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airlinepeanuts
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Bombardier CL 600 down near Truckee, California

Tue Jul 27, 2021 4:36 pm

Anyone have any info on this? Registration numbers?

Thoughts and prayers to the families of those lost on board.

https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/ ... 341486.php
 
kalvado
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Re: Bombardier CL 600 down near Truckee, California

Tue Jul 27, 2021 4:45 pm

 
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GCT64
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Re: Bombardier CL 600 down near Truckee, California

Tue Jul 27, 2021 4:56 pm

 
airlinepeanuts
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Re: Bombardier CL 600 down near Truckee, California

Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:08 pm

ATC audio seemed normal: https://youtu.be/Q34EwIXZGtM
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Bombardier CL 600 down near Truckee, California

Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:36 pm

Over at PPW, it looks like circling approach to 11; stalled during an overshooting turn to final. Viz was 4 miles in smoke and haze, likely tailwind during the final turn. Early production 605.
 
2eng2efficient
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Re: Bombardier CL 600 down near Truckee, California

Tue Jul 27, 2021 6:11 pm

First and foremost RIP to the victims.

It seems like the wildfire from the impact is small and contained, which is perhaps the only positive observation from this tragedy.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Bombardier CL 600 down near Truckee, California

Tue Jul 27, 2021 8:10 pm

Don't understand why they didn't just do the RNAV approach to 11 if they needed the length, which would have avoided the need for the circling approach which apparently induced the stall. Wondering whether this is gonna be another Teterboro.

The audio on the security video is remarkable.
 
N766UA
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Re: Bombardier CL 600 down near Truckee, California

Tue Jul 27, 2021 8:35 pm

wjcandee wrote:
Don't understand why they didn't just do the RNAV approach to 11 if they needed the length, which would have avoided the need for the circling approach which apparently induced the stall.


Wondering why a crew can't just fly the airplane? Circling approaches aren't a big deal. If that's actually what happened, there's 0 excuse for stalling an otherwise perfectly good jet.
 
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PixelPilot
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Re: Bombardier CL 600 down near Truckee, California

Tue Jul 27, 2021 8:36 pm

RIP to all the involved.
Interested to see what caused this.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Bombardier CL 600 down near Truckee, California

Tue Jul 27, 2021 10:18 pm

N766UA wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
Don't understand why they didn't just do the RNAV approach to 11 if they needed the length, which would have avoided the need for the circling approach which apparently induced the stall.


Wondering why a crew can't just fly the airplane? Circling approaches aren't a big deal. If that's actually what happened, there's 0 excuse for stalling an otherwise perfectly good jet.



No big deal? Just curious when was your last circling approach in a Cat D jet in mountainous terrain in 3 mile visibility?

Yes, the RNP to 11 makes much more sense, but again over at PPW the discussion is ATC was denying that approach to the previous crew who finally insisted long enough for ATC to issue it.
 
hivue
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Re: Bombardier CL 600 down near Truckee, California

Wed Jul 28, 2021 12:14 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
N766UA wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
Don't understand why they didn't just do the RNAV approach to 11 if they needed the length, which would have avoided the need for the circling approach which apparently induced the stall.


Wondering why a crew can't just fly the airplane? Circling approaches aren't a big deal. If that's actually what happened, there's 0 excuse for stalling an otherwise perfectly good jet.



No big deal? Just curious when was your last circling approach in a Cat D jet in mountainous terrain in 3 mile visibility?

Yes, the RNP to 11 makes much more sense, but again over at PPW the discussion is ATC was denying that approach to the previous crew who finally insisted long enough for ATC to issue it.


According to Blancolirio, consulting the approach plate for TRK, you aren't allowed to do the RNAV 20 approach into TRK in a category D aircraft.

Also, apparently the pilot would, if it had become necessary, have had to do the missed approach for 20, the runway he was doing the approach for. Perhaps that made him a little too eager to get the airplane on the ground on 11 on the first try despite having overshot the center line.
 
graceintheair
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Re: Bombardier CL 600 down near Truckee, California

Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:16 am

So sad to hear. It's just my opinion but it seems the FAA doesn't care about safety unless it's the airlines. While airline flying has gotten significantly safer over the decades, general aviation has not. Way too many accidents occurring. Why don't they address this?
 
wjcandee
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Re: Bombardier CL 600 down near Truckee, California

Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:22 am

hivue wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
N766UA wrote:

Circling approaches aren't a big deal..



