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ikolkyo
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Air Baltic A223 - Both engines automatically shutdown on touchdown

Thu Jul 15, 2021 2:14 pm

An Air Baltic Bombardier C-Series CS-300, registration YL-AAQ performing flight BT-139 from Riga (Latvia) to Copenhagen (Denmark), landed on Copenhagen's runway 04L when both engines automatically shut down automatically. The aircraft rolled out, the crew managed to steer the aircraft clear of the runway. The aircraft was subsequently towed to the apron.

The aircraft is still on the ground in Copenhagen about 4 days later.

http://avherald.com/h?article=4ea5172d&opt=0


Reminds me of this ANA 788 incident a couple years ago.
http://avherald.com/h?article=4c2fe53a&opt=0
 
VV
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Re: Air Baltic A223 - Both engines automatically shutdown on touchdown

Thu Jul 15, 2021 2:26 pm

That's the automatic shutdown feature.
 
TerminalD
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Re: Air Baltic A223 - Both engines automatically shutdown on touchdown

Thu Jul 15, 2021 2:31 pm

VV wrote:
That's the automatic shutdown feature.

If Breeze flies these transatlantic that auto-shutdown feature could really make the trip exciting.
 
Blankbarcode
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Re: Air Baltic A223 - Both engines automatically shutdown on touchdown

Thu Jul 15, 2021 2:50 pm

That's fairly alarming, not gonna lie. I can't really imagine this being an actual automatic feature, and I'd probably say it's more likely to be a failure of sorts that was brought on by the landing knocking a component loose? This is just pure guesswork of course, I'd love to hear any insights.
 
SEU
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Re: Air Baltic A223 - Both engines automatically shutdown on touchdown

Thu Jul 15, 2021 3:40 pm

How are the engine issues on the A220s now? They were quite bad at the start.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Air Baltic A223 - Both engines automatically shutdown on touchdown

Thu Jul 15, 2021 3:45 pm

VV wrote:
That's the automatic shutdown feature.

Indeed. Someone probably hasn't read the manual.

Blankbarcode wrote:
That's fairly alarming, not gonna lie. I can't really imagine this being an actual automatic feature, and I'd probably say it's more likely to be a failure of sorts that was brought on by the landing knocking a component loose? This is just pure guesswork of course, I'd love to hear any insights.

IMO it's probably better to refer to this as an "uncommanded" rather than an "automatic" shutdown.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Air Baltic A223 - Both engines automatically shutdown on touchdown

Thu Jul 15, 2021 3:47 pm

Prior shutdown due to water in electronics bay:

https://simpleflying.com/airbus-a220-ra ... -shutdown/

I need far more information to make a decision on severity. In particular, so far only on the ground.

I do not believe, at this point, this is engine related. Instead, it seems engines are responding to a valid command.
 
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Re: Air Baltic A223 - Both engines automatically shutdown on touchdown

Thu Jul 15, 2021 3:58 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Prior shutdown due to water in electronics bay:

https://simpleflying.com/airbus-a220-ra ... -shutdown/

I need far more information to make a decision on severity. In particular, so far only on the ground.

I do not believe, at this point, this is engine related. Instead, it seems engines are responding to a valid command.

The article suggests water ingress causes a short circuit in the avionics that leads to an engine shutdown.

Not sure if it's an orderly shutdown or not.

Seems there's an AD out on the water ingress already, with 12 months to comply.

It might be time to re-evaluate that AD.
 
peterinlisbon
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Re: Air Baltic A223 - Both engines automatically shutdown on touchdown

Thu Jul 15, 2021 4:00 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
An Air Baltic Bombardier C-Series CS-300, registration YL-AAQ performing flight BT-139 from Riga (Latvia) to Copenhagen (Denmark), landed on Copenhagen's runway 04L when both engines automatically shut down automatically. The aircraft rolled out, the crew managed to steer the aircraft clear of the runway. The aircraft was subsequently towed to the apron.

The aircraft is still on the ground in Copenhagen about 4 days later.

http://avherald.com/h?article=4ea5172d&opt=0


Reminds me of this ANA 788 incident a couple years ago.
http://avherald.com/h?article=4c2fe53a&opt=0


That sounds like a great feature. They should add it to more aircraft. It's just what you need when over central London on approach to Heathrow, for example.
 
KGarc21
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Re: Air Baltic A223 - Both engines automatically shutdown on touchdown

Thu Jul 15, 2021 4:02 pm

automatically shut down automatically.

