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TropicalSky
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Unconfirmed: Delta & WestJet to reapply for transborder JV

Fri Jul 23, 2021 8:52 pm

An article in FLIGHTGLOBAL appears to suggest that the 2 companies plan to give it a go again to gain approval on more favorable terms. Last application was approved but require 8 slot pairs be auctioned off within 8wks of the final ruling & agreement. article behind a wall but i provided a link
https://www.flightglobal.com/strategy/w ... 41.article
Last edited by SQ22 on Sat Jul 24, 2021 5:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Title updated
 
kavok
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Re: UNCONFIRMED:DELTA & WESTJET to reapply for TRANSBORDER JV

Sat Jul 24, 2021 1:13 am

I suspect the argument will be along the lines of: “The DOT now allows B6/AA to effectively coordinate with minimal concessions, but yet the proposed WS/DL JV was forced into significant concessions for approval… please reconsider.”
 
rbavfan
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Re: UNCONFIRMED:DELTA & WESTJET to reapply for TRANSBORDER JV

Sat Jul 24, 2021 2:04 am

kavok wrote:
I suspect the argument will be along the lines of: “The DOT now allows B6/AA to effectively coordinate with minimal concessions, but yet the proposed WS/DL JV was forced into significant concessions for approval… please reconsider.”


B6 and AA can code share but they do not have the ability to do what a AT-JV can. They cannot share metal or work together on setting fares.
 
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bluefltspecial
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Re: UNCONFIRMED:DELTA & WESTJET to reapply for TRANSBORDER JV

Sat Jul 24, 2021 2:09 am

Wasn't the issue last time that Delta would have to give up slots at LGA? I'm assuming that would still be the case, no?
 
jbs2886
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Re: UNCONFIRMED:DELTA & WESTJET to reapply for TRANSBORDER JV

Sat Jul 24, 2021 2:18 am

bluefltspecial wrote:
Wasn't the issue last time that Delta would have to give up slots at LGA? I'm assuming that would still be the case, no?


I wonder how the AA/B6 deal impacts this now, I suspect it will play a major role in the new application.
 
jbs2886
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Re: UNCONFIRMED:DELTA & WESTJET to reapply for TRANSBORDER JV

Sat Jul 24, 2021 2:20 am

rbavfan wrote:
kavok wrote:
I suspect the argument will be along the lines of: “The DOT now allows B6/AA to effectively coordinate with minimal concessions, but yet the proposed WS/DL JV was forced into significant concessions for approval… please reconsider.”


B6 and AA can code share but they do not have the ability to do what a AT-JV can. They cannot share metal or work together on setting fares.


It’s not about that though, it’s about AA/B6 are demonstrating significant ability to coordinate and compete against others in NYC, that lessens the potential concerns of DL/WS (particularly with LGA slots when you now basically combine AA/B6, even if it isn’t a JV, it’s still significant).
 
onwFan
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Re: UNCONFIRMED:DELTA & WESTJET to reapply for TRANSBORDER JV

Sat Jul 24, 2021 3:12 am

jbs2886 wrote:
rbavfan wrote:
kavok wrote:
I suspect the argument will be along the lines of: “The DOT now allows B6/AA to effectively coordinate with minimal concessions, but yet the proposed WS/DL JV was forced into significant concessions for approval… please reconsider.”


B6 and AA can code share but they do not have the ability to do what a AT-JV can. They cannot share metal or work together on setting fares.


It’s not about that though, it’s about AA/B6 are demonstrating significant ability to coordinate and compete against others in NYC, that lessens the potential concerns of DL/WS (particularly with LGA slots when you now basically combine AA/B6, even if it isn’t a JV, it’s still significant).

It was not about that either. NK’s point was that the slots that WS is using were those that DL gave up to facilitate new entrants; and now offering ATI to WS with DL without forfeiting the slots destroys the whole purpose. And that point still stands.
 
jbs2886
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Re: UNCONFIRMED:DELTA & WESTJET to reapply for TRANSBORDER JV

Sat Jul 24, 2021 3:26 am

onwFan wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
rbavfan wrote:

B6 and AA can code share but they do not have the ability to do what a AT-JV can. They cannot share metal or work together on setting fares.