No big deal? Just curious when was your last circling approach in a Cat D jet in mountainous terrain in 3 mile visibility?


According to Blancolirio, consulting the approach plate for TRK, you aren't allowed to do the RNAV 20 approach into TRK in a category D aircraft.


You can't do any RNAV approach into TRK in a category D aircraft.

However, it appears that the Challenger 605 is actually a Category C aircraft (as defined in 14 CFR Sec. 97.3), at least according to the FAA: http://fsims.faa.gov/wdocs/fsb/cl-604_605_650_rev_5.pdf (See Sec. 13.3 on p. 12 of that link.)

Of course, what GalaxyFlyer says about how challenging a circling approach is in mountainous terrain in smoke and haze in a Category D aircraft would be almost-equally applicable to a Category C aircraft.

There's a reason that Part 121 carriers generally don't do them.
 
93Sierra
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Re: Bombardier CL 600 down near Truckee, California

Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:40 am

wjcandee wrote:
hivue wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:


No big deal? Just curious when was your last circling approach in a Cat D jet in mountainous terrain in 3 mile visibility?


According to Blancolirio, consulting the approach plate for TRK, you aren't allowed to do the RNAV 20 approach into TRK in a category D aircraft.


You can't do any RNAV approach into TRK in a category D aircraft.

However, it appears that the Challenger 605 is actually a Category C aircraft (as defined in 14 CFR Sec. 97.3), at least according to the FAA: http://fsims.faa.gov/wdocs/fsb/cl-604_605_650_rev_5.pdf (See Sec. 13.3 on p. 12 of that link.)

Of course, what GalaxyFlyer says about how challenging a circling approach is in mountainous terrain in smoke and haze in a Category D aircraft would be almost-equally applicable to a Category C aircraft.

There's a reason that Part 121 carriers generally don't do them.


Wrong it’s a cat d for circling cat c for straight in
 
wjcandee
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Re: Bombardier CL 600 down near Truckee, California

Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:42 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Yes, the RNP to 11 makes much more sense, but again over at PPW the discussion is ATC was denying that approach to the previous crew who finally insisted long enough for ATC to issue it.


Controllers may have some 'splainin to do. It will be interesting to see if this circle-to-land was therefore foisted on this crew, although I didn't hear them discussing the alternative, and their ATC communications certainly seemed normal, even a little punchy. As Juan Brown points out, the right wing low just before impact when the aircraft had been in a left turn suggests a stall of the right wing while they were trying to maneuver at approach speed. These guys got bit hard, and, again, it sounds a bit like the Lear at Teterboro, where rather than go-around when the approach became unstable, after botching the circle-to-land such that the aircraft couldn't be aligned with the runway, the Captain instead tried to muscle it in without adequate airspeed for the manoevre, stalled, and crashed about 1 km from the runway.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Bombardier CL 600 down near Truckee, California

Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:47 am

Excellent commentary from Juan Brown as per usual. A good family friend of my grandparents was the fire chief in Truckee/Donner for many years way back when. Remember quite a few stories from him about responding to aircraft mishaps. There have always been a high number of accidents in the area, and this year TRK is not doing much better.

For anyone unfamiliar, here's the lay of the land. Gorgeous on a clear day, treacherous when not:

TRK seen from the NW:

Image

Photo source: Truckee Tahoe Airport

TRK area and Donner Lake seen from the west

Image

Photo source: Scott Shots https://scottshotsphoto.photoshelter.co ... rp6aWhbiv4
Last edited by Aaron747 on Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Bombardier CL 600 down near Truckee, California

Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:47 am

93Sierra wrote:
Wrong it’s a cat d for circling cat c for straight in


I appreciate the obnoxious "Wrong" at the beginning of your post. Normally, I just ignore everything else, but I'm willing to accept your statement, even though the cited document doesn't say one way or the other.

If correct, it sounds like all the more reason to have insisted on the RNAV 11 approach instead, given the hazy conditions and reports of near-zero visibility near the ground.
 
MO11
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Re: Bombardier CL 600 down near Truckee, California

Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:56 am

wjcandee wrote:
hivue wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:


No big deal? Just curious when was your last circling approach in a Cat D jet in mountainous terrain in 3 mile visibility?


According to Blancolirio, consulting the approach plate for TRK, you aren't allowed to do the RNAV 20 approach into TRK in a category D aircraft.