Yeah, it sounds alright!
 
LDRA
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Re: Air Baltic A223 - Both engines automatically shutdown on touchdown

Thu Jul 15, 2021 4:04 pm

VV wrote:
That's the automatic shutdown feature.

That's an optional feature. Air Baltic, being cheap, did not order that software license
 
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Nomadd
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Re: Air Baltic A223 - Both engines automatically shutdown on touchdown

Thu Jul 15, 2021 4:05 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Prior shutdown due to water in electronics bay:

https://simpleflying.com/airbus-a220-ra ... -shutdown/

I need far more information to make a decision on severity. In particular, so far only on the ground.

I do not believe, at this point, this is engine related. Instead, it seems engines are responding to a valid command.


Could it be a result of going to a different law once it's on the ground? Some condition that would shut engines down on deck but not in the air?
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Air Baltic A223 - Both engines automatically shutdown on touchdown

Thu Jul 15, 2021 4:24 pm

Nomadd wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Prior shutdown due to water in electronics bay:

https://simpleflying.com/airbus-a220-ra ... -shutdown/

I need far more information to make a decision on severity. In particular, so far only on the ground.

I do not believe, at this point, this is engine related. Instead, it seems engines are responding to a valid command.


Could it be a result of going to a different law once it's on the ground? Some condition that would shut engines down on deck but not in the air?

It could be. I do not know enough of the A220, I suspect weight on wheels and an estimated velocity below some threshold. Annoying, needs to be fixed, but not as alarming as some here suggest after initial review.

Lightsaber
 
avier
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Re: Air Baltic A223 - Both engines automatically shutdown on touchdown

Thu Jul 15, 2021 4:32 pm

I'm guessing it's the new fuel saving technique. The last I heard, they were shutting down one engine after vacating the runway. Now, shutdown both engines right when the wheel comes in contact with the runway surface.
 
DFW17L
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Re: Air Baltic A223 - Both engines automatically shutdown on touchdown

Thu Jul 15, 2021 4:40 pm

Reminds me of my childhood, living on a hill. Our home was uphill from the local doctor — a Radiologist. When he was coming home, and was at the top of the hill, he’d turn off the engine and coast down the street. In summertime when we played outside on the street, he ran silent and frequently honked his horn to warn us of his stealthy approach. He would have liked that automatic shutdown feature.
 
VV
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Re: Air Baltic A223 - Both engines automatically shutdown on touchdown

Thu Jul 15, 2021 7:21 pm

LDRA wrote:
VV wrote:
That's the automatic shutdown feature.

That's an optional feature. Air Baltic, being cheap, did not order that software license


Next time they will add the message, "Are you sure you want to shutdown both engines now?"
 
sgbroimp
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Re: Air Baltic A223 - Both engines automatically shutdown on touchdown

Thu Jul 15, 2021 7:29 pm

This fuel savings business is really getting extreme, no? First taxi on one engine, now taxi on none!
 
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tjwgrr
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Re: Air Baltic A223 - Both engines automatically shutdown on touchdown

Thu Jul 15, 2021 7:43 pm

So Airbus is now installing the same irritating idle stop feature found on most new automobiles?
 
freakyrat
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Re: Air Baltic A223 - Both engines automatically shutdown on touchdown

Thu Jul 15, 2021 7:45 pm

TerminalD wrote:
VV wrote:
That's the automatic shutdown feature.

If Breeze flies these transatlantic that auto-shutdown feature could really make the trip exciting.


It is an on-ground command only
 
freakyrat
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Re: Air Baltic A223 - Both engines automatically shutdown on touchdown

Thu Jul 15, 2021 7:55 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Nomadd wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Prior shutdown due to water in electronics bay:

https://simpleflying.com/airbus-a220-ra ... -shutdown/

I need far more information to make a decision on severity. In particular, so far only on the ground.

I do not believe, at this point, this is engine related. Instead, it seems engines are responding to a valid command.


Could it be a result of going to a different law once it's on the ground? Some condition that would shut engines down on deck but not in the air?

It could be. I do not know enough of the A220, I suspect weight on wheels and an estimated velocity below some threshold. Annoying, needs to be fixed, but not as alarming as some here suggest after initial review.

Lightsaber


I read on the comments to the incident report that it has to do with the Thrust Control Logic with relation to a percentage of N1 in the Fadec with the thrust levers in the Idle or reverse position and only on the ground. It was a valid command from the computers. I'm sure someone who is familiar with the GTF engine will explain it here. It also applies to the LEAP engines.
 
