Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
CMHSRQ wrote:It’s not just Reno, it’s everywhere out west. Refiners aren’t producing jet fuel, not enough truck drivers to deliver it. Demand skyrocketing due to airline, biz jets and massive firefighting needs.
jetmatt777 wrote:Fuel is ordered by the airlines and batched together. The airlines allocate the pre-purchased fuel to be delivered. At large airports like PDX (I worked at that fuel tank farm managing fuel deliveries) you could receive a million+ gallons at a time via pipeline. It wasn’t the airport’s fuel, it is all of the airline’s fuel. It is all batched together and paid for by them months ago when they purchased the contract. In the fuel tanks, the fuel is divided up on paper by how much the airline had delivered to us vs how much was loaded on their airplanes. It was their job to order the fuel and allocate it to the various airports they serve. Their fuel supplier handles the logistics of sending it to the different airports once they allocate it. Once it arrives at the offload terminal it is all pumped to the airport together. DL, AA, UA, WN etc. fuel is all mixed in. When that fuel is pumped into the airplane the fuel is removed from their allotment in the tank. They receive weekly reports on what they have left in their allotment.
It was probably my most favorite job in aviation because I love logistics.
hiflyeras wrote:jetmatt777 wrote:Fuel is ordered by the airlines and batched together. The airlines allocate the pre-purchased fuel to be delivered. At large airports like PDX (I worked at that fuel tank farm managing fuel deliveries) you could receive a million+ gallons at a time via pipeline. It wasn’t the airport’s fuel, it is all of the airline’s fuel. It is all batched together and paid for by them months ago when they purchased the contract. In the fuel tanks, the fuel is divided up on paper by how much the airline had delivered to us vs how much was loaded on their airplanes. It was their job to order the fuel and allocate it to the various airports they serve. Their fuel supplier handles the logistics of sending it to the different airports once they allocate it. Once it arrives at the offload terminal it is all pumped to the airport together. DL, AA, UA, WN etc. fuel is all mixed in. When that fuel is pumped into the airplane the fuel is removed from their allotment in the tank. They receive weekly reports on what they have left in their allotment.
It was probably my most favorite job in aviation because I love logistics.
This was really interesting, jetmatt! Thanks!!
floridaflyboy wrote:hiflyeras wrote:jetmatt777 wrote:Fuel is ordered by the airlines and batched together. The airlines allocate the pre-purchased fuel to be delivered. At large airports like PDX (I worked at that fuel tank farm managing fuel deliveries) you could receive a million+ gallons at a time via pipeline. It wasn’t the airport’s fuel, it is all of the airline’s fuel. It is all batched together and paid for by them months ago when they purchased the contract. In the fuel tanks, the fuel is divided up on paper by how much the airline had delivered to us vs how much was loaded on their airplanes. It was their job to order the fuel and allocate it to the various airports they serve. Their fuel supplier handles the logistics of sending it to the different airports once they allocate it. Once it arrives at the offload terminal it is all pumped to the airport together. DL, AA, UA, WN etc. fuel is all mixed in. When that fuel is pumped into the airplane the fuel is removed from their allotment in the tank. They receive weekly reports on what they have left in their allotment.
It was probably my most favorite job in aviation because I love logistics.
This was really interesting, jetmatt! Thanks!!
I second that. That's fascinating. I had no idea how that worked. Thanks.
jetmatt777 wrote:CMHSRQ wrote:It’s not just Reno, it’s everywhere out west. Refiners aren’t producing jet fuel, not enough truck drivers to deliver it. Demand skyrocketing due to airline, biz jets and massive firefighting needs.
hayzel777 wrote:Rumor has it the pipeline feeding RNO had its certifications lapse by accident, therefore cutting off the pipeline’s supply. RNO has been trucking it in for the short-term but there aren’t enough drivers. What a joke.
jetmatt777 wrote:CMHSRQ wrote:It’s not just Reno, it’s everywhere out west. Refiners aren’t producing jet fuel, not enough truck drivers to deliver it. Demand skyrocketing due to airline, biz jets and massive firefighting needs.
Pretty much every medium sized airport and larger has fuel delivered by pipeline, not truck. Usually it will go from the refinery via pipeline to an outbound rail terminal, and then every city usually has a receiving rail terminal that handles petroleum products that has a pipeline to major users of fuel such as airports and army bases. The receiving terminal will also usually have an autogas terminal that will fill tanker trucks with gasoline and diesel to supply gas stations. Driver shortages are not impacting airports receiving fuel, but they can impact hiring for fuel truck drivers on the airport but these typically are not CDL positions given that it is an off-highway job.
