Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
traindoc
Topic Author
Posts: 369
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2008 11:35 am

Ground delay at DAL

Fri Jul 16, 2021 12:14 am

Love Field (DAL) has shown ground delays most of the day, due to OTHER/OTHER, per the FAA. And WN is cancelling flights again! What’s the problem this time?
 
AU795
Posts: 10
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:31 am

Re: Ground delay at DAL

Fri Jul 16, 2021 12:46 am

DAL - GDP until 0659z due to tower staffing issues. Revised down to an 8 rate beginning at 00z.
 
Flflyer83
Posts: 178
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:40 pm

Re: Ground delay at DAL

Fri Jul 16, 2021 1:46 am

traindoc wrote:
Love Field (DAL) has shown ground delays most of the day, due to OTHER/OTHER, per the FAA. And WN is cancelling flights again! What’s the problem this time?


Not a WN issue...
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 15270
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: Ground delay at DAL

Fri Jul 16, 2021 2:02 am

AU795 wrote:
DAL - GDP until 0659z due to tower staffing issues. Revised down to an 8 rate beginning at 00z.


I know we’re happily out of practice on this, but this almost sounds like the COVID cleanings that happened continually a year ago. Is the FAA policy on facility cleaning still the same?
 
traindoc
Topic Author
Posts: 369
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2008 11:35 am

Re: Ground delay at DAL

Fri Jul 16, 2021 2:14 am

Thanks for the update! Unfortunately, COVID is far from over as the delta variant is more infectious than earlier ones. We are seeing another increase in COVID patients in the ER!
 
alasizon
Posts: 3044
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: Ground delay at DAL

Fri Jul 16, 2021 3:24 am

Cubsrule wrote:
AU795 wrote:
DAL - GDP until 0659z due to tower staffing issues. Revised down to an 8 rate beginning at 00z.


I know we’re happily out of practice on this, but this almost sounds like the COVID cleanings that happened continually a year ago. Is the FAA policy on facility cleaning still the same?


COVID cleaning of the tower would have resulted in a full closure, not a GDP for staffing. That being said the cleaning procedures were modified at some point as one that was done recently locally for ZAB took half the time it used to but still resulted in a 1 hour closure of ZAB except for the areas in AZ that Phoenix TRACON could monitor. Obviously can't take that same approach with a tower as there is really only one place that works to monitor the airfield.
 
DaCubbyBearBar
Posts: 346
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2008 12:31 pm

Re: Ground delay at DAL

Fri Jul 16, 2021 11:02 am

I suspect it was a ATC COVID issue….but unless they release a statement, we won’t know for sure
 
User avatar
atcsundevil
Moderator
Posts: 4570
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 12:22 pm

Re: Ground delay at DAL

Fri Jul 16, 2021 1:17 pm

alasizon wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
AU795 wrote:
DAL - GDP until 0659z due to tower staffing issues. Revised down to an 8 rate beginning at 00z.


I know we’re happily out of practice on this, but this almost sounds like the COVID cleanings that happened continually a year ago. Is the FAA policy on facility cleaning still the same?


COVID cleaning of the tower would have resulted in a full closure, not a GDP for staffing. That being said the cleaning procedures were modified at some point as one that was done recently locally for ZAB took half the time it used to but still resulted in a 1 hour closure of ZAB except for the areas in AZ that Phoenix TRACON could monitor. Obviously can't take that same approach with a tower as there is really only one place that works to monitor the airfield.

I don't think that this was for cleaning. Even when facilities did go ATC-0 on a regular basis for cleaning, they generally waited until the mid to minimize disruption. They did modify the cleaning procedures a few months ago to include a heavier clean around 10pm, but we haven't had a level 3 cleaning in probably 4+ months at my facility. I haven't seen anything official, but I suspect there won't be any significant ATC-0 events for cleaning anymore, as that's seemingly been replaced by more frequent cleanings.

