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asuflyer
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RNO & US West Airports Fuel Shortages

Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:37 pm

The Reno-Tahoe Airport Authority has announced that from Friday July 23rd the airport and other airports primarily in the US West will be facing fuel shortages. It is informing pax in advance that disruptions are to be expected.

https://twitter.com/renoairport/status/ ... 40608?s=21
 
vegasplanes
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Re: RNO & US West Airports Fuel Shortages

Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:36 am

Interesting - poor planning by the airlines and Swissport at RNO as jet fuel is supplied by pipeline, not trucked in. Can not find any filings regarding problems with the SFPP line which serves the metro area or WestPac (Buckeye) line to the airport. Would think the issue would effect smaller fields such as EKO or the periphery fields such as Stead which rely on jet fuel trucked in from terminals or refineries.
 
DaCubbyBearBar
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Re: RNO & US West Airports Fuel Shortages

Fri Jul 23, 2021 1:02 am

Crazy….. apparently what we have here is a failure to communicate… I find it amazing that they are so low on fuel
 
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macsog6
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Re: RNO & US West Airports Fuel Shortages

Fri Jul 23, 2021 1:17 am

The airport authority at RNO seems to be rather short-sighted. As a frequent traveler from there, some of their decisions seem to me to be downright myopic. It begins with a massive renovation of the airport security areas, but they failed, as part of the work, to include any international capable gates, leading to the use of a portable metal building for customs and then follows on with issues like this one.
 
CMHSRQ
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Re: RNO & US West Airports Fuel Shortages

Fri Jul 23, 2021 1:18 am

It’s not just Reno, it’s everywhere out west. Refiners aren’t producing jet fuel, not enough truck drivers to deliver it. Demand skyrocketing due to airline, biz jets and massive firefighting needs.
 
jetmatt777
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Re: RNO & US West Airports Fuel Shortages

Fri Jul 23, 2021 1:38 am

CMHSRQ wrote:
It’s not just Reno, it’s everywhere out west. Refiners aren’t producing jet fuel, not enough truck drivers to deliver it. Demand skyrocketing due to airline, biz jets and massive firefighting needs.


Pretty much every medium sized airport and larger has fuel delivered by pipeline, not truck. Usually it will go from the refinery via pipeline to an outbound rail terminal, and then every city usually has a receiving rail terminal that handles petroleum products that has a pipeline to major users of fuel such as airports and army bases. The receiving terminal will also usually have an autogas terminal that will fill tanker trucks with gasoline and diesel to supply gas stations. Driver shortages are not impacting airports receiving fuel, but they can impact hiring for fuel truck drivers on the airport but these typically are not CDL positions given that it is an off-highway job.

In a lot of areas the refinery is close enough to have a direct line from it to the airport, bypassing rail or barge.

Fuel is ordered by the airlines and batched together. The airlines allocate the pre-purchased fuel to be delivered. At large airports like PDX (I worked at that fuel tank farm managing fuel deliveries) you could receive a million+ gallons at a time via pipeline. It wasn’t the airport’s fuel, it is all of the airline’s fuel. It is all batched together and paid for by them months ago when they purchased the contract. In the fuel tanks, the fuel is divided up on paper by how much the airline had delivered to us vs how much was loaded on their airplanes. It was their job to order the fuel and allocate it to the various airports they serve. Their fuel supplier handles the logistics of sending it to the different airports once they allocate it. Once it arrives at the offload terminal it is all pumped to the airport together. DL, AA, UA, WN etc. fuel is all mixed in. When that fuel is pumped into the airplane the fuel is removed from their allotment in the tank. They receive weekly reports on what they have left in their allotment.

It was probably my most favorite job in aviation because I love logistics.
 
hayzel777
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Re: RNO & US West Airports Fuel Shortages

Fri Jul 23, 2021 4:29 am

Rumor has it the pipeline feeding RNO had its certifications lapse by accident, therefore cutting off the pipeline’s supply. RNO has been trucking it in for the short-term but there aren’t enough drivers. What a joke.
 
hiflyeras
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Re: RNO & US West Airports Fuel Shortages

Fri Jul 23, 2021 2:47 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
Fuel is ordered by the airlines and batched together. The airlines allocate the pre-purchased fuel to be delivered. At large airports like PDX (I worked at that fuel tank farm managing fuel deliveries) you could receive a million+ gallons at a time via pipeline. It wasn’t the airport’s fuel, it is all of the airline’s fuel. It is all batched together and paid for by them months ago when they purchased the contract. In the fuel tanks, the fuel is divided up on paper by how much the airline had delivered to us vs how much was loaded on their airplanes. It was their job to order the fuel and allocate it to the various airports they serve. Their fuel supplier handles the logistics of sending it to the different airports once they allocate it. Once it arrives at the offload terminal it is all pumped to the airport together. DL, AA, UA, WN etc. fuel is all mixed in. When that fuel is pumped into the airplane the fuel is removed from their allotment in the tank. They receive weekly reports on what they have left in their allotment.

It was probably my most favorite job in aviation because I love logistics.


This was really interesting, jetmatt! Thanks!!
 
alasizon
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Re: RNO & US West Airports Fuel Shortages

Fri Jul 23, 2021 3:04 pm

It isn't just RNO though, the entire West has been having this issue. ACV, RDM, MFR, EUG, PDX, DRO, ASE and FAT have all logged fuel shortages in the past 30 days due to not receiving their scheduled deliveries (some are pipeline, some are not).