You can't do any RNAV approach into TRK in a category D aircraft.

However, it appears that the Challenger 605 is actually a Category C aircraft (as defined in 14 CFR Sec. 97.3), at least according to the FAA: http://fsims.faa.gov/wdocs/fsb/cl-604_605_650_rev_5.pdf (See Sec. 13.3 on p. 12 of that link.)



But the Challenger is a Category C for the straight-in approach minimum (1.3Vso = 137). If you circle above 140 kts, then you use the Category D minimum. The straight-in RNAV Rwy 11 would have been legal if not for the runway length.
 
F9Animal
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Re: Bombardier CL 600 down near Truckee, California

Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:46 am

So sad, and so thankful that plane didn't hit anyone on the ground. I assume this plane likey had a CVR?
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Bombardier CL 600 down near Truckee, California

Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:49 am

The crew was circling for an 11 landing, it’s the longer runway. Using 20 was where runway length was the problem. That said, I’ve taken the 300, the 605 and Globals into Hilton Head when it was 4200’. Admittedly, sea level airport.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Bombardier CL 600 down near Truckee, California

Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:52 am

F9Animal wrote:
So sad, and so thankful that plane didn't hit anyone on the ground. I assume this plane likey had a CVR?


Yes, digital FDR and CVR standard.
 
airlinepeanuts
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Re: Bombardier CL 600 down near Truckee, California

Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:19 am

I’ve seen conflicting reports as to whether 3 or 4 people were on board. 3 would suggest one pilot l, maybe throat had something to do with it?
 
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turbineseaplane
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Re: Bombardier CL 600 down near Truckee, California

Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:24 am

Four on board confirmed.
2 crew, 2 pax
 
cedarjet
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Re: Bombardier CL 600 down near Truckee, California

Wed Jul 28, 2021 7:19 am

airlinepeanuts wrote:
I’ve seen conflicting reports as to whether 3 or 4 people were on board. 3 would suggest one pilot l, maybe throat had something to do with it?

CL-600 is not a single pilot aircraft
 
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Aesma
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Re: Bombardier CL 600 down near Truckee, California

Wed Jul 28, 2021 8:57 am

graceintheair wrote:
So sad to hear. It's just my opinion but it seems the FAA doesn't care about safety unless it's the airlines. While airline flying has gotten significantly safer over the decades, general aviation has not. Way too many accidents occurring. Why don't they address this?


General aviation is a very broad brush. Here you have 2 professional pilots at the helm, not a rich guy flying on the week-ends, so the FAA should care more. Such accidents (involving professionals) are not that common, either.
 
CanukinUSA
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Re: Bombardier CL 600 down near Truckee, California

Wed Jul 28, 2021 11:55 am

[/quote]

But the Challenger is a Category C for the straight-in approach minimum (1.3Vso = 137). If you circle above 140 kts, then you use the Category D minimum. The straight-in RNAV Rwy 11 would have been legal if not for the runway length.[/quote]

Do you mean a straight-in RNAV Rwy 20 would have been legal if not for the runway length?
Both RNAV approaches are legal as far as I can tell. The landing on Runway 20 may not have been legal due to the available runway length depending on the regulations the aircraft was being operated under, probably either 14 CFR Part 135 or Part 91 and the aircraft landing weight. Part 135 would require landing within 60% of the available landing runway length. Part 91 may not require a safety factor depending on whether it was being operated under 91K or not. One would have to check the CL605 Aircraft Flight Manual landing distance to determine that.
The circling approach to Runway 11 from Runway 20 would only be legal if the aircraft could be safely maneuvered at speeds at or below 140 Knots (I.e. Category C). If the aircraft had to be maneuvered at speeds above 140 knots it would become a Category D aircraft and since Category D circling approaches as not approved for this airport and the RNAV (GPS) Runway 20 circling approach it would not be legal. That may likely depend on the aircraft landing weight at the time and the airspeed factors added for turning during the circling maneuvering in this case.
Whether it was wise in this situation is debatable. With the outcome obviously not. As one of my lawyer friends states “You do not want to be dead right.”
 