It’s not about that though, it’s about AA/B6 are demonstrating significant ability to coordinate and compete against others in NYC, that lessens the potential concerns of DL/WS (particularly with LGA slots when you now basically combine AA/B6, even if it isn’t a JV, it’s still significant).

It was not about that either. NK’s point was that the slots that WS is using were those that DL gave up to facilitate new entrants; and now offering ATI to WS with DL without forfeiting the slots destroys the whole purpose. And that point still stands.


I realize that, but it will certainly be central to DL/B6 argument. If it wasn’t, they probably wouldn’t be resubmitting. I did not say nor am I saying the new entrant point won’t win the day, I’m only responding that just because AA/B6 is not a JV is not prohibitive to making that argument.
 
DaCubbyBearBar
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Re: UNCONFIRMED:DELTA & WESTJET to reapply for TRANSBORDER JV

Sat Jul 24, 2021 3:54 am

rbavfan wrote:
kavok wrote:
I suspect the argument will be along the lines of: “The DOT now allows B6/AA to effectively coordinate with minimal concessions, but yet the proposed WS/DL JV was forced into significant concessions for approval… please reconsider.”


B6 and AA can code share but they do not have the ability to do what a AT-JV can. They cannot share metal or work together on setting fares.

But early indications to me is that there is a lot of coordination going on….. jetAmerican
 
DaCubbyBearBar
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Re: UNCONFIRMED:DELTA & WESTJET to reapply for TRANSBORDER JV

Sat Jul 24, 2021 3:55 am

kavok wrote:
I suspect the argument will be along the lines of: “The DOT now allows B6/AA to effectively coordinate with minimal concessions, but yet the proposed WS/DL JV was forced into significant concessions for approval… please reconsider.”

EXACTLY what I was thinking
 
usflyer msp
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Re: UNCONFIRMED:DELTA & WESTJET to reapply for TRANSBORDER JV

Sat Jul 24, 2021 4:49 am

DaCubbyBearBar wrote:
kavok wrote:
I suspect the argument will be along the lines of: “The DOT now allows B6/AA to effectively coordinate with minimal concessions, but yet the proposed WS/DL JV was forced into significant concessions for approval… please reconsider.”

EXACTLY what I was thinking


That is a weak argument.
First B6/AA have nothing to do with US-Canada - the subject of the DL/WS JV.

Second B6/AA have nothing to do with DL getting slots they had to give up returned to them through a backdoor.
 
jbs2886
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Re: UNCONFIRMED:DELTA & WESTJET to reapply for TRANSBORDER JV

Sat Jul 24, 2021 5:48 am

usflyer msp wrote:
DaCubbyBearBar wrote:
kavok wrote:
I suspect the argument will be along the lines of: “The DOT now allows B6/AA to effectively coordinate with minimal concessions, but yet the proposed WS/DL JV was forced into significant concessions for approval… please reconsider.”

EXACTLY what I was thinking


That is a weak argument.
First B6/AA have nothing to do with US-Canada - the subject of the DL/WS JV.

Second B6/AA have nothing to do with DL getting slots they had to give up returned to them through a backdoor.


I suspect DL’s consultants and lawyers who know the DOT have a better understanding of what is a weak argument than posters here. You can argue AA/B6 not about Canada or DL’s slots, but the premise of the issue is ability to compete, it’s not as narrow as you believe.
 
Corpsnerd09
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Re: Unconfirmed: Delta & WestJet to reapply for transborder JV

Sat Jul 24, 2021 5:55 am

What sort of argument does a full US-Canada transborder JV have against a domestic codeshare and FF program for NYC exactly? Is it cause rhe a.net fanboys think AA and B6 having an alliance somehow means DL/WS no longer have to give up valuable slots in LGA for more competitive transborder flights by other carriers?
 
usflyer msp
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Re: UNCONFIRMED:DELTA & WESTJET to reapply for TRANSBORDER JV

Sat Jul 24, 2021 6:07 am

jbs2886 wrote:
rbavfan wrote:
kavok wrote:
I suspect the argument will be along the lines of: “The DOT now allows B6/AA to effectively coordinate with minimal concessions, but yet the proposed WS/DL JV was forced into significant concessions for approval… please reconsider.”