In RNO's case it sounds like the fuel consortium is rationing and cutting certain fuelers smaller pieces of the pie but not others. World Fuel supposedly caters to Swissport and Atlantic (the FBO) and reportedly got their supply cut while other fuel providers did not.
 
floridaflyboy
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Re: RNO & US West Airports Fuel Shortages

Fri Jul 23, 2021 3:38 pm

hiflyeras wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:
Fuel is ordered by the airlines and batched together. The airlines allocate the pre-purchased fuel to be delivered. At large airports like PDX (I worked at that fuel tank farm managing fuel deliveries) you could receive a million+ gallons at a time via pipeline. It wasn’t the airport’s fuel, it is all of the airline’s fuel. It is all batched together and paid for by them months ago when they purchased the contract. In the fuel tanks, the fuel is divided up on paper by how much the airline had delivered to us vs how much was loaded on their airplanes. It was their job to order the fuel and allocate it to the various airports they serve. Their fuel supplier handles the logistics of sending it to the different airports once they allocate it. Once it arrives at the offload terminal it is all pumped to the airport together. DL, AA, UA, WN etc. fuel is all mixed in. When that fuel is pumped into the airplane the fuel is removed from their allotment in the tank. They receive weekly reports on what they have left in their allotment.

It was probably my most favorite job in aviation because I love logistics.


This was really interesting, jetmatt! Thanks!!


I second that. That's fascinating. I had no idea how that worked. Thanks.
 
jetmatt777
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Re: RNO & US West Airports Fuel Shortages

Fri Jul 23, 2021 3:58 pm

floridaflyboy wrote:
hiflyeras wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:
Fuel is ordered by the airlines and batched together. The airlines allocate the pre-purchased fuel to be delivered. At large airports like PDX (I worked at that fuel tank farm managing fuel deliveries) you could receive a million+ gallons at a time via pipeline. It wasn’t the airport’s fuel, it is all of the airline’s fuel. It is all batched together and paid for by them months ago when they purchased the contract. In the fuel tanks, the fuel is divided up on paper by how much the airline had delivered to us vs how much was loaded on their airplanes. It was their job to order the fuel and allocate it to the various airports they serve. Their fuel supplier handles the logistics of sending it to the different airports once they allocate it. Once it arrives at the offload terminal it is all pumped to the airport together. DL, AA, UA, WN etc. fuel is all mixed in. When that fuel is pumped into the airplane the fuel is removed from their allotment in the tank. They receive weekly reports on what they have left in their allotment.

It was probably my most favorite job in aviation because I love logistics.


This was really interesting, jetmatt! Thanks!!


I second that. That's fascinating. I had no idea how that worked. Thanks.


I used to think airlines were charged the spot price at whatever airport they filled up in. But the airport is just a storage facility for fuel purchased previously. So, the airline on the market (or via a 3rd party who handles this for them) will purchase jet fuel commodity contracts on the market for a certain delivery date. Usually tens of millions of gallons at a time, this is months out. As it gets closer to the delivery date, they will allocate their delivery. Out of those millions of gallons they purchased 60 days ago, they will have 100k delivered to PDX, 100k delivered to SEA, 5k delivered to EUG, 50k to OKC, etc. At the same time the other airlines have also been doing this. So now the date has come for a delivery to the tank farm. The pipeline operator calls us and asks us to prepare our end for delivery, opening receiving valves and such. They would fax over an authorization letter with how many gallons they are shipping to us, what product (all Jet-A in this case), estimated start of the shipment, and estimated time to complete (usually a shipment would take upwards of 12-24 hours). Let's say this is a shipment of 750,000 gallons - there is no way to know who's purchased fuel it is other than UA has 100k gallons in this shipment, WN has 150k, AS has 250k, etc. It just goes into their "bank" and we tell them how much they have in inventory. The farm is owned and funded by the airlines; it is a co-operative effort with every major airline having a say in the operation and management of the facility. It is their fuel, afterall. They fund the farm by contributing a percentage per gallon stored at the facility. Like 1/4 cent per gallon or something.

Here is some more detail in another post:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1457189&p=22627595&hilit=fuel+pipeline#p22627595
 
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ADent
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Re: RNO & US West Airports Fuel Shortages

Fri Jul 23, 2021 6:35 pm

COS had fuel issues a week or so ago. viewtopic.php?t=1462669
 
Tan Flyr
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Re: RNO & US West Airports Fuel Shortages

Fri Jul 23, 2021 8:31 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
CMHSRQ wrote:
It’s not just Reno, it’s everywhere out west. Refiners aren’t producing jet fuel, not enough truck drivers to deliver it. Demand skyrocketing due to airline, biz jets and massive firefighting needs.


Pretty much every medium sized airport and larger has fuel delivered by pipeline, not truck. Usually it will go from the refinery via pipeline to an outbound rail terminal, and then every city usually has a receiving rail terminal that handles petroleum products that has a pipeline to major users of fuel such as airports and army bases. The receiving terminal will also usually have an autogas terminal that will fill tanker trucks with gasoline and diesel to supply gas stations. Driver shortages are not impacting airports receiving fuel, but they can impact hiring for fuel truck drivers on the airport but these typically are not CDL positions given that it is an off-highway job.

In a lot of areas the refinery is close enough to have a direct line from it to the airport, bypassing rail or barge.

Fuel is ordered by the airlines and batched together. The airlines allocate the pre-purchased fuel to be delivered. At large airports like PDX (I worked at that fuel tank farm managing fuel deliveries) you could receive a million+ gallons at a time via pipeline. It wasn’t the airport’s fuel, it is all of the airline’s fuel. It is all batched together and paid for by them months ago when they purchased the contract. In the fuel tanks, the fuel is divided up on paper by how much the airline had delivered to us vs how much was loaded on their airplanes. It was their job to order the fuel and allocate it to the various airports they serve. Their fuel supplier handles the logistics of sending it to the different airports once they allocate it. Once it arrives at the offload terminal it is all pumped to the airport together. DL, AA, UA, WN etc. fuel is all mixed in. When that fuel is pumped into the airplane the fuel is removed from their allotment in the tank. They receive weekly reports on what they have left in their allotment.

