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FlyingElvii
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Cessna SkyCourier Public Flying Demo Tomorrow at EAA Airventure Oshkosh

Sun Jul 25, 2021 9:43 pm

Listed on the Textron Aviation Schulz of events card in the arrival packet.

Will this be the first public flying demonstration for this?
 
 
FlyingElvii
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Re: Cessna SkyCourier Public Flying Demo Tomorrow at EAA Airventure Oshkosh

Mon Jul 26, 2021 7:44 pm

Cannot figure out how to post cell photos, I have several of the Slycourier today
 
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FLALEFTY
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Re: Cessna SkyCourier Public Flying Demo Tomorrow at EAA Airventure Oshkosh

Mon Jul 26, 2021 9:29 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
Cannot figure out how to post cell photos, I have several of the Slycourier today


If you have Instagram and/or Twitter you can post them up there and then share the links on a post here.

This is a very impressive looking aircraft. Soon, FedEx Feeder should have themselves a workhorse in the Skycourier.

https://twitter.com/TextronAviation/sta ... 5976411153[/quote]
 
Yeastbeast
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Re: Cessna SkyCourier Public Flying Demo Tomorrow at EAA Airventure Oshkosh

Mon Jul 26, 2021 9:51 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
Cannot figure out how to post cell photos, I have several of the Slycourier today


I use postimages.org. here's the instructions I was given on another site:

1. Take pic on phone
2. Go to postimage https://postimages.org/
Select image from your photos, upload.
3.Scroll down, tap copy icon on right of the seventh option down, Hotlink for forums.
4. Then tap in post to paste image.
 
GSPSPOT
Posts: 2637
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Re: Cessna SkyCourier Public Flying Demo Tomorrow at EAA Airventure Oshkosh

Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:11 pm

FLALEFTY wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
Cannot figure out how to post cell photos, I have several of the Slycourier today


If you have Instagram and/or Twitter you can post them up there and then share the links on a post here.

This is a very impressive looking aircraft. Soon, FedEx Feeder should have themselves a workhorse in the Skycourier.

https://twitter.com/TextronAviation/sta ... 5976411153
[/quote]
MKE has MANY Fedex feeder routes currently served with the Caravan. Hopefully we'll see Skycouriers here soon!
 
Okcflyer
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Re: Cessna SkyCourier Public Flying Demo Tomorrow at EAA Airventure Oshkosh

Tue Jul 27, 2021 4:06 am

A comments:

-I’m a bit surprised it uses a traditional 4 blade non-swept prop
-surprised one of the exhaust flows is up over the wing. Guessing they figured something out in their CFD model to do this as it seems backwards.
- I find the bottom brace very strange. It makes sense why it’s below the floor line, but I’m surprised at how wide it sticks out (I guess needed for lateral stability) and at the lack of contouring on the bottom side of fuse. I’m sure they tested it heavily and determined this made more sense, but it’s a bit strange compared to classical ways.
-similar, looks like the gear could fold into that bar with some mods at some point for pax carriers. Makes sense why the freight models aren’t retractable.
- find it odd there is no wheel flaring.
 
2175301
Posts: 2135
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 11:19 am

Re: Cessna SkyCourier Public Flying Demo Tomorrow at EAA Airventure Oshkosh

Tue Jul 27, 2021 4:13 am

Okcflyer wrote:
A comments:

-I’m a bit surprised it uses a traditional 4 blade non-swept prop
-surprised one of the exhaust flows is up over the wing. Guessing they figured something out in their CFD model to do this as it seems backwards.
- I find the bottom brace very strange. It makes sense why it’s below the floor line, but I’m surprised at how wide it sticks out (I guess needed for lateral stability) and at the lack of contouring on the bottom side of fuse. I’m sure they tested it heavily and determined this made more sense, but it’s a bit strange compared to classical ways.
-similar, looks like the gear could fold into that bar with some mods at some point for pax carriers. Makes sense why the freight models aren’t retractable.
- find it odd there is no wheel flaring.


The idea was to build an aircraft that was reasonably cheap so lots would be purchased. It would cost more money to improve those things... and I believe that they figured that improving those items did not add enough performance to justify the increased cost of an upgraded aircraft. The passenger version will not have folding landing gear.
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Cessna SkyCourier Public Flying Demo Tomorrow at EAA Airventure Oshkosh

Tue Jul 27, 2021 6:20 am

2175301 wrote:
Okcflyer wrote:
A comments:

-I’m a bit surprised it uses a traditional 4 blade non-swept prop
-surprised one of the exhaust flows is up over the wing. Guessing they figured something out in their CFD model to do this as it seems backwards.
- I find the bottom brace very strange. It makes sense why it’s below the floor line, but I’m surprised at how wide it sticks out (I guess needed for lateral stability) and at the lack of contouring on the bottom side of fuse. I’m sure they tested it heavily and determined this made more sense, but it’s a bit strange compared to classical ways.
-similar, looks like the gear could fold into that bar with some mods at some point for pax carriers. Makes sense why the freight models aren’t retractable.
- find it odd there is no wheel flaring.


The idea was to build an aircraft that was reasonably cheap so lots would be purchased. It would cost more money to improve those things... and I believe that they figured that improving those items did not add enough performance to justify the increased cost of an upgraded aircraft. The passenger version will not have folding landing gear.