B6 and AA can code share but they do not have the ability to do what a AT-JV can. They cannot share metal or work together on setting fares.


It’s not about that though, it’s about AA/B6 are demonstrating significant ability to coordinate and compete against others in NYC, that lessens the potential concerns of DL/WS (particularly with LGA slots when you now basically combine AA/B6, even if it isn’t a JV, it’s still significant).


DL's consultants and lawyers also thought the first attempt would go through without any major concessions needed, so meh.
 
global1
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Re: Unconfirmed: Delta & WestJet to reapply for transborder JV

Sat Jul 24, 2021 3:36 pm

It will happen eventually.
Look at how AA/BA had to try for years before getting approval along with the initial denial of AA/Qantas. And those were much more complicated than 6 rt slots at LGA.
Even DL/AM had its fits and starts.
 
usflyer msp
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Re: Unconfirmed: Delta & WestJet to reapply for transborder JV

Sat Jul 24, 2021 8:11 pm

global1 wrote:
It will happen eventually.
Look at how AA/BA had to try for years before getting approval along with the initial denial of AA/Qantas. And those were much more complicated than 6 rt slots at LGA.
Even DL/AM had its fits and starts.


AA/BA had to try for years because the other US carriers were not allowed to fly to LHR. Once that was resolved the JV was approved relatively quickly with minimal concessions (some slots for competitors on LHR-BOS/MIA).

B6/AA does nothing to change DL having 45% of LGA slots and effectively gaining control over another 8 that they had to previously divest through the JV.
 
UPNYGuy
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Re: Unconfirmed: Delta & WestJet to reapply for transborder JV

Sat Jul 24, 2021 8:18 pm

Also remember that B6 will be entering YVR, so the “B6 doesn’t fly to Canada” argument doesn’t hold water any longer.
 
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IceCream
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Re: Unconfirmed: Delta & WestJet to reapply for transborder JV

Sat Jul 24, 2021 8:26 pm

I mean I would assume that there has to be some sort of valid argument, otherwise, why would DL/WS reapply? It would seem like a waste of time to reapply if they didn't think they had a good shot of being approved.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Unconfirmed: Delta & WestJet to reapply for transborder JV

Sat Jul 24, 2021 8:29 pm

IceCream wrote:
I mean I would assume that there has to be some sort of valid argument, otherwise, why would DL/WS reapply? It would seem like a waste of time to reapply if they didn't think they had a good shot of being approved.


Exactly, but some posters apparently know better.
 
dstblj52
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Re: Unconfirmed: Delta & WestJet to reapply for transborder JV

Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:41 am

IceCream wrote:
I mean I would assume that there has to be some sort of valid argument, otherwise, why would DL/WS reapply? It would seem like a waste of time to reapply if they didn't think they had a good shot of being approved.

Given the misterious ways of the dot honestly airlines try, and try and try again until they get the answer they like
 
graceintheair
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Re: Unconfirmed: Delta & WestJet to reapply for transborder JV

Sun Jul 25, 2021 1:20 am

I hope that don't get it. Airfare to Canada is insane. We don't need less competition.
 
WS7M8
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Re: Unconfirmed: Delta & WestJet to reapply for transborder JV

Sun Jul 25, 2021 1:45 am

graceintheair wrote:
I hope that don't get it. Airfare to Canada is insane. We don't need less competition.



Try pricing your next Canadian airfare without the taxes, AIF fees, NAV Canada surcharges, security fees, etc..... You'll soon see that the ticket prices are reasonable - it is the taxes and endless add-ons that drives them so high.
 
dstblj52
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Re: Unconfirmed: Delta & WestJet to reapply for transborder JV

Mon Jul 26, 2021 12:36 am

WS7M8 wrote:
graceintheair wrote:
I hope that don't get it. Airfare to Canada is insane. We don't need less competition.



Try pricing your next Canadian airfare without the taxes, AIF fees, NAV Canada surcharges, security fees, etc..... You'll soon see that the ticket prices are reasonable - it is the taxes and endless add-ons that drives them so high.

airfares to canada pre taxes a pretty normal rasm, its just the taxes are stupid high
 
ScottB
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Re: Unconfirmed: Delta & WestJet to reapply for transborder JV

Mon Jul 26, 2021 1:00 am

IceCream wrote:
I mean I would assume that there has to be some sort of valid argument, otherwise, why would DL/WS reapply? It would seem like a waste of time to reapply if they didn't think they had a good shot of being approved.


