

-Another thing he point out is except for iceland, the majority of the power (approx. 83% in the USA alone) still comes from fossil fuels.

For now it seems like hybrid designs that can get the most benefit of both are the best way to go and should be the main focus (especially in aerospace where weight plays a huge factor)


One thing I would keep in mind is that renewables are rapidly growing throughout the world and record capacity is being installed every year.
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/04/23/climate ... ce%20costs.

https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2019/03/25/ ... -11-bring/
 
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william
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Re: United and Mesa with tentative Heart ES-19 order

Wed Jul 14, 2021 6:27 pm

AaronPGH wrote:
This site sure is hostile to new ideas.


Its called financial reality, you apparently did not read the previous threads on pilots pay scales. If this was a 50 pax aircraft it would be more realistic, or even a 9 pax that fits within the single pilot certification, it would be realistic. The aircraft manufacturer would know this, the fact that they are pushing through with a 19 pax tells they are not serious. Wish I could be serious about this but Heart Aerospace apparently is not.
 
dstblj52
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Re: United and Mesa with tentative Heart ES-19 order

Wed Jul 14, 2021 6:36 pm

william wrote:
AaronPGH wrote:
This site sure is hostile to new ideas.


Its called financial reality, you apparently did not read the previous threads on pilots pay scales. If this was a 50 pax aircraft it would be more realistic, or even a 9 pax that fits within the single pilot certification, it would be realistic. The aircraft manufacturer would know this, the fact that they are pushing through with a 19 pax tells they are not serious. Wish I could be serious about this but Heart Aerospace apparently is not.

19 seaters however make great press and may be an easy solution to congress men with rural districts without air service anymore
Last edited by dstblj52 on Wed Jul 14, 2021 6:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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william
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Re: United and Mesa with tentative Heart ES-19 order

Wed Jul 14, 2021 6:47 pm

AaronPGH wrote:
This site sure is hostile to new ideas.


I am going to help you out, lets pretend this "idea" actually gets certified how do you make the financial numbers work? The only way is have single pilot certification for up to 19 pax. Most likely with active safety systems you see on the CirrusJet. That should be easy and I sure ALPA will jump on that bandwagon...............or not. And please, let us not get into Autonomous flying.
 
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william
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Re: United and Mesa with tentative Heart ES-19 order

Wed Jul 14, 2021 6:51 pm

dstblj52 wrote:
william wrote:
AaronPGH wrote:
This site sure is hostile to new ideas.


Its called financial reality, you apparently did not read the previous threads on pilots pay scales. If this was a 50 pax aircraft it would be more realistic, or even a 9 pax that fits within the single pilot certification, it would be realistic. The aircraft manufacturer would know this, the fact that they are pushing through with a 19 pax tells they are not serious. Wish I could be serious about this but Heart Aerospace apparently is not.

19 seaters how make great press and may be an easy solution to congress men with rural districts without airservice anymore


You are correct, 19 pax would be the ideal aircraft for small cities. But they are not flying today in the US because the economics do not work. If this aircraft was 50, even 30 pax, then I know this company is serious.
 
jetmatt777
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Re: United and Mesa with tentative Heart ES-19 order

Wed Jul 14, 2021 6:52 pm

william wrote:
AaronPGH wrote:
This site sure is hostile to new ideas.


I am going to help you out, lets pretend this "idea" actually gets certified how do you make the financial numbers work? The only way is have single pilot certification for up to 19 pax. Most likely with active safety systems you see on the CirrusJet. That should be easy and I sure ALPA will jump on that bandwagon...............or not. And please, let us not get into Autonomous flying.


We don’t even know what the financial numbers are. Do you really think United hasn’t at least ran some preliminary numbers before making a commitment? I am sure there are hundreds of ways for United to back out; but they wouldn’t touch this if there wasn’t a way on paper to make it work.
 
dstblj52
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Re: United and Mesa with tentative Heart ES-19 order

Wed Jul 14, 2021 6:57 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
william wrote:
AaronPGH wrote:
This site sure is hostile to new ideas.