A320B737NGCapt
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Re: Air Baltic A223 - Both engines automatically shutdown on touchdown

Thu Jul 15, 2021 8:00 pm

This has happened to JQ and JL on the 787. Both engines rolled back just after touch down.
 
IFlyVeryLittle
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Re: Air Baltic A223 - Both engines automatically shutdown on touchdown

Thu Jul 15, 2021 8:13 pm

"As occurred in this incident, that could lead to short-circuiting, the loss of air data sources, a reduction in functional capabilities, and an increase in crew workload." Captain to FO: Your turn to push.
 
Ziyulu
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Re: Air Baltic A223 - Both engines automatically shutdown on touchdown

Thu Jul 15, 2021 8:33 pm

So this plane cannot land from the bay at SFO since it is overwater?
 
cschleic
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Re: Air Baltic A223 - Both engines automatically shutdown on touchdown

Thu Jul 15, 2021 8:34 pm

What if the crew decided, for whatever reason, after touching down, that they needed a go around?
 
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vhtje
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Re: Air Baltic A223 - Both engines automatically shutdown on touchdown

Thu Jul 15, 2021 8:41 pm

DFW17L wrote:
Reminds me of my childhood, living on a hill. Our home was uphill from the local doctor — a Radiologist. When he was coming home, and was at the top of the hill, he’d turn off the engine and coast down the street. In summertime when we played outside on the street, he ran silent and frequently honked his horn to warn us of his stealthy approach. He would have liked that automatic shutdown feature.


That is a man who will willingly spend a pound to save a penny. Was he from Yorkshire?

On topic: if this is indeed a feature of this aircraft, why would this happen on this particular aircraft and flight, and it be unexpected? Configuration error?
 
metaldirtnskin
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Re: Air Baltic A223 - Both engines automatically shutdown on touchdown

Thu Jul 15, 2021 9:05 pm

VV wrote:
Next time they will add the message, "Are you sure you want to shutdown both engines now?"


Or it's like Windows, which just decides it's time to restart the system when "not in use" (i.e. wheels on ground).

All joking aside, the more complex the software that governs these systems, the easier it is for the manufacturer to do things without oversight from regulators/operators/etc and then hide behind the claim that the system is working as designed. It's much too soon to know if this is one of those issues, but as a general statement I think that's true.
 
LDRA
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Re: Air Baltic A223 - Both engines automatically shutdown on touchdown

Thu Jul 15, 2021 9:10 pm

metaldirtnskin wrote:
VV wrote:
Next time they will add the message, "Are you sure you want to shutdown both engines now?"


Or it's like Windows, which just decides it's time to restart the system when "not in use" (i.e. wheels on ground).

All joking aside, the more complex the software that governs these systems, the easier it is for the manufacturer to do things without oversight from regulators/operators/etc and then hide behind the claim that the system is working as designed. It's much too soon to know if this is one of those issues, but as a general statement I think that's true.

Software on aircraft are highly regulated. They're major part of certification activities. You have to show full traceability between function intent(requirements), code and validations. Definitely not hidden
 
ratp101
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Re: Air Baltic A223 - Both engines automatically shutdown on touchdown

Thu Jul 15, 2021 9:43 pm

LDRA wrote:
metaldirtnskin wrote:
VV wrote:
Next time they will add the message, "Are you sure you want to shutdown both engines now?"


Or it's like Windows, which just decides it's time to restart the system when "not in use" (i.e. wheels on ground).

All joking aside, the more complex the software that governs these systems, the easier it is for the manufacturer to do things without oversight from regulators/operators/etc and then hide behind the claim that the system is working as designed. It's much too soon to know if this is one of those issues, but as a general statement I think that's true.

Software on aircraft are highly regulated. They're major part of certification activities. You have to show full traceability between function intent(requirements), code and validations. Definitely not hidden


Hence the LionAir/Ethiopian crashes?
 
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NWAROOSTER
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Re: Air Baltic A223 - Both engines automatically shutdown on touchdown

Thu Jul 15, 2021 9:50 pm

Chip malfunction. Aircraft now rely on too much electronics which the flight crew cannot control or it may be difficult to override. :old:
 
LDRA
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Re: Air Baltic A223 - Both engines automatically shutdown on touchdown

Thu Jul 15, 2021 10:05 pm

NWAROOSTER wrote:
Chip malfunction. Aircraft now rely on too much electronics which the flight crew cannot control or it may be difficult to override. :old:

What??? Both pilots ate from the same bag of contaminated chips and fell ill?

