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cybergus
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Al Baker’s (Qatar's CEO) wants to grow Oneworld Alliance

Fri Jul 23, 2021 6:50 pm

In an interview, the CEO of Qatar Airways expressed his intention to bring more members to the Oneworld alliance in order to make it number one. This comes a few months after he was appointed as the chairman of Oneworld.

The question is, which airlines could be brought to Oneworld? Is an alliance reliable and valuable in these times? With the void left in S.America by LATAM, who could be a potential replacement? GOL?

The full article is here: https://onemileatatime.com/news/oneworl ... ce-growth/

Cheers!
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Miami
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Re: Al Baker’s (Qatar's CEO) wants to grow Oneworld Alliance

Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:14 pm

I think GOL will be the next followed by Aer Lingus.

Porter would a nice add on. Maybe WestJet.

Underdog picks for me would JetBlue, Hawaiian, EL AL, and any East Asian carrier.
Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible. - Eddie Rickenbacker
 
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OzarkD9S
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Re: Al Baker’s (Qatar's CEO) wants to grow Oneworld Alliance

Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:38 pm

Much like Akbar Al Baker's ego, bigger isn't always better.
"My soul is in the sky". -Pyramus- A Midsummer Night's Dream
 
Lootess
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Re: Al Baker’s (Qatar's CEO) wants to grow Oneworld Alliance

Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:43 pm

I don't see how GOL could be likely with AAB in the OW head chair, along with Qatar's 20% investment in LATAM. You realize he hosted the LATAM board meeting in Doha and expanded their agreement right after they left OW.
 
visual8L
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Re: Al Baker’s (Qatar's CEO) wants to grow Oneworld Alliance

Fri Jul 23, 2021 8:01 pm

What until his next hissy fit? And then AAB will want fewer members? Mouthy drop kick poodle.
‘Agree to disagree’ is generally suggested by the person who insists on remaining the asshole.
 
rg787
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Re: Al Baker’s (Qatar's CEO) wants to grow Oneworld Alliance

Fri Jul 23, 2021 8:05 pm

Lootess wrote:
I don't see how GOL could be likely with AAB in the OW head chair, along with Qatar's 20% investment in LATAM. You realize he hosted the LATAM board meeting in Doha and expanded their agreement right after they left OW.


Not only that, but Gol still has a partnership with AF/KL and they are from Skyteam. After years being also aligned with DL, I don't see G3 joining any alliance. If they would, it would already have happened.
 
usflyer msp
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Re: Al Baker’s (Qatar's CEO) wants to grow Oneworld Alliance

Fri Jul 23, 2021 8:08 pm

Lootess wrote:
I don't see how GOL could be likely with AAB in the OW head chair, along with Qatar's 20% investment in LATAM. You realize he hosted the LATAM board meeting in Doha and expanded their agreement right after they left OW.


It is not that big of a deal. JL and AY have partnerships with SU despite S7 being in OW and QF has a whole JV with EK despite QR being in OW.

OW doesn't really need that much expansion.

They need Central/Eastern European, South American, African, Indian and Chinese carriers..
 
onwFan
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Re: Al Baker’s (Qatar's CEO) wants to grow Oneworld Alliance

Fri Jul 23, 2021 8:47 pm

Some likely available candidates are:-
1. Aer Lingus (oneworld connect)
2. Philippine Airlines
3. China Southern
4. RwandAir (given QR’s ownership)
5. Vueling (oneworld connect)

On the Latin American front, I see one of either Copa or Avianca leaving Star in the near future to form a partnership with AA, paving the way into oneworld. And that will be just Upper South America. Unless LA joins SkyTeam, Latin America, and especially Brazil will be a big hole for all three alliances.

I wonder if QR would think about forging a partnership with LO or JU and bring them into oneworld - they could both do with some love.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Al Baker’s (Qatar's CEO) wants to grow Oneworld Alliance

Fri Jul 23, 2021 8:49 pm

Remember less than two years ago all of the arguments put forward that alliances were obsolete, and equity tie-ups were the way to go? How many $ Billions have been written down from equity stakes? From Delta alone it's more than $3 Billion, off the top of my head.
 
BangersAndMash
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Re: Al Baker’s (Qatar's CEO) wants to grow Oneworld Alliance

Fri Jul 23, 2021 8:51 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
OW doesn't really need that much expansion.

They need Central/Eastern European, South American, African, Indian and Chinese carriers..


AMEN!

Oneworld should only sign up new members if they make sense though. There's no point taking on just anyone because they happen to be in a region you want to serve. They did that with Air Berlin and it was the wrong move. Added absolutely nothing to the alliance.

Central Europe? LOT or Air Serbia or nothing
Africa? Nothing, although Rwandair would be handy (Comair, RAM, and QR itself offer good overall coverage)
South America? Latam just needs to see the error of its ways, or nothing
India? Vistara or nothing
China? Juneyao might be the best solution if they can pry them away from Star (the JV with AY is encouraging)

Starlux would be nice. Just because their product looks incredible. They're not really needed though.

Aer Lingus will not join. Not as a full member anyway. They are for Oneworld Connect, if at all. Porter would be good for that too. And Bangkok Airways, if they can be tempted.
 
Delta28L
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Re: Al Baker’s (Qatar's CEO) wants to grow Oneworld Alliance

Fri Jul 23, 2021 8:52 pm

Miami wrote:
I think GOL will be the next followed by Aer Lingus.

Porter would a nice add on. Maybe WestJet.

Underdog picks for me would JetBlue, Hawaiian, EL AL, and any East Asian carrier.


GOL would most likely go Skyteam since AF/KL have investments in them.
WestJet would also lean Skyteam since DL is close with them.
JetBlue and Aer Lingus would be most likely since they have close partnerships with current members. Aer Lingus would be coming back since they left a couple of years. China Southern would be a good fit since Cathay is dropping in value
 
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ElroyJetson
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Re: Al Baker’s (Qatar's CEO) wants to grow Oneworld Alliance

Fri Jul 23, 2021 8:59 pm

Aer Lingus makes the most sense as One World could use Dublin as a lower yield connecting hub and leave the crowded LHR as a more high yield O&D and connecting hub. However, Aer Lingus seems very reluctant to be a full One World Partner.