While I wouldn't say it's impossible, it's very unlikely there would be a GDP for ATC-0. Allowing airplanes to depart to a closed facility makes about as much sense as it sounds. They're far more likely to put out a ground stop until the facility is no longer ATC-0. They might put out a GDP if a facility goes on alert, which is effectively a warning that the facility is at risk of going ATC-0 for whatever reason, but that's about it. When there's a GDP for staffing, it typically means they're just short staffed, but the facility is still open and functional. When staffing reaches a critical level, TMU will put out initiatives (reduced arrival rates, restrictions, GDP, GS) to allow for combined positions and reasonable rest intervals. What caused these staffing issues could be due to a variety of reasons — it could be that a few controllers got contact traced for covid and it took out a crew, or it could just be that a few people took sick leave and they couldn't get any takers for OT. The latter is a somewhat frequent scenario in the summer with a lot of people being on annual, and since we're limited to how much OT can be worked, sometimes the OT list is rather short.

They're expecting a GDP again today, so that tells me it's persistent low staffing for whatever reason. Covid isn't an unreasonable guess.
 
bob75013
Posts: 1092
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:05 pm

Re: Ground delay at DAL

Fri Jul 16, 2021 1:39 pm

Landed at Love Field @ 3:45 yesterday afternoon. On time.
 
kiowa
Posts: 885
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:37 am

Re: Ground delay at DAL

Fri Jul 16, 2021 10:04 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
alasizon wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:

I know we’re happily out of practice on this, but this almost sounds like the COVID cleanings that happened continually a year ago. Is the FAA policy on facility cleaning still the same?


COVID cleaning of the tower would have resulted in a full closure, not a GDP for staffing. That being said the cleaning procedures were modified at some point as one that was done recently locally for ZAB took half the time it used to but still resulted in a 1 hour closure of ZAB except for the areas in AZ that Phoenix TRACON could monitor. Obviously can't take that same approach with a tower as there is really only one place that works to monitor the airfield.

I don't think that this was for cleaning. Even when facilities did go ATC-0 on a regular basis for cleaning, they generally waited until the mid to minimize disruption. They did modify the cleaning procedures a few months ago to include a heavier clean around 10pm, but we haven't had a level 3 cleaning in probably 4+ months at my facility. I haven't seen anything official, but I suspect there won't be any significant ATC-0 events for cleaning anymore, as that's seemingly been replaced by more frequent cleanings.

While I wouldn't say it's impossible, it's very unlikely there would be a GDP for ATC-0. Allowing airplanes to depart to a closed facility makes about as much sense as it sounds. They're far more likely to put out a ground stop until the facility is no longer ATC-0. They might put out a GDP if a facility goes on alert, which is effectively a warning that the facility is at risk of going ATC-0 for whatever reason, but that's about it. When there's a GDP for staffing, it typically means they're just short staffed, but the facility is still open and functional. When staffing reaches a critical level, TMU will put out initiatives (reduced arrival rates, restrictions, GDP, GS) to allow for combined positions and reasonable rest intervals. What caused these staffing issues could be due to a variety of reasons — it could be that a few controllers got contact traced for covid and it took out a crew, or it could just be that a few people took sick leave and they couldn't get any takers for OT. The latter is a somewhat frequent scenario in the summer with a lot of people being on annual, and since we're limited to how much OT can be worked, sometimes the OT list is rather short.

They're expecting a GDP again today, so that tells me it's persistent low staffing for whatever reason. Covid isn't an unreasonable guess.


It is the explanation used for most bad performance things today.
 
User avatar
atcsundevil
Moderator
Posts: 4570
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 12:22 pm

Re: Ground delay at DAL

Fri Jul 16, 2021 10:28 pm

kiowa wrote:
It is the explanation used for most bad performance things today.

That's an incredibly simplistic and insulting point of view to the controllers working in that tower.
 
DualQual
Posts: 752
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 6:10 pm

Re: Ground delay at DAL

Sat Jul 17, 2021 3:33 am

traindoc wrote:
Thanks for the update! Unfortunately, COVID is far from over as the delta variant is more infectious than earlier ones. We are seeing another increase in COVID patients in the ER!


Let me guess. They all have something in common.
 
kiowa
Posts: 885
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:37 am

Re: Ground delay at DAL

Sat Jul 17, 2021 4:03 am

atcsundevil wrote:
kiowa wrote:
It is the explanation used for most bad performance things today.