It was probably my most favorite job in aviation because I love logistics.[/quote

Quite interesting..Thanks .
At FAT tho, fuel is trucked about 10 miles from the Kinder-Morgan facility on the SW side of town. Only a 6inch outbound line to Lemoore NAS exists.(maybe a 10 mile line ought to be considered??)
Another issue exacerbating the problem now is that the Marathon Refinery in the east bay area is being revamped to produce only bio-fuels, primarily bio-diesel to comply with upcoming CARB requirements.Additionally, Phillips 66 will be doing the same to thier Rodeo refinery in the same area by 2023 I believe. So the amount of available fuel that can be produced in Nor Cal keeps getting cut..and this is the group of refineries that supplies SMF, RNO, Travis AFB as well as Maher also. ( IMHO,CARB is hell bent on killing the refined fuels business in CA. The airlines need to push back a bit and let folks know what is being done to the cost of travel.)

With the amount of mainline traffic this summer at FAT , including the new Southwest service, I'd bet those guys are hustling daily to keep everyone fueled up and happy.
 
MohawkWeekend
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Re: RNO & US West Airports Fuel Shortages

Fri Jul 23, 2021 9:30 pm

This thread touches on an issue that airlines best be planning for. As much as you can plan for this!

1) Getting a pipeline built in the USA is getting to be almost politically impossible. So the cost of moving fuel to hot new markets is going to go up.
2) Environmental groups want to sue the beejeez out of the oil companies for past sins e.g. hiding global warming etc. Some majors might just say - we are done investing anything in the in the States.
2) CARB wants to shut down refineries or make them much more expensive to operate which will have the same effect.
3) Fewer refineries mean an incident at one the remaining one (most likely the biggest ones) will cause massive disruptions similar to the impact the country felt with the shutdown on the single large product pipeline from the TX/LA refining up the East Coast
4} . As gasoline/diesel demand decreases, marginal refineries will shut down.
6) Weather changes put a lot of refineries in the cross hairs for disruptive flooding and hurricane events.

Airlines and the Government better be considering establishing much larger strategic reserves of petroleum products. And none of this will come cheap
 
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Aaron747
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Re: RNO & US West Airports Fuel Shortages

Fri Jul 23, 2021 11:58 pm

hayzel777 wrote:
Rumor has it the pipeline feeding RNO had its certifications lapse by accident, therefore cutting off the pipeline’s supply. RNO has been trucking it in for the short-term but there aren’t enough drivers. What a joke.


Massive incompetence on the part of regional management if true.
 
MohawkWeekend
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Re: RNO & US West Airports Fuel Shortages

Sat Jul 24, 2021 2:15 am

Trying not to be political too but this will impact aviation hard. The politicians want to reduce the consumption of fossil fuels. They don't have the courage to raise fuel taxes or implement a carbon tax because that will get them voted out of office. Even France and Switzerland found that out. They will instead erode the system we have for producing and distribute fossil fuel energy. This way they can paint it as Big Oil being greedy. Airlines will be dusting off the Delta Airlines playbook of buying a refinery to ensure they have affordable fuel. Edit - maybe not affordable but at least available.
 
CMHSRQ
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Re: RNO & US West Airports Fuel Shortages

Sat Jul 24, 2021 2:38 am

jetmatt777 wrote:
CMHSRQ wrote:
It’s not just Reno, it’s everywhere out west. Refiners aren’t producing jet fuel, not enough truck drivers to deliver it. Demand skyrocketing due to airline, biz jets and massive firefighting needs.


Pretty much every medium sized airport and larger has fuel delivered by pipeline, not truck. Usually it will go from the refinery via pipeline to an outbound rail terminal, and then every city usually has a receiving rail terminal that handles petroleum products that has a pipeline to major users of fuel such as airports and army bases. The receiving terminal will also usually have an autogas terminal that will fill tanker trucks with gasoline and diesel to supply gas stations. Driver shortages are not impacting airports receiving fuel, but they can impact hiring for fuel truck drivers on the airport but these typically are not CDL positions given that it is an off-highway job.

In a lot of areas the refinery is close enough to have a direct line from it to the airport, bypassing rail or barge.

Fuel is ordered by the airlines and batched together. The airlines allocate the pre-purchased fuel to be delivered. At large airports like PDX (I worked at that fuel tank farm managing fuel deliveries) you could receive a million+ gallons at a time via pipeline. It wasn’t the airport’s fuel, it is all of the airline’s fuel. It is all batched together and paid for by them months ago when they purchased the contract. In the fuel tanks, the fuel is divided up on paper by how much the airline had delivered to us vs how much was loaded on their airplanes. It was their job to order the fuel and allocate it to the various airports they serve. Their fuel supplier handles the logistics of sending it to the different airports once they allocate it. Once it arrives at the offload terminal it is all pumped to the airport together. DL, AA, UA, WN etc. fuel is all mixed in. When that fuel is pumped into the airplane the fuel is removed from their allotment in the tank. They receive weekly reports on what they have left in their allotment.

It was probably my most favorite job in aviation because I love logistics.


I sell Jet A and Avgas, the vast majority of US airports are supplied by truck. Our number 1 problem right now is finding truck drivers to haul fuel. Are most large airports supplied via pipelines with consortiums, yes, but that’s just a tiny fraction of the over 5000 US airports.
 
jetmatt777
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Re: RNO & US West Airports Fuel Shortages

Sat Jul 24, 2021 2:54 am

CMHSRQ wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:
CMHSRQ wrote:
It’s not just Reno, it’s everywhere out west. Refiners aren’t producing jet fuel, not enough truck drivers to deliver it. Demand skyrocketing due to airline, biz jets and massive firefighting needs.


Pretty much every medium sized airport and larger has fuel delivered by pipeline, not truck. Usually it will go from the refinery via pipeline to an outbound rail terminal, and then every city usually has a receiving rail terminal that handles petroleum products that has a pipeline to major users of fuel such as airports and army bases. The receiving terminal will also usually have an autogas terminal that will fill tanker trucks with gasoline and diesel to supply gas stations. Driver shortages are not impacting airports receiving fuel, but they can impact hiring for fuel truck drivers on the airport but these typically are not CDL positions given that it is an off-highway job.