Oh you meant computers. All the important computations are done by redundant hardwares. The critical systems are designed with failure in mind
 
Jshank83
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Re: Air Baltic A223 - Both engines automatically shutdown on touchdown

Thu Jul 15, 2021 10:14 pm

I guess it is better than a shutdown on take off.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Air Baltic A223 - Both engines automatically shutdown on touchdown

Thu Jul 15, 2021 10:40 pm

ratp101 wrote:
LDRA wrote:
metaldirtnskin wrote:

Or it's like Windows, which just decides it's time to restart the system when "not in use" (i.e. wheels on ground).

All joking aside, the more complex the software that governs these systems, the easier it is for the manufacturer to do things without oversight from regulators/operators/etc and then hide behind the claim that the system is working as designed. It's much too soon to know if this is one of those issues, but as a general statement I think that's true.

Software on aircraft are highly regulated. They're major part of certification activities. You have to show full traceability between function intent(requirements), code and validations. Definitely not hidden

Hence the LionAir/Ethiopian crashes?

Definitely not hidden till DoJ or Congress comes around, then hidden.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Air Baltic A223 - Both engines automatically shutdown on touchdown

Thu Jul 15, 2021 11:15 pm

The MCAS software worked exactly as intended. It was just based on a flawed design due to flawed assumptions.

This case here could be similar if the designers simply assumed that there would never be water in the electronics bay (or that any components damaged on the ground would be detected and repaired prior to the next flight). Nothing wrong with the code per se.
 
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seat55a
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Re: Air Baltic A223 - Both engines automatically shutdown on touchdown

Fri Jul 16, 2021 12:50 am

DFW17L wrote:
Reminds me of my childhood, living on a hill. Our home was uphill from the local doctor — a Radiologist. When he was coming home, and was at the top of the hill, he’d turn off the engine and coast down the street. In summertime when we played outside on the street, he ran silent and frequently honked his horn to warn us of his stealthy approach. He would have liked that automatic shutdown feature.

What year? Had he read/seen The World According to Garp or was it just foreshadowing?
(Obligatory aviation/Garp related content: "We'll take the house. Honey, the chances of another plane hitting this house are astronomical. It's been pre-disastered. We're going to be safe here."
 
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zeke
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Re: Air Baltic A223 - Both engines automatically shutdown on touchdown

Fri Jul 16, 2021 1:10 am

freakyrat wrote:

I read on the comments to the incident report that it has to do with the Thrust Control Logic with relation to a percentage of N1 in the Fadec with the thrust levers in the Idle or reverse position and only on the ground. It was a valid command from the computers. I'm sure someone who is familiar with the GTF engine will explain it here. It also applies to the LEAP engines.


This is not uncommon on FADEC engines or APU on the ground, if they sense a failure the more conservative action is to auto shutdown or to go back to idle. Despite what was written above the engines did not shutdown on the immediate landing, it was during the landing roll.

Just to be clear, these computers (FADEC) are located on the engine, water will not get in them.
 
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a36001
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Re: Air Baltic A223 - Both engines automatically shutdown on touchdown

Fri Jul 16, 2021 1:22 am

cschleic wrote:
What if the crew decided, for whatever reason, after touching down, that they needed a go around?


Good question! anyone care to share their thoughts on this?? I guess start looking for the PANIC button!
 
freakyrat
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Re: Air Baltic A223 - Both engines automatically shutdown on touchdown

Fri Jul 16, 2021 1:23 am

zeke wrote:
freakyrat wrote:

I read on the comments to the incident report that it has to do with the Thrust Control Logic with relation to a percentage of N1 in the Fadec with the thrust levers in the Idle or reverse position and only on the ground. It was a valid command from the computers. I'm sure someone who is familiar with the GTF engine will explain it here. It also applies to the LEAP engines.


This is not uncommon on FADEC engines or APU on the ground, if they sense a failure the more conservative action is to auto shutdown or to go back to idle. Despite what was written above the engines did not shutdown on the immediate landing, it was during the landing roll.

Just to be clear, these computers (FADEC) are located on the engine, water will not get in them.


Zeke Thank You for explaining things.
 
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DL757NYC
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Re: Air Baltic A223 - Both engines automatically shutdown on touchdown

Fri Jul 16, 2021 2:01 am

Maybe it’s a new fuel saving feature. Then the tugs pull the plane into the gate.
 