If anyone is in the know regarding what Aer Lingus might do it would be appreciated.
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: Al Baker’s (Qatar's CEO) wants to grow Oneworld Alliance

Fri Jul 23, 2021 9:18 pm

Aer Lingus or Vueling joining Oneworld would be a minor event - it's not as if IAG is going to let EI or VY do anything that favours Star or Skyteam

Rwanda Air are tiny.. their joining would add very little benefit to Oneworld. The costs of joining Oneworld even as a regional carrier are high - not sure the payoff is worth it to either RwandaAir or existing OW airlines
 
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Miami
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Re: Al Baker’s (Qatar's CEO) wants to grow Oneworld Alliance

Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:34 pm

China Southern would be a nice add on.

Wasn't there rumors of Korean Air leaving SkyTeam after they became partners with AA and DL got pissed off?
Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible. - Eddie Rickenbacker
 
Delta28L
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Re: Al Baker’s (Qatar's CEO) wants to grow Oneworld Alliance

Sat Jul 24, 2021 12:10 am

Miami wrote:
China Southern would be a nice add on.

Wasn't there rumors of Korean Air leaving SkyTeam after they became partners with AA and DL got pissed off?


I believe that was China southern who did that. Korean Air and Delta are too close.
 
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stl07
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Re: Al Baker’s (Qatar's CEO) wants to grow Oneworld Alliance

Sat Jul 24, 2021 12:21 am

Echoing the previous statements here, only a few airlines, such as Vistara, really even make sense
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Insertnamehere
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Re: Al Baker’s (Qatar's CEO) wants to grow Oneworld Alliance

Sat Jul 24, 2021 12:51 am

stl07 wrote:
Echoing the previous statements here, only a few airlines, such as Vistara, really even make sense


Vistara I doubt would ever join oneworld given the Singapore airlines ownership (49%).
 
Lootess
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Re: Al Baker’s (Qatar's CEO) wants to grow Oneworld Alliance

Sat Jul 24, 2021 5:22 am

Ed Bastian was always responsible for the DL-KE relationship when he was President. As CEO they broke bread again and made the JV happen with Chairman Cho before he ultimately had to step down cause of a certain scandal. While KE does still codeshare with AS on some routes, now it's mainly ones that DL does not have at SEA. They started that relationship during the DL spat but that's no big deal. They were upset when Delta was courting JAL. Alliances might have been swapped if that deal actually went through, despite being a founding member of Skyteam.

LATAM still has agreements with most OW airlines, despite Delta's and Qatar's financial investments. Like despite being tied up with DL, they have no relationship with VS and still codeshare with IB/BA.
 
FromCDGtoSYD
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Re: Al Baker’s (Qatar's CEO) wants to grow Oneworld Alliance

Sat Jul 24, 2021 5:45 am

Lootess wrote:
Ed Bastian was always responsible for the DL-KE relationship when he was President. As CEO they broke bread again and made the JV happen with Chairman Cho before he ultimately had to step down cause of a certain scandal. While KE does still codeshare with AS on some routes, now it's mainly ones that DL does not have at SEA. They started that relationship during the DL spat but that's no big deal. They were upset when Delta was courting JAL. Alliances might have been swapped if that deal actually went through, despite being a founding member of Skyteam.


Also Delta putting its weight behind Cho Jr. when KE was going through their internal power struggle. If anything, the two are very comfortable with eachother now. DL was happen enough to shift their MNL flight to ICN (covid changed those plans though) and KE got to keep their partnerships with AS and AA due to the DOT ruling regarding the JV. Besides the AA partnership is only for flights between ICN and DFW I believe.
 
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cirrusdragoon
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Re: Al Baker’s (Qatar's CEO) wants to grow Oneworld Alliance

Sat Jul 24, 2021 6:27 am

Porter Airlines . I could very well see them cozying up further with Qatar Airways.
 
jeffrey1970
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Re: Al Baker’s (Qatar's CEO) wants to grow Oneworld Alliance

Sat Jul 24, 2021 7:52 am

Why wouldn't an African carrier be considered?
 
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centrair
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Re: Al Baker’s (Qatar's CEO) wants to grow Oneworld Alliance

Sat Jul 24, 2021 8:06 am

FromCDGtoSYD wrote:
Lootess wrote:
Ed Bastian was always responsible for the DL-KE relationship when he was President. As CEO they broke bread again and made the JV happen with Chairman Cho before he ultimately had to step down cause of a certain scandal. While KE does still codeshare with AS on some routes, now it's mainly ones that DL does not have at SEA. They started that relationship during the DL spat but that's no big deal. They were upset when Delta was courting JAL. Alliances might have been swapped if that deal actually went through, despite being a founding member of Skyteam.


Also Delta putting its weight behind Cho Jr. when KE was going through their internal power struggle. If anything, the two are very comfortable with eachother now. DL was happen enough to shift their MNL flight to ICN (covid changed those plans though) and KE got to keep their partnerships with AS and AA due to the DOT ruling regarding the JV. Besides the AA partnership is only for flights between ICN and DFW I believe.


Delta's Korea offices are in the KAL HQ and before COVID-19, were aiming to put more marketing effort into the connectivity between DL and KL at ICN; "1 stop to all of Asia" kind of deal. They are super tight. But, even though they are both Skyteam, I think Delta and KAL see the JV as more valuable.

If Al Baker want's to grow OneWorld, maybe he should find value to customers and partners first.
My name is Centrair but HND is closer. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
BangersAndMash
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Re: Al Baker’s (Qatar's CEO) wants to grow Oneworld Alliance

Sat Jul 24, 2021 8:14 am

Insertnamehere wrote:
stl07 wrote:
Echoing the previous statements here, only a few airlines, such as Vistara, really even make sense


Vistara I doubt would ever join oneworld given the Singapore airlines ownership (49%).


People really need to move on from that one. SQ had a 49% shareholding in VS for years before it was sold to DL. It never joined Star. SQ also had a major stake in VA, together with NZ. That never joined Star either. If anything, they were rumoured to be interested in Skyteam.