There's a different administration in charge of the executive branch and Delta has been playing the political game in accordance with the views of said administration.
 
dstblj52
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Re: Unconfirmed: Delta & WestJet to reapply for transborder JV

Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:23 am

ScottB wrote:
IceCream wrote:
I mean I would assume that there has to be some sort of valid argument, otherwise, why would DL/WS reapply? It would seem like a waste of time to reapply if they didn't think they had a good shot of being approved.


There's a different administration in charge of the executive branch and Delta has been playing the political game in accordance with the views of said administration.

Delta has been one of the largest corporate donors, to georgia democrats, and now georgia has two democratic senators, and gave joe Biden the senate they may expect that some pressure will be applied to Pete Buttigieg to get this thing through
 
usflyer msp
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Re: Unconfirmed: Delta & WestJet to reapply for transborder JV

Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:58 am

dstblj52 wrote:
ScottB wrote:
IceCream wrote:
I mean I would assume that there has to be some sort of valid argument, otherwise, why would DL/WS reapply? It would seem like a waste of time to reapply if they didn't think they had a good shot of being approved.


There's a different administration in charge of the executive branch and Delta has been playing the political game in accordance with the views of said administration.

Delta has been one of the largest corporate donors, to georgia democrats, and now georgia has two democratic senators, and gave joe Biden the senate they may expect that some pressure will be applied to Pete Buttigieg to get this thing through


Actually that is not really true.
DL did not contribute one dime to Ossoff or Warnock.
They contributed 30K each to the Dem House and Senate Campaign Committees which is minimal.

https://www.opensecrets.org/political-a ... mmary/2020

It would be tough for DL to overcome this administration's generally more stringent views on anti-trust law and specifically Chuck Schumer advocating for more competition at LGA not less.
 
dstblj52
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Re: Unconfirmed: Delta & WestJet to reapply for transborder JV

Mon Jul 26, 2021 5:15 am

usflyer msp wrote:
dstblj52 wrote:
ScottB wrote:

There's a different administration in charge of the executive branch and Delta has been playing the political game in accordance with the views of said administration.

Delta has been one of the largest corporate donors, to georgia democrats, and now georgia has two democratic senators, and gave joe Biden the senate they may expect that some pressure will be applied to Pete Buttigieg to get this thing through


Actually that is not really true.
DL did not contribute one dime to Ossoff or Warnock.
They contributed 30K each to the Dem House and Senate Campaign Committees which is minimal.

https://www.opensecrets.org/political-a ... mmary/2020

It would be tough for DL to overcome this administration's generally more stringent views on anti-trust law and specifically Chuck Schumer advocating for more competition at LGA not less.

Your looking in the wrong place, that only has federal election disclosures, since the avgas tax fight they have been one of the biggest supporters of the Georgia Democratic Party, and of state and local Democratic candidates, mostly due to the georgia democratic party largely being more pro atlanta, then the georgia gop
 
ScottB
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Re: Unconfirmed: Delta & WestJet to reapply for transborder JV

Mon Jul 26, 2021 2:01 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
It would be tough for DL to overcome this administration's generally more stringent views on anti-trust law and specifically Chuck Schumer advocating for more competition at LGA not less.


Delta is investing a ton of money at LGA and creating a bunch of union construction jobs with that project. You don't think Schumer knows this and appreciates Delta's commitment to LGA modernization -- not to mention their 10-figure investment in JFK T4?
 
usflyer msp
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Re: Unconfirmed: Delta & WestJet to reapply for transborder JV

Mon Jul 26, 2021 2:28 pm

ScottB wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
It would be tough for DL to overcome this administration's generally more stringent views on anti-trust law and specifically Chuck Schumer advocating for more competition at LGA not less.


Delta is investing a ton of money at LGA and creating a bunch of union construction jobs with that project. You don't think Schumer knows this and appreciates Delta's commitment to LGA modernization -- not to mention their 10-figure investment in JFK T4?