In a lot of areas the refinery is close enough to have a direct line from it to the airport, bypassing rail or barge.
Fuel is ordered by the airlines and batched together. The airlines allocate the pre-purchased fuel to be delivered. At large airports like PDX (I worked at that fuel tank farm managing fuel deliveries) you could receive a million+ gallons at a time via pipeline. It wasn’t the airport’s fuel, it is all of the airline’s fuel. It is all batched together and paid for by them months ago when they purchased the contract. In the fuel tanks, the fuel is divided up on paper by how much the airline had delivered to us vs how much was loaded on their airplanes. It was their job to order the fuel and allocate it to the various airports they serve. Their fuel supplier handles the logistics of sending it to the different airports once they allocate it. Once it arrives at the offload terminal it is all pumped to the airport together. DL, AA, UA, WN etc. fuel is all mixed in. When that fuel is pumped into the airplane the fuel is removed from their allotment in the tank. They receive weekly reports on what they have left in their allotment.
It was probably my most favorite job in aviation because I love logistics.
CMHSRQ wrote:jetmatt777 wrote:CMHSRQ wrote:It’s not just Reno, it’s everywhere out west. Refiners aren’t producing jet fuel, not enough truck drivers to deliver it. Demand skyrocketing due to airline, biz jets and massive firefighting needs.
Pretty much every medium sized airport and larger has fuel delivered by pipeline, not truck. Usually it will go from the refinery via pipeline to an outbound rail terminal, and then every city usually has a receiving rail terminal that handles petroleum products that has a pipeline to major users of fuel such as airports and army bases. The receiving terminal will also usually have an autogas terminal that will fill tanker trucks with gasoline and diesel to supply gas stations. Driver shortages are not impacting airports receiving fuel, but they can impact hiring for fuel truck drivers on the airport but these typically are not CDL positions given that it is an off-highway job.
In a lot of areas the refinery is close enough to have a direct line from it to the airport, bypassing rail or barge.
Fuel is ordered by the airlines and batched together. The airlines allocate the pre-purchased fuel to be delivered. At large airports like PDX (I worked at that fuel tank farm managing fuel deliveries) you could receive a million+ gallons at a time via pipeline. It wasn’t the airport’s fuel, it is all of the airline’s fuel. It is all batched together and paid for by them months ago when they purchased the contract. In the fuel tanks, the fuel is divided up on paper by how much the airline had delivered to us vs how much was loaded on their airplanes. It was their job to order the fuel and allocate it to the various airports they serve. Their fuel supplier handles the logistics of sending it to the different airports once they allocate it. Once it arrives at the offload terminal it is all pumped to the airport together. DL, AA, UA, WN etc. fuel is all mixed in. When that fuel is pumped into the airplane the fuel is removed from their allotment in the tank. They receive weekly reports on what they have left in their allotment.
It was probably my most favorite job in aviation because I love logistics.
I sell Jet A and Avgas, the vast majority of US airports are supplied by truck. Our number 1 problem right now is finding truck drivers to haul fuel. Are most large airports supplied via pipelines with consortiums, yes, but that’s just a tiny fraction of the over 5000 US airports.
alasizon wrote:It isn't just RNO though, the entire West has been having this issue. ACV, RDM, MFR, EUG, PDX, DRO, ASE and FAT have all logged fuel shortages in the past 30 days due to not receiving their scheduled deliveries (some are pipeline, some are not).
In RNO's case it sounds like the fuel consortium is rationing and cutting certain fuelers smaller pieces of the pie but not others. World Fuel supposedly caters to Swissport and Atlantic (the FBO) and reportedly got their supply cut while other fuel providers did not.
jetmatt777 wrote:CMHSRQ wrote:jetmatt777 wrote:
Pretty much every medium sized airport and larger has fuel delivered by pipeline, not truck. Usually it will go from the refinery via pipeline to an outbound rail terminal, and then every city usually has a receiving rail terminal that handles petroleum products that has a pipeline to major users of fuel such as airports and army bases. The receiving terminal will also usually have an autogas terminal that will fill tanker trucks with gasoline and diesel to supply gas stations. Driver shortages are not impacting airports receiving fuel, but they can impact hiring for fuel truck drivers on the airport but these typically are not CDL positions given that it is an off-highway job.
