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N292UX
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Re: Al Baker’s (Qatar's CEO) wants to grow Oneworld Alliance

Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:02 am

-China Southern to help cover China/East Asia
-Air Serbia or Ukraine International for Eastern Europe (probably Air Serbia)
-GOL for Brazil/South America

Royal Air Maroc seems to have Africa covered at the moment. If OW needs another African carrier, I guess I'd say either RwandAir or Air Tanzania.

I don't see much more of a need outside of that
 
blooc350
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Re: Al Baker’s (Qatar's CEO) wants to grow Oneworld Alliance

Sun Jul 25, 2021 5:03 am

stl07 wrote:
Echoing the previous statements here, only a few airlines, such as Vistara, really even make sense



Over SQ’s dead body lol
 
BangersAndMash
Posts: 341
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Re: Al Baker’s (Qatar's CEO) wants to grow Oneworld Alliance

Sun Jul 25, 2021 7:13 am

blooc350 wrote:
stl07 wrote:
Echoing the previous statements here, only a few airlines, such as Vistara, really even make sense


Over SQ’s dead body lol


You clearly don't know SQ very well. You should read post #23 LOL
 
smi0006
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Re: Al Baker’s (Qatar's CEO) wants to grow Oneworld Alliance

Sun Jul 25, 2021 7:14 am

Delta28L wrote:
Miami wrote:
China Southern would be a nice add on.

Wasn't there rumors of Korean Air leaving SkyTeam after they became partners with AA and DL got pissed off?


I believe that was China southern who did that. Korean Air and Delta are too close.


Don’t QF have a JV with China Southern too? Or in fairness they also have one with China Eastern too, having both in Skyteam seems a bit much.

China and India are big holes for OW. Isn’t Vistara part owned by SQ? Can’t see them heading for one world.

I think now isn’t the time to add new carriers - maybe 3-5 years when the industry is stable and carriers are back in the black and confident of their long term future and strategy.
 
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eastafspot
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Re: Al Baker’s (Qatar's CEO) wants to grow Oneworld Alliance

Sun Jul 25, 2021 7:33 am

N292UX wrote:
If OW needs another African carrier, I guess I'd say either RwandAir or Air Tanzania.

I don't see much more of a need outside of that

Agree for RwandAIr, as Air Tanzania currently offers only 6 destinations outside Tanzania ( Bujumbura, Comoros, Entebbe, Harare, Lusaka, Mumbai).
 
RDRogel
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Re: Al Baker’s (Qatar's CEO) wants to grow Oneworld Alliance

Sun Jul 25, 2021 9:07 am

N292UX wrote:
-China Southern to help cover China/East Asia
-Air Serbia or Ukraine International for Eastern Europe (probably Air Serbia)
-GOL for Brazil/South America

Royal Air Maroc seems to have Africa covered at the moment. If OW needs another African carrier, I guess I'd say either RwandAir or Air Tanzania.

I don't see much more of a need outside of that


Philippine Airlines to have 2nd ASEAN Airline & accompany the struggling Malaysia Airlines
 
Toinou
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Re: Al Baker’s (Qatar's CEO) wants to grow Oneworld Alliance

Sun Jul 25, 2021 9:08 am

N292UX wrote:
Royal Air Maroc seems to have Africa covered at the moment. If OW needs another African carrier, I guess I'd say either RwandAir or Air Tanzania.

RAM covers very well the connecting market but it's not in the best place for intra-African links. I know it's a small market (comparing to others) but it's also a place with big growth opportunities in medium-term.
 
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eurotrader85
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Re: Al Baker’s (Qatar's CEO) wants to grow Oneworld Alliance

Sun Jul 25, 2021 10:02 am

chonetsao wrote:
BangersAndMash wrote:
chonetsao wrote:

For oneworld, its membership potion is either a full membership option, or oneworld connect option. There is no oneworld affiliate membership option or associate membership option.