Which they are still going to do with or without 8 slots...
 
ScottB
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Re: Unconfirmed: Delta & WestJet to reapply for transborder JV

Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:37 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
Which they are still going to do with or without 8 slots...


I agree, but that doesn't mean they lack influence with politicians who could sway DOT/DOJ to drop the requirement to divest slots.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Unconfirmed: Delta & WestJet to reapply for transborder JV

Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:15 pm

ScottB wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
Which they are still going to do with or without 8 slots...


I agree, but that doesn't mean they lack influence with politicians who could sway DOT/DOJ to drop the requirement to divest slots.


I think the slots are a bigger problem than they were in a deal like the AA/US merger. If the slots have to be used transborder, PD - a new entrant to LGA with a track record of consistent transborder service - is going to be very competitive. Preclearance at YTZ seems a when, not an if, at this point, and PD having LGA access would be very challenging for all of the current players on NYC-YTO. AC has some ability to fight back because they have YTZ access. DL and WS do not. That's a challenge in arguably the most important transborder city pair.
 
kavok
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Re: Unconfirmed: Delta & WestJet to reapply for transborder JV

Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:27 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
ScottB wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
Which they are still going to do with or without 8 slots...


I agree, but that doesn't mean they lack influence with politicians who could sway DOT/DOJ to drop the requirement to divest slots.


I think the slots are a bigger problem than they were in a deal like the AA/US merger. If the slots have to be used transborder, PD - a new entrant to LGA with a track record of consistent transborder service - is going to be very competitive. Preclearance at YTZ seems a when, not an if, at this point, and PD having LGA access would be very challenging for all of the current players on NYC-YTO. AC has some ability to fight back because they have YTZ access. DL and WS do not. That's a challenge in arguably the most important transborder city pair.


That is an interesting argument, and sort of a double edged sword. On one side, the DOT could view that argument as a reason to insist on the DL/WS slot divestment, as opening up (more) LGA-YTZ access for flyers in general could be viewed as a net gain for the consumer on NYC-YTO holistically. On the other hand, should YTZ get preclearance, I agree that DL/WS is placed at a competitive disadvantage without YTZ access, and forcing them to gift additional slots to competition who have a location with competitive advantages could be seen as overly harsh.

I see both sides to it. I will be curious how the DOT responds, should that argument be made.
 
dstblj52
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Re: Unconfirmed: Delta & WestJet to reapply for transborder JV

Mon Jul 26, 2021 9:58 pm

ScottB wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
Which they are still going to do with or without 8 slots...


I agree, but that doesn't mean they lack influence with politicians who could sway DOT/DOJ to drop the requirement to divest slots.

With all but one hub in a democratic state they probably have a better chance now then under the Trump administration
 
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admanager
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Re: Unconfirmed: Delta & WestJet to reapply for transborder JV

Mon Jul 26, 2021 10:55 pm

Delta and their lawyers clearly understand the issues with the previous application. They also know what their level of pain is going to be should there be validity to the rumor and they do reapply. What we don’t know is what will change in a new application and is there a bigger issue at stake. With the UA and AC agreement having several city pair carve outs, it’s possible DL sees an opportunity to capture more of of the cross border traffic and or to strategically block AA from a Canadian partner.
I also wonder if Westjet’s trans-Atlantic routes could play into this. Could this be a way to shift low yield fares off DL.
Do we ever see Westjet implementing a domestic F cabin so they can provide an equivalent product to DL?
 
WS7M8
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Re: Unconfirmed: Delta & WestJet to reapply for transborder JV

Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:51 pm

admanager wrote:

I also wonder if Westjet’s trans-Atlantic routes could play into this. Could this be a way to shift low yield fares off DL.

Do we ever see Westjet implementing a domestic F cabin so they can provide an equivalent product to DL?



The bolded sentence I have been waiting (patiently) for a few years for it to play out. I could see WS becoming essentially a way for DL to dump lower-yielding pax onwards to Europe (eg ATL-YYZ-LGW, or SEA - YYC - CDG), saving the premium seats for themselves. Unfortunately COVID put a damper on things the last two years....but it'll be interesting to see how DL incorporates WS into their TATL JV with AF/KLM....I strongly suspect this is what they'll be aiming to do.
 
dstblj52
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Re: Unconfirmed: Delta & WestJet to reapply for transborder JV

Tue Jul 27, 2021 2:05 am

WS7M8 wrote:
admanager wrote:

I also wonder if Westjet’s trans-Atlantic routes could play into this. Could this be a way to shift low yield fares off DL.

Do we ever see Westjet implementing a domestic F cabin so they can provide an equivalent product to DL?



The bolded sentence I have been waiting (patiently) for a few years for it to play out. I could see WS becoming essentially a way for DL to dump lower-yielding pax onwards to Europe (eg ATL-YYZ-LGW, or SEA - YYC - CDG), saving the premium seats for themselves. Unfortunately COVID put a damper on things the last two years....but it'll be interesting to see how DL incorporates WS into their TATL JV with AF/KLM....I strongly suspect this is what they'll be aiming to do.

its what they did with virgin atlantic
 
casperCA
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Re: Unconfirmed: Delta & WestJet to reapply for transborder JV

Tue Jul 27, 2021 2:07 am

admanager wrote:
Delta and their lawyers clearly understand the issues with the previous application. They also know what their level of pain is going to be should there be validity to the rumor and they do reapply. What we don’t know is what will change in a new application and is there a bigger issue at stake. With the UA and AC agreement having several city pair carve outs, it’s possible DL sees an opportunity to capture more of of the cross border traffic and or to strategically block AA from a Canadian partner.
I also wonder if Westjet’s trans-Atlantic routes could play into this. Could this be a way to shift low yield fares off DL.
Do we ever see Westjet implementing a domestic F cabin so they can provide an equivalent product to DL?


Honestly, the WS, J cabin on the 737 is on par with F at DL now that all the 737 have been upgraded. The WS International J is on part with International J at DL. Not certain that should be an issue.

WS has some very economy heavy 787s. In a combined joint venture it is an interesting mix. WS was looking at having service to Rome and Spain. Their aircraft are likely a better fit for those destinations that DL.
 
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Aresxerexade
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Re: Unconfirmed: Delta & WestJet to reapply for transborder JV

Tue Jul 27, 2021 3:56 am

Would the primary reason for the JV not be primarily about improving each carriers trans border presence vs the intent to offload international low yielding fare traffic when WS does not yet have a mature international network ?
 
dstblj52
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Re: Unconfirmed: Delta & WestJet to reapply for transborder JV

Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:12 am

Aresxerexade wrote:
Would the primary reason for the JV not be primarily about improving each carriers trans border presence vs the intent to offload international low yielding fare traffic when WS does not yet have a mature international network ?

Delta has a long track record of shuffling off low yielding traffic onto jv partners so they might well be planning to and the reason to do so is money
 
jbs2886
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Re: Unconfirmed: Delta & WestJet to reapply for transborder JV

Tue Jul 27, 2021 6:00 am

dstblj52 wrote:
Aresxerexade wrote:
Would the primary reason for the JV not be primarily about improving each carriers trans border presence vs the intent to offload international low yielding fare traffic when WS does not yet have a mature international network ?

Delta has a long track record of shuffling off low yielding traffic onto jv partners so they might well be planning to and the reason to do so is money


What evidence do you have DL has a long track record of shuffling low yield traffic to JV partners?
 
PSA727
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Re: Unconfirmed: Delta & WestJet to reapply for transborder JV

Tue Jul 27, 2021 7:46 am

Let me get this straight. Delta is going to shuffle off all of those passengers who want a low-price coach ticket to Europe onto WestJet, so that Delta can turn around and sell those coach seats for lots of money? Who again wants to overpay for a coach seat on Delta?

And AA/B6 did have to give up slot pairs at both DCA and JFK in order for their NEA to get approval. So, I'm not sure why DL would try and make the argument that they no longer have to do so at LGA for their JV/ATI deal with WestJet to be approved.
 
dstblj52
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Re: Unconfirmed: Delta & WestJet to reapply for transborder JV

Tue Jul 27, 2021 9:05 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
dstblj52 wrote:
Aresxerexade wrote:
Would the primary reason for the JV not be primarily about improving each carriers trans border presence vs the intent to offload international low yielding fare traffic when WS does not yet have a mature international network ?