In a lot of areas the refinery is close enough to have a direct line from it to the airport, bypassing rail or barge.
Fuel is ordered by the airlines and batched together. The airlines allocate the pre-purchased fuel to be delivered. At large airports like PDX (I worked at that fuel tank farm managing fuel deliveries) you could receive a million+ gallons at a time via pipeline. It wasn’t the airport’s fuel, it is all of the airline’s fuel. It is all batched together and paid for by them months ago when they purchased the contract. In the fuel tanks, the fuel is divided up on paper by how much the airline had delivered to us vs how much was loaded on their airplanes. It was their job to order the fuel and allocate it to the various airports they serve. Their fuel supplier handles the logistics of sending it to the different airports once they allocate it. Once it arrives at the offload terminal it is all pumped to the airport together. DL, AA, UA, WN etc. fuel is all mixed in. When that fuel is pumped into the airplane the fuel is removed from their allotment in the tank. They receive weekly reports on what they have left in their allotment.
It was probably my most favorite job in aviation because I love logistics.
I sell Jet A and Avgas, the vast majority of US airports are supplied by truck. Our number 1 problem right now is finding truck drivers to haul fuel. Are most large airports supplied via pipelines with consortiums, yes, but that’s just a tiny fraction of the over 5000 US airports.
Hence why my very first sentence said medium and large airports - which are the most common that commercial carriers serve. Of course Riverton, WY probably receives via truck. No one implied otherwise. It may be a fraction of total airports, but accounts for a vast majority of gallons the carriers use - by a long shot.
CMHSRQ wrote:jetmatt777 wrote:CMHSRQ wrote:
I sell Jet A and Avgas, the vast majority of US airports are supplied by truck. Our number 1 problem right now is finding truck drivers to haul fuel. Are most large airports supplied via pipelines with consortiums, yes, but that’s just a tiny fraction of the over 5000 US airports.
Hence why my very first sentence said medium and large airports - which are the most common that commercial carriers serve. Of course Riverton, WY probably receives via truck. No one implied otherwise. It may be a fraction of total airports, but accounts for a vast majority of gallons the carriers use - by a long shot.
How many airports are directly served by pipeline in the USA? 20? 30? What % of flights are airport to airport that are pipeline fed. You’re not thinking big picture. Do airlines want to tanker in fuel to undersupplied spokes? CMH has all of the fuel trucked in, medium/large airport. Can’t get enough fuel delivered to meet demand, due to lack of drivers. It’s happening all over the country.
CMHSRQ wrote:How many airports are directly served by pipeline in the USA? 20? 30? What % of flights are airport to airport that are pipeline fed.
ADent wrote:COS had fuel issues a week or so ago. viewtopic.php?t=1462669
freakyrat wrote:ADent wrote:COS had fuel issues a week or so ago. viewtopic.php?t=1462669
This is why an American Eagle flight from DFW-SBN was 4 or more hours chronically late for 3 consecutive days a week ago. The aircraft used for the flight originated in Colorado Springs.
CMHSRQ wrote:jetmatt777 wrote:CMHSRQ wrote:
I sell Jet A and Avgas, the vast majority of US airports are supplied by truck. Our number 1 problem right now is finding truck drivers to haul fuel. Are most large airports supplied via pipelines with consortiums, yes, but that’s just a tiny fraction of the over 5000 US airports.
Hence why my very first sentence said medium and large airports - which are the most common that commercial carriers serve. Of course Riverton, WY probably receives via truck. No one implied otherwise. It may be a fraction of total airports, but accounts for a vast majority of gallons the carriers use - by a long shot.
How many airports are directly served by pipeline in the USA? 20? 30? What % of flights are airport to airport that are pipeline fed. You’re not thinking big picture. Do airlines want to tanker in fuel to undersupplied spokes? CMH has all of the fuel trucked in, medium/large airport. Can’t get enough fuel delivered to meet demand, due to lack of drivers. It’s happening all over the country.
jetmatt777 wrote:CMHSRQ wrote:jetmatt777 wrote:
Hence why my very first sentence said medium and large airports - which are the most common that commercial carriers serve. Of course Riverton, WY probably receives via truck. No one implied otherwise. It may be a fraction of total airports, but accounts for a vast majority of gallons the carriers use - by a long shot.
How many airports are directly served by pipeline in the USA? 20? 30? What % of flights are airport to airport that are pipeline fed. You’re not thinking big picture. Do airlines want to tanker in fuel to undersupplied spokes? CMH has all of the fuel trucked in, medium/large airport. Can’t get enough fuel delivered to meet demand, due to lack of drivers. It’s happening all over the country.