SQ does not give a monkey about Star. SQ does first and foremost what's good for SQ. Which is why they partner with AS over the head of UA. Which is why UK codeshares with as many Oneworld members as it does with Star members. If SQ decides (and the Tatas, let's not forget the Tatas, because they're the ones actually calling the shots) that Oneworld provides more upsides than Star, then Oneworld it will be.

What's far more important in terms of where UK will end up is whether or not the Tatas are successful with Air India's privatisation process. If they win, they'll likely want to merge the 2 airlines. That would likely stay in Star. But even that is not a given. Check out Jet Airways and JetLite/Air Sahara. That merger was in legal limbo for 6 years, so we're definitely not there yet.
 
Obzerva
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Re: Al Baker’s (Qatar's CEO) wants to grow Oneworld Alliance

Sat Jul 24, 2021 9:07 am

LOT is an obvious one, but the problems are numerous if they were to try and do it:

Their frequent flyer scheme is LH's Miles and More - they would need to start a new program and build up a base from scratch.
Lufthansa would aggressively target them, every part of the LH Group would be thrown at LO and probably not just Polish routes, but deny expansion opportunities in BUD too
and that's before you start to talk about the cost of change.
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: Al Baker’s (Qatar's CEO) wants to grow Oneworld Alliance

Sat Jul 24, 2021 10:03 am

jeffrey1970 wrote:
Why wouldn't an African carrier be considered?


There aren't a lot of airlines in Africa which are big enough to be worth joining an alliance, financially stable and not already aligned. Perhaps Tunisair could join Skyteam / Star (RAM won't want them in Oneworld), but I'm struggling to think of many other alliance candidates. Maybe Arik Air in a few years time might be worth a look
 
chonetsao
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Re: Al Baker’s (Qatar's CEO) wants to grow Oneworld Alliance

Sat Jul 24, 2021 10:20 am

Since this the CEO of Qatar makes the statement. Hence it is better to look at who is Qatar's codeshare partners yet to be an oneworld member:
1, Air Botswana
2, Air Canada
3, Asiana
4, Azerbaijan Airlines
5, Bangkok Airways
6, China Southern Airlines
7, Comair
8, GOL
9, IndiGo
10, JetBlue
11, Lao Airlines
12, LATAM
13, MEA
14, Vueling
15, Oman Air

However, among above lists, there were star alliance members which would be highly unlikely to leave, like Air Canada, and airlines that is in the process of being merged, like Asiana. Plus there are small airlines that does not benefits from being a member, like Lao Airlines.

Then we look at airlines that Qatar Airways Privilege members can earn miles on:
1, Bangkok Airways
2, MEA
3, LATAM
4, RwandaAir

Based on above information, I handpicked a few airlines that are likely to be the candidate and also listed the desirable candidates;
Possible Candidates:
1, Bangkok Airways (oneworld connect): already have extensive agreements with several oneworld member. However, whether it can survive the pandemic is a question.
2, Comair: if SAA can not survive, Comair is the perfect candidate to grow in Africa. However, Comair operates flights for BA in South Africa hence many flights are oneworld flights automatically.
3, Oman Air: Oman Air has extensive codeshare on Qatar Airways operated services. To compete with other airlines in Gulf in its own size, that including Etihad, Gulf, Kuwait and ambitious Saudi, Oman Air may see alliance membership desirable to gain access to the pool of flyers. Oman Air is an ally to Qatar Airways in the gulf region.

Desirable Candidates:
1, China Southern: for the obvious reasons
2, GOL:
3, IndiGo (possible oneworld connect member, not full membership): oneworld needs India, China and Brazil.
4, LATAM: I don't think LATAM would do a U-turn. But stranger things have happened before. I don't see it happening but it is a desirable list hence it is in.

I don't see the dear QR leader can really do much about his ambitions. None of the airlines are in any rush to commit to alliance membership as survival is the uttermost task. If there is any surprise the dear QR leader may have in his pocket for us, I would say China Southern or Aegean would be a surprising trick if he can achieve it. I just don't see any other airlines that is not already cooperate with QR would be friendly with the dear QR leader.
 
BangersAndMash
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Re: Al Baker’s (Qatar's CEO) wants to grow Oneworld Alliance

Sat Jul 24, 2021 10:35 am

Obzerva wrote:
LOT is an obvious one, but the problems are numerous if they were to try and do it:

Their frequent flyer scheme is LH's Miles and More - they would need to start a new program and build up a base from scratch.
Lufthansa would aggressively target them, every part of the LH Group would be thrown at LO and probably not just Polish routes, but deny expansion opportunities in BUD too and that's before you start to talk about the cost of change.


You hit that nail right on the head.

Star (well LH) has been treating LO very badly. LH is already eating LO's lunch on many regional Polish routes, to be honest. They're blocking LO from joining intercontinental JVs, they've even torpedoed codeshare agreements (like with NH). And their membership of Miles & More is giving LH even more leverage over them. Star membership is actually probably against LO's best interest at this point.

But until LO management wakes up and does something about it, sadly not much will happen. Another problem is the Polish government. I would have thought IAG would be interested in a purchase. And that would neatly take care of alliance exit fees. But I don't see the current administration be onboard for that.
 
BangersAndMash
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Re: Al Baker’s (Qatar's CEO) wants to grow Oneworld Alliance

Sat Jul 24, 2021 10:40 am

chonetsao wrote:
Since this the CEO of Qatar makes the statement. Hence it is better to look at who is Qatar's codeshare partners yet to be an oneworld member:
1, Air Botswana
2, Air Canada
3, Asiana
4, Azerbaijan Airlines
5, Bangkok Airways
6, China Southern Airlines
7, Comair
8, GOL
9, IndiGo
10, JetBlue
11, Lao Airlines
12, LATAM
13, MEA
14, Vueling
15, Oman Air

However, among above lists, there were star alliance members which would be highly unlikely to leave, like Air Canada, and airlines that is in the process of being merged, like Asiana. Plus there are small airlines that does not benefits from being a member, like Lao Airlines.