Delta has a long track record of shuffling off low yielding traffic onto jv partners so they might well be planning to and the reason to do so is money


What evidence do you have DL has a long track record of shuffling low yield traffic to JV partners?

Thats what we discovered with how they where using virgin atlantic
 
kavok
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Re: Unconfirmed: Delta & WestJet to reapply for transborder JV

Tue Jul 27, 2021 9:35 pm

dstblj52 wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
dstblj52 wrote:
Delta has a long track record of shuffling off low yielding traffic onto jv partners so they might well be planning to and the reason to do so is money


What evidence do you have DL has a long track record of shuffling low yield traffic to JV partners?

Thats what we discovered with how they where using virgin atlantic


The difference is using WS and transiting USA-Canada-Europe requires going through the full Canadian immigration process, and then also EU immigration upon arrival. And it also involves paying the taxes/fees associated with transiting through Canada and it’s immigration process.

When DL used VS/KL/AF for TATL routings, there was just the EU immigration process. I know that is obviously changing now somewhat for VS with Brexit.

But the point is using WS for USA O/D TATL involves extra taxes/fees, boosting ticket cost… and also requiring transiting pax to have long layover times at YYZ (or elsewhere in Canada) to provide enough time to go through Canadian immigration. So it isn’t as easy as it sounds.
 
Thomaas
Posts: 722
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:52 pm

Re: Unconfirmed: Delta & WestJet to reapply for transborder JV

Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:27 pm

kavok wrote:
dstblj52 wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:

What evidence do you have DL has a long track record of shuffling low yield traffic to JV partners?

Thats what we discovered with how they where using virgin atlantic


The difference is using WS and transiting USA-Canada-Europe requires going through the full Canadian immigration process, and then also EU immigration upon arrival. And it also involves paying the taxes/fees associated with transiting through Canada and it’s immigration process.

When DL used VS/KL/AF for TATL routings, there was just the EU immigration process. I know that is obviously changing now somewhat for VS with Brexit.

But the point is using WS for USA O/D TATL involves extra taxes/fees, boosting ticket cost… and also requiring transiting pax to have long layover times at YYZ (or elsewhere in Canada) to provide enough time to go through Canadian immigration. So it isn’t as easy as it sounds.

You do not need to go through Canadian immigration at either YYZ, YUL or YVR (not sure about YYC) to connect from the US to another international destination. I also believe some of the taxes involved are waived for international connections.
 
Thomaas
Posts: 722
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:52 pm

Re: Unconfirmed: Delta & WestJet to reapply for transborder JV

Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:27 pm

kavok wrote:
dstblj52 wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:

What evidence do you have DL has a long track record of shuffling low yield traffic to JV partners?

Thats what we discovered with how they where using virgin atlantic


The difference is using WS and transiting USA-Canada-Europe requires going through the full Canadian immigration process, and then also EU immigration upon arrival. And it also involves paying the taxes/fees associated with transiting through Canada and it’s immigration process.

When DL used VS/KL/AF for TATL routings, there was just the EU immigration process. I know that is obviously changing now somewhat for VS with Brexit.

But the point is using WS for USA O/D TATL involves extra taxes/fees, boosting ticket cost… and also requiring transiting pax to have long layover times at YYZ (or elsewhere in Canada) to provide enough time to go through Canadian immigration. So it isn’t as easy as it sounds.

You do not need to go through Canadian immigration at either YYZ, YUL or YVR (not sure about YYC) to connect from the US to another international destination. I also believe some of the taxes involved are waived for international connections.
 
9252fly
Posts: 1207
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2005 7:19 am

Re: Unconfirmed: Delta & WestJet to reapply for transborder JV

Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:36 pm

Thomaas wrote:
kavok wrote:
dstblj52 wrote:
Thats what we discovered with how they where using virgin atlantic


The difference is using WS and transiting USA-Canada-Europe requires going through the full Canadian immigration process, and then also EU immigration upon arrival. And it also involves paying the taxes/fees associated with transiting through Canada and it’s immigration process.

When DL used VS/KL/AF for TATL routings, there was just the EU immigration process. I know that is obviously changing now somewhat for VS with Brexit.