I believe FedEX is the only customer so far for the SkyCourier, so there would have been lots of discussions between them of cost/benefit of many decisions. Things like retracting gear cost more than the benefit to FedEX and didn't get added.

I really like the SkyCourier for its basic utility, I think it will do well, like the Caravan's.
 
smithhaddon123
Posts: 19
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Re: Cessna SkyCourier Public Flying Demo Tomorrow at EAA Airventure Oshkosh

Tue Jul 27, 2021 6:30 am

Someone slapped a plank on a Transit. :yuck:
 
Noshow
Posts: 2696
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: Cessna SkyCourier Public Flying Demo Tomorrow at EAA Airventure Oshkosh

Tue Jul 27, 2021 6:36 am

This sort of no nonsense, purpose minded, utility engineering is smart. We need more of this thinking. Not everybody needs some F-35.
Cessna did this right with the 152, 172, straight wing Citation, Caravan and so on.
 
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zeke
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Re: Cessna SkyCourier Public Flying Demo Tomorrow at EAA Airventure Oshkosh

Tue Jul 27, 2021 7:03 am

That is what I would expect a twin engine turboprop from Vovlo to look like....
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Cessna SkyCourier Public Flying Demo Tomorrow at EAA Airventure Oshkosh

Tue Jul 27, 2021 8:25 am

2175301 wrote:
Okcflyer wrote:
A comments:

-I’m a bit surprised it uses a traditional 4 blade non-swept prop
-surprised one of the exhaust flows is up over the wing. Guessing they figured something out in their CFD model to do this as it seems backwards.
- I find the bottom brace very strange. It makes sense why it’s below the floor line, but I’m surprised at how wide it sticks out (I guess needed for lateral stability) and at the lack of contouring on the bottom side of fuse. I’m sure they tested it heavily and determined this made more sense, but it’s a bit strange compared to classical ways.
-similar, looks like the gear could fold into that bar with some mods at some point for pax carriers. Makes sense why the freight models aren’t retractable.
- find it odd there is no wheel flaring.


The idea was to build an aircraft that was reasonably cheap so lots would be purchased. It would cost more money to improve those things... and I believe that they figured that improving those items did not add enough performance to justify the increased cost of an upgraded aircraft. The passenger version will not have folding landing gear.


The other thing to wonder is: this seems like something that would also compete against the Twin Otter in a passenger version. I have to wonder who could actually consider this over a Dash 6, either a new plane or a zero-timed version.
 
metaldirtnskin
Posts: 134
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Re: Cessna SkyCourier Public Flying Demo Tomorrow at EAA Airventure Oshkosh

Tue Jul 27, 2021 7:57 pm

They're in the air right now if you manage to catch it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPNKXh9zlEQ

edit: it was a very short performance, just a takeoff and one low pass and then departed. I'll post the timestamp if I can when the stream is over.
 
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william
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Re: Cessna SkyCourier Public Flying Demo Tomorrow at EAA Airventure Oshkosh

Tue Jul 27, 2021 9:25 pm

metaldirtnskin wrote:
They're in the air right now if you manage to catch it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPNKXh9zlEQ

edit: it was a very short performance, just a takeoff and one low pass and then departed. I'll post the timestamp if I can when the stream is over.


Starts at 1:27
 
2175301
Posts: 2135
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 11:19 am

Re: Cessna SkyCourier Public Flying Demo Tomorrow at EAA Airventure Oshkosh

Tue Jul 27, 2021 9:36 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
2175301 wrote:
Okcflyer wrote:
A comments:

-I’m a bit surprised it uses a traditional 4 blade non-swept prop
-surprised one of the exhaust flows is up over the wing. Guessing they figured something out in their CFD model to do this as it seems backwards.
- I find the bottom brace very strange. It makes sense why it’s below the floor line, but I’m surprised at how wide it sticks out (I guess needed for lateral stability) and at the lack of contouring on the bottom side of fuse. I’m sure they tested it heavily and determined this made more sense, but it’s a bit strange compared to classical ways.
-similar, looks like the gear could fold into that bar with some mods at some point for pax carriers. Makes sense why the freight models aren’t retractable.
- find it odd there is no wheel flaring.


The idea was to build an aircraft that was reasonably cheap so lots would be purchased. It would cost more money to improve those things... and I believe that they figured that improving those items did not add enough performance to justify the increased cost of an upgraded aircraft. The passenger version will not have folding landing gear.


The other thing to wonder is: this seems like something that would also compete against the Twin Otter in a passenger version. I have to wonder who could actually consider this over a Dash 6, either a new plane or a zero-timed version.


Yes, I agree that a passenger version of this will take away some of the Twin Otter passenger sales. Not all though. I believe that the Twin Otter will still have the float plane and arctic weather market.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Cessna SkyCourier Public Flying Demo Tomorrow at EAA Airventure Oshkosh

Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:49 am

2175301 wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
2175301 wrote:

The idea was to build an aircraft that was reasonably cheap so lots would be purchased. It would cost more money to improve those things... and I believe that they figured that improving those items did not add enough performance to justify the increased cost of an upgraded aircraft. The passenger version will not have folding landing gear.


The other thing to wonder is: this seems like something that would also compete against the Twin Otter in a passenger version. I have to wonder who could actually consider this over a Dash 6, either a new plane or a zero-timed version.