Then we look at airlines that Qatar Airways Privilege members can earn miles on:
1, Bangkok Airways
2, MEA
3, LATAM
4, RwandaAir

Based on above information, I handpicked a few airlines that are likely to be the candidate and also listed the desirable candidates;
Possible Candidates:
1, Bangkok Airways (oneworld connect): already have extensive agreements with several oneworld member. However, whether it can survive the pandemic is a question.
2, Comair: if SAA can not survive, Comair is the perfect candidate to grow in Africa. However, Comair operates flights for BA in South Africa hence many flights are oneworld flights automatically.
3, Oman Air: Oman Air has extensive codeshare on Qatar Airways operated services. To compete with other airlines in Gulf in its own size, that including Etihad, Gulf, Kuwait and ambitious Saudi, Oman Air may see alliance membership desirable to gain access to the pool of flyers. Oman Air is an ally to Qatar Airways in the gulf region.

Desirable Candidates:
1, China Southern: for the obvious reasons
2, GOL:
3, IndiGo (possible oneworld connect member, not full membership): oneworld needs India, China and Brazil.
4, LATAM: I don't think LATAM would do a U-turn. But stranger things have happened before. I don't see it happening but it is a desirable list hence it is in.

I don't see the dear QR leader can really do much about his ambitions. None of the airlines are in any rush to commit to alliance membership as survival is the uttermost task. If there is any surprise the dear QR leader may have in his pocket for us, I would say China Southern or Aegean would be a surprising trick if he can achieve it. I just don't see any other airlines that is not already cooperate with QR would be friendly with the dear QR leader.


Comair is already a Oneworld associate member. You can tick that one off your list. ;)
 
chonetsao
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Re: Al Baker’s (Qatar's CEO) wants to grow Oneworld Alliance

Sat Jul 24, 2021 11:01 am

BangersAndMash wrote:
Comair is already a Oneworld associate member. You can tick that one off your list. ;)


I think you misunderstood Comair. Comair is not an oneworld member. It operates oneworld flights on behalf of BA on a franchisee agreement (of which I made a point in my original post). There is a big difference between being a member and being on contract to operate some flights for an actual member. Comair also owns kulula, which is not a member of anything. Comair is like Mesa, Republic and SkyWest in USA. They operates flights on behalf of American Airlines and such flights are oneworld flights. Yet these airlines are not oneworld members.
 
NZ321
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Re: Al Baker’s (Qatar's CEO) wants to grow Oneworld Alliance

Sat Jul 24, 2021 11:02 am

Bangkok Airways, Vistara & JetBlue would be a great addition in terms of quality niche brands at OneWorld. Philippine Airlines is an interesting one, given the Philippines being direct neighbours with Malaysia. However, Malaysia Airlines lacks any trans Pacific between Asia and North America whatsoever; they currently push this business via Cathay and JAL. So it's not an entirely silly idea, even alongside a play for China Southern. And what about Starlux?
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Obzerva
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Re: Al Baker’s (Qatar's CEO) wants to grow Oneworld Alliance

Sat Jul 24, 2021 11:30 am

In terms of raw potential numbers, just for a different perspective.
Of the top 15 most populated countries, Oneworld has a domestic presence in 3 of those, positions 8, 9 & 10.

China and India are the 2 most obvious markets to try and tap in to, if HNA group were in a solvent position, they could have been a good addition.

Otherwise, as others have mentioned above, Bangkok Airways would be a good niche add, If they’re looking for another European that’s potentially available. Air Serbia or possibly Air Baltic.

Not sure how much value looking too small would be, but SkyTeam has OK and I think they’re down to about 2 aircraft at the moment!
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: Al Baker’s (Qatar's CEO) wants to grow Oneworld Alliance

Sat Jul 24, 2021 11:39 am

When OK joined Skyteam, they were a much larger airline. They remain in Skyteam only because it's difficult/awkward to throw them out. Neither an airline nor an alliance would want the hassle and costs involved for a 2 aircraft airline to join

If an airline has less than about 25 active aircraft, there needs to be a very good reason for it to join an alliance. I am dubious as to whether Air Serbia could really make much of an impact on OneWorld
 
a350lover
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Re: Al Baker’s (Qatar's CEO) wants to grow Oneworld Alliance

Sat Jul 24, 2021 12:25 pm

How different is being a "full member" of OneWorld (i.e Qatar itself) vs something like OneWorld connect like Vueling or Aer Lingus?

Excuse my ignorance..;)
 
onwFan
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Re: Al Baker’s (Qatar's CEO) wants to grow Oneworld Alliance

Sat Jul 24, 2021 12:32 pm

Obzerva wrote:
China and India are the 2 most obvious markets to try and tap in to, if HNA group were in a solvent position, they could have been a good addition.

If they add a member in China, it will obviously be CZ and not HU. The HU idea was only because both CZ and MU ended up in SkyTeam. CZ’s last major link to SkyTeam was the AF/KL JV and that is also ending this year.
 
BangersAndMash
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Re: Al Baker’s (Qatar's CEO) wants to grow Oneworld Alliance

Sat Jul 24, 2021 12:45 pm

a350lover wrote:
How different is being a "full member" of OneWorld (i.e Qatar itself) vs something like OneWorld connect like Vueling or Aer Lingus?

Excuse my ignorance..;)


Associate members provide full Oneworld benefits on their flights (priority boarding, lounge access, mileage earn and burn, ...) but are represented by a full member in alliance dealings. They have no say in how the alliance is run.

They're generally either subsidiaries (Iberia Express, Nordic Regional Airlines, Royal Air Maroc Express, ...) or franchisees (Comair, the American Eagle carriers, ...) of a full member.

Vueling and Aer Lingus have strictly speaking no dealings with the alliance at all. They just happen to be owned by IAG, owners of full members British Airways and Iberia (although Aer Lingus is now part of the Oneworld Transatlantic JV).

I hope this clears things up a bit :)
 
RDRogel
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Re: Al Baker’s (Qatar's CEO) wants to grow Oneworld Alliance

Sat Jul 24, 2021 12:51 pm

NZ321 wrote:
Bangkok Airways, Vistara & JetBlue would be a great addition in terms of quality niche brands at OneWorld. Philippine Airlines is an interesting one, given the Philippines being direct neighbours with Malaysia. However, Malaysia Airlines lacks any trans Pacific between Asia and North America whatsoever; they currently push this business via Cathay and JAL. So it's not an entirely silly idea, even alongside a play for China Southern. And what about Starlux?