Are you 100% positive on CMH? Looking at their facility on Google Earth shows what appears to be a receiving pipe going straight into a receiving valve and a filter behind it. It would take darn near hourly 24/7 deliveries of 10,000 gallon tanker trucks to supply them with enough fuel. Not to mention the testing for each and every batch. That would be a logistical nightmare managing such a congo-line of fuel trucks from the receiving pipeline. Are you referring to the fueling that happens at the gates, or the fuel supplying the tank farm (which supplies the airfield either via hydrant or trucks).
CMHSRQ wrote:jetmatt777 wrote:CMHSRQ wrote:
How many airports are directly served by pipeline in the USA? 20? 30? What % of flights are airport to airport that are pipeline fed. You’re not thinking big picture. Do airlines want to tanker in fuel to undersupplied spokes? CMH has all of the fuel trucked in, medium/large airport. Can’t get enough fuel delivered to meet demand, due to lack of drivers. It’s happening all over the country.
Are you 100% positive on CMH? Looking at their facility on Google Earth shows what appears to be a receiving pipe going straight into a receiving valve and a filter behind it. It would take darn near hourly 24/7 deliveries of 10,000 gallon tanker trucks to supply them with enough fuel. Not to mention the testing for each and every batch. That would be a logistical nightmare managing such a congo-line of fuel trucks from the receiving pipeline. Are you referring to the fueling that happens at the gates, or the fuel supplying the tank farm (which supplies the airfield either via hydrant or trucks).
CMH is supplied 100% by trucks both to the farm and into wing. There is a pipeline that supplies a fuel terminal, however it’s not at the airport. Fuel is delivered in 8000 gallon tanker trucks, on average 24 per day. 100% positive. I sell fuel in 8 midwestern states and my company sells and distributes world wide around 8 billion gallons annually.
macsog6 wrote:The airport authority at RNO seems to be rather short-sighted. As a frequent traveler from there, some of their decisions seem to me to be downright myopic. It begins with a massive renovation of the airport security areas, but they failed, as part of the work, to include any international capable gates, leading to the use of a portable metal building for customs and then follows on with issues like this one.
USAirKid wrote:CMHSRQ wrote:jetmatt777 wrote:
Hence why my very first sentence said medium and large airports - which are the most common that commercial carriers serve. Of course Riverton, WY probably receives via truck. No one implied otherwise. It may be a fraction of total airports, but accounts for a vast majority of gallons the carriers use - by a long shot.
How many airports are directly served by pipeline in the USA? 20? 30? What % of flights are airport to airport that are pipeline fed. You’re not thinking big picture. Do airlines want to tanker in fuel to undersupplied spokes? CMH has all of the fuel trucked in, medium/large airport. Can’t get enough fuel delivered to meet demand, due to lack of drivers. It’s happening all over the country.
Due to a lack of drivers at a wage the employers are willing to pay.
I’m sure if they were willing to pay more they would find enough drivers.
MohawkWeekend wrote:And hurricane season is just firing up. Lose a couple of refineries and lets see what happens.
Back in the early 70's the American Petroleum Institute (API) had a slogan - " A nation that runs on oil can't afford to run short" Almost 50 years later and even with EV's/solar/and wind, America is still desperately hung up on fossil fuel. And aviation is in the worst shape.
Sigh,
Retired Oil, Airline and Lake Freighter Guy
alasizon wrote:The issue continues to plague the West, SLC and FAT are both fuel critical in addition to the aforementioned issues at RNO.
DLASFlyer wrote:alasizon wrote:The issue continues to plague the West, SLC and FAT are both fuel critical in addition to the aforementioned issues at RNO.
Any more details on SLC? I'm supposed to fly through there tomorrow.
MohawkWeekend wrote:It shouldn't be a surprise that US gasoline demand set an all time record this July 4th . There are way more of us. Compared to the year the API came up with their slogan
US Population in 1972 209.9 million
US Population in 2020 331.0 million
US Population in 2030 *est 359.4 million
So even though our vehicles are more efficient (cars, trucks,Max 8's vs 727-200's), fuel consumption is heading up. But the folks finding it, refining it, delivering it are getting hammered. As US and European refineries are forced to close, guess who will have the most refining capacity in the future?
Why China Will be the World’s Largest Oil Refiner in 2021 https://www.reuters.com/article/sponsor ... st-refiner