Yes, I agree that a passenger version of this will take away some of the Twin Otter passenger sales. Not all though. I believe that the Twin Otter will still have the float plane and arctic weather market.

Why couldn't the SkyCourier handle artic weather?
 
JayinKitsap
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Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 9:55 am

Re: Cessna SkyCourier Public Flying Demo Tomorrow at EAA Airventure Oshkosh

Wed Jul 28, 2021 3:16 am

zeke wrote:
That is what I would expect a twin engine turboprop from Volvo to look like....


So true, the refined boxy look that performed best at the utilitarian level.
 
Noshow
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Re: Cessna SkyCourier Public Flying Demo Tomorrow at EAA Airventure Oshkosh

Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:11 am

Why couldn't the SkyCourier handle artic weather?


He might be talking about the wing icing accidents of the Caravan that is admittedly flown a lot by single junior pilots at night in all weather conditions as express package feeder.
 
FlyingElvii
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Re: Cessna SkyCourier Public Flying Demo Tomorrow at EAA Airventure Oshkosh

Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:34 pm

Per the rep here at Oshkosh, Textron is shooting for a list price of 6-6.5 mil each. Most airlines won’t pay that much, based on order size. That puts it well within the range of the caravan, for ops that need a larger sized aircraft.

If they can bring it in within the numbers, this aircraft is a game changer around the world.
 
FlyingElvii
Topic Author
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Re: Cessna SkyCourier Public Flying Demo Tomorrow at EAA Airventure Oshkosh

Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:37 pm

2175301 wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
2175301 wrote:

The idea was to build an aircraft that was reasonably cheap so lots would be purchased. It would cost more money to improve those things... and I believe that they figured that improving those items did not add enough performance to justify the increased cost of an upgraded aircraft. The passenger version will not have folding landing gear.


The other thing to wonder is: this seems like something that would also compete against the Twin Otter in a passenger version. I have to wonder who could actually consider this over a Dash 6, either a new plane or a zero-timed version.


Yes, I agree that a passenger version of this will take away some of the Twin Otter passenger sales. Not all though. I believe that the Twin Otter will still have the float plane and arctic weather market.

As the rep explained it, the pax version will be certified to 19 anywhere but the US, where it will be initially certified as a nine-seater. If there is demand, they can go through the insanely expensive and burdensome process of certifying as 19 in the US later.
 
as739x
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Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2003 7:23 am

Re: Cessna SkyCourier Public Flying Demo Tomorrow at EAA Airventure Oshkosh

Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:42 pm

JayinKitsap wrote:
2175301 wrote:
Okcflyer wrote:
A comments:

-I’m a bit surprised it uses a traditional 4 blade non-swept prop
-surprised one of the exhaust flows is up over the wing. Guessing they figured something out in their CFD model to do this as it seems backwards.
- I find the bottom brace very strange. It makes sense why it’s below the floor line, but I’m surprised at how wide it sticks out (I guess needed for lateral stability) and at the lack of contouring on the bottom side of fuse. I’m sure they tested it heavily and determined this made more sense, but it’s a bit strange compared to classical ways.
-similar, looks like the gear could fold into that bar with some mods at some point for pax carriers. Makes sense why the freight models aren’t retractable.
- find it odd there is no wheel flaring.


The idea was to build an aircraft that was reasonably cheap so lots would be purchased. It would cost more money to improve those things... and I believe that they figured that improving those items did not add enough performance to justify the increased cost of an upgraded aircraft. The passenger version will not have folding landing gear.


I believe FedEX is the only customer so far for the SkyCourier, so there would have been lots of discussions between them of cost/benefit of many decisions. Things like retracting gear cost more than the benefit to FedEX and didn't get added.

I really like the SkyCourier for its basic utility, I think it will do well, like the Caravan's.


Air Choice One had planned on some, however I think they are just fighting to survive at this point and most likely off the table.
 
2175301
Posts: 2135
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Re: Cessna SkyCourier Public Flying Demo Tomorrow at EAA Airventure Oshkosh

Wed Jul 28, 2021 7:36 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
2175301 wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:

The other thing to wonder is: this seems like something that would also compete against the Twin Otter in a passenger version. I have to wonder who could actually consider this over a Dash 6, either a new plane or a zero-timed version.


Yes, I agree that a passenger version of this will take away some of the Twin Otter passenger sales. Not all though. I believe that the Twin Otter will still have the float plane and arctic weather market.

Why couldn't the SkyCourier handle artic weather?


I'm sure that the SkyCourier will do fine in normal or even bad winter weather. However, things get extreme in the arctic and the carriers who operate there prefer well proven aircraft to handle those extremes. It's not worth the gamble to use an unproven aircraft in such an environment. There have been multiple cases of where things were really bad at the North or South Pole regions that the Twin Otter was to airplane of choice for the mission because everyone knows it can get in and out - even if its parked outside in the arctic weather.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Cessna SkyCourier Public Flying Demo Tomorrow at EAA Airventure Oshkosh

Thu Jul 29, 2021 3:35 am

2175301 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
2175301 wrote:

Yes, I agree that a passenger version of this will take away some of the Twin Otter passenger sales. Not all though. I believe that the Twin Otter will still have the float plane and arctic weather market.

Why couldn't the SkyCourier handle artic weather?