In a lot of areas the refinery is close enough to have a direct line from it to the airport, bypassing rail or barge.

Fuel is ordered by the airlines and batched together. The airlines allocate the pre-purchased fuel to be delivered. At large airports like PDX (I worked at that fuel tank farm managing fuel deliveries) you could receive a million+ gallons at a time via pipeline. It wasn’t the airport’s fuel, it is all of the airline’s fuel. It is all batched together and paid for by them months ago when they purchased the contract. In the fuel tanks, the fuel is divided up on paper by how much the airline had delivered to us vs how much was loaded on their airplanes. It was their job to order the fuel and allocate it to the various airports they serve. Their fuel supplier handles the logistics of sending it to the different airports once they allocate it. Once it arrives at the offload terminal it is all pumped to the airport together. DL, AA, UA, WN etc. fuel is all mixed in. When that fuel is pumped into the airplane the fuel is removed from their allotment in the tank. They receive weekly reports on what they have left in their allotment.

It was probably my most favorite job in aviation because I love logistics.


I sell Jet A and Avgas, the vast majority of US airports are supplied by truck. Our number 1 problem right now is finding truck drivers to haul fuel. Are most large airports supplied via pipelines with consortiums, yes, but that’s just a tiny fraction of the over 5000 US airports.


Hence why my very first sentence said medium and large airports - which are the most common that commercial carriers serve. Of course Riverton, WY probably receives via truck. No one implied otherwise. It may be a fraction of total airports, but accounts for a vast majority of gallons the carriers use - by a long shot.
 
travaz
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Re: RNO & US West Airports Fuel Shortages

Sat Jul 24, 2021 4:21 am

My son drives a Semi OTR (all 48 states) and he hardly ever gets home to see his wife and kids. He is highly regulated and must comply with many rules. He makes great money but he has no life. He is looking for a change before all the kids are grown and gone. Trucker shortage is only going to get worse. Why wouldn't he want to haul fuel local? Pile on the regulations and he would have to get more endorsements and pay for background checks every few years. Frozen potato's are a lot easier and pay more. Local fuel haulers get about 40.00 a load (does vary by location) . He gets .89 a mile. Only gonna get worse.
 
LAXLHR
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Re: RNO & US West Airports Fuel Shortages

Sat Jul 24, 2021 4:31 am

alasizon wrote:
It isn't just RNO though, the entire West has been having this issue. ACV, RDM, MFR, EUG, PDX, DRO, ASE and FAT have all logged fuel shortages in the past 30 days due to not receiving their scheduled deliveries (some are pipeline, some are not).

In RNO's case it sounds like the fuel consortium is rationing and cutting certain fuelers smaller pieces of the pie but not others. World Fuel supposedly caters to Swissport and Atlantic (the FBO) and reportedly got their supply cut while other fuel providers did not.


There are no accidents. Everything happens as per someones decision making, and on purpose. I
 
CMHSRQ
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Re: RNO & US West Airports Fuel Shortages

Sat Jul 24, 2021 2:28 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
CMHSRQ wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:

Pretty much every medium sized airport and larger has fuel delivered by pipeline, not truck. Usually it will go from the refinery via pipeline to an outbound rail terminal, and then every city usually has a receiving rail terminal that handles petroleum products that has a pipeline to major users of fuel such as airports and army bases. The receiving terminal will also usually have an autogas terminal that will fill tanker trucks with gasoline and diesel to supply gas stations. Driver shortages are not impacting airports receiving fuel, but they can impact hiring for fuel truck drivers on the airport but these typically are not CDL positions given that it is an off-highway job.

In a lot of areas the refinery is close enough to have a direct line from it to the airport, bypassing rail or barge.

Fuel is ordered by the airlines and batched together. The airlines allocate the pre-purchased fuel to be delivered. At large airports like PDX (I worked at that fuel tank farm managing fuel deliveries) you could receive a million+ gallons at a time via pipeline. It wasn’t the airport’s fuel, it is all of the airline’s fuel. It is all batched together and paid for by them months ago when they purchased the contract. In the fuel tanks, the fuel is divided up on paper by how much the airline had delivered to us vs how much was loaded on their airplanes. It was their job to order the fuel and allocate it to the various airports they serve. Their fuel supplier handles the logistics of sending it to the different airports once they allocate it. Once it arrives at the offload terminal it is all pumped to the airport together. DL, AA, UA, WN etc. fuel is all mixed in. When that fuel is pumped into the airplane the fuel is removed from their allotment in the tank. They receive weekly reports on what they have left in their allotment.

It was probably my most favorite job in aviation because I love logistics.


I sell Jet A and Avgas, the vast majority of US airports are supplied by truck. Our number 1 problem right now is finding truck drivers to haul fuel. Are most large airports supplied via pipelines with consortiums, yes, but that’s just a tiny fraction of the over 5000 US airports.


Hence why my very first sentence said medium and large airports - which are the most common that commercial carriers serve. Of course Riverton, WY probably receives via truck. No one implied otherwise. It may be a fraction of total airports, but accounts for a vast majority of gallons the carriers use - by a long shot.


How many airports are directly served by pipeline in the USA? 20? 30? What % of flights are airport to airport that are pipeline fed. You’re not thinking big picture. Do airlines want to tanker in fuel to undersupplied spokes? CMH has all of the fuel trucked in, medium/large airport. Can’t get enough fuel delivered to meet demand, due to lack of drivers. It’s happening all over the country.
 
USAirKid
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Re: RNO & US West Airports Fuel Shortages

Sat Jul 24, 2021 5:39 pm

CMHSRQ wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:
CMHSRQ wrote:

I sell Jet A and Avgas, the vast majority of US airports are supplied by truck. Our number 1 problem right now is finding truck drivers to haul fuel. Are most large airports supplied via pipelines with consortiums, yes, but that’s just a tiny fraction of the over 5000 US airports.