I am going to help you out, lets pretend this "idea" actually gets certified how do you make the financial numbers work? The only way is have single pilot certification for up to 19 pax. Most likely with active safety systems you see on the CirrusJet. That should be easy and I sure ALPA will jump on that bandwagon...............or not. And please, let us not get into Autonomous flying.


We don’t even know what the financial numbers are. Do you really think United hasn’t at least ran some preliminary numbers before making a commitment? I am sure there are hundreds of ways for United to back out; but they wouldn’t touch this if there wasn’t a way on paper to make it work.

Making numbers work on paper is easy, turning those paper numbers into reality is much much harder, im sure its plausible on paper they might theoretically make something that could work, its just a whole different ball game making it in reality
 
jetmatt777
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Re: United and Mesa with tentative Heart ES-19 order

Wed Jul 14, 2021 7:01 pm

dstblj52 wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:
william wrote:

I am going to help you out, lets pretend this "idea" actually gets certified how do you make the financial numbers work? The only way is have single pilot certification for up to 19 pax. Most likely with active safety systems you see on the CirrusJet. That should be easy and I sure ALPA will jump on that bandwagon...............or not. And please, let us not get into Autonomous flying.


We don’t even know what the financial numbers are. Do you really think United hasn’t at least ran some preliminary numbers before making a commitment? I am sure there are hundreds of ways for United to back out; but they wouldn’t touch this if there wasn’t a way on paper to make it work.

Making numbers work on paper is easy, turning those paper numbers into reality is much much harder, im sure its plausible on paper they might theoretically make something that could work, its just a whole different ball game making it in reality


Of course; but most paper projections take into account cost overruns and allowances for real world differences. This is to be expected. If the numbers aren’t even close to what United finds acceptable they would not have signed the deal. A.net really thinks United doesn’t own a calculator. I am sure they went through the numbers a hundred times and have decided it is close enough to sign up and see what the development process brings.
 
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william
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Re: United and Mesa with tentative Heart ES-19 order

Wed Jul 14, 2021 7:19 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
william wrote:
AaronPGH wrote:
This site sure is hostile to new ideas.


I am going to help you out, lets pretend this "idea" actually gets certified how do you make the financial numbers work? The only way is have single pilot certification for up to 19 pax. Most likely with active safety systems you see on the CirrusJet. That should be easy and I sure ALPA will jump on that bandwagon...............or not. And please, let us not get into Autonomous flying.


We don’t even know what the financial numbers are. Do you really think United hasn’t at least ran some preliminary numbers before making a commitment? I am sure there are hundreds of ways for United to back out; but they wouldn’t touch this if there wasn’t a way on paper to make it work.


True, but the optics of this is worth it United. Already there is an articles on main stream media and "green" sites like Elecktrek and Cleantechnica etc. Mission accomplished.

Its only avgeeks looking at this through a financial lens and asking, "how do you make money with this"?
 
estorilm
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Re: United and Mesa with tentative Heart ES-19 order

Wed Jul 14, 2021 7:39 pm

More United orders for imaginary aircraft that have a wonderful PR twist in the "now" but will be completely forgotten about in a few years when they're cancelled due to "not meeting the contractual or performance specifications" of the aircraft. JUST LIKE BOOM.

Is anyone honestly buying this stuff? Not literally I mean, figuratively... United bailed on this market ages ago and now they're buying planes 3x smaller? Uh sure.

Just like boom, United seems to think fake aircraft orders (relating to technologically and environmentally "superior" concepts) are good for their image.

I'm not being cynical either, neither of these concepts are realistic in the commercial aviation market - as an idea, sure.. but we need a LOT more before anything is profitable.
 
dstblj52
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Re: United and Mesa with tentative Heart ES-19 order

Wed Jul 14, 2021 7:43 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
dstblj52 wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:

We don’t even know what the financial numbers are. Do you really think United hasn’t at least ran some preliminary numbers before making a commitment? I am sure there are hundreds of ways for United to back out; but they wouldn’t touch this if there wasn’t a way on paper to make it work.