If PR joins Oneworld, each alliance will have at least 2 ASEAN carriers - Sky has GA & VN, Star has SQ & TG, while MH is an orphan in Oneworld. The major obstacle to join the alliance is Star member ANA(All Nippon Airways) has a stake in PAL. ANA has considered to lure the carrier into Star - the important headache is one of the them(either SQ or TG has to leave to join the other alliance). More likely SQ will join Oneworld since TG(Thai) is one of the Star's founders.
Last edited by RDRogel on Sat Jul 24, 2021 12:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
RDRogel
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Re: Al Baker’s (Qatar's CEO) wants to grow Oneworld Alliance

Sat Jul 24, 2021 12:54 pm

Aerolineas Argentinas is another posiblility to join Oneworld. Since former OW member LATAM has a JV with Delta(Skyteam), AR has to leave Skyteam if LATAM will formally join the alliance..
 
BangersAndMash
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Re: Al Baker’s (Qatar's CEO) wants to grow Oneworld Alliance

Sat Jul 24, 2021 12:59 pm

chonetsao wrote:
BangersAndMash wrote:
Comair is already a Oneworld associate member. You can tick that one off your list. ;)


I think you misunderstood Comair. Comair is not an oneworld member. It operates oneworld flights on behalf of BA on a franchisee agreement (of which I made a point in my original post). There is a big difference between being a member and being on contract to operate some flights for an actual member. Comair also owns kulula, which is not a member of anything. Comair is like Mesa, Republic and SkyWest in USA. They operates flights on behalf of American Airlines and such flights are oneworld flights. Yet these airlines are not oneworld members.


You are clearly not familiar with Oneworld membership distinctions.

Comair is an associate member of Oneworld. It offers all the benefits of Oneworld membership on its BA franchise operation. BA acts as its representative on the alliance decision-making bodies. US regionals are also Oneworld associate members for their American Eagle branded flights, with AA acting as their representatives. And there are several other carriers in that tier as well. The fact that they lack decision-making power does not make them any less part of Oneworld.

The BA and AA entries on the Oneworld site will confirm. Just scroll to the bottom.

https://www.oneworld.com/members/british-airways

https://www.oneworld.com/members/american-airlines
 
RDRogel
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2020 11:33 am

Re: Al Baker’s (Qatar's CEO) wants to grow Oneworld Alliance

Sat Jul 24, 2021 1:02 pm

onwFan wrote:
Some likely available candidates are:-
1. Aer Lingus (oneworld connect)
2. Philippine Airlines
3. China Southern
4. RwandAir (given QR’s ownership)
5. Vueling (oneworld connect)

On the Latin American front, I see one of either Copa or Avianca leaving Star in the near future to form a partnership with AA, paving the way into oneworld. And that will be just Upper South America. Unless LA joins SkyTeam, Latin America, and especially Brazil will be a big hole for all three alliances.

I wonder if QR would think about forging a partnership with LO or JU and bring them into oneworld - they could both do with some love.


If PR joins Oneworld, each alliance will have at least 2 ASEAN carriers - Sky has GA & VN, Star has SQ & TG, while MH is an orphan in Oneworld. The major obstacle to join the alliance is Star member ANA(All Nippon Airways) has a stake in PAL. ANA has considered to lure the carrier into Star - the important headache is one of the them(either SQ or TG has to leave to join the other alliance). More likely SQ will join Oneworld since TG(Thai) is one of the Star's founders. Or ANA has to sell the PAL's stake to OW member JL(Japan Airlines) - ANA's competitor.

Aerolineas Argentinas is another posiblility to join Oneworld. Since former OW member LATAM has a JV with Delta(Skyteam), AR has to leave Skyteam if LATAM will formally join the alliance..
 
BangersAndMash
Posts: 227
Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2021 5:21 pm

Re: Al Baker’s (Qatar's CEO) wants to grow Oneworld Alliance

Sat Jul 24, 2021 1:12 pm

RDRogel wrote:
If PR joins Oneworld, each alliance will have at least 2 ASEAN carriers - Sky has GA & VN, Star has SQ & TG, while MH is an orphan in Oneworld. The major obstacle to join the alliance is Star member ANA(All Nippon Airways) has a stake in PAL. ANA has considered to lure the carrier into Star - the important headache is one of the them(either SQ or TG has to leave to join the other alliance). More likely SQ will join Oneworld since TG(Thai) is one of the Star's founders. Or ANA has to sell the PAL's stake to OW member JL(Japan Airlines) - ANA's competitor.


ANA's stake in PAL is less than 10%, no enough to influence decision-making. It certainly didn't stop PAL from seeking an AA codeshare when looking to launch US flights pre-pandemic.
 
chonetsao
Posts: 960
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2005 3:55 pm

Re: Al Baker’s (Qatar's CEO) wants to grow Oneworld Alliance

Sat Jul 24, 2021 2:00 pm

BangersAndMash wrote:
chonetsao wrote:
BangersAndMash wrote:
Comair is already a Oneworld associate member. You can tick that one off your list. ;)


I think you misunderstood Comair. Comair is not an oneworld member. It operates oneworld flights on behalf of BA on a franchisee agreement (of which I made a point in my original post). There is a big difference between being a member and being on contract to operate some flights for an actual member. Comair also owns kulula, which is not a member of anything. Comair is like Mesa, Republic and SkyWest in USA. They operates flights on behalf of American Airlines and such flights are oneworld flights. Yet these airlines are not oneworld members.


You are clearly not familiar with Oneworld membership distinctions.

Comair is an associate member of Oneworld. It offers all the benefits of Oneworld membership on its BA franchise operation. BA acts as its representative on the alliance decision-making bodies. US regionals are also Oneworld associate members for their American Eagle branded flights, with AA acting as their representatives. And there are several other carriers in that tier as well. The fact that they lack decision-making power does not make them any less part of Oneworld.