UA748i
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Re: Air Baltic A223 - Both engines automatically shutdown on touchdown

Fri Jul 16, 2021 2:21 am

DL757NYC wrote:
Maybe it’s a new fuel saving feature. Then the tugs pull the plane into the gate.


TBH, thats actually not a bad idea.

I suspect that could work for smaller airports.
 
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zeke
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Re: Air Baltic A223 - Both engines automatically shutdown on touchdown

Fri Jul 16, 2021 2:31 am

a36001 wrote:

Good question! anyone care to share their thoughts on this?? I guess start looking for the PANIC button!


I suspect if it’s a rejected landing, I.e. take off again before selecting reverse they would be able to do so. If it’s after selecting reverse, then no, however all manuals say that a takeoff should never be attempted after selecting reverse as there can e asymmetric thrust reverser deployment and retraction resulting in loss of control.
 
amcnd
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Re: Air Baltic A223 - Both engines automatically shutdown on touchdown

Fri Jul 16, 2021 2:59 am

cschleic wrote:
What if the crew decided, for whatever reason, after touching down, that they needed a go around?



Pretty typical not to go-around after main wheel touch down, as the ground lift dump system would have deployed..
 
FlapOperator
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Re: Air Baltic A223 - Both engines automatically shutdown on touchdown

Fri Jul 16, 2021 4:49 am

If this is a pilot un-commanded software issue, it’s significant.
 
PowerJet
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Re: Air Baltic A223 - Both engines automatically shutdown on touchdown

Fri Jul 16, 2021 6:08 am

amcnd wrote:
cschleic wrote:
What if the crew decided, for whatever reason, after touching down, that they needed a go around?



Pretty typical not to go-around after main wheel touch down, as the ground lift dump system would have deployed..


Advancement of the throttles cancels any lift dumping. Go-arounds after touchdown are not unheard of. Glad they didn't need to go around. Could have ended in disaster.
 
whiplash
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Re: Air Baltic A223 - Both engines automatically shutdown on touchdown

Fri Jul 16, 2021 7:04 am

amcnd wrote:
cschleic wrote:
What if the crew decided, for whatever reason, after touching down, that they needed a go around?



Pretty typical not to go-around after main wheel touch down, as the ground lift dump system would have deployed..


Incorrect. You are allowed to go around after touchdown if you have not deployed the thrust reversers.
 
oldannyboy
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Re: Air Baltic A223 - Both engines automatically shutdown on touchdown

Fri Jul 16, 2021 9:21 am

DFW17L wrote:
Reminds me of my childhood, living on a hill. Our home was uphill from the local doctor — a Radiologist. When he was coming home, and was at the top of the hill, he’d turn off the engine and coast down the street. In summertime when we played outside on the street, he ran silent and frequently honked his horn to warn us of his stealthy approach. He would have liked that automatic shutdown feature.


I had a car, a lovely one at that (and yes, a Mercedes, not a Yugo!), with that same clever fuel-saving 'auto cut-off' system....it liked to shut itself off when going downhill, if the a/c was on. I have some really interesting memories of losing engine, power assisted steering, and servo-braking, all in one go while cruising at 150km/h on a motorway....
 
 
BrianDromey
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Re: Air Baltic A223 - Both engines automatically shutdown on touchdown

Fri Jul 16, 2021 10:59 am

zeke wrote:
FlapOperator wrote:
If this is a pilot un-commanded software issue, it’s significant.


These sort of things happen...


Lauda Air 004 being one of the most deadly. I don't think it has ever been certain, but it is presumed that the left thrust reverser deployed in flight.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauda_Air_Flight_004
 
VV
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Re: Air Baltic A223 - Both engines automatically shutdown on touchdown

Fri Jul 16, 2021 11:48 am

I do not think it is considered as severe enough to trigger a grounding by EASA.
 
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armagnac2010
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Re: Air Baltic A223 - Both engines automatically shutdown on touchdown

Fri Jul 16, 2021 12:14 pm

Transport Canada is in charge of the Airbus A220, not EASA.
 
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Polot
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Re: Air Baltic A223 - Both engines automatically shutdown on touchdown

Fri Jul 16, 2021 12:20 pm

armagnac2010 wrote:
Transport Canada is in charge of the Airbus A220, not EASA.

That doesn’t prevent EASA from grounding the plane if they want (they are not going to).

Transport Canada just has the lead over certification. EASA is still in charge of the A220’s airworthiness in Europe.

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