If you read your webpage you referred, Comair is listed as BA's franchisee, the exact words are:


Please tell me where in the wording it said Comair is in a 'oneworld affiliate/associate membership' with oneworld? It is an affiliate airliner of BA and operate BA coded oneworld flight within Africa under contract.

So is with AA, the description for the three airlines I mentioned as below:


Affiliate airlines does not mean or guarantee they are a member. It only means they are affiliate to a member airline by either a franchise agreement (the case of Comair and SUN-AIR), a contract (the case of MESA, Republic and SkyWest) or ownership (the case of Iberia Express and former Cathay Dragon). oneworld's own website refer Comair as a 'affiliate airline' rather than 'affiliate membership' is the perfect indication to tell you the difference between 'membership' and 'non-membership'. When you are a member, you get to vote in alliance matters and showing up in promotional materials. When you are a contracted airline, you are an outsider.

I don't understand why we are even discussing this matter. This is really that simple. On oneworld webpage, there is a full dedicated page for 'members', and Comair is not in there.


Yes, it's that simple. You are wrong. Reread your quotes. None of them invalidates what I said. Affiliates are part of Oneworld. Unfortunately, the old Oneworld website was a lot better at spelling it out.

See the wording from the AA page: "For regional flights in the USA, Canada, the Caribbean and Mexico, American Eagle, which is also part of oneworld as an American Airlines affiliate, has you covered."

I've been a Oneworld frequent flyer for years, I should know.

EDIT: this is the one I was actually looking for
"oneworld also has more than 20 “affiliate members” - airlines closely linked to the alliance’s full members and which offer the full range of oneworld services and benefits"
https://www.oneworld.com/news/2020-05-04-oneworld-20-facts


First, American Eagle is a wholly owned subsidiary, that is a member of oneworld as parenting company. Just as Iberia Express and former Cathay Dragon. Like I explained, American Eagle flights operated by MESA, Republic and SkyWest are oneworld flights, but the operating airlines are not member of oneworld.

Second, the article you quoted was from February 2020. Do you notice how oneworld put a quotation mark '' saying 20 'affiliate members' rather than directly saying 20 affiliate members?

You might be a frequent flyer, many of us are and more of us here worked or works for an airline. It is really your problem if you can not distinguish a member airline and an affiliate airline. Sorry to say that but it is true.

Please just go to https://www.oneworld.com/members
If an airline is not on that page, they are not a participate member airline. (wholly owned subsidiary excluded)

Also please refer to Comair's own website:
https://www.comair.co.za/

You can notice Comair website does not have oneworld logo. Instead, it lists British Airways down below among its brands. Comair itself owns kulula and a franchise operation in South Africa on behalf of British Airways. It could claim to be a member (as some marketing description actually did) through British Airways franchise agreement, but they are not an oneworld full member airlines nor oneworld connect member airlines! There is a big difference. What Al Baker said clearly meant to be either a full membership or a connect membership.

Also before we go any further please notice Comair is not even an IATA member:
https://www.iata.org/en/programs/ops-in ... r-ltd/288/

So it can not be an oneworld member airline on its own merit as it does not have a IATA fare system access unless BA operate on its behalf.


Comair is an affiliate for Oneworld when operating under the British Airways banner, which if anyone has flown them knows, that is how you will fly them on your OW connection or even point to point, with all the usual OW trimmings of tier points, service, and miles, hell-even the planes are in BA colours. UNLESS you are separately using their LCC airline Kahula.com, which being a LCC has no need or place in OW.

The OW website is clear, life and experience are clear, and even Wikipedia is clear. Affiliates are a part of OW.

https://www.oneworld.com/members/british-airways
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oneworld

What you are trying to say Chonetsao, is the airline ‘company’ is not part of Oneworld, as the BA affiliate is under a franchise agreement. You are making an argument that the ‘company’ should become OW. On a corporate technicality, you can make an argument, however, I don’t think this is what AAB really means, and there would be no difference to OW customers if that became the case after all that heartache and expense of restructuring so what is the point? There is obviously no desire for Kahula.com to join OW and the present affiliate structure works well for all the parties concerned giving customers what is basically a bit of British Airways on the Cape of Good Hope.