The BA and AA entries on the Oneworld site will confirm. Just scroll to the bottom.

https://www.oneworld.com/members/british-airways

https://www.oneworld.com/members/american-airlines


For oneworld, its membership potion is either a full membership option, or oneworld connect option. There is no oneworld affiliate membership option or associate membership option.

If you read your webpage you referred, Comair is listed as BA's franchisee, the exact words are:
Affiliate airlines.
Near or far, these British Airways affiliates will help you reach your next destination.


Please tell me where in the wording it said Comair is in a 'oneworld affiliate/associate membership' with oneworld? It is an affiliate airliner of BA and operate BA coded oneworld flight within Africa under contract.

So is with AA, the description for the three airlines I mentioned as below:
These include three subsidiaries of the American Airlines Group (Envoy Air Inc., Piedmont Airlines Inc., PSA Airlines Inc.) and four other contracted carriers (Mesa, Republic and SkyWest


Affiliate airlines does not mean or guarantee they are a member. It only means they are affiliate to a member airline by either a franchise agreement (the case of Comair and SUN-AIR), a contract (the case of MESA, Republic and SkyWest) or ownership (the case of Iberia Express and former Cathay Dragon). oneworld's own website refer Comair as a 'affiliate airline' rather than 'affiliate membership' is the perfect indication to tell you the difference between 'membership' and 'non-membership'. When you are a member, you get to vote in alliance matters and showing up in promotional materials. When you are a contracted airline, you are an outsider.

I don't understand why we are even discussing this matter. This is really that simple. On oneworld webpage, there is a full dedicated page for 'members', and Comair is not in there.
 
User avatar
Antaras
Posts: 1335
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:18 am

Re: Al Baker’s (Qatar's CEO) wants to grow Oneworld Alliance

Sat Jul 24, 2021 2:10 pm

BangersAndMash wrote:
RDRogel wrote:
If PR joins Oneworld, each alliance will have at least 2 ASEAN carriers - Sky has GA & VN, Star has SQ & TG, while MH is an orphan in Oneworld. The major obstacle to join the alliance is Star member ANA(All Nippon Airways) has a stake in PAL. ANA has considered to lure the carrier into Star - the important headache is one of the them(either SQ or TG has to leave to join the other alliance). More likely SQ will join Oneworld since TG(Thai) is one of the Star's founders. Or ANA has to sell the PAL's stake to OW member JL(Japan Airlines) - ANA's competitor.


ANA's stake in PAL is less than 10%, no enough to influence decision-making. It certainly didn't stop PAL from seeking an AA codeshare when looking to launch US flights pre-pandemic.

Not to forget that ANA also has similar stakes in VN which is fully a SkyTeam member.
If you disagree with my statement, assume that it was just a joke :duck:
 
Lootess
Posts: 692
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 6:15 am

Re: Al Baker’s (Qatar's CEO) wants to grow Oneworld Alliance

Sat Jul 24, 2021 2:33 pm

centrair wrote:
FromCDGtoSYD wrote:
Lootess wrote:
Ed Bastian was always responsible for the DL-KE relationship when he was President. As CEO they broke bread again and made the JV happen with Chairman Cho before he ultimately had to step down cause of a certain scandal. While KE does still codeshare with AS on some routes, now it's mainly ones that DL does not have at SEA. They started that relationship during the DL spat but that's no big deal. They were upset when Delta was courting JAL. Alliances might have been swapped if that deal actually went through, despite being a founding member of Skyteam.


Also Delta putting its weight behind Cho Jr. when KE was going through their internal power struggle. If anything, the two are very comfortable with eachother now. DL was happen enough to shift their MNL flight to ICN (covid changed those plans though) and KE got to keep their partnerships with AS and AA due to the DOT ruling regarding the JV. Besides the AA partnership is only for flights between ICN and DFW I believe.


Delta's Korea offices are in the KAL HQ and before COVID-19, were aiming to put more marketing effort into the connectivity between DL and KL at ICN; "1 stop to all of Asia" kind of deal. They are super tight. But, even though they are both Skyteam, I think Delta and KAL see the JV as more valuable.

If Al Baker want's to grow OneWorld, maybe he should find value to customers and partners first.


Delta is also pretty tight with JVs from a personnel front. Which include global talent exchange programs sending respective employees across companies to share business practices, growth, and promotional opportunities. So it's even more closer and complicated than an alliance deal.

China Southern is probably the most ripe airline for OW if they really want to join an alliance again, they weren't very close with Delta or really anyone in Skyteam but I guess that's the stuff that happens when you have more than mainland China airline in the same alliance with some overlap, compared to AS and AA which compliment each other.
 
BangersAndMash
Posts: 227
Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2021 5:21 pm

Re: Al Baker’s (Qatar's CEO) wants to grow Oneworld Alliance

Sat Jul 24, 2021 2:43 pm

chonetsao wrote:
BangersAndMash wrote:
chonetsao wrote:

I think you misunderstood Comair. Comair is not an oneworld member. It operates oneworld flights on behalf of BA on a franchisee agreement (of which I made a point in my original post). There is a big difference between being a member and being on contract to operate some flights for an actual member. Comair also owns kulula, which is not a member of anything. Comair is like Mesa, Republic and SkyWest in USA. They operates flights on behalf of American Airlines and such flights are oneworld flights. Yet these airlines are not oneworld members.


You are clearly not familiar with Oneworld membership distinctions.

Comair is an associate member of Oneworld. It offers all the benefits of Oneworld membership on its BA franchise operation. BA acts as its representative on the alliance decision-making bodies. US regionals are also Oneworld associate members for their American Eagle branded flights, with AA acting as their representatives. And there are several other carriers in that tier as well. The fact that they lack decision-making power does not make them any less part of Oneworld.

The BA and AA entries on the Oneworld site will confirm. Just scroll to the bottom.

https://www.oneworld.com/members/british-airways

https://www.oneworld.com/members/american-airlines


For oneworld, its membership potion is either a full membership option, or oneworld connect option. There is no oneworld affiliate membership option or associate membership option.

If you read your webpage you referred, Comair is listed as BA's franchisee, the exact words are:
Affiliate airlines.
Near or far, these British Airways affiliates will help you reach your next destination.