Making numbers work on paper is easy, turning those paper numbers into reality is much much harder, im sure its plausible on paper they might theoretically make something that could work, its just a whole different ball game making it in reality


Of course; but most paper projections take into account cost overruns and allowances for real world differences. This is to be expected. If the numbers aren’t even close to what United finds acceptable they would not have signed the deal. A.net really thinks United doesn’t own a calculator. I am sure they went through the numbers a hundred times and have decided it is close enough to sign up and see what the development process brings.

they probably paid nothing or next to it for the deal, and probably have a really easy get out clause if it doesn't meet performance guarantees so either they get good aircraft on the cheap or more likely no one cares in 5 years when they cancel the order, where is the loose condition here, its not like boeing or airbus where agreements are more form and pissing them off can have consequences next time your trying to buy aircraft
 
Elementalism
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Re: United and Mesa with tentative Heart ES-19 order

Wed Jul 14, 2021 7:44 pm

AaronPGH wrote:
Elementalism wrote:
AaronPGH wrote:
This site sure is hostile to new ideas.


Hostile to futile ideas.


They're only futile if nobody takes the steps to start advancing them. As a UA 1K who loves aviation but is starting to reckon with the environmental impact of my flying, including beginning to curtail my flying, these are the moves I want to see from airlines. I'm glad they're making first moves, even if it takes a long time.


Right now battery technology isnt anywhere close to ready for prime time. And unless we see a massive advancement in battery technology it wont be for decades. It is futile to stick batteries that weigh as much as the entire aircraft this is in competition with and it still can't fly anywhere near the same distance.

Building an aircraft that can't even get within a stones throwwhere it needs to perform is pointless. Go spend the money and time developing the battery. This stuff is nothing more than PR and malinvestment.
 
AaronPGH
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Re: United and Mesa with tentative Heart ES-19 order

Wed Jul 14, 2021 8:00 pm

william wrote:
AaronPGH wrote:
This site sure is hostile to new ideas.


I am going to help you out, lets pretend this "idea" actually gets certified how do you make the financial numbers work? The only way is have single pilot certification for up to 19 pax. Most likely with active safety systems you see on the CirrusJet. That should be easy and I sure ALPA will jump on that bandwagon...............or not. And please, let us not get into Autonomous flying.


Thank you for helping stupid 'ol me.
 
ScottB
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Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

Re: United and Mesa with tentative Heart ES-19 order

Wed Jul 14, 2021 8:20 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
Of course; but most paper projections take into account cost overruns and allowances for real world differences. This is to be expected. If the numbers aren’t even close to what United finds acceptable they would not have signed the deal. A.net really thinks United doesn’t own a calculator. I am sure they went through the numbers a hundred times and have decided it is close enough to sign up and see what the development process brings.


Oh, I know United owns plenty of calculating devices. I just doubt they have any substantial sums of money at risk. Heart benefits more from this announcement than United does. They get to tout an "order" for 100 aircraft from a blue-chip customer -- this is valuable when looking for more suckers investors to put money into the company. United's venture arm no doubt got a stake in the company for very little consideration; again, a big-name customer makes them look legit even if the orders have holes in them big enough to fly a 19-seater through.

This particular round of greenwashing is probably cheaper for United than a few tanks of bio-Jet A.

william wrote:
lets pretend this "idea" actually gets certified how do you make the financial numbers work? The only way is have single pilot certification for up to 19 pax. Most likely with active safety systems you see on the CirrusJet.


Even with single pilot operation it's going to be a challenge if you need an ATP. The labor productivity is still worse than for 50-seaters with two pilots.

