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ClipperYankee
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Confusion during French Bee A350 landing

Fri Jul 16, 2021 4:10 am

Seems there was a lot of confusion at the end of this flight, with the captain finally taking over: "BEA says this prompted the captain to state firmly: “Everyone quiet. I’m the only one giving orders.”

https://www.flightglobal.com/safety/fre ... 06.article

or

http://www.flightglobal.com/safety/fren ... 06.article

Apols if this was posted elsewhere, I did not see it when searching for it.
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wingman
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Re: Confusion during French Bee A350 landing

Fri Jul 16, 2021 4:21 am

Case study for single pilot ops. The story doesn’t mention souls on board but they’d all be in heaven by now.
 
reltney
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Re: Confusion during French Bee A350 landing

Fri Jul 16, 2021 5:42 am

Holy cow. How you can lose control of a flyable aircraft with 3 pilots aboard. Many problems here. Aviate Navigate and when you get a chance, Communicate with atc.

Cheers
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Heinkel
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Re: Confusion during French Bee A350 landing

Fri Jul 16, 2021 6:32 am

So much about advantages of having three people on the flight deck. In this case it only added confusion.

Just another example, how unsafe this manual flying is.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Confusion during French Bee A350 landing

Fri Jul 16, 2021 6:37 am

reltney wrote:
Holy cow. How you can lose control of a flyable aircraft with 3 pilots aboard. Many problems here. Aviate Navigate and when you get a chance, Communicate with atc.

Cheers


Don't the vast majority of airliner crashes involve a flyable aircraft with multiple pilots?
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Aesma
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Re: Confusion during French Bee A350 landing

Fri Jul 16, 2021 8:42 am

wingman wrote:
Case study for single pilot ops. The story doesn’t mention souls on board but they’d all be in heaven by now.


Not really. Well it's an interesting case, but for example I would expect the autopilot to be always on in single pilot ops. And there wouldn't be confusion about who is doing what, or worse someone doing something stupid and unexpected, like deploying the speed-brakes.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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zeke
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Re: Confusion during French Bee A350 landing

Fri Jul 16, 2021 8:52 am

reltney wrote:
Holy cow. How you can lose control of a flyable aircraft with 3 pilots aboard. Many problems here. Aviate Navigate and when you get a chance, Communicate with atc.

Cheers


There was no loss of control in the article, there was a failure to follow an ATC instruction/clearance, that is not the same.

What the FO should have done is put the autopilot in prior to commencing the go-around, 1350 to 2000 ft is a low level level off with the potential of windshear.
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Aesma
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Re: Confusion during French Bee A350 landing

Fri Jul 16, 2021 9:34 am

Did ATC know the go around was initiated because of a windshear alert ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Vicenza
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Re: Confusion during French Bee A350 landing

Fri Jul 16, 2021 1:55 pm

Heinkel wrote:
So much about advantages of having three people on the flight deck. In this case it only added confusion.

Just another example, how unsafe this manual flying is.


Yet it was safe enough for very many decades with proper pilots.
 
Weatherwatcher1
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Re: Confusion during French Bee A350 landing

Fri Jul 16, 2021 2:37 pm

The ways that the alerts were occurring in the flight deck is rather interesting. The dependence on automation with limited basic airmanship could have had significant consequences.

I find it interesting that the speed brakes were retracted due to the increased thrust command, but the speed brake handle remained up. Why is that? My question is whether it is designed that way or not. I was under the impression that the speedbrake lever would retract if the spoilers were commanded to be retracted due to the takeoff thrust (we can credit the American 757 crash in Colombia for that feature).
 
kalvado
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Re: Confusion during French Bee A350 landing

Fri Jul 16, 2021 2:45 pm

It may be worth mentioning, that the accident happened in a pre-covid era, February 2020. It probably surfaced due to final report being released this week.
https://www.avherald.com/h?article=4d39c0fe&opt=0
 
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Revelation
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Re: Confusion during French Bee A350 landing

Fri Jul 16, 2021 3:28 pm

Some older tweets from Peter Lemme that I think are interesting/related:

Designing automatic flight controls is an art.
Pilots monitoring must be fully aware of the mode.
Each sets personal performance expectations.
Mode confusion, especially degraded or unexpected operation, is the dominant threat to aviation safety.
Human factors cannot be denied.

Ref: https://twitter.com/Satcom_Guru/status/ ... 3274008576

JT610 mode confusion, unknown mode
AF447 mode confusion, envelope protection
OZ214 mode confusion, speed protection
EK521 mode confusion, thrust mode
TK6491 mode confusion, glide slope
AF072 mode confusion, thrust mode
A320 Habsheim, mode confusion, thrust mode

Ref: https://twitter.com/Satcom_Guru/status/ ... 5003486208

Saying every system on the airplane must be fail-safe, that the pilot is not part of the response to failure and malfunction, is much bigger than voting sensor inputs.
Pilots should be accountable for airspeed and altitude.
Pilots should be accountable to mode display.