I'm sure that the SkyCourier will do fine in normal or even bad winter weather. However, things get extreme in the arctic and the carriers who operate there prefer well proven aircraft to handle those extremes. It's not worth the gamble to use an unproven aircraft in such an environment. There have been multiple cases of where things were really bad at the North or South Pole regions that the Twin Otter was to airplane of choice for the mission because everyone knows it can get in and out - even if its parked outside in the arctic weather.

Ah, the old belief that "only old things are good and new stuff is just throwaway crap"...
Before the Twin Otter became a proven aircraft, it was unproven; so is the SkyCourier... People need to live in the present and not the past.
 
2175301
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Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 11:19 am

Re: Cessna SkyCourier Public Flying Demo Tomorrow at EAA Airventure Oshkosh

Thu Jul 29, 2021 4:29 am

WayexTDI wrote:
2175301 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Why couldn't the SkyCourier handle artic weather?


I'm sure that the SkyCourier will do fine in normal or even bad winter weather. However, things get extreme in the arctic and the carriers who operate there prefer well proven aircraft to handle those extremes. It's not worth the gamble to use an unproven aircraft in such an environment. There have been multiple cases of where things were really bad at the North or South Pole regions that the Twin Otter was to airplane of choice for the mission because everyone knows it can get in and out - even if its parked outside in the arctic weather.

Ah, the old belief that "only old things are good and new stuff is just throwaway crap"...
Before the Twin Otter became a proven aircraft, it was unproven; so is the SkyCourier... People need to live in the present and not the past.


Well... If you wish to put up a $6 Million SkyCourier and a crew willing to be stranded to prove the aircraft in the worst weather in the world... That's up to you. If your not, then your not. I don't think the companies operating in the Arctic will be interested in that test. A new Twin Otter 400 sells for essentially the same money, has modern engines, glass cockpit, etc, and has a worldwide support system. So its not like their is any advantage to the SkyCourier. I just don't see anyone willing to fund that testing to prove it. Why bother.

Also, it is my understanding that the Twin Otter is certified right now to carry 19 passengers in the USA, Canada, and most of the world. Cessna is saying that they will not even try to certify the SkyCourier for that unless they receive substantial market interest in that. It will be limited to 9 passengers for now.
 
Noshow
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Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: Cessna SkyCourier Public Flying Demo Tomorrow at EAA Airventure Oshkosh

Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:16 am

Many express freighters wait most of the day for their evening and early morning duties. It would make sense to have a combi version available to be used as a regional commuter during the daytime.
 
Max Q
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Re: Cessna SkyCourier Public Flying Demo Tomorrow at EAA Airventure Oshkosh

Thu Jul 29, 2021 7:18 am

FLALEFTY wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
Cannot figure out how to post cell photos, I have several of the Slycourier today


If you have Instagram and/or Twitter you can post them up there and then share the links on a post here.

This is a very impressive looking aircraft. Soon, FedEx Feeder should have themselves a workhorse in the Skycourier.

https://twitter.com/TextronAviation/sta ... 5976411153
[/quote]


Is it ?

I mean I’m sure it will do the job well, but it’s about as ordinary as an aircraft gets
 
FlyingElvii
Topic Author
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Re: Cessna SkyCourier Public Flying Demo Tomorrow at EAA Airventure Oshkosh

Thu Jul 29, 2021 8:24 am

2175301 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
2175301 wrote:

I'm sure that the SkyCourier will do fine in normal or even bad winter weather. However, things get extreme in the arctic and the carriers who operate there prefer well proven aircraft to handle those extremes. It's not worth the gamble to use an unproven aircraft in such an environment. There have been multiple cases of where things were really bad at the North or South Pole regions that the Twin Otter was to airplane of choice for the mission because everyone knows it can get in and out - even if its parked outside in the arctic weather.

Ah, the old belief that "only old things are good and new stuff is just throwaway crap"...
Before the Twin Otter became a proven aircraft, it was unproven; so is the SkyCourier... People need to live in the present and not the past.


Well... If you wish to put up a $6 Million SkyCourier and a crew willing to be stranded to prove the aircraft in the worst weather in the world... That's up to you. If your not, then your not. I don't think the companies operating in the Arctic will be interested in that test. A new Twin Otter 400 sells for essentially the same money, has modern engines, glass cockpit, etc, and has a worldwide support system. So its not like their is any advantage to the SkyCourier. I just don't see anyone willing to fund that testing to prove it. Why bother.

Also, it is my understanding that the Twin Otter is certified right now to carry 19 passengers in the USA, Canada, and most of the world. Cessna is saying that they will not even try to certify the SkyCourier for that unless they receive substantial market interest in that. It will be limited to 9 passengers for now.

19 everywhere, including Europe, BUT the United States.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Cessna SkyCourier Public Flying Demo Tomorrow at EAA Airventure Oshkosh

Thu Jul 29, 2021 3:24 pm

2175301 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
2175301 wrote:

I'm sure that the SkyCourier will do fine in normal or even bad winter weather. However, things get extreme in the arctic and the carriers who operate there prefer well proven aircraft to handle those extremes. It's not worth the gamble to use an unproven aircraft in such an environment. There have been multiple cases of where things were really bad at the North or South Pole regions that the Twin Otter was to airplane of choice for the mission because everyone knows it can get in and out - even if its parked outside in the arctic weather.