Hence why my very first sentence said medium and large airports - which are the most common that commercial carriers serve. Of course Riverton, WY probably receives via truck. No one implied otherwise. It may be a fraction of total airports, but accounts for a vast majority of gallons the carriers use - by a long shot.


How many airports are directly served by pipeline in the USA? 20? 30? What % of flights are airport to airport that are pipeline fed. You’re not thinking big picture. Do airlines want to tanker in fuel to undersupplied spokes? CMH has all of the fuel trucked in, medium/large airport. Can’t get enough fuel delivered to meet demand, due to lack of drivers. It’s happening all over the country.


Due to a lack of drivers at a wage the employers are willing to pay.

I’m sure if they were willing to pay more they would find enough drivers.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: RNO & US West Airports Fuel Shortages

Sat Jul 24, 2021 6:07 pm

CMHSRQ wrote:
How many airports are directly served by pipeline in the USA? 20? 30? What % of flights are airport to airport that are pipeline fed.


Seats (or seat miles) would be better proxies for fuel burn than flight counts. So, what fraction of nationwide ASMs do those ~30 pipeline-fed airports represent? The 30 largest airports counted about 70% of total U.S. enplanements in 2018.

I don't doubt there can be localized, short-term distribution problems, but very little nationwide refinery capacity has gone away since 2019, and carriers are only flying about 80% of 2019 ASMs. The U.S., on balance, does not rely on imports of jet fuel. It is a net importer of gasoline and a net exporter of diesel.

https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafH ... -Z00_2&f=M
 
MohawkWeekend
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Re: RNO & US West Airports Fuel Shortages

Sat Jul 24, 2021 6:36 pm

Not be to be that guy but

How much does a Tanker Driver make in Ohio ... - Indeed
https://www.indeed.com › ... › Tanker Driver › Salaries
5 days ago — The average salary for a Tanker Driver is $83692 per year in Ohio.
 
freakyrat
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Re: RNO & US West Airports Fuel Shortages

Sat Jul 24, 2021 7:03 pm

ADent wrote:
COS had fuel issues a week or so ago. viewtopic.php?t=1462669


This is why an American Eagle flight from DFW-SBN was 4 or more hours chronically late for 3 consecutive days a week ago. The aircraft used for the flight originated in Colorado Springs.
 
jetmatt777
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Re: RNO & US West Airports Fuel Shortages

Sat Jul 24, 2021 7:20 pm

freakyrat wrote:
ADent wrote:
COS had fuel issues a week or so ago. viewtopic.php?t=1462669


This is why an American Eagle flight from DFW-SBN was 4 or more hours chronically late for 3 consecutive days a week ago. The aircraft used for the flight originated in Colorado Springs.


COS tank farm is served by a pipeline from the NuStar receiving terminal, which is actually located just outside of the airport. They handle jet fuel, gasoline, and diesel. They have load racks for loading gas/diesel tankers to supply gas stations, and a direct pipeline to the airport tanks.

The COS shortage sounds like there was a pipeline outage, and the contingency plans was to tanker fuel from the NuStar receiving terminal to the tank farm. The driver shortage impacted that contingency plan, but did not contribute to the root cause of the outage.
 
jetmatt777
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Re: RNO & US West Airports Fuel Shortages

Sat Jul 24, 2021 8:21 pm

CMHSRQ wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:
CMHSRQ wrote:

I sell Jet A and Avgas, the vast majority of US airports are supplied by truck. Our number 1 problem right now is finding truck drivers to haul fuel. Are most large airports supplied via pipelines with consortiums, yes, but that’s just a tiny fraction of the over 5000 US airports.


Hence why my very first sentence said medium and large airports - which are the most common that commercial carriers serve. Of course Riverton, WY probably receives via truck. No one implied otherwise. It may be a fraction of total airports, but accounts for a vast majority of gallons the carriers use - by a long shot.


How many airports are directly served by pipeline in the USA? 20? 30? What % of flights are airport to airport that are pipeline fed. You’re not thinking big picture. Do airlines want to tanker in fuel to undersupplied spokes? CMH has all of the fuel trucked in, medium/large airport. Can’t get enough fuel delivered to meet demand, due to lack of drivers. It’s happening all over the country.


Are you 100% positive on CMH? Looking at their facility on Google Earth shows what appears to be a receiving pipe going straight into a receiving valve and a filter behind it. It would take darn near hourly 24/7 deliveries of 10,000 gallon tanker trucks to supply them with enough fuel. Not to mention the testing for each and every batch. That would be a logistical nightmare managing such a congo-line of fuel trucks from the receiving pipeline. Are you referring to the fueling that happens at the gates, or the fuel supplying the tank farm (which supplies the airfield either via hydrant or trucks).
 
MohawkWeekend
Posts: 877
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:06 pm

Re: RNO & US West Airports Fuel Shortages

Sat Jul 24, 2021 8:43 pm

A hundred years ago I used to work for SOHIO. I was pretty sure a pipeline ran from either refinery in either Lima or Toledo. The Buckeye Pipeline Map (on google) shows the spur to Columbus but doesn't specify where it ends. I believe it was put there at behest of the Defense Department due to the North American Aircraft plant at CMH and the Strategic Air Command base at Rickenbacker.

A great pdf on the distribution of jet fuel to airports is available at https://www.airlines.org/wp-content/upl ... fuel-1.pdf
 
CMHSRQ
Posts: 872
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 1:49 am

Re: RNO & US West Airports Fuel Shortages

Sun Jul 25, 2021 3:04 am

jetmatt777 wrote:
CMHSRQ wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:

Hence why my very first sentence said medium and large airports - which are the most common that commercial carriers serve. Of course Riverton, WY probably receives via truck. No one implied otherwise. It may be a fraction of total airports, but accounts for a vast majority of gallons the carriers use - by a long shot.