Please tell me where in the wording it said Comair is in a 'oneworld affiliate/associate membership' with oneworld? It is an affiliate airliner of BA and operate BA coded oneworld flight within Africa under contract.

So is with AA, the description for the three airlines I mentioned as below:
These include three subsidiaries of the American Airlines Group (Envoy Air Inc., Piedmont Airlines Inc., PSA Airlines Inc.) and four other contracted carriers (Mesa, Republic and SkyWest


Affiliate airlines does not mean or guarantee they are a member. It only means they are affiliate to a member airline by either a franchise agreement (the case of Comair and SUN-AIR), a contract (the case of MESA, Republic and SkyWest) or ownership (the case of Iberia Express and former Cathay Dragon). oneworld's own website refer Comair as a 'affiliate airline' rather than 'affiliate membership' is the perfect indication to tell you the difference between 'membership' and 'non-membership'. When you are a member, you get to vote in alliance matters and showing up in promotional materials. When you are a contracted airline, you are an outsider.

I don't understand why we are even discussing this matter. This is really that simple. On oneworld webpage, there is a full dedicated page for 'members', and Comair is not in there.


Yes, it's that simple. You are wrong. Reread your quotes. None of them invalidates what I said. Affiliates are part of Oneworld. Unfortunately, the old Oneworld website was a lot better at spelling it out.

See the wording from the AA page: "For regional flights in the USA, Canada, the Caribbean and Mexico, American Eagle, which is also part of oneworld as an American Airlines affiliate, has you covered."

I've been a Oneworld frequent flyer for years, I should know.

EDIT: this is the one I was actually looking for
"oneworld also has more than 20 “affiliate members” - airlines closely linked to the alliance’s full members and which offer the full range of oneworld services and benefits"
https://www.oneworld.com/news/2020-05-04-oneworld-20-facts
Last edited by BangersAndMash on Sat Jul 24, 2021 2:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
RDRogel
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2020 11:33 am

Re: Al Baker’s (Qatar's CEO) wants to grow Oneworld Alliance

Sat Jul 24, 2021 2:45 pm

Lootess wrote:
centrair wrote:
FromCDGtoSYD wrote:

Also Delta putting its weight behind Cho Jr. when KE was going through their internal power struggle. If anything, the two are very comfortable with eachother now. DL was happen enough to shift their MNL flight to ICN (covid changed those plans though) and KE got to keep their partnerships with AS and AA due to the DOT ruling regarding the JV. Besides the AA partnership is only for flights between ICN and DFW I believe.


Delta's Korea offices are in the KAL HQ and before COVID-19, were aiming to put more marketing effort into the connectivity between DL and KL at ICN; "1 stop to all of Asia" kind of deal. They are super tight. But, even though they are both Skyteam, I think Delta and KAL see the JV as more valuable.

If Al Baker want's to grow OneWorld, maybe he should find value to customers and partners first.


Delta is also pretty tight with JVs from a personnel front. Which include global talent exchange programs sending respective employees across companies to share business practices, growth, and promotional opportunities. So it's even more closer and complicated than an alliance deal.

China Southern is probably the most ripe airline for OW if they really want to join an alliance again, they weren't very close with Delta or really anyone in Skyteam but I guess that's the stuff that happens when you have more than mainland China airline in the same alliance with some overlap, compared to AS and AA which compliment each other.


Nice for CZ but CX has a 30% stake in CA(Air China - a Star Alliance Member). It will be a 50/50 chance...
 
chonetsao
Posts: 960
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2005 3:55 pm

Re: Al Baker’s (Qatar's CEO) wants to grow Oneworld Alliance

Sat Jul 24, 2021 3:13 pm

BangersAndMash wrote:
chonetsao wrote:
BangersAndMash wrote:

You are clearly not familiar with Oneworld membership distinctions.

Comair is an associate member of Oneworld. It offers all the benefits of Oneworld membership on its BA franchise operation. BA acts as its representative on the alliance decision-making bodies. US regionals are also Oneworld associate members for their American Eagle branded flights, with AA acting as their representatives. And there are several other carriers in that tier as well. The fact that they lack decision-making power does not make them any less part of Oneworld.

The BA and AA entries on the Oneworld site will confirm. Just scroll to the bottom.

https://www.oneworld.com/members/british-airways

https://www.oneworld.com/members/american-airlines


For oneworld, its membership potion is either a full membership option, or oneworld connect option. There is no oneworld affiliate membership option or associate membership option.

If you read your webpage you referred, Comair is listed as BA's franchisee, the exact words are:
Affiliate airlines.
Near or far, these British Airways affiliates will help you reach your next destination.


Please tell me where in the wording it said Comair is in a 'oneworld affiliate/associate membership' with oneworld? It is an affiliate airliner of BA and operate BA coded oneworld flight within Africa under contract.

So is with AA, the description for the three airlines I mentioned as below:
These include three subsidiaries of the American Airlines Group (Envoy Air Inc., Piedmont Airlines Inc., PSA Airlines Inc.) and four other contracted carriers (Mesa, Republic and SkyWest


Affiliate airlines does not mean or guarantee they are a member. It only means they are affiliate to a member airline by either a franchise agreement (the case of Comair and SUN-AIR), a contract (the case of MESA, Republic and SkyWest) or ownership (the case of Iberia Express and former Cathay Dragon). oneworld's own website refer Comair as a 'affiliate airline' rather than 'affiliate membership' is the perfect indication to tell you the difference between 'membership' and 'non-membership'. When you are a member, you get to vote in alliance matters and showing up in promotional materials. When you are a contracted airline, you are an outsider.

I don't understand why we are even discussing this matter. This is really that simple. On oneworld webpage, there is a full dedicated page for 'members', and Comair is not in there.


Yes, it's that simple. You are wrong. Reread your quotes. None of them invalidates what I said. Affiliates are part of Oneworld. Unfortunately, the old Oneworld website was a lot better at spelling it out.

See the wording from the AA page: "For regional flights in the USA, Canada, the Caribbean and Mexico, American Eagle, which is also part of oneworld as an American Airlines affiliate, has you covered."

I've been a Oneworld frequent flyer for years, I should know.