Ah, the old belief that "only old things are good and new stuff is just throwaway crap"...
Before the Twin Otter became a proven aircraft, it was unproven; so is the SkyCourier... People need to live in the present and not the past.


Well... If you wish to put up a $6 Million SkyCourier and a crew willing to be stranded to prove the aircraft in the worst weather in the world... That's up to you. If your not, then your not. I don't think the companies operating in the Arctic will be interested in that test. A new Twin Otter 400 sells for essentially the same money, has modern engines, glass cockpit, etc, and has a worldwide support system. So its not like their is any advantage to the SkyCourier. I just don't see anyone willing to fund that testing to prove it. Why bother.

Also, it is my understanding that the Twin Otter is certified right now to carry 19 passengers in the USA, Canada, and most of the world. Cessna is saying that they will not even try to certify the SkyCourier for that unless they receive substantial market interest in that. It will be limited to 9 passengers for now.

So, in your opinion, untested = unreliable? Again, that's thinking in the past.
Cessna is no small shop and is backed by a huge conglomerate (Textron); unlike Viking Air. Cessna has the support network in place.
As far as testing in the artic, it's already done for airliners; Cessna can easily do it as well (and maybe already plan to).
 
FlyingElvii
Topic Author
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Re: Cessna SkyCourier Public Flying Demo Tomorrow at EAA Airventure Oshkosh

Thu Jul 29, 2021 3:40 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
2175301 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Ah, the old belief that "only old things are good and new stuff is just throwaway crap"...
Before the Twin Otter became a proven aircraft, it was unproven; so is the SkyCourier... People need to live in the present and not the past.


Well... If you wish to put up a $6 Million SkyCourier and a crew willing to be stranded to prove the aircraft in the worst weather in the world... That's up to you. If your not, then your not. I don't think the companies operating in the Arctic will be interested in that test. A new Twin Otter 400 sells for essentially the same money, has modern engines, glass cockpit, etc, and has a worldwide support system. So its not like their is any advantage to the SkyCourier. I just don't see anyone willing to fund that testing to prove it. Why bother.

Also, it is my understanding that the Twin Otter is certified right now to carry 19 passengers in the USA, Canada, and most of the world. Cessna is saying that they will not even try to certify the SkyCourier for that unless they receive substantial market interest in that. It will be limited to 9 passengers for now.

So, in your opinion, untested = unreliable? Again, that's thinking in the past.
Cessna is no small shop and is backed by a huge conglomerate (Textron); unlike Viking Air. Cessna has the support network in place.
As far as testing in the artic, it's already done for airliners; Cessna can easily do it as well (and maybe already plan to).

That is a huge part of the selling point for this. Textron support WORLDWIDE.
 
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FLALEFTY
Posts: 1082
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Re: Cessna SkyCourier Public Flying Demo Tomorrow at EAA Airventure Oshkosh

Thu Jul 29, 2021 4:02 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
2175301 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Ah, the old belief that "only old things are good and new stuff is just throwaway crap"...
Before the Twin Otter became a proven aircraft, it was unproven; so is the SkyCourier... People need to live in the present and not the past.


Well... If you wish to put up a $6 Million SkyCourier and a crew willing to be stranded to prove the aircraft in the worst weather in the world... That's up to you. If your not, then your not. I don't think the companies operating in the Arctic will be interested in that test. A new Twin Otter 400 sells for essentially the same money, has modern engines, glass cockpit, etc, and has a worldwide support system. So its not like their is any advantage to the SkyCourier. I just don't see anyone willing to fund that testing to prove it. Why bother.

Also, it is my understanding that the Twin Otter is certified right now to carry 19 passengers in the USA, Canada, and most of the world. Cessna is saying that they will not even try to certify the SkyCourier for that unless they receive substantial market interest in that. It will be limited to 9 passengers for now.

So, in your opinion, untested = unreliable? Again, that's thinking in the past.
Cessna is no small shop and is backed by a huge conglomerate (Textron); unlike Viking Air. Cessna has the support network in place.
As far as testing in the artic, it's already done for airliners; Cessna can easily do it as well (and maybe already plan to).


Here's the testing status of the SkyCourier as of the end of March 2021. So far it is performing very well:

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all ... r-on-track

Max Q wrote:
Is it ?

I mean I’m sure it will do the job well, but it’s about as ordinary as an aircraft gets


In this case, an "ordinary aircraft" design will likely turn out to be the best design for its intended missions. Of course, your definition of "ordinary" ignores this aircraft's state-of-the-art flight deck that will allow it to be certified for single-pilot ops, as well as offering the very latest rendition of the legendary PWC PT6-65 engines.
 
MO11
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Re: Cessna SkyCourier Public Flying Demo Tomorrow at EAA Airventure Oshkosh

Thu Jul 29, 2021 5:14 pm

Noshow wrote:
Many express freighters wait most of the day for their evening and early morning duties. It would make sense to have a combi version available to be used as a regional commuter during the daytime.