Ref: https://twitter.com/Satcom_Guru/status/ ... 6622727168

All these incidents make me wonder if the training ecosystem is emphasizing mode awareness enough, or if the industry is expecting too much from pilots with regard to mode awareness especially when the pilots are in a stressful situation.
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paullam
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Re: Confusion during French Bee A350 landing

Fri Jul 16, 2021 4:41 pm

Another question that came to my mind as I was reading the article:

ATC ordered the A350 to turn to heading 180 which resulted in that conflicting situation with the AF flight. Couldn’t this have been avoided by not letting it turn left?

I’m not aware of standard GA procedures in ORY and obviously we don’t know all the details but it got me wondering.
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N1120A
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Re: Confusion during French Bee A350 landing

Fri Jul 30, 2021 6:39 am

Heinkel wrote:
So much about advantages of having three people on the flight deck. In this case it only added confusion.

Just another example, how unsafe this manual flying is.


Lol. How unsafe manual flying is? Now that is a mentality that will get people killed.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
Heinkel
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Re: Confusion during French Bee A350 landing

Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:04 am

N1120A wrote:
Heinkel wrote:
So much about advantages of having three people on the flight deck. In this case it only added confusion.

Just another example, how unsafe this manual flying is.


Lol. How unsafe manual flying is? Now that is a mentality that will get people killed.


Nope. Sky gods taking too much risk are killing much more people. Every statistic says that.

And the CL 600 crash at TRK a few days ago shows just that, too.
 
rbavfan
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Re: Confusion during French Bee A350 landing

Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:46 am

Heinkel wrote:
N1120A wrote:
Heinkel wrote:
So much about advantages of having three people on the flight deck. In this case it only added confusion.

Just another example, how unsafe this manual flying is.


Lol. How unsafe manual flying is? Now that is a mentality that will get people killed.


Nope. Sky gods taking too much risk are killing much more people. Every statistic says that.

And the CL 600 crash at TRK a few days ago shows just that, too.



Why too soon to make a decision on the CL 600 crash. A lot to early to decide that.
 
airbuster
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Re: Confusion during French Bee A350 landing

Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:33 am

Thats why we have startle and surpise training these days.
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randomdude83
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Re: Confusion during French Bee A350 landing

Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:37 am

Heinkel wrote:
So much about advantages of having three people on the flight deck. In this case it only added confusion.

Just another example, how unsafe this manual flying is.


You should check UA1175, it took three crew members to save 375 people from death.
 
mhockey31091
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Re: Confusion during French Bee A350 landing

Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:23 pm

Heinkel wrote:
N1120A wrote:
Heinkel wrote:
So much about advantages of having three people on the flight deck. In this case it only added confusion.

Just another example, how unsafe this manual flying is.


Lol. How unsafe manual flying is? Now that is a mentality that will get people killed.


Nope. Sky gods taking too much risk are killing much more people. Every statistic says that.

And the CL 600 crash at TRK a few days ago shows just that, too.

Taking too much risk? They were flying the airplane, that's not risk that's their job. It's easy for someone who isn't a pilot to Monday morning quarterback a situation when you have no idea what you're talking about. The risks of those are airplanes is the automation and how much of a crutch it is to pilots and they get rusty on how to actually fly.
 
graceintheair
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Re: Confusion during French Bee A350 landing

Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:45 pm

randomdude83 wrote:
Heinkel wrote:
So much about advantages of having three people on the flight deck. In this case it only added confusion.

Just another example, how unsafe this manual flying is.


You should check UA1175, it took three crew members to save 375 people from death.


I certainly did not get that impression from reading the report. The even taxied to the gate and deplaned normally. Nothing like United 232 where they did need every crew member to pull off what they did.
 
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AirlineCritic
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Re: Confusion during French Bee A350 landing

Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:48 pm

I'm very glad that this event turned out fine in the end. But it is interesting how a quickly a single situation (alarms, a rare go-around) can confuse/startle one person. And how this lead to two pilots being confused / uncoordinated in the cockpit, and then how computers and and two confused pilots impacted captain's performance. How small is the difference between everything being ok and the potential for catastrophe...
 
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zeke
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Re: Confusion during French Bee A350 landing

Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:52 pm

AirlineCritic wrote:
I'm very glad that this event turned out fine in the end. But it is interesting how a quickly a single situation (alarms, a rare go-around) can confuse/startle one person. And how this lead to two pilots being confused / uncoordinated in the cockpit, and then how computers and and two confused pilots impacted captain's performance. How small is the difference between everything being ok and the potential for catastrophe...


Considering none of that really happened.....i.e. no alarms, go arounds are not rare for pilots, they are regularly trained. All it was is a go around where the difference between the altitude they commenced the go around and the level off altitude was very small, and in that time the captain asked for the FO to change from TOGA to GO AROUND SOFT which really achieved nothing but to increase the FO/PF workload. The FOs initial actions were correct.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
Galwayman
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Re: Confusion during French Bee A350 landing

Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:26 pm

Too many pilots . Two is the perfect number for communication
 
F27500
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Re: Confusion during French Bee A350 landing

Fri Jul 30, 2021 2:55 pm

.. and what exactly does the name "French Bee" mean ?
 
FlapOperator
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Re: Confusion during French Bee A350 landing

Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:00 pm

Galwayman wrote:
Too many pilots . Two is the perfect number for communication


Depends. For the purposes of go-arounds at any airline I've worked out, we brief that a jumpseater can call a go-around for any reason.

That could be a guy not even typed on the airplane.
 
kalvado
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Re: Confusion during French Bee A350 landing

Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:17 pm

F27500 wrote:
.. and what exactly does the name "French Bee" mean ?

More or less the same as "American Airilines" or "Air Canada" - the name of the home state and something flight-related.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Confusion during French Bee A350 landing

Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:28 pm

It was called French Blue until JetBlue made a stink.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
F27500
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Re: Confusion during French Bee A350 landing

Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:41 pm

kalvado wrote:
F27500 wrote:
.. and what exactly does the name "French Bee" mean ?

More or less the same as "American Airilines" or "Air Canada" - the name of the home state and something flight-related.


Then i think "French Pterodactyl" or "French Dodo Bird" would even have been better. But naming an airline after an insect ? ;)
 
Italianflyer
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Re: Confusion during French Bee A350 landing

Sat Jul 31, 2021 3:07 am

F27500 wrote:
kalvado wrote:
F27500 wrote:
.. and what exactly does the name "French Bee" mean ?

More or less the same as "American Airilines" or "Air Canada" - the name of the home state and something flight-related.


Then i think "French Pterodactyl" or "French Dodo Bird" would even have been better. But naming an airline after an insect ? ;)


I guess that's why the consultants nixed the idea of JALs latest ultra low cost, high end ultra extreme long distance yet budget division 'Japanese Murder Hornet'.
 
N1120A
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Re: Confusion during French Bee A350 landing

Sat Jul 31, 2021 10:28 am

Heinkel wrote:
N1120A wrote:
Heinkel wrote:
So much about advantages of having three people on the flight deck. In this case it only added confusion.

Just another example, how unsafe this manual flying is.


Lol. How unsafe manual flying is? Now that is a mentality that will get people killed.


Nope. Sky gods taking too much risk are killing much more people. Every statistic says that.

And the CL 600 crash at TRK a few days ago shows just that, too.


You think they are doing autolands or autopilot to DH at TRK?! Lol. That is exactly the kind of place where the ability to fly the airplane is so important. Also, like someone mentioned, no autopilot was gonna save UA1175. That took the prodigious hand flying skill of Captain Borzu Behnam and the fantastic CRM of the two other pilots with him to get that plane into HNL safely.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
F27500
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Re: Confusion during French Bee A350 landing

Sat Jul 31, 2021 2:12 pm

Italianflyer wrote:
F27500 wrote:
kalvado wrote:
More or less the same as "American Airilines" or "Air Canada" - the name of the home state and something flight-related.


Then i think "French Pterodactyl" or "French Dodo Bird" would even have been better. But naming an airline after an insect ? ;)


I guess that's why the consultants nixed the idea of JALs latest ultra low cost, high end ultra extreme long distance yet budget division 'Japanese Murder Hornet'.



LOL!! OK now that one i like!
 
FlapOperator
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Re: Confusion during French Bee A350 landing

Sat Jul 31, 2021 7:05 pm

wingman wrote:
Case study for single pilot ops. The story doesn’t mention souls on board but they’d all be in heaven by now.


I don't know where you get a hull loss from a startled and poorly performed go-around.
 
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AirKevin
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Re: Confusion during French Bee A350 landing

Sun Aug 01, 2021 10:29 pm

graceintheair wrote:
randomdude83 wrote:
Heinkel wrote:
So much about advantages of having three people on the flight deck. In this case it only added confusion.

Just another example, how unsafe this manual flying is.

You should check UA1175, it took three crew members to save 375 people from death.

I certainly did not get that impression from reading the report.

Tell that to the Captain, who said it himself in an interview. He didn't take his hands off the yoke or thrust levers at all because he wasn't taking his chances. He was focused on flying, the other two were doing everything else. One of the pilots actually had to put his shoulder harness on for him.
Captain Kevin
 
graceintheair
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Re: Confusion during French Bee A350 landing

Sun Aug 01, 2021 11:26 pm

AirKevin wrote:
graceintheair wrote:
randomdude83 wrote:
You should check UA1175, it took three crew members to save 375 people from death.

I certainly did not get that impression from reading the report.

Tell that to the Captain, who said it himself in an interview. He didn't take his hands off the yoke or thrust levers at all because he wasn't taking his chances. He was focused on flying, the other two were doing everything else. One of the pilots actually had to put his shoulder harness on for him.


The aerodynamic forces will overpower any human strength should something catastrophic occur. So I'm not sure what that would do. I was just pointing out that there was no event upon landing and they taxied to the gate and unloaded as they normally would. Obviously something went wrong. But maybe research some other accidents for comparison sake. I certainly wouldy label it the landing of the century.

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