EDIT: this is the one I was actually looking for
"oneworld also has more than 20 “affiliate members” - airlines closely linked to the alliance’s full members and which offer the full range of oneworld services and benefits"
https://www.oneworld.com/news/2020-05-04-oneworld-20-facts


First, American Eagle is a wholly owned subsidiary, that is a member of oneworld as parenting company. Just as Iberia Express and former Cathay Dragon. Like I explained, American Eagle flights operated by MESA, Republic and SkyWest are oneworld flights, but the operating airlines are not member of oneworld.

Second, the article you quoted was from February 2020. Do you notice how oneworld put a quotation mark '' saying 20 'affiliate members' rather than directly saying 20 affiliate members?

You might be a frequent flyer, many of us are and more of us here worked or works for an airline. It is really your problem if you can not distinguish a member airline and an affiliate airline. Sorry to say that but it is true.

Please just go to https://www.oneworld.com/members
If an airline is not on that page, they are not a participate member airline. (wholly owned subsidiary excluded)

Also please refer to Comair's own website:
https://www.comair.co.za/

You can notice Comair website does not have oneworld logo. Instead, it lists British Airways down below among its brands. Comair itself owns kulula and a franchise operation in South Africa on behalf of British Airways. It could claim to be a member (as some marketing description actually did) through British Airways franchise agreement, but they are not an oneworld full member airlines nor oneworld connect member airlines! There is a big difference. What Al Baker said clearly meant to be either a full membership or a connect membership.

Also before we go any further please notice Comair is not even an IATA member:
https://www.iata.org/en/programs/ops-in ... r-ltd/288/

So it can not be an oneworld member airline on its own merit as it does not have a IATA fare system access unless BA operate on its behalf.
 
RDRogel
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2020 11:33 am

Re: Al Baker’s (Qatar's CEO) wants to grow Oneworld Alliance

Sat Jul 24, 2021 3:22 pm

NZ321 wrote:
Bangkok Airways, Vistara & JetBlue would be a great addition in terms of quality niche brands at OneWorld. Philippine Airlines is an interesting one, given the Philippines being direct neighbours with Malaysia. However, Malaysia Airlines lacks any trans Pacific between Asia and North America whatsoever; they currently push this business via Cathay and JAL. So it's not an entirely silly idea, even alongside a play for China Southern. And what about Starlux?


For many years, some OW carriers have been lurking PAL to join Oneworld. Malaysia Airlines is getting weak because of two major disasters back-to-back - MH 370 & MH 17. It also loses cash very rapidly while PAL is back on the track to become a 4-star airline... If the pandemic doesn't happen.

Also PAL has a good history on cooperating with some of OW carriers - Cathay temporary takes over PAL's domestic services during the temporary shutdown in 1998, JAL leases a PAL plane to serve its first international destination after WW2. And lastly AA plans to codeshare with PAL just before the pandemic had started.
 
User avatar
ElroyJetson
Posts: 996
Joined: Fri May 26, 2017 5:04 am

Re: Al Baker’s (Qatar's CEO) wants to grow Oneworld Alliance

Sat Jul 24, 2021 3:30 pm

It seems alliances are no longer as big a deal. The trend seems to be JV's which makes sense to me if the capital exists. I think the DL KE JV is a case in point. I could be wrong, but the talk of alliance benefits seems to be waning.
 
ahj2000
Posts: 1326
Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2014 5:34 pm

Re: Al Baker’s (Qatar's CEO) wants to grow Oneworld Alliance

Sat Jul 24, 2021 6:48 pm

RDRogel wrote:
NZ321 wrote:
Bangkok Airways, Vistara & JetBlue would be a great addition in terms of quality niche brands at OneWorld. Philippine Airlines is an interesting one, given the Philippines being direct neighbours with Malaysia. However, Malaysia Airlines lacks any trans Pacific between Asia and North America whatsoever; they currently push this business via Cathay and JAL. So it's not an entirely silly idea, even alongside a play for China Southern. And what about Starlux?


For many years, some OW carriers have been lurking PAL to join Oneworld. Malaysia Airlines is getting weak because of two major disasters back-to-back - MH 370 & MH 17. It also loses cash very rapidly while PAL is back on the track to become a 4-star airline... If the pandemic doesn't happen.

Also PAL has a good history on cooperating with some of OW carriers - Cathay temporary takes over PAL's domestic services during the temporary shutdown in 1998, JAL leases a PAL plane to serve its first international destination after WW2. And lastly AA plans to codeshare with PAL just before the pandemic had started.

Did that codeshare get called off? I always thought that PAL should be the next to join OW, even before AS was announced.
-Andrés Juánez
 
BangersAndMash
Posts: 227
Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2021 5:21 pm

Re: Al Baker’s (Qatar's CEO) wants to grow Oneworld Alliance

Sat Jul 24, 2021 6:57 pm

ahj2000 wrote:
RDRogel wrote:
NZ321 wrote:
Bangkok Airways, Vistara & JetBlue would be a great addition in terms of quality niche brands at OneWorld. Philippine Airlines is an interesting one, given the Philippines being direct neighbours with Malaysia. However, Malaysia Airlines lacks any trans Pacific between Asia and North America whatsoever; they currently push this business via Cathay and JAL. So it's not an entirely silly idea, even alongside a play for China Southern. And what about Starlux?


For many years, some OW carriers have been lurking PAL to join Oneworld. Malaysia Airlines is getting weak because of two major disasters back-to-back - MH 370 & MH 17. It also loses cash very rapidly while PAL is back on the track to become a 4-star airline... If the pandemic doesn't happen.

Also PAL has a good history on cooperating with some of OW carriers - Cathay temporary takes over PAL's domestic services during the temporary shutdown in 1998, JAL leases a PAL plane to serve its first international destination after WW2. And lastly AA plans to codeshare with PAL just before the pandemic had started.

Did that codeshare get called off? I always thought that PAL should be the next to join OW, even before AS was announced.


It's in regulatory limbo. UA objected on the ground that they can't get slots at MNL while PAL is launching new flights to the US. USDOT has pretty much frozen the approval process. And with the pandemic, of course, nobody's in a hurry anymore.

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