As others have said on this feed, this statement from AAB all sounds wonderful, and everything he says of course needs to be taken with a sack of salt, but who out there is left of any substance? Maybe RewandAir on a connect basis and one of LATAM or Avianca if can be persuaded to return/poached if restructures itself, QR dumps its LATAM stake. After that, you just run into understandable politics between members. Is CX really going to allow CZ to grow out a hub on its doorstep? Unlikely. Let’s also remember it wasn’t so long ago was AAB threatening to leave the alliance five minutes after joining. QR, and fair enough, slams those operating a LCC concept within its partner's sphere, and while the OW is the smallest of the three, it has always considered itself the highest quality-hence kicking out Aer Lingus before when it moved to its budget carrier model. AAB of course publicly slammed BA for becoming a near budget carrier in the deterioration of its service. Sure, people will pick off the service at one or two of the members but overall, across the group the median bar is arguably the highest. I can’t see AAB wanting to flood it with members who don’t have the same business model or even being able to from a political perspective. Bigger is not necessarily better.

However, if we go on the notion, it is not the size but what you do with it that counts, then deeper integration and schedule planning between present members like MH for instance would definitely help from a customer perspective. I believe Rob Gurney made this comment before.
 
davidjohnson6
Posts: 1668
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Re: Al Baker’s (Qatar's CEO) wants to grow Oneworld Alliance

Sun Jul 25, 2021 10:17 am

Cathay Pacific has one hub in Hong Kong. China Southern has multiple hubs across China
20 years ago, CZ was a fraction of the size of CX
Given a choice, I imagine Oneworld airlines would (privately) happily sacrifice the loss of CX if they could gain CZ as an alliance partner

Air travel is a mass market activity in much of the world... size in this case does matter... or Oneworld faces loss of relevancy in what will soon become the world's largest economy
 
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ClassicLover
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Re: Al Baker’s (Qatar's CEO) wants to grow Oneworld Alliance

Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:40 pm

eurotrader85 wrote:
and while the OW is the smallest of the three, it has always considered itself the highest quality-hence kicking out Aer Lingus before when it moved to its budget carrier model.


Sorry, but this is completely wrong. Aer Lingus had already transitioned their model and were remaining in oneworld.

They left because they didn't want to spend the money integrating their systems with the three new airlines joining on 1 April 2007, which were Japan Airlines, Malev and Royal Jordanian. Aer Lingus use their own bespoke (and very old) reservations system called ASTRAL and the costs to integrate the new airlines, especially JAL, were thought to be not worth it, so they left. There's more on ASTRAL here - https://travelupdate.com/aer-lingus-reservations-computer/

Aer Lingus certainly weren't kicked out. It's regrettable that they left, but they decided to do it - they were not pushed out.
 
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vhtje
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Re: Al Baker’s (Qatar's CEO) wants to grow Oneworld Alliance

Mon Jul 26, 2021 7:17 am

ElroyJetson wrote:
It seems alliances are no longer as big a deal. The trend seems to be JV's which makes sense to me if the capital exists. I think the DL KE JV is a case in point. I could be wrong, but the talk of alliance benefits seems to be waning.


For airlines, as a business, yes. JVs are the way to go.

For passengers, perhaps not so much.
 
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EightyFour
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Re: Al Baker’s (Qatar's CEO) wants to grow Oneworld Alliance

Mon Jul 26, 2021 9:15 am

I would love for LOT to get out from underneath the LH boot. QR and OW might be the best (only?) chance for that currently.
 