Most of these flights sit all day in a place that doesn't need (more passenger) air service. Also, the cargo carrier won't put up with a breakdown or other delay during the passenger operation that would cause the cargo flight to be late. That airplane's primary mission is to get the freight to the hub before cutoff.
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Cessna SkyCourier Public Flying Demo Tomorrow at EAA Airventure Oshkosh

Thu Jul 29, 2021 5:28 pm

FLALEFTY wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
2175301 wrote:

Well... If you wish to put up a $6 Million SkyCourier and a crew willing to be stranded to prove the aircraft in the worst weather in the world... That's up to you. If your not, then your not. I don't think the companies operating in the Arctic will be interested in that test. A new Twin Otter 400 sells for essentially the same money, has modern engines, glass cockpit, etc, and has a worldwide support system. So its not like their is any advantage to the SkyCourier. I just don't see anyone willing to fund that testing to prove it. Why bother.

Also, it is my understanding that the Twin Otter is certified right now to carry 19 passengers in the USA, Canada, and most of the world. Cessna is saying that they will not even try to certify the SkyCourier for that unless they receive substantial market interest in that. It will be limited to 9 passengers for now.

So, in your opinion, untested = unreliable? Again, that's thinking in the past.
Cessna is no small shop and is backed by a huge conglomerate (Textron); unlike Viking Air. Cessna has the support network in place.
As far as testing in the artic, it's already done for airliners; Cessna can easily do it as well (and maybe already plan to).


Here's the testing status of the SkyCourier as of the end of March 2021. So far it is performing very well:

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all ... r-on-track

Max Q wrote:
Is it ?

I mean I’m sure it will do the job well, but it’s about as ordinary as an aircraft gets


In this case, an "ordinary aircraft" design will likely turn out to be the best design for its intended missions. Of course, your definition of "ordinary" ignores this aircraft's state-of-the-art flight deck that will allow it to be certified for single-pilot ops, as well as offering the very latest rendition of the legendary PWC PT6-65 engines.


Yes, this 'ordinary aircraft' has probably been optimized for its intended mission. A certain quality of runway was used in the design, any rougher of a surface increases gear impact, doing floats or adding allowance for drifting snow etc would require stronger gear and structure along with a payload hit.

Twin Otters are a very stout plane, designed for the rougher conditions of float planes and arctic operations. It is why they are not as competitive in the basic delivery van category. I'm sure FedEX evaluated every possible existing plane before signing in for a new clean sheet. A plane designed to land at most General Aviation airports, but not everything for everybody.
 
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tjwgrr
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Re: Cessna SkyCourier Public Flying Demo Tomorrow at EAA Airventure Oshkosh

Thu Jul 29, 2021 5:32 pm

Noshow wrote:
Many express freighters wait most of the day for their evening and early morning duties. It would make sense to have a combi version available to be used as a regional commuter during the daytime.


UPS tried that with a handful of their 727-100QCs on weekends from 1997-2001. Ended up not going too well.
 
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FiscAutTecGarte
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Re: Cessna SkyCourier Public Flying Demo Tomorrow at EAA Airventure Oshkosh

Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:14 pm

JayinKitsap wrote:
Yes, this 'ordinary aircraft' has probably been optimized for its intended mission. A certain quality of runway was used in the design, any rougher of a surface increases gear impact, doing floats or adding allowance for drifting snow etc would require stronger gear and structure along with a payload hit.


What do we know about the Sky Couriers non-retractable gear and support structure? Perhaps it was engineered for those forces? Not arguing, just asking...
 
Noshow
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Re: Cessna SkyCourier Public Flying Demo Tomorrow at EAA Airventure Oshkosh

Thu Jul 29, 2021 7:12 pm

UPS tried that with a handful of their 727-100QCs on weekends from 1997-2001. Ended up not going too well.


My flight instructor flew an ATR for FedEx each night. After a work day at the flight school (not a full day each day) he did some short hop the next cargo hub, got a hotel night on duty account, returned early morning and was ready for another day. That ATR parked next to our flight school all day. Late afternoon the loading started.

This is why as a student pilot you could end up getting instruction flight appointments with a well rested instructor in the morning at seven sharp. :mrgreen:
He was a very good instructor and moved on to heavier metal.
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Cessna SkyCourier Public Flying Demo Tomorrow at EAA Airventure Oshkosh

Thu Jul 29, 2021 9:02 pm

FiscAutTecGarte wrote:
JayinKitsap wrote:
Yes, this 'ordinary aircraft' has probably been optimized for its intended mission. A certain quality of runway was used in the design, any rougher of a surface increases gear impact, doing floats or adding allowance for drifting snow etc would require stronger gear and structure along with a payload hit.


What do we know about the Sky Couriers non-retractable gear and support structure? Perhaps it was engineered for those forces? Not arguing, just asking...


I postulate that FedEX outlined carefully the operational conditions used for the aircraft design. From the line card "Reliably lifting off day after day with heavy MAX PASSENGERS (PASSENGER) 19 payloads requires real performance and capability. The all-new CESSNA SKYCOURIER aircraft was designed to succeed in fully loaded high-tempo operations with maximum efficiency. Load, fly,
unload and repeat, then watch your business grow." Designing for the conditions actually operated in is the way to improve efficiency the most, where just a few percent makes a huge difference. Design runway conditions consider the surface roughness, integrity and waviness - presence of FOD such as gravel requires dust and impact resistance, roughness and waviness affect maximum tire speeds and tire pressures, so slower takeoff and landing speeds the less improved the runway, wing loading and stall speeds, etc.

The SkyCourier will be operating at larger airports than the Grand Caravan's, needing an additional 1,100 feet to take off at MTOW, the smaller stations will remain Caravan's. The Design basis is basically a twin Caravan, to similar standards. The design basis of all Cessna is good, but the Twin Otter family is clearly designed to handle far more rugged conditions. But that in turn makes the Otter family less efficient. Again, selecting the best plane for the route.