Elementalism wrote:
Right now battery technology isnt anywhere close to ready for prime time. And unless we see a massive advancement in battery technology it wont be for decades. It is futile to stick batteries that weigh as much as the entire aircraft this is in competition with and it still can't fly anywhere near the same distance.


Not even just the weight, but charge cycles are also an issue. An aircraft with 250 mile range (maybe an hour and change in the air) should be good for at least 6 trips a day. Preferably more like 10 or 12. Tesla's Model 3 battery is designed to be good for ~1500 charge cycles. At 6 charge cycles a day, the ES-19 would need a new battery every 9 months. That's probably a quarter-million-dollar maintenance event ($100/kWh, 2,000 kWh + labor and margin) each time.
 
Elementalism
Posts: 664
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 4:03 am

Re: United and Mesa with tentative Heart ES-19 order

Wed Jul 14, 2021 8:24 pm

Yeah, wasnt even taking into account the battery life. The issue isnt the design of an aircraft. It is the battery. Get a battery developed and the aircraft design will be easy by comparison.
 
A320FlyGuy
Posts: 297
Joined: Wed May 16, 2012 8:31 pm

Re: United and Mesa with tentative Heart ES-19 order

Wed Jul 14, 2021 8:38 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
Happy to see more forward-thinking from United despite the naysayers.

A.netters: Aviation has become so bland it is all wing-mounted 2- engine airplanes. Bring back the Concorde and 4-holers!

United: Hey we are ordering supersonic aircraft, electric sky taxis, and 4 engine electric regional aircraft!

A.netters: Gross. There is no market for it. Why didn't they just order more A320's instead?


This isn't forward thinking....it's just a PR stunt.

If you think the Concorde is coming back, let me know what drugs you are taking so I can pop a few as well. Comments like yours really illustrate the ignorance of laypeople on this website.
 
IADFCO
Posts: 293
Joined: Sun May 22, 2016 4:20 pm

Re: United and Mesa with tentative Heart ES-19 order

Wed Jul 14, 2021 9:27 pm

AndoAv8R wrote:

[...]

For now it seems like hybrid designs that can get the most benefit of both are the best way to go and should be the main focus (especially in aerospace where weight plays a huge factor)


:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark:

IMHO pure battery: hopeless. Hybrid, especially fuel cells: possible, maybe even probable. Clean, inexpensive hydrogen is not really here today, but it could be in the relatively near future.
 
chonetsao
Posts: 989
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2005 3:55 pm

Re: United and Mesa with tentative Heart ES-19 order

Wed Jul 14, 2021 9:44 pm

CRJ200flyer wrote:
As others have said, how low will Mesa pay these pilots? To fly the same regional jets as other carriers, they already pay $10-$20/hr less. I’m a 3rd year FO at Delta regional, and make only a few dollar less per hour than a similar year Captain at Mesa. Insane.


MESA is betting that by the time the aircraft is available, it can employee some kids in a gaming room operating the aircraft remotely; or if that failed, it will initiate a new proposal to let one of the more experienced passengers take the stick. UA lifetime Platinum member or Gold member come to the front of the queue. (I am joking of course, please do not take offense)
 
alasizon
Posts: 3076
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: United and Mesa with tentative Heart ES-19 order

Wed Jul 14, 2021 10:39 pm

I understand the current proposal is to use Li-Ion batteries but does anyone think we will actually see a sizeable aircraft take flight with all Li-Ion batteries as opposed to some of the more emerging battery tech such as graphene?
 
FlyEndeavorAir
Posts: 78
Joined: Sat May 15, 2021 10:49 pm

Re: United and Mesa with tentative Heart ES-19 order

Wed Jul 14, 2021 10:49 pm

Can someone tell me what's with United's obsession with Mesa? No one likes them.
 
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Daetrin
Posts: 19
Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2016 2:03 pm

Re: United and Mesa with tentative Heart ES-19 order

Wed Jul 14, 2021 10:57 pm

I'm wondering more what this does to the aeronautical engineering talent pool. Do projects like this help with their employment levels? Even if none of these end up financially viable to launch, will they help develop the next generation of engineering talent?