How many airports are directly served by pipeline in the USA? 20? 30? What % of flights are airport to airport that are pipeline fed. You’re not thinking big picture. Do airlines want to tanker in fuel to undersupplied spokes? CMH has all of the fuel trucked in, medium/large airport. Can’t get enough fuel delivered to meet demand, due to lack of drivers. It’s happening all over the country.


Are you 100% positive on CMH? Looking at their facility on Google Earth shows what appears to be a receiving pipe going straight into a receiving valve and a filter behind it. It would take darn near hourly 24/7 deliveries of 10,000 gallon tanker trucks to supply them with enough fuel. Not to mention the testing for each and every batch. That would be a logistical nightmare managing such a congo-line of fuel trucks from the receiving pipeline. Are you referring to the fueling that happens at the gates, or the fuel supplying the tank farm (which supplies the airfield either via hydrant or trucks).


CMH is supplied 100% by trucks both to the farm and into wing. There is a pipeline that supplies a fuel terminal, however it’s not at the airport. Fuel is delivered in 8000 gallon tanker trucks, on average 24 per day. 100% positive. I sell fuel in 8 midwestern states and my company sells and distributes world wide around 8 billion gallons annually.
 
jetmatt777
Posts: 4689
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:16 am

Re: RNO & US West Airports Fuel Shortages

Sun Jul 25, 2021 3:51 am

CMHSRQ wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:
CMHSRQ wrote:

How many airports are directly served by pipeline in the USA? 20? 30? What % of flights are airport to airport that are pipeline fed. You’re not thinking big picture. Do airlines want to tanker in fuel to undersupplied spokes? CMH has all of the fuel trucked in, medium/large airport. Can’t get enough fuel delivered to meet demand, due to lack of drivers. It’s happening all over the country.


Are you 100% positive on CMH? Looking at their facility on Google Earth shows what appears to be a receiving pipe going straight into a receiving valve and a filter behind it. It would take darn near hourly 24/7 deliveries of 10,000 gallon tanker trucks to supply them with enough fuel. Not to mention the testing for each and every batch. That would be a logistical nightmare managing such a congo-line of fuel trucks from the receiving pipeline. Are you referring to the fueling that happens at the gates, or the fuel supplying the tank farm (which supplies the airfield either via hydrant or trucks).


CMH is supplied 100% by trucks both to the farm and into wing. There is a pipeline that supplies a fuel terminal, however it’s not at the airport. Fuel is delivered in 8000 gallon tanker trucks, on average 24 per day. 100% positive. I sell fuel in 8 midwestern states and my company sells and distributes world wide around 8 billion gallons annually.


Wow. That is surprising! Thanks for the info. That probably has to be one of the larger airports not connected to a pipeline, at 8 million pax per year.


Plenty of smaller airports are even served by pipeline. Many mentioned in this thread. That is a pinch point on the future growth of that airport.
 
MohawkWeekend
Posts: 877
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:06 pm

Re: RNO & US West Airports Fuel Shortages

Sun Jul 25, 2021 3:58 am

It looks like 3 product lines serve Columbus - one from Lima (Husky Refinery), Canton (Marathon Refinery) and Catlettsburg, KY (Marathon Refinery). None of the lines show going to the CMH.
The City missed the boat on this. They'll never get permission today to spur one of these lines to the airport. I remember when CMH was out in the boonies. Now it is completely surrounded by development and homes. As CMH grows and the need for fuel increases it will have to be trucked from terminals which appear to be on the southwest side of the city. That's not going to be cheap.
 
travaz
Posts: 1125
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 1:03 am

Re: RNO & US West Airports Fuel Shortages

Sun Jul 25, 2021 5:02 am

When an US3 does an international flight is there a similar system? Would AA have to pre order fuel for say LHR or FRA?
 
jbs2886
Posts: 3337
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: RNO & US West Airports Fuel Shortages

Sun Jul 25, 2021 5:07 am

macsog6 wrote:
The airport authority at RNO seems to be rather short-sighted. As a frequent traveler from there, some of their decisions seem to me to be downright myopic. It begins with a massive renovation of the airport security areas, but they failed, as part of the work, to include any international capable gates, leading to the use of a portable metal building for customs and then follows on with issues like this one.


This isn’t the RNO airport authority’s fault.
 
Chriswebb775
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:37 pm

Re: RNO & US West Airports Fuel Shortages

Sun Jul 25, 2021 6:09 am

Airlines are trucking there own gas in Delta southwest ect. In to RNO and most airlines are Tankering in fuel for the return trip .
 
CALMSP
Posts: 3675
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:18 am

Re: RNO & US West Airports Fuel Shortages

Mon Jul 26, 2021 1:31 am

USAirKid wrote:
CMHSRQ wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:

Hence why my very first sentence said medium and large airports - which are the most common that commercial carriers serve. Of course Riverton, WY probably receives via truck. No one implied otherwise. It may be a fraction of total airports, but accounts for a vast majority of gallons the carriers use - by a long shot.


How many airports are directly served by pipeline in the USA? 20? 30? What % of flights are airport to airport that are pipeline fed. You’re not thinking big picture. Do airlines want to tanker in fuel to undersupplied spokes? CMH has all of the fuel trucked in, medium/large airport. Can’t get enough fuel delivered to meet demand, due to lack of drivers. It’s happening all over the country.


Due to a lack of drivers at a wage the employers are willing to pay.

I’m sure if they were willing to pay more they would find enough drivers.


yes and no, but a large amount of OTR drivers are independent contractors, not drivers who are local/city drivers.
 
gdavis003
Posts: 990
Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:59 am

Re: RNO & US West Airports Fuel Shortages

Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:00 am

Is there a fuel shortage at VPS (Destin, FL)? Looks like AA5185 to CLT and AA5510 to PHL both made planned, quick stops in MGM today on the way to their respective destinations. Doesn’t look like it was a weather/maintenance related diversion for either, as the route was straight from VPS to MGM for both
 
Tan Flyr
Posts: 1749
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2000 11:07 pm

Re: RNO & US West Airports Fuel Shortages

Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:21 pm

That would make sense..Both the Colonial and Plantation pipelines have terminals in the Birmingham area..maybe not quite the shortage of drivers to keep MGM supplies.

I'm going to guess that VPS likely supplied by truck from the Chevron refinery in Pascagoula, MS..or trucked from NOLA area refineries.
 
MohawkWeekend
Posts: 877
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:06 pm

Re: RNO & US West Airports Fuel Shortages

Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:02 pm

I find it ironic that this thread has so little debate considering the fact this story is now in the mainstream press.

As I have mentioned in other threads, supply of jet fuel will only get more difficult in the years to come. Right now there is supply but it's not where it needs to be. The cost of transporting it via truck ( anything via truck is more expensive) will begin to hit the airlines bottom line - one to get the trucks and drivers or if they begin tankering fuel. In the past, growing demand meant building a pipeline. That will not happen now or in the future. Even replacing existing lines is being met with fierce opposition. And yet most threads on ANet talk about expanding service.
 
alasizon
Posts: 3044
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: RNO & US West Airports Fuel Shortages

Tue Jul 27, 2021 7:19 pm

The issue continues to plague the West, SLC and FAT are both fuel critical in addition to the aforementioned issues at RNO.
 
MohawkWeekend
Posts: 877
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:06 pm

Re: RNO & US West Airports Fuel Shortages

Tue Jul 27, 2021 8:05 pm

In case anyone was wondering if their local airport (or city) was served by a pipeline, the US government provides that information.
https://www.eia.gov/state/?sid=UT
The above link shows the results for Utah. In the legend you can click on Pipelines and Transmission and then select which pipelines you want to see.

Even having a pipeline available, in a growing area demand may out strip the capacity of the line. For example in Utah, a product pieline runs from the refining center of Salt Lake City to St. George and then on to LAS and to Victorville, CA. It is the only pipeline to St. George which is one of the fastest growing cities in the US. Las Vegas is up there too. The demands on this line will continues to grow until electric vehicle's out number CE ones.
 
MohawkWeekend
Posts: 877
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:06 pm

Re: RNO & US West Airports Fuel Shortages

Tue Jul 27, 2021 8:40 pm

And hurricane season is just firing up. Lose a couple of refineries and lets see what happens.
Back in the early 70's the American Petroleum Institute (API) had a slogan - " A nation that runs on oil can't afford to run short" Almost 50 years later and even with EV's/solar/and wind, America is still desperately hung up on fossil fuel. And aviation is in the worst shape.

Sigh,
Retired Oil, Airline and Lake Freighter Guy
 
andrew50
Posts: 157
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 9:16 pm

Re: RNO & US West Airports Fuel Shortages

Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:44 pm

I retired this past March. I wasn’t a trucker, but worked for a utility and we had large trucks that I drove where you needed a CDL. I have had the CDL for about 40 years, with a tanker endorsement. My license was up for renewal and I decided just to downgrade to a regular class A license and drop the CDL. The 3 people I dealt with at the DMV thought I was crazy to drop the CDL even though I didn’t need it anymore. They all told me how much work was out there for CDL drivers, and how hard it was to get a CDL license. One of the people told me what if you get bored, you might want to drive a truck a couple of times a week, which I probably will not do, but who knows. They talked me into keeping it though, it was like it was something special, which I guess it is now days.
 
Tan Flyr
Posts: 1749
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2000 11:07 pm

Re: RNO & US West Airports Fuel Shortages

Wed Jul 28, 2021 12:42 am

MohawkWeekend wrote:
And hurricane season is just firing up. Lose a couple of refineries and lets see what happens.
Back in the early 70's the American Petroleum Institute (API) had a slogan - " A nation that runs on oil can't afford to run short" Almost 50 years later and even with EV's/solar/and wind, America is still desperately hung up on fossil fuel. And aviation is in the worst shape.

Sigh,
Retired Oil, Airline and Lake Freighter Guy




Yeah, I remember those ads..had the heartbeat stop as the tag line said cannot afford to run short. Those were aimed at getting the government to reverse the cap of 5.54 or so per bbl on domestic oil at the well head. it was cheaper to import 2 buck stuff from the middle east ..but someone foresaw the pitfalls of that.

And here we are 50 years later, going back to depending more on imported oil and refined products. We had independence in our grasp..and now look where we are at. Just like 1973 and 79. It will be a long time before EVs become a real factor, and the lower middle and lower economic class folks will not have any opportunity to embrace that for some time.
But, back on topic..the whole transportation industry ( inc. Airlines for sure) had better start putting pressure on the Biden administration to reverse course on all the anti-fossil fuels before it brings the economy to a real slowdown.
 
travaz
Posts: 1125
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 1:03 am

Re: RNO & US West Airports Fuel Shortages

Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:44 pm

[/quote}Yeah, I remember those ads..had the heartbeat stop as the tag line said cannot afford to run short. Those were aimed at getting the government to reverse the cap of 5.54 or so per bbl on domestic oil at the well head. it was cheaper to import 2 buck stuff from the middle east ..but someone foresaw the pitfalls of that.