That's an incredibly simplistic and insulting point of view to the controllers working in that tower.


Not simple or insulting. Just an observation. “Covid” is being used as the explanation for many things today in society and business. Your suggestion that that may be the problem here is a perfect example.
 
bigb
Posts: 1417
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 4:30 pm

Re: Ground delay at DAL

Sat Jul 17, 2021 4:14 am

kiowa wrote:
atcsundevil wrote:
kiowa wrote:
It is the explanation used for most bad performance things today.

That's an incredibly simplistic and insulting point of view to the controllers working in that tower.


Not simple or insulting. Just an observation. “Covid” is being used as the explanation for many things today in society and business. Your suggestion that that may be the problem here is a perfect example.


Can you honestly not see how Covid has impacted a lot of things today. The effects of Covid have far reaching impacts.
 
User avatar
atcsundevil
Moderator
Posts: 4570
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 12:22 pm

Re: Ground delay at DAL

Sat Jul 17, 2021 12:41 pm

kiowa wrote:
atcsundevil wrote:
kiowa wrote:
It is the explanation used for most bad performance things today.

That's an incredibly simplistic and insulting point of view to the controllers working in that tower.


Not simple or insulting. Just an observation. “Covid” is being used as the explanation for many things today in society and business. Your suggestion that that may be the problem here is a perfect example.

I understand what you were intending to say, but that's why it was an extremely simplistic assessment when it seems you're ignoring and quite frankly insulting the controllers who showed up and no doubt worked their butts off. I'm willing to bet that the controllers who have been working with minimal breaks aren't performing badly at all. I've worked on days that we're so short staffed they have to put out restrictions and reroute traffic, and we make the same pay as on days that we're more than fully staffed — the only difference being that we're working much, much harder. It's not a fun feeling knowing that there's no one to get you out even for a bathroom break for potentially hours at a time. This isn't like a desk job where someone can just sit in front of their computer screen for a little longer. It requires concentration. Lengthy and challenging sessions can take a physical toll that compounds without regular breaks.

You can blame whatever you'd like for there being short staffing, but don't call it bad performance when I can promise you that's not the case.
 
capejet
Posts: 142
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2012 9:08 pm

Re: Ground delay at DAL

Sat Jul 17, 2021 1:43 pm

Probably not related but media is reporting a person in Dallas is testing positive to monkeypox. This person flew from Nigeria to Atlanta and then into Love Field. They may have done a thorough cleaning of all airport facilities.
 
kiowa
Posts: 885
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:37 am

Re: Ground delay at DAL

Sat Jul 17, 2021 9:37 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
kiowa wrote:
atcsundevil wrote:
That's an incredibly simplistic and insulting point of view to the controllers working in that tower.


Not simple or insulting. Just an observation. “Covid” is being used as the explanation for many things today in society and business. Your suggestion that that may be the problem here is a perfect example.

I understand what you were intending to say, but that's why it was an extremely simplistic assessment when it seems you're ignoring and quite frankly insulting the controllers who showed up and no doubt worked their butts off. I'm willing to bet that the controllers who have been working with minimal breaks aren't performing badly at all. I've worked on days that we're so short staffed they have to put out restrictions and reroute traffic, and we make the same pay as on days that we're more than fully staffed — the only difference being that we're working much, much harder. It's not a fun feeling knowing that there's no one to get you out even for a bathroom break for potentially hours at a time. This isn't like a desk job where someone can just sit in front of their computer screen for a little longer. It requires concentration. Lengthy and challenging sessions can take a physical toll that compounds without regular breaks.

You can blame whatever you'd like for there being short staffing, but don't call it bad performance when I can promise you that's not the case.


You are taking this rather personal. An organization can have bad performance without the individuals people performing badly. A station, squadron, tower, class, can all have bad numbers even when the people are putting out a fine job. This was not an attack on controllers. Most of them do a very fine job I’m sure.
 
freakyrat
Posts: 2342
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:04 pm

Re: Ground delay at DAL

Sat Jul 17, 2021 10:20 pm

DAL also has Runway 13R/31L closed for construction.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos