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asuflyer
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UPS B748 Engine Fire at HKG

Wed Jul 21, 2021 2:44 pm

A UPS Boeing 747-8 registration N624UP, operating UPS Flight 5X-3 departed HKG for DXB. Shortly after takeoff the crew reportedly received an engine fire warning and immediately returned to Hong Kong. Upon landing emergency services from the Hong Kong Airport Fire Contingent extinguished the fire.

Video of the engine fire

https://twitter.com/aviationbrk/status/ ... 65154?s=20
 
 
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Spacepope
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Re: UPS B748 Engine Fire at HKG

Wed Jul 21, 2021 7:17 pm

The twitter vid showing flames coming out of the engine after landing and getting put out by fire services is pretty amazing. Glad they got it down in time, an expensive fix with an engine swap and fire damaged flaps.
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tomaheath
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Re: UPS B748 Engine Fire at HKG

Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:38 pm

Glade everyone is ok and the airframe seems ok as well. Hopefully this queen will be back in the air in no time.
 
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Revelation
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Re: UPS B748 Engine Fire at HKG

Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:52 pm

Spacepope wrote:
The twitter vid showing flames coming out of the engine after landing and getting put out by fire services is pretty amazing. Glad they got it down in time, an expensive fix with an engine swap and fire damaged flaps.

Will it buff out? :D

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Ref: https://twitter.com/aviationbrk/status/ ... 65154?s=20
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PixelPilot
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Re: UPS B748 Engine Fire at HKG

Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:00 pm

Maybe I'm blind but I don't even see major burnmarks.
 
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Boeing757100
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Re: UPS B748 Engine Fire at HKG

Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:02 pm

Nice they were able to put her down safely! What'll the costs be for repairing/replacing the engine and repairing the damaged flaps?
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Re: UPS B748 Engine Fire at HKG

Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:30 pm

Revelation wrote:
Spacepope wrote:
The twitter vid showing flames coming out of the engine after landing and getting put out by fire services is pretty amazing. Glad they got it down in time, an expensive fix with an engine swap and fire damaged flaps.

Will it buff out? :D

Image

Ref: https://twitter.com/aviationbrk/status/ ... 65154?s=20


Clearly a write off, unless of course somebody flies me over there with some bonds
The last of the famous international playboys
 
crownvic
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Re: UPS B748 Engine Fire at HKG

Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:17 am

Hopefully, not another reason for UPS to raise their rates again this year!
 
DaCubbyBearBar
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Re: UPS B748 Engine Fire at HKG

Thu Jul 22, 2021 9:40 am

WOW… GREAT JOB BY ALL to get it back on the ground… Crazy pictures
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Noshow
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Re: UPS B748 Engine Fire at HKG

Thu Jul 22, 2021 9:57 am

Impressive, that it can land being so much overweight without many problems.
 
PANAMsterdam
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Re: UPS B748 Engine Fire at HKG

Thu Jul 22, 2021 10:49 am

Question for the experts: I know all aircraft have fire suppression systems in each engine. The 747 is no different. Why didn't the pilots use it or (in case they did) why didn't it work? Because the flames were clearly coming out of the engine upon landing.
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787SIN
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Re: UPS B748 Engine Fire at HKG

Thu Jul 22, 2021 10:54 am

Boeing757100 wrote:
Nice they were able to put her down safely! What'll the costs be for repairing/replacing the engine and repairing the damaged flaps?


Looks like it maybe a under cowl fire, if it hadn’t been foamed then may be a couple of TR shop visits, which probably would be repairable but if not $2.5mil each side. Engine external parts maybe another $1mil for a shop visit.

But as its been foamed, possibly a full set of turbine blades, potentially disks, bearings may be required the fan/compressor may be cleanable. $5-10mil, could be a good starting point.

Flaps may have got lucky and could just be sooting, but would need a good clean, inspection and re-lube of all moving parts.

So all in, could be as much as $10-15mil.
Last edited by 787SIN on Thu Jul 22, 2021 10:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
SwissCanuck
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Re: UPS B748 Engine Fire at HKG

Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:10 am

Revelation wrote:

Will it buff out? :D


Just put it in a bag of rice for a few days.
 
orlandocfi
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Re: UPS B748 Engine Fire at HKG

Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:17 am

PANAMsterdam wrote:
Question for the experts: I know all aircraft have fire suppression systems in each engine. The 747 is no different. Why didn't the pilots use it or (in case they did) why didn't it work? Because the flames were clearly coming out of the engine upon landing.


I’m sure they used their fire bottles, but a continuous fuel leak inside a hot engine could easily reignite. Not saying that’s what it was, but there are definitely scenarios where the capabilities of a protection system are exceeded.
 
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747classic
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Re: UPS B748 Engine Fire at HKG

Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:40 am

orlandocfi wrote:
PANAMsterdam wrote:
Question for the experts: I know all aircraft have fire suppression systems in each engine. The 747 is no different. Why didn't the pilots use it or (in case they did) why didn't it work? Because the flames were clearly coming out of the engine upon landing.


I’m sure they used their fire bottles, but a continuous fuel leak inside a hot engine could easily reignite. Not saying that’s what it was, but there are definitely scenarios where the capabilities of a protection system are exceeded.


:checkmark: A fuel leak (in the pylon) upstream of the fuel shut off vlv (or a malfuction of the fuel shut off vlv) can cause a difficult to extinguish engine fire.

Luckely the aircraft returned to HKG, a well equipped station, with most of the spare parts and qualified maintenance staff available. Additional needed spares can be flown in easy.
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
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Aquila3
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Re: UPS B748 Engine Fire at HKG

Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:52 am

A fire that cannot be estiguished by the Fuel Cutoff Valve is a very serious matter an potentially catastrophic. I am sure the FAA will look in deep into it especially vs EROPS. What if this happens in the middle of tha Pacific with the passenger version?
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N14AZ
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Re: UPS B748 Engine Fire at HKG

Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:13 pm

Image
Source: https://mobile.twitter.com/aviationbrk/ ... 65154?s=20

Call me over cautious but who would have the nerves to take such a picture while this massive engine is burning in front of you… :scratchchin:
 
787SIN
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Re: UPS B748 Engine Fire at HKG

Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:19 pm

Aquila3 wrote:
A fire that cannot be estiguished by the Fuel Cutoff Valve is a very serious matter an potentially catastrophic. I am sure the FAA will look in deep into it especially vs EROPS. What if this happens in the middle of tha Pacific with the passenger version?


As its a GE engine all the wet stuff is under the TRs, so both LP and HP fuel. If the fire handle is pulled it will close both the LP valve and HP valve.

If a leak was on the LP side, that would mean the whole line between the LP valve and leak would still be able to drain before the fuel source is exhausted. The LP valve if Boeing hasn’t relocated it on the -8 and if my memory is correct from the -400 is on the forward spar just inboard of each engine, so a fair amount of line to drain.

If the leak was on the HP side then a bit less to drain away after the HMU, but could still be a reasonable amount on a large engine.

So both of the above will result in some fuel leak even after the valves are closed from residual fuel in the lines, so the effect will never be immediate. This also doesn’t take into account how long a leak has existed and the resultant pooling of fuel on surfaces where it could perhaps accumulate.
 
Stork787
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Re: UPS B748 Engine Fire at HKG

Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:56 pm

engine caught fire upon landing .similiar to SQ on back few year ago
 
ILNFlyer
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Re: UPS B748 Engine Fire at HKG

Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:39 pm

orlandocfi wrote:
PANAMsterdam wrote:
Question for the experts: I know all aircraft have fire suppression systems in each engine. The 747 is no different. Why didn't the pilots use it or (in case they did) why didn't it work? Because the flames were clearly coming out of the engine upon landing.


I’m sure they used their fire bottles, but a continuous fuel leak inside a hot engine could easily reignite. Not saying that’s what it was, but there are definitely scenarios where the capabilities of a protection system are exceeded.


The AV Herald article states the pilots used both bottles.
 
PANAMsterdam
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Re: UPS B748 Engine Fire at HKG

Thu Jul 22, 2021 3:17 pm

ILNFlyer wrote:
orlandocfi wrote:
PANAMsterdam wrote:
Question for the experts: I know all aircraft have fire suppression systems in each engine. The 747 is no different. Why didn't the pilots use it or (in case they did) why didn't it work? Because the flames were clearly coming out of the engine upon landing.


I’m sure they used their fire bottles, but a continuous fuel leak inside a hot engine could easily reignite. Not saying that’s what it was, but there are definitely scenarios where the capabilities of a protection system are exceeded.


The AV Herald article states the pilots used both bottles.


Thank you for your answers.

Gosh, those pilots must have had their colleagues from UPS6 on their minds for a second when the fire alarm went off, even being it the engine and not the cargo itself.
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flyPIT
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Re: UPS B748 Engine Fire at HKG

Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:43 pm

N14AZ wrote:
Image
Source: https://mobile.twitter.com/aviationbrk/ ... 65154?s=20

Call me over cautious but who would have the nerves to take such a picture while this massive engine is burning in front of you… :scratchchin:

Most likely those are simply screenshots taken from the ARFF vehicle's video and/or body cams done after the event.
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747classic
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Re: UPS B748 Engine Fire at HKG

Thu Jul 22, 2021 5:18 pm

Stork787 wrote:
engine caught fire upon landing .similiar to SQ on back few year ago


During approach and landing the air speed decreases, so the airflow through the (shut off) engine is diminished : conseq. fuel(vapour) can ignite again in these conditions inside the still hot engine.
But there will be an investigation, so the excact cause will emerge.
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
travaz
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Re: UPS B748 Engine Fire at HKG

Thu Jul 22, 2021 5:38 pm

I wonder if NTSB will be involved in the investigation? I would hope that they will be invited.
 
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flee
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Re: UPS B748 Engine Fire at HKG

Thu Jul 22, 2021 5:58 pm

travaz wrote:
I wonder if NTSB will be involved in the investigation? I would hope that they will be invited.

US manufactured aircraft and engines - NTSB will be investigating!
 
chimborazo
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Re: UPS B748 Engine Fire at HKG

Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:07 pm

PANAMsterdam wrote:
ILNFlyer wrote:
orlandocfi wrote:

I’m sure they used their fire bottles, but a continuous fuel leak inside a hot engine could easily reignite. Not saying that’s what it was, but there are definitely scenarios where the capabilities of a protection system are exceeded.


The AV Herald article states the pilots used both bottles.


Thank you for your answers.

Gosh, those pilots must have had their colleagues from UPS6 on their minds for a second when the fire alarm went off, even being it the engine and not the cargo itself.


I very much doubt it. They will have been thinking: what are my immediate actions (memory checklist), what are the checklist items, then making the decisions which in this case resulted in a safe landing. They will have performed this scenario many times in training.
 
Ziyulu
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Re: UPS B748 Engine Fire at HKG

Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:38 pm

Has any 787 ever had a similar incident before? Since the 787 has the same engines as the 748.
 
nycbjr
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Re: UPS B748 Engine Fire at HKG

Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:20 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
Has any 787 ever had a similar incident before? Since the 787 has the same engines as the 748.


not exactly the same, these are the bleed air versions.. not that it changes your question any! I'm sure they will look at both versions.
 
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Re: UPS B748 Engine Fire at HKG

Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:08 pm

flee wrote:
travaz wrote:
I wonder if NTSB will be involved in the investigation? I would hope that they will be invited.

US manufactured aircraft and engines - NTSB will be investigating!


The NTSB is an automatic part of the investigation team if Hong Kong or China assembles an investigation team (I'm not sure if Hong Kong or China has the lead because of the special status of Hong Kong); because the NTSB represents the country of manufacture and certification for both the engines and the aircraft.

However, Hong Kong or China would run the investigation and produce the report.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: UPS B748 Engine Fire at HKG

Fri Jul 23, 2021 2:03 am

[nevermind]
 
Captaincurious
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Re: UPS B748 Engine Fire at HKG

Fri Jul 23, 2021 2:22 am

Hong Kong Civil Aviation Authority would produce a report.
 
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Aquila3
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Re: UPS B748 Engine Fire at HKG

Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:28 am

Stork787 wrote:
engine caught fire upon landing .similiar to SQ on back few year ago

I thought the landing was actually caused by the engine fire, and not vice versa, sorry.
flee wrote:
travaz wrote:
I wonder if NTSB will be involved in the investigation? I would hope that they will be invited.

US manufactured aircraft and engines - NTSB will be investigating!

Not only. It is a N-registered aircraft...
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zeke
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Re: UPS B748 Engine Fire at HKG

Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:50 am

PANAMsterdam wrote:
Question for the experts: I know all aircraft have fire suppression systems in each engine. The 747 is no different. Why didn't the pilots use it or (in case they did) why didn't it work? Because the flames were clearly coming out of the engine upon landing.


Engines are supposed to be on fire, that is how the combustion of the fuel is contained to expand gas to drive the turbine. Fire detection and suppression systems work in the space between the engine lining and the engine cowl where all the pipes and system run.

I understand the fire was out on landing after the pilots had run the initial exceedance and then fire checklists, however reignited once they stopped on the runway. The flames coming out of the engine I would describe as being a tailpipe fire, ie a fuel inside the engine lining (maybe even engine oil from a blown seal or bearing) which can sometimes happen upon shutdown. Normally these are put out by cranking the engine over under they fire burns itself out.

flee wrote:
travaz wrote:
I wonder if NTSB will be involved in the investigation? I would hope that they will be invited.

US manufactured aircraft and engines - NTSB will be investigating!


No, the state the incident occurs does the investigation, in this case it will be the Air Accident Investigation Authority (AAIA). The NTSB representing the state of manufacture of engine, airframe, and registration would normally be asked as an observer.

In due course the report will be located here https://www.thb.gov.hk/aaia/eng/investi ... /index.htm
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WayexTDI
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Re: UPS B748 Engine Fire at HKG

Fri Jul 23, 2021 3:19 pm

zeke wrote:
flee wrote:
travaz wrote:
I wonder if NTSB will be involved in the investigation? I would hope that they will be invited.

US manufactured aircraft and engines - NTSB will be investigating!


No, the state the incident occurs does the investigation, in this case it will be the Air Accident Investigation Authority (AAIA). The NTSB representing the state of manufacture of engine, airframe, and registration would normally be asked as an observer.

In due course the report will be located here https://www.thb.gov.hk/aaia/eng/investi ... /index.htm

Since the aircraft is on the US FAA Registry, isn't the US NTSB automatically involved as more than an observer?
 
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zeke
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Re: UPS B748 Engine Fire at HKG

Fri Jul 23, 2021 3:53 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
Since the aircraft is on the US FAA Registry, isn't the US NTSB automatically involved as more than an observer?


No, as the event occurred within an ICAO contracting state, it is the state of occurrence responsibility to conduct the investigation. ICAO Annex 13 is the basis for this. The Air Accident Investigation Authority (AAIA) is obliged to notify the NTSB, and the NTSB is obliged to provide the AAIA any information it requests.

I wouldn't be surprised for example if the engine is removed and sent back to GE, and then GE furnish a report via the NTSB back to the AAIA.

The NTSB would undertake the investigation if it occurred within the US, or if the event occurs in a place that is not an ICAO contracting state (like overwater) as the state of registry.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
kalvado
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Re: UPS B748 Engine Fire at HKG

Fri Jul 23, 2021 6:30 pm

zeke wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Since the aircraft is on the US FAA Registry, isn't the US NTSB automatically involved as more than an observer?


No, as the event occurred within an ICAO contracting state, it is the state of occurrence responsibility to conduct the investigation. ICAO Annex 13 is the basis for this. The Air Accident Investigation Authority (AAIA) is obliged to notify the NTSB, and the NTSB is obliged to provide the AAIA any information it requests.

I wouldn't be surprised for example if the engine is removed and sent back to GE, and then GE furnish a report via the NTSB back to the AAIA.

The NTSB would undertake the investigation if it occurred within the US, or if the event occurs in a place that is not an ICAO contracting state (like overwater) as the state of registry.

How diversion from international airspace is treated - as occurring outside of contracting state, or as occurring at landing site?
 
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zeke
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Re: UPS B748 Engine Fire at HKG

Fri Jul 23, 2021 6:40 pm

kalvado wrote:
How diversion from international airspace is treated - as occurring outside of contracting state, or as occurring at landing site?


The landing, eg CAL006 the NTSB did the investigation on a Taiwanese Aircraft for an event that occurred in international airspace.
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flyPIT
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Re: UPS B748 Engine Fire at HKG

Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:14 pm

The accident report will be produced by the HKG authorities but the investigation itself may be delegated to another ICAO State if needed (I'm not suggesting that will be the case here). Also, the State of the aircraft manufacturer and operator has the right to have an investigator on the investigation team.
FLYi
 
WayexTDI
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Re: UPS B748 Engine Fire at HKG

Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:48 pm

zeke wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Since the aircraft is on the US FAA Registry, isn't the US NTSB automatically involved as more than an observer?


No, as the event occurred within an ICAO contracting state, it is the state of occurrence responsibility to conduct the investigation. ICAO Annex 13 is the basis for this. The Air Accident Investigation Authority (AAIA) is obliged to notify the NTSB, and the NTSB is obliged to provide the AAIA any information it requests.

I wouldn't be surprised for example if the engine is removed and sent back to GE, and then GE furnish a report via the NTSB back to the AAIA.

The NTSB would undertake the investigation if it occurred within the US, or if the event occurs in a place that is not an ICAO contracting state (like overwater) as the state of registry.

Thank you for that detailed answer.
 
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747classic
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Re: UPS B748 Engine Fire at HKG

Fri Aug 13, 2021 7:19 am

N624UP has been repaired,
First flight HKG- ANC at August 11th 2021, see : https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N62 ... /VHHH/PANC
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.

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