But the point is using WS for USA O/D TATL involves extra taxes/fees, boosting ticket cost… and also requiring transiting pax to have long layover times at YYZ (or elsewhere in Canada) to provide enough time to go through Canadian immigration. So it isn’t as easy as it sounds.

You do not need to go through Canadian immigration at either YYZ, YUL or YVR (not sure about YYC) to connect from the US to another international destination. I also believe some of the taxes involved are waived for international connections.


Also, connecting through one of the Canadian airports on the return allows passengers to clear US Customs & Immigration at the same time, some US travelers consider it a big plus. The poster you quoted was factually incorrect on so many levels.
 
casperCA
Posts: 38
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2020 9:38 pm

Re: Unconfirmed: Delta & WestJet to reapply for transborder JV

Wed Jul 28, 2021 12:05 am

9252fly wrote:
Thomaas wrote:
kavok wrote:

The difference is using WS and transiting USA-Canada-Europe requires going through the full Canadian immigration process, and then also EU immigration upon arrival. And it also involves paying the taxes/fees associated with transiting through Canada and it’s immigration process.

When DL used VS/KL/AF for TATL routings, there was just the EU immigration process. I know that is obviously changing now somewhat for VS with Brexit.

But the point is using WS for USA O/D TATL involves extra taxes/fees, boosting ticket cost… and also requiring transiting pax to have long layover times at YYZ (or elsewhere in Canada) to provide enough time to go through Canadian immigration. So it isn’t as easy as it sounds.

You do not need to go through Canadian immigration at either YYZ, YUL or YVR (not sure about YYC) to connect from the US to another international destination. I also believe some of the taxes involved are waived for international connections.


For US passengers transiting Canada baggage is automatically transferred without the need to recollect it. It is displayed to the US boarder authorities on a tv monitor when they scan the passengers boarding pass. Far simpler process that using a US airport. however it is limited to only certain terminals and airports in Canada.


Also, connecting through one of the Canadian airports on the return allows passengers to clear US Customs & Immigration at the same time, some US travelers consider it a big plus. The poster you quoted was factually incorrect on so many levels.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 15270
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: Unconfirmed: Delta & WestJet to reapply for transborder JV

Wed Jul 28, 2021 12:09 am

Thomaas wrote:
kavok wrote:
dstblj52 wrote:
Thats what we discovered with how they where using virgin atlantic


The difference is using WS and transiting USA-Canada-Europe requires going through the full Canadian immigration process, and then also EU immigration upon arrival. And it also involves paying the taxes/fees associated with transiting through Canada and it’s immigration process.

When DL used VS/KL/AF for TATL routings, there was just the EU immigration process. I know that is obviously changing now somewhat for VS with Brexit.

But the point is using WS for USA O/D TATL involves extra taxes/fees, boosting ticket cost… and also requiring transiting pax to have long layover times at YYZ (or elsewhere in Canada) to provide enough time to go through Canadian immigration. So it isn’t as easy as it sounds.

You do not need to go through Canadian immigration at either YYZ, YUL or YVR (not sure about YYC) to connect from the US to another international destination. I also believe some of the taxes involved are waived for international connections.


Unless something has changed recently, connecting WS passengers at YYZ must claim Canada Customs; only passengers in Terminal 1 are able to go straight to departures.
 
User avatar
admanager
Posts: 308
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2011 11:28 pm

Re: Unconfirmed: Delta & WestJet to reapply for transborder JV

Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:19 am

An interesting headline in the print copy of today’s Wall Street Journal, “Under Garland, DOJ takes a harder line on antitrust.”
If there is an application for a JV, the bar might be higher than before.
 
User avatar
Aresxerexade
Posts: 61
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:08 pm

Re: Unconfirmed: Delta & WestJet to reapply for transborder JV

Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:25 am

admanager wrote:
An interesting headline in the print copy of today’s Wall Street Journal, “Under Garland, DOJ takes a harder line on antitrust.”
If there is an application for a JV, the bar might be higher than before.

very good point. President Biden has signaled his administration would take an aggressive approach to enforcing antitrust laws through appointing senior regulators who have been critical of corporate power. He also issued an executive order earlier this month directing further action by regulatory agencies to promote competition in a range of industries. so lets see how far this stretched into the transport sector.

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