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JasonInRVA
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Re: Bombardier CL 600 down near Truckee, California

Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:23 pm

Longtime lurker -- registered an account here to share an additional video of the actual crash for those who are interested. The visibility is limited, but the aircraft can be observed impacting the canopy and the subsequent fireball is seen. I don't think this video is widespread at this point, but I'm sure it will be soon. https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMdv1yWmJ/
 
MO11
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Re: Bombardier CL 600 down near Truckee, California

Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:39 pm

CanukinUSA wrote:


Do you mean a straight-in RNAV Rwy 20 would have been legal if not for the runway length?

The circling approach to Runway 11 from Runway 20 would only be legal if the aircraft could be safely maneuvered at speeds at or below 140 Knots (I.e. Category C). If the aircraft had to be maneuvered at speeds above 140 knots it would become a Category D aircraft and since Category D circling approaches as not approved for this airport and the RNAV (GPS) Runway 20 circling approach it would not be legal. That may likely depend on the aircraft landing weight at the time and the airspeed factors added for turning during the circling maneuvering in this case.


Exactly.
 
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N14AZ
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Re: Bombardier CL 600 down near Truckee, California

Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:26 pm

The ASN-site has a video where you cannot see the crash but you can hear it: https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 20210726-1


R. I. P. to all victims
 
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Aquila3
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Re: Bombardier CL 600 down near Truckee, California

Wed Jul 28, 2021 3:01 pm

Very sad news, R.I.P. to the victims.
Since some here speak about a stall, doesn't the CL600 have any envelope protection?
Or were they already in a situation where it could not kick in?
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Bombardier CL 600 down near Truckee, California

Wed Jul 28, 2021 3:05 pm

No, it’s old school, pilot fly plane without any nannies to save him. The autothrottles will try to add thrust in the event of slow speed, but cannot overcome an attempt at stalling the plane. I’ve done min speed demos showing the autothrottles responding to an intentional approach to stall and still got the shaker briefly. Reef back on the yoke it’ll stall, no question.
 
N766UA
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Re: Bombardier CL 600 down near Truckee, California

Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:16 pm

93Sierra wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
hivue wrote:

According to Blancolirio, consulting the approach plate for TRK, you aren't allowed to do the RNAV 20 approach into TRK in a category D aircraft.


You can't do any RNAV approach into TRK in a category D aircraft.

However, it appears that the Challenger 605 is actually a Category C aircraft (as defined in 14 CFR Sec. 97.3), at least according to the FAA: http://fsims.faa.gov/wdocs/fsb/cl-604_605_650_rev_5.pdf (See Sec. 13.3 on p. 12 of that link.)

Of course, what GalaxyFlyer says about how challenging a circling approach is in mountainous terrain in smoke and haze in a Category D aircraft would be almost-equally applicable to a Category C aircraft.

There's a reason that Part 121 carriers generally don't do them.


Wrong it’s a cat d for circling cat c for straight in


The category is practically irrelevant. The real point is, again, if you can't fly the jet without stalling it, why are you accepting those conditions? Let's say it's cat D and this approach is next to impossibly difficult. Okay, cool, then *why* did they accept it?

It doesn't matter the last time I personally did a circling approach in a jet (we don't do circles in our operation, so the answer is "never") because the point is that you shouldn't be flying the airplane into situations you can't handle. Good airmanship requires not just good stick and rudder skills, but also solid decision making. It seems to me that *both* were lacking here.

And, full disclosure, I have a big problem with the accident rate in GA lately; I think it's completely unacceptable... hence my being so hard on these guys.
 
Capn
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Re: Bombardier CL 600 down near Truckee, California

Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:39 pm

Does anyone have the pilots names yet?
 
26point2
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Re: Bombardier CL 600 down near Truckee, California

Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:45 pm

I have been flying into TRK my entire career in everything from C-172 to Global Express…and several times in a CL-601 too. It’s a fine airport if the weather is good. Mountain weather and wind is unforgiving and it doesn’t take much for me to head to RNO instead. I must say I have never made an IFR approach into TRK….daytime severe clear is my minimum there. Anything less and we head straight to RNO. TRK has been closed to large aircraft like Global all summer due to runway maintenance so we ended up in RNO last weekend again but I’m certain I would have not attempted a TRK landing in 3SM FU While in RNO on Sunday there were many drop in arrivals at Atlantic Aviation after diverting from TRK due to low viz and smoke.