And here we are 50 years later, going back to depending more on imported oil and refined products. We had independence in our grasp..and now look where we are at. Just like 1973 and 79. It will be a long time before EVs become a real factor, and the lower middle and lower economic class folks will not have any opportunity to embrace that for some time.
But, back on topic..the whole transportation industry ( inc. Airlines for sure) had better start putting pressure on the Biden administration to reverse course on all the anti-fossil fuels before it brings the economy to a real slowdown.[/quote]

The post quoted above is a fair and accurate statement. No matter what your outlook on "Green" is we have to as a nation take into account the realities of our infrastructure. While United has shown an interest in electric planes they in reality will not be practical in thier present form. I believe the range is 250 miles, that disqualifies several destinations out of PHX. How will reserves be figured? EV's are another problem if you live in the Southwest. Is a 500 mile journey to LA going to become a 2 day trip? I don't mean to spark a green debate but I think a hard and realistic look at our Jet Fuel (and fossil fuels) situation requires additional output and maybe a new refinery or two. Pipelines are also needed. The leadership in this country (and others) needs to take a non political honest look at what the realities of transportation needs are going to be in the next 2 decades. Fossil fuels will still be around.
 
DLASFlyer
Posts: 353
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 4:06 pm

Re: RNO & US West Airports Fuel Shortages

Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:10 pm

alasizon wrote:
The issue continues to plague the West, SLC and FAT are both fuel critical in addition to the aforementioned issues at RNO.


Any more details on SLC? I'm supposed to fly through there tomorrow.
 
MohawkWeekend
Posts: 877
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:06 pm

Re: RNO & US West Airports Fuel Shortages

Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:04 pm

U.S. Gasoline Demand Soars to Record on July 4 Travel Surge
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... illion-b-d

This might explain the jet shortages we are seeing. Oil Companies are using up their pipeline nominations (reserved space) to move motor fuel (MOGAS) instead of JET. Since Oil Companies are public enemy number 1, perhaps they are thinking it's better to p*** off the airlines , than the motorists who vote.
 
MohawkWeekend
Posts: 877
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:06 pm

Re: RNO & US West Airports Fuel Shortages

Wed Jul 28, 2021 11:30 pm

It shouldn't be a surprise that US gasoline demand set an all time record this July 4th . There are way more of us. Compared to the year the API came up with their slogan
US Population in 1972 209.9 million
US Population in 2020 331.0 million
US Population in 2030 *est 359.4 million

So even though our vehicles are more efficient (cars, trucks,Max 8's vs 727-200's), fuel consumption is heading up. But the folks finding it, refining it, delivering it are getting hammered. As US and European refineries are forced to close, guess who will have the most refining capacity in the future?

Why China Will be the World’s Largest Oil Refiner in 2021 https://www.reuters.com/article/sponsor ... st-refiner
 
alasizon
Posts: 3044
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: RNO & US West Airports Fuel Shortages

Thu Jul 29, 2021 2:45 am

DLASFlyer wrote:
alasizon wrote:
The issue continues to plague the West, SLC and FAT are both fuel critical in addition to the aforementioned issues at RNO.


Any more details on SLC? I'm supposed to fly through there tomorrow.


SLC has apparently improved but DEN and COS are now having issues, it's like a roulette wheel. FCA is also hurting.
 
User avatar
Spacepope
Posts: 5414
Joined: Tue Dec 28, 1999 11:10 am

Re: RNO & US West Airports Fuel Shortages

Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:17 pm

MohawkWeekend wrote:
It shouldn't be a surprise that US gasoline demand set an all time record this July 4th . There are way more of us. Compared to the year the API came up with their slogan
US Population in 1972 209.9 million
US Population in 2020 331.0 million
US Population in 2030 *est 359.4 million

So even though our vehicles are more efficient (cars, trucks,Max 8's vs 727-200's), fuel consumption is heading up. But the folks finding it, refining it, delivering it are getting hammered. As US and European refineries are forced to close, guess who will have the most refining capacity in the future?

Why China Will be the World’s Largest Oil Refiner in 2021 https://www.reuters.com/article/sponsor ... st-refiner


Yet the articles keep claiming it's NOT a refinery capacity shortage. https://www.washingtonpost.com/transpor ... -american/

It's a driver shortage, those guys the companies didn't hesitate to kick to the curb last year at the first sign of a demand drop. They've already went and got better jobs, and really who would want to come back to the job they were so unceremoniously just flushed from?

As a geologist that works out west, I can assure you the same goes for the guys and small towns they supported back in the $120/bbl days that all up and evaporated at the oil company's beancounter whims. They aren't a switch you can turn back on again, and some of those towns simply aren't coming back at all.

China's no saint, but beating the China drum on this current issue is classic dog barking up the wrong tree. So either you're misinformed on the issue or are aiming to mislead.
 
MohawkWeekend
Posts: 877
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:06 pm

Re: RNO & US West Airports Fuel Shortages

Thu Jul 29, 2021 4:13 pm

It's not just truck drivers. Quote from Delta AIrlines https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/27/business ... index.html

"At several western US airports, there's not enough jet fuel to meet the increased demand for leisure travel. That could end up causing some flights to be canceled or force airlines to make extra stops to fuel up on longer routes. Part of the problem is the shortage of tank truck drivers needed to deliver fuel. An estimated 20% of tankers nationwide are parked due to a lack of qualified drivers, according to an industry trade group. That shortage has already been affecting gas stations.

But airlines and airports are also struggling to get the fuel they need because pipelines shifted away from carrying jet fuel when air travel ground to a near halt last year. Now jet fuel isn't getting the pipeline space it needs to keep up with the recent surge in air travel.

"The Federal Energy Regulatory Commission, the pipelines, and the airlines need to work together to allow space on the pipelines to ship the needed jet fuel to the airports," said a statement from Delta Air Lines (DAL). "



I worked in downstream and logistics. My comment about the refineries is about the future. Who is going to refine all that oil you are finding if British Columbia, Washington State and California decide that refineries shouldn't exist in their State or Province? China on the other hand will be more than willing to supply us with all the refined products we want. Until they wont. Just like they do with just about everything else we used to make in North America.

Australia is already where we are heading. "Coalition urged to confront Australia's 'severe fuel insecurity' as Altona oil refinery closes" https://www.theguardian.com/australia-n ... ery-closes

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