The SkyCourier in freighter configuration has a 6,000 lb payload in a 19,000 MTOW craft, payload is 31.5% of MTOW, Max cruise is 200 ktas, max range of 900 nm, 1,100 shp x 2 = 2,200 shp. Takeoff length at MTOW 3,300 ft. 8.63 # per avail HP 85% of the Grand Caravan.

The Grand Caravan EX which FedEX has many of in its fleet had a maximum payload of 3,190 lb, a MTOW of 8,807 lb, and a MLW of 8,500 lb, so payload is 36% of MTOW. Max cruise is 185 ktas and range of 912 nm, 867 shp power plant. Takeoff length at MTOW 2,160 feet. 10.15# per avail HP


https://cessna.txtav.com/en/turboprop/skycourier#specs
https://cessna.txtav.com/en/turboprop/grand-caravan-ex
 
2175301
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Re: Cessna SkyCourier Public Flying Demo Tomorrow at EAA Airventure Oshkosh

Fri Jul 30, 2021 6:52 am

WayexTDI wrote:
2175301 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Ah, the old belief that "only old things are good and new stuff is just throwaway crap"...
Before the Twin Otter became a proven aircraft, it was unproven; so is the SkyCourier... People need to live in the present and not the past.


Well... If you wish to put up a $6 Million SkyCourier and a crew willing to be stranded to prove the aircraft in the worst weather in the world... That's up to you. If your not, then your not. I don't think the companies operating in the Arctic will be interested in that test. A new Twin Otter 400 sells for essentially the same money, has modern engines, glass cockpit, etc, and has a worldwide support system. So its not like their is any advantage to the SkyCourier. I just don't see anyone willing to fund that testing to prove it. Why bother.

Also, it is my understanding that the Twin Otter is certified right now to carry 19 passengers in the USA, Canada, and most of the world. Cessna is saying that they will not even try to certify the SkyCourier for that unless they receive substantial market interest in that. It will be limited to 9 passengers for now.

So, in your opinion, untested = unreliable? Again, that's thinking in the past.
Cessna is no small shop and is backed by a huge conglomerate (Textron); unlike Viking Air. Cessna has the support network in place.
As far as testing in the artic, it's already done for airliners; Cessna can easily do it as well (and maybe already plan to).


You are missing most of my points... Arctic flying is by definition using improvised runways on ice, snow, etc. Also the Weather can be far worse than what ordinary aviation (and standard testing) plans for.

You just don't introduce a new aircraft into that segment without a lot of special testing.

I also think "JayinKitsap" pointed out an obvious difference. The SkyCourier will have been designed to take off and land on paved runways. The Twin Otter was designed for improvised and unimproved runways up front. It's inherently more rugged than conventional commercial aircraft.

There is a reason why in 2001, the Twin Otter was chosen as the only aircraft capable of performing an emergency evacuation flight of a critical patient from the South Pole under extreme -60-degree conditions.

https://www.vikingair.com/viking-aircra ... twin-otter

Somewhere on the internet is a several page write-up on the flight and why they considered that the Twin Otter was the only aircraft capable of doing the trip safely.

If the weather is better they fly DC-3's and now BT-67 turbo conversions of the DC-3 to the South Pole. The DC-3 having been built more like a tank in structure than a modern aircraft.

Just because someone builds a new aircraft does not mean it will find that all markets will use it; and that's a good thing. Try to make something a "jack of all trades" and it will be poor at everything. The SkyCourier is desiged to be 1st a freight arcraft operating off of runways. I'm sure that it will excel at that.

Note that other than arctic and float plane service I agreed long up-thread that the Sky-courier would displace some of the Twin Otter sales. I don't think that the SkyCourier will displace that many Twin Otter sales. The Twin Otter has its niche as well... and is very good in that niche.

Have a great day,
 
Noshow
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Re: Cessna SkyCourier Public Flying Demo Tomorrow at EAA Airventure Oshkosh

Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:02 am

One is a purpose tailored flying UPS truck and the other an all terrain 4x4 vehicle. What is the point in accusing each one of not being the other?
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Cessna SkyCourier Public Flying Demo Tomorrow at EAA Airventure Oshkosh

Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:59 pm

I expected more orders by now. This plane excites me and it should move into more niches. As already noted, Textron is everywhere for support. Now the BT-67 carries about twice the passengers and now has authorization to colder temperatures (but I couldn't find the link, I just have a friend that works in Antarctica and so is really interested for a non-aviation person in BT-67 capabilities). For really cold weather duty it takes decades to build up a reputation and aircraft to be available cheap, so I'm not sure why the discussion on that duty as that niche is far in the future for the Skycourier.

Are there any more sales campaigns going on? I'm not aware of any, but I wouldn't expect to hear about them until there was a sale... For island freight this just seems to be the natural aircraft. Single pilot ops will probably be the standard. To get this into duties of other old aircraft requires someone buying these and then selling them on to small operators. I had hoped for more sales by now as this is the closest to a DC-3 replacement I've seen (albeit, the BT-67 will continue on for cold weather passenger duty forever).