Also, there was a LR-35 crash at TRK about 15 years ago in similar circumstances. I believe strong wind was a factor in that one. Pilot overshot the turn to final, increased bank to try and line up on runway 28 and stalled. I happened to be riding my bicycle past the crash site a couple of weeks later. Wreckage was mostly removed but the smell of kerosene was strong. Sad.
Last edited by 26point2 on Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Bombardier CL 600 down near Truckee, California

Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:47 pm

There is no one “GA accident rate” because there are multiple areas of GA. from a new PPL flying a 152 to a professionally flown Gulfstream to a airline-like Net Jets to one of the finest military air show pilots crashing at Lewiston this past week.

True, the old saw about “superior pilot uses his superior judgement to avoid needing his superior skills” is for a reason. We don’t know from either recorders what went on in the last minutes of the flight. Was it an over-cooked high energy arrival, was it just a last moment tunnel vision trying to make a square corner, were the pilots very familiar with the type or the airfield or completely flummoxed?
 
airlinepeanuts
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Re: Bombardier CL 600 down near Truckee, California

Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:53 pm

26point2 wrote:
I have been flying into TRK my entire career in everything from C-172 to Global Express…and several times in a CL-601 too. It’s a fine airport if the weather is good. Mountain weather and wind is unforgiving and it doesn’t take much for me to head to RNO instead. I must say I have never made an IFR approach into TRK….daytime severe clear is my minimum there. Anything less and we head straight to RNO. TRK has been closed to large aircraft like Global all summer due to runway maintenance so we ended up in RNO last weekend again but I’m certain I would have not attempted a TRK landing in 3SM FU While in RNO on Sunday there were many drop in arrivals at Atlantic Aviation after diverting from TRK due to low viz and smoke.


Thanks for the personal insight. Stuff like this is what makes this site great.
 
N766UA
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Re: Bombardier CL 600 down near Truckee, California

Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:09 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
There is no one “GA accident rate” because there are multiple areas of GA. from a new PPL flying a 152 to a professionally flown Gulfstream to a airline-like Net Jets to one of the finest military air show pilots crashing at Lewiston this past week.

True, the old saw about “superior pilot uses his superior judgement to avoid needing his superior skills” is for a reason. We don’t know from either recorders what went on in the last minutes of the flight. Was it an over-cooked high energy arrival, was it just a last moment tunnel vision trying to make a square corner, were the pilots very familiar with the type or the airfield or completely flummoxed?


For my part, I’m referring to this type of operation: part 135 or part 91 turbojet and turboprop operators who generally fly with N numbered callsigns. Obviously netjets has a stellar safety record.

Aquila3 wrote:
Very sad news, R.I.P. to the victims.
Since some here speak about a stall, doesn't the CL600 have any envelope protection?y
Or were they already in a situation where it could not kick in?


The stall protection on a challenger is essentially just a stick pusher which, at that altitude (and presumably bank angle) isn’t gonna do anyone any good.
 
FlapOperator
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Re: Bombardier CL 600 down near Truckee, California

Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:46 pm

N766UA wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
Don't understand why they didn't just do the RNAV approach to 11 if they needed the length, which would have avoided the need for the circling approach which apparently induced the stall.


Wondering why a crew can't just fly the airplane? Circling approaches aren't a big deal. If that's actually what happened, there's 0 excuse for stalling an otherwise perfectly good jet.


How many circling approaches do you have in a supercritical wing with no LEDs in mountainous terrain?

At any operator I’ve worked at, this would be a special airport qualification/high risk operation.
 
N766UA
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Re: Bombardier CL 600 down near Truckee, California

Wed Jul 28, 2021 7:18 pm

FlapOperator wrote:
N766UA wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
Don't understand why they didn't just do the RNAV approach to 11 if they needed the length, which would have avoided the need for the circling approach which apparently induced the stall.


Wondering why a crew can't just fly the airplane? Circling approaches aren't a big deal. If that's actually what happened, there's 0 excuse for stalling an otherwise perfectly good jet.


How many circling approaches do you have in a supercritical wing with no LEDs in mountainous terrain?

At any operator I’ve worked at, this would be a special airport qualification/high risk operation.


How many do you have? In what way is that relevent here?