MEA-707
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Re: Al Baker’s (Qatar's CEO) wants to grow Oneworld Alliance

Mon Jul 26, 2021 2:58 pm

America's
Then a few things they should look at: WestJet (probably heading towards Skyteam). If they can't get them, they might look at Porter or Flair to dip a toe in Canada again. JetBlue, they work with AA so they might be a done deal? Maybe they should try to get either COPA or Avianca, with Latam already heading towards Skyteam it should be good to have another proper Latin network carrier. If that doesn't work out, get GOL. Given that you also hardly get any service in Economy on flights below around 4 hours on BA, IB, AA I can't see why they should be hesitant to look at LCCs. In which case the growing Mexican airlines like Volaris van Viva Aerobus might also be interesting.
Africa
With Kenya Airways trying to distance itself from KLM/AF they might want to jump ship, I think they are well located to connect central and east Africa with the rest of the world.
Asia
If the Hainan group gets their act together I could totally see them in OneWorld. And otherwise if China Southern doesn't want to join another look at the other top 10 Chinese airlines. Shandong, Sichuan, Shenzhen, Juneyao all have more than 100 aircraft. I like the suggestion of PAL and if that doesn't work, why not Cebu Pacific, Bamboo Airways or VietJet. If (full service) Vistara doesn't want to (or SQ doesn't let them), why not look at huge IndiGo instead.
Europe
Also there is a blank spot in the middle of Europe, perhaps if ITA, the new version of Alitalia, gets a cold shoulder from Skyteam, they might be welcomed into OneWorld, similar with LOT, too many Star Alliance carriers already in that region.
 
BangersAndMash
Posts: 341
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Re: Al Baker’s (Qatar's CEO) wants to grow Oneworld Alliance

Mon Jul 26, 2021 5:27 pm

^ Thankfully pretty much none of this is going to happen
 
dstblj52
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Re: Al Baker’s (Qatar's CEO) wants to grow Oneworld Alliance

Thu Jul 29, 2021 4:39 am

BangersAndMash wrote:
a350lover wrote:
How different is being a "full member" of OneWorld (i.e Qatar itself) vs something like OneWorld connect like Vueling or Aer Lingus?

Excuse my ignorance..;)


Associate members provide full Oneworld benefits on their flights (priority boarding, lounge access, mileage earn and burn, ...) but are represented by a full member in alliance dealings. They have no say in how the alliance is run.

They're generally either subsidiaries (Iberia Express, Nordic Regional Airlines, Royal Air Maroc Express, ...) or franchisees (Comair, the American Eagle carriers, ...) of a full member.

Vueling and Aer Lingus have strictly speaking no dealings with the alliance at all. They just happen to be owned by IAG, owners of full members British Airways and Iberia (although Aer Lingus is now part of the Oneworld Transatlantic JV).

I hope this clears things up a bit :)

American eagle carriers are not technically franchisees their more like acmi carriers
 
BangersAndMash
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Re: Al Baker’s (Qatar's CEO) wants to grow Oneworld Alliance

Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:47 am

dstblj52 wrote:
BangersAndMash wrote:
a350lover wrote:
How different is being a "full member" of OneWorld (i.e Qatar itself) vs something like OneWorld connect like Vueling or Aer Lingus?

Excuse my ignorance..;)


Associate members provide full Oneworld benefits on their flights (priority boarding, lounge access, mileage earn and burn, ...) but are represented by a full member in alliance dealings. They have no say in how the alliance is run.

They're generally either subsidiaries (Iberia Express, Nordic Regional Airlines, Royal Air Maroc Express, ...) or franchisees (Comair, the American Eagle carriers, ...) of a full member.

Vueling and Aer Lingus have strictly speaking no dealings with the alliance at all. They just happen to be owned by IAG, owners of full members British Airways and Iberia (although Aer Lingus is now part of the Oneworld Transatlantic JV).

I hope this clears things up a bit :)

American eagle carriers are not technically franchisees their more like acmi carriers


Actually, it's a bit more complex than that. US regionals operate under capacity purchase agreements, aircraft, some of which they own outright (equivalent to an ACMI wet lease), some of which they don't (that model isn't ACMI). And they do so in full AA branding, which ACMI carriers typically don't do.

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