Lightsaber
 
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william
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Re: Cessna SkyCourier Public Flying Demo Tomorrow at EAA Airventure Oshkosh

Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:19 pm

If the FAA would approve single pilot 19 PAX operation, then this aircraft would be a hit in the US PAX market.
 
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NameOmitted
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Re: Cessna SkyCourier Public Flying Demo Tomorrow at EAA Airventure Oshkosh

Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:32 pm

I think it does a disservice to this aircraft and the discipline they showed in design to try and put it into all missions.

It's a delivery truck. It doesn't have all-wheel drive. It doesn't have off-road suspension. It does not have the maintenance complications that come with it.

It's got two of the most reliable engines out there, married to simple, uncomplicated props, controlled by off-the-shelf avionics.

It will do its mission without mission creep or design bloat. It appears to be a masterpiece of restraint.

Let it be so without asking it to be more.
 
FlyingElvii
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Re: Cessna SkyCourier Public Flying Demo Tomorrow at EAA Airventure Oshkosh

Fri Jul 30, 2021 2:21 pm

tjwgrr wrote:
Noshow wrote:
Many express freighters wait most of the day for their evening and early morning duties. It would make sense to have a combi version available to be used as a regional commuter during the daytime.


UPS tried that with a handful of their 727-100QCs on weekends from 1997-2001. Ended up not going too well.

UPS learned that boxes do not bitch about a 4-hour mechanical delay in Punta Cana, but passengers do, especially when they have a buddy working at CBS 60 Minutes TV show.

They decided soon after that the hit to Corporate Image wasn’t worth the minor amount of incremental income.
 
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alberchico
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Re: Cessna SkyCourier Public Flying Demo Tomorrow at EAA Airventure Oshkosh

Fri Jul 30, 2021 2:47 pm

william wrote:
If the FAA would approve single pilot 19 PAX operation, then this aircraft would be a hit in the US PAX market.


Why isn't the FAA comfortable with single pilot operations for a 19 seater ?
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Cessna SkyCourier Public Flying Demo Tomorrow at EAA Airventure Oshkosh

Fri Jul 30, 2021 3:11 pm

william wrote:
If the FAA would approve single pilot 19 PAX operation, then this aircraft would be a hit in the US PAX market.


Name some profitable markets that the revenue can support a $6 million plane and maybe $300,000 in minimal annual flight crew costs.
 
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william
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Re: Cessna SkyCourier Public Flying Demo Tomorrow at EAA Airventure Oshkosh

Fri Jul 30, 2021 3:16 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
william wrote:
If the FAA would approve single pilot 19 PAX operation, then this aircraft would be a hit in the US PAX market.


Name some profitable markets that the revenue can support a $6 million plane and maybe $300,000 in minimal annual flight crew costs.


First, no one is paying full price on an aircraft, especially big order and 2nd, I am sure operators of 9 pax aircraft would not mind more capability from their aircraft. For all we know such a certification may start a new market niche.
 
FlapOperator
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Re: Cessna SkyCourier Public Flying Demo Tomorrow at EAA Airventure Oshkosh

Fri Jul 30, 2021 3:48 pm

2175301 wrote:

I'm sure that the SkyCourier will do fine in normal or even bad winter weather. However, things get extreme in the arctic and the carriers who operate there prefer well proven aircraft to handle those extremes. It's not worth the gamble to use an unproven aircraft in such an environment. There have been multiple cases of where things were really bad at the North or South Pole regions that the Twin Otter was to airplane of choice for the mission because everyone knows it can get in and out - even if its parked outside in the arctic weather.


Honestly, lots of that was a function of the Kenn Borek crews, vice the airframe. They use the Twotter for all sorts of reasons, but those guys are the secret sauce, versus the airframe, and I say that as an unabashed DHC fanboi.
 
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FLALEFTY
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Re: Cessna SkyCourier Public Flying Demo Tomorrow at EAA Airventure Oshkosh

Fri Jul 30, 2021 3:55 pm

Here's a nice little report from Oshkosh concerning the SkyCourier's air show debut:

https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/ces ... ture-2021/
 
FlapOperator
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Re: Cessna SkyCourier Public Flying Demo Tomorrow at EAA Airventure Oshkosh

Fri Jul 30, 2021 3:56 pm

alberchico wrote:
william wrote:
If the FAA would approve single pilot 19 PAX operation, then this aircraft would be a hit in the US PAX market.


Why isn't the FAA comfortable with single pilot operations for a 19 seater ?


Because of the legal requirements of Part 91 vs. Part 135.

Most of this has been baked into the Code of Federal Regulations and is not quickly changed.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Cessna SkyCourier Public Flying Demo Tomorrow at EAA Airventure Oshkosh

Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:14 pm

william wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
william wrote:
If the FAA would approve single pilot 19 PAX operation, then this aircraft would be a hit in the US PAX market.


Name some profitable markets that the revenue can support a $6 million plane and maybe $300,000 in minimal annual flight crew costs.


First, no one is paying full price on an aircraft, especially big order and 2nd, I am sure operators of 9 pax aircraft would not mind more capability from their aircraft. For all we know such a certification may start a new market niche.


You’re ducking my question. Smaller operators, like Great Lakes, don’t having the buying power of FDX, but at $4 million, the lease payments would be around $40,000 per month. Name some potential city-pairs served by 9-seaters that would open to 19-seaters? In the US, which is the one big market that drives others.

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