The question should be how many approaches THEY have in these conditions. Like you said, it’s a special airport… were they qualified and capable? Were they familiar? If they were within their limitations, this shouldn’t have been a big deal, and I maintain that. If you’re flying an airplane into a situation that is a “big deal,” potential problem, etc, you’ve done it wrong, and I really don’t get how “hey, it’s a difficult approach” is a potential excuse for crashing.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Bombardier CL 600 down near Truckee, California

Wed Jul 28, 2021 7:45 pm

N766UA wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
There is no one “GA accident rate” because there are multiple areas of GA. from a new PPL flying a 152 to a professionally flown Gulfstream to a airline-like Net Jets to one of the finest military air show pilots crashing at Lewiston this past week.

True, the old saw about “superior pilot uses his superior judgement to avoid needing his superior skills” is for a reason. We don’t know from either recorders what went on in the last minutes of the flight. Was it an over-cooked high energy arrival, was it just a last moment tunnel vision trying to make a square corner, were the pilots very familiar with the type or the airfield or completely flummoxed?


For my part, I’m referring to this type of operation: part 135 or part 91 turbojet and turboprop operators who generally fly with N numbered callsigns. Obviously netjets has a stellar safety record.

Aquila3 wrote:
Very sad news, R.I.P. to the victims.
Since some here speak about a stall, doesn't the CL600 have any envelope protection?y
Or were they already in a situation where it could not kick in?


The stall protection on a challenger is essentially just a stick pusher which, at that altitude (and presumably bank angle) isn’t gonna do anyone any good.


In 2018, NTSB showed 7 fatal hull loses causing 16 fatalities for P135 On demand operations.

https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/dat ... s2018.aspx

Of these types, Falcon 2000, 900, 7x, 8X, G280, G5 & 550, G650, CL300/350, Globals of all varieties, none had a fatal hull loss. Of the 800+ 604/605/650 in service, this is the third fatal hull loss. Turboprops, different story.
 
N766UA
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Re: Bombardier CL 600 down near Truckee, California

Wed Jul 28, 2021 8:24 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

In 2018, NTSB showed 7 fatal hull loses causing 16 fatalities for P135 On demand operations.

https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/dat ... s2018.aspx

Of these types, Falcon 2000, 900, 7x, 8X, G280, G5 & 550, G650, CL300/350, Globals of all varieties, none had a fatal hull loss. Of the 800+ 604/605/650 in service, this is the third fatal hull loss. Turboprops, different story.


Looking at 2012-2018, the fatal accident rate is pretty consistently 4 to 5 times that of part 121 carriers. Does Part 135 do 4 to 5 times as much flying as the airlines? Should we consider this rate to be acceptable?
 
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macsog6
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Re: Bombardier CL 600 down near Truckee, California

Wed Jul 28, 2021 8:47 pm

[quote="26point2"]It’s a fine airport if the weather is good. Mountain weather and wind is unforgiving and it doesn’t take much for me to head to RNO instead.


I too have flown into TRK many times and agree completely. If the weather is good, it is a great and scenic landing. If the wind is bad, or some other factor intervenes, it is off to RNO.
 
DiamondFlyer
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Re: Bombardier CL 600 down near Truckee, California

Wed Jul 28, 2021 9:42 pm

N766UA wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:

In 2018, NTSB showed 7 fatal hull loses causing 16 fatalities for P135 On demand operations.

https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/dat ... s2018.aspx

Of these types, Falcon 2000, 900, 7x, 8X, G280, G5 & 550, G650, CL300/350, Globals of all varieties, none had a fatal hull loss. Of the 800+ 604/605/650 in service, this is the third fatal hull loss. Turboprops, different story.


Looking at 2012-2018, the fatal accident rate is pretty consistently 4 to 5 times that of part 121 carriers. Does Part 135 do 4 to 5 times as much flying as the airlines? Should we consider this rate to be acceptable?


So your solution is to regulate it to 121 standards to get 121 safety? Quite simply, 135 has so many more moving pieces and variables that I’m surprised it’s only 4-5x higher.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Bombardier CL 600 down near Truckee, California

Wed Jul 28, 2021 9:50 pm

N766UA wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:

In 2018, NTSB showed 7 fatal hull loses causing 16 fatalities for P135 On demand operations.

https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/dat ... s2018.aspx

Of these types, Falcon 2000, 900, 7x, 8X, G280, G5 & 550, G650, CL300/350, Globals of all varieties, none had a fatal hull loss. Of the 800+ 604/605/650 in service, this is the third fatal hull loss. Turboprops, different story.


Looking at 2012-2018, the fatal accident rate is pretty consistently 4 to 5 times that of part 121 carriers. Does Part 135 do 4 to 5 times as much flying as the airlines? Should we consider this rate to be acceptable?


Apples to oranges, very different operations with very different risk analysis. What would if 121 accident rate be if you flew on-demand charters to any airport in the world? Without the resources of an airline.

Could it be better? Possibly. Are their differences between the best 91/135 operations and the worst ones? Yes, vastly greater than in P121. Does the FAA care? Likely not much from what I’ve seen; it’s much more up to the operator what level of safety that want. The best equal the 121; the worst are an embarrassment.

EDIT: Comparing 121 and 135 fatal accident rates per 100,000 hours in the link I posted; it’s about .16 vs. around .20 per 100,000 hours. Or am I missing something?
 
freakyrat
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Re: Bombardier CL 600 down near Truckee, California

Wed Jul 28, 2021 10:21 pm

It has now been confirmed by the Nevada County Sheriffs Office that there were six people on board all fatal.
https://www.kcra.com/article/death-toll ... h/37159638
 
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SuseJ772
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Re: Bombardier CL 600 down near Truckee, California

Wed Jul 28, 2021 10:55 pm

We wouldn’t have Part 121 without Part 135 and Part 91. It’s the necessary “evil” if you will that is the prerequisite for Part 121. Making Part 91 even LESS accessible will dry up the quality pilot pipeline even more than it already is. Also, given the type of aircraft flown, the type of airports flown into, and the experience of the pilots, I’d say the safety record is still pretty damn good.

(Also, don’t read into this saying all Part 135 is bad, or that everyone in Part 135 is just a stepping stone to 121. Only that without 91/135, you wouldn’t have 121)
 
wjcandee
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Re: Bombardier CL 600 down near Truckee, California

Wed Jul 28, 2021 11:23 pm

Let's not turn this thread into another Part 121/135/91 debate. This thread is about a specific accident, and the insights posted so far on that subject are amazing and helpful, the best of a.net. Let's stay on that topic.
 
wjcandee
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Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Bombardier CL 600 down near Truckee, California

Wed Jul 28, 2021 11:44 pm

JasonInRVA wrote:
...additional video of the actual crash for those who are interested. The visibility is limited, but the aircraft can be observed impacting the canopy and the subsequent fireball is seen.[...] https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMdv1yWmJ/


That tiktok video is remarkable. Looks about 50 degrees nose down; because of the nature of a Nest camera, hard to see whether it's wing-low or moving to the right.
 
wjcandee
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Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Bombardier CL 600 down near Truckee, California

Wed Jul 28, 2021 11:59 pm

Interesting that two days later, a lot of information hasn't appeared. I understand official sources withholding the information, but plainly by now, a lot of people know a lot of information that one would think would have made it into social media somewhere:
(1) Who owned/leased the aircraft? (Name of finance company tells us nothing.)
(2) Who operated the aircraft? Private/corporate/air-taxi? That would let us know what rules it was operating under.
(3) Pilot experience. Plainly, a lot of people knew who they were. Names are none of my business, but some insight into background and experience would be interesting.
 
FlapOperator
Posts: 221
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2021 4:07 pm

Re: Bombardier CL 600 down near Truckee, California

Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:23 am

N766UA wrote:
FlapOperator wrote:
N766UA wrote:

Wondering why a crew can't just fly the airplane? Circling approaches aren't a big deal. If that's actually what happened, there's 0 excuse for stalling an otherwise perfectly good jet.


How many circling approaches do you have in a supercritical wing with no LEDs in mountainous terrain?

At any operator I’ve worked at, this would be a special airport qualification/high risk operation.


How many do you have? In what way is that relevent here?

The question should be how many approaches THEY have in these conditions. Like you said, it’s a special airport… were they qualified and capable? Were they familiar? If they were within their limitations, this shouldn’t have been a big deal, and I maintain that. If you’re flying an airplane into a situation that is a “big deal,” potential problem, etc, you’ve done it wrong, and I really don’t get how “hey, it’s a difficult approach” is a potential excuse for crashing.


I’m interested in the basis for your probable cause claim as Crash/Fire/Rescue is still spatula’ing the pax and crew out of the airplane.

It appears you’ve no practical experience for what you claim, just your indignation as you sit at ground speed zero saying “crew to blame.”

So you’ve no real applicable experience.

I do. I have flown this approach in a variety of aircraft.

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