My background is in software, and the reality is most tech start-ups fail, however they can be good feeders for talent (or good filters, depending on how you look at it).
 
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OA412
Moderator
Posts: 4936
Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2000 6:22 am

Re: United and Mesa with tentative Heart ES-19 order

Thu Jul 15, 2021 2:16 am

Politics is limited to the non aviation forum. Please stick to the aviation aspect here.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 14829
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: United and Mesa with tentative Heart ES-19 order

Thu Jul 15, 2021 2:52 am

Single pilot is easier to do than electric aircraft. You just need some politicians to agree to it, the FAA to define some rules, and it's done.

EV cars are the future and not going away, and of course smartphones etc. provided incentives to make better batteries, so that will continue with or without electric aircraft.

So every year batteries improve, and they also contain less problematic materials (less or even no cobalt, less nickel, etc.), engines can be made with little or no rare earth metals. Everything is eventually recyclable.

Regarding rare earths plenty of mines around the world could be reopened and exploited without polluting as much as in the past.

We're not talking about the same kind of pollution anyway, the goal is to reduce greenhouse gas emissions.
 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 5240
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:30 am

Re: United and Mesa with tentative Heart ES-19 order

Thu Jul 15, 2021 4:28 am

?Remember when the airplane world said we needed the A380 because airports were gonna be congested and no room very soon? Now we have room for 19 seat aircraft to be flying in the crowded NYC and SF airports?
 
IFLYUA767
Posts: 65
Joined: Mon May 31, 2021 11:42 pm

Re: United and Mesa with tentative Heart ES-19 order

Thu Jul 15, 2021 12:22 pm

Not trying to be a downer but this seems a little more realistic than the Boom Overture. I think it’s cool to see turboprops making a comeback in the US though.
 
BeowulfShaeffer
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:42 pm

Re: United and Mesa with tentative Heart ES-19 order

Thu Jul 15, 2021 1:25 pm

IFLYUA767 wrote:
Not trying to be a downer but this seems a little more realistic than the Boom Overture. I think it’s cool to see turboprops making a comeback in the US though.

Just a small point of order--the Heart ES-19 is about the furthest you can get from a "turboprop". Both have "props", yes, but there's no "turbo" (turbine engine), here. It uses electric motors.
 
IFLYUA767
Posts: 65
Joined: Mon May 31, 2021 11:42 pm

Re: United and Mesa with tentative Heart ES-19 order

Thu Jul 15, 2021 1:37 pm

BeowulfShaeffer wrote:
IFLYUA767 wrote:
Not trying to be a downer but this seems a little more realistic than the Boom Overture. I think it’s cool to see turboprops making a comeback in the US though.

Just a small point of order--the Heart ES-19 is about the furthest you can get from a "turboprop". Both have "props", yes, but there's no "turbo" (turbine engine), here. It uses electric motors.


Thank you for the correction. I meant to just say prop.
 
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N62NA
Posts: 4559
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2003 1:05 am

Re: United and Mesa with tentative Heart ES-19 order

Sat Jul 17, 2021 5:59 pm

EMB170 wrote:
This makes more sense. You won't see UA and YV putting these on ORD-IND or ORD-MKE. No one (myself included) would ever want to fly them, especially when the drive isn't that bad.


Actually, ORD-MKE was the first route that came to mind when I read the article. It's short enough for the limitations of the plane's battery range, but carries lots of connecting pax. But for people just traveling between Chicago and Milwaukee, no, better to drive or take the train.
 
dstblj52
Posts: 743
Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:38 pm

Re: United and Mesa with tentative Heart ES-19 order

Sat Jul 17, 2021 10:51 pm

FlyEndeavorAir wrote:
Can someone tell me what's with United's obsession with Mesa? No one likes them.

their cheap

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