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Italianflyer
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AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:02 pm

According to CNBC the APA and APFA have filed grievances over lack of hotel availability for crews on overnight layovers. Interesting thing is I've heard about this issue from people working at several airlines. One friend from a different carrier said they have been in several situations where the hotel "accidentally" sold the block of rooms reserved for crew. Adding insult to injury, they had to use a travel website to book & pay for their own rooms. They were reimbursed promptly.. .but still.... this is pretty elementary stuff falling through the cracks.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/28/america ... laint.html
 
Cubsrule
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Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:09 pm

The only issue mentioned specifically in the article is the unexpected overnight at FCA (haven't they changed their IATA code?), and I'm not sure I understand why that one is grievable. If there are no rooms at a place where the crew isn't supposed to have to overnight, then there are no rooms.
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airlinepeanuts
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Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:12 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
The only issue mentioned specifically in the article is the unexpected overnight at FCA (haven't they changed their IATA code?), and I'm not sure I understand why that one is grievable. If there are no rooms at a place where the crew isn't supposed to have to overnight, then there are no rooms.


Yeah, I would imagine a place like FCA, which is close proximity to a national park, may have availability problems on a regular basis anyway, so I'm not surprised.
 
bigb
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Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:20 pm

We are having issues with Anchorage at my airline currently prompting creative pairings overnighting folks in PDX or SEA.
 
Italianflyer
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Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:41 pm

The FCA issue was listed as an example...a poor one at that (And I agree if it's not a normal night stop station then it's hardly surprising). But it goes on to say...

"The case was unusual but flight attendants have often arrived at destinations without lodging, face long waits for rooms and extensive hold times with crew lodging support, the union official said."

That implies, to me at least, that this is a widespread issue. And although anecdotal, I'm hearing about this from friends who fly for both mainline and regional carriers. And it has occurred in both smaller cities that are new to the network and larger cities that have been established for quite some time.

I have not worked in the hotel industry in 30 years. Back in the day, if we were overbooked and sold a guaranteed room, we had to "walk" the guests to a comparable property at our hotels expense. I would assume that's still the case; I don't understand why sometimes crew may be on their own covering lodging expenses. I certainly CAN understand how on a minimum layover, spending an hour or two dinking around with accommodations would cut into critical rest.
 
ScottB
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Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:44 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
The only issue mentioned specifically in the article is the unexpected overnight at FCA (haven't they changed their IATA code?), and I'm not sure I understand why that one is grievable. If there are no rooms at a place where the crew isn't supposed to have to overnight, then there are no rooms.


It's probably grievable if the contract doesn't have some sort of stipulation with regard to circumstances outside the airline's control; i.e. an unexpected stay due to weather in a location where there is absolutely zero availability. The airline is required to provide suitable accommodations overnight and while the reason for their failure to do so is understandable, that doesn't necessarily excuse them from their obligations under the contract.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:52 pm

ScottB wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
The only issue mentioned specifically in the article is the unexpected overnight at FCA (haven't they changed their IATA code?), and I'm not sure I understand why that one is grievable. If there are no rooms at a place where the crew isn't supposed to have to overnight, then there are no rooms.


It's probably grievable if the contract doesn't have some sort of stipulation with regard to circumstances outside the airline's control; i.e. an unexpected stay due to weather in a location where there is absolutely zero availability. The airline is required to provide suitable accommodations overnight and while the reason for their failure to do so is understandable, that doesn't necessarily excuse them from their obligations under the contract.


Impossibility is generally a defense to contract claims. But it is certainly poor planning on AA's part to send a crew who is going to have to overnight to a place with known hotel availability problems.
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MIflyer12
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Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:58 pm

There's a big difference between:

1. We don't have reservations for any of you.

2. We are oversold.

3. Having to wait in a long line for a room. (Really, at some point, who hasn't?)

4. Having to wait on hold for AA lodging support.

These issues conveniently get conflated in a grievance.
 
trueblew
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Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Wed Jul 28, 2021 3:29 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
There's a big difference between:

1. We don't have reservations for any of you.

2. We are oversold.

3. Having to wait in a long line for a room. (Really, at some point, who hasn't?)

4. Having to wait on hold for AA lodging support.

These issues conveniently get conflated in a grievance.


If the end result is the same then why are you troubled by this.

The end result will also be your flight will likely be delayed because the crew couldn't receive their required rest and you'd be conveniently upset with the airline.
 
usflyer msp
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Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Wed Jul 28, 2021 3:47 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
The only issue mentioned specifically in the article is the unexpected overnight at FCA (haven't they changed their IATA code?), and I'm not sure I understand why that one is grievable. If there are no rooms at a place where the crew isn't supposed to have to overnight, then there are no rooms.


I agree. I would need more specific examples to really make a judgement in this situation.

The FCA example is pretty weak. It was an unplanned overnight and all the hotels were full - what do they expect AA to do, waive a wand and magically make hotel rooms appear?

If AA has hotels booked and the hotel does not honor the booking, AA can follow up with the hotel and cancel their contract if it happens repeatedly but that is not going to help the crew in that moment. It sucks for the crew but there is only so much AA can do, especially if the other hotels are full.
 
travaz
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Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Wed Jul 28, 2021 3:48 pm

I have a few FA's that live near me and they have said that in some cases it's not the Airlines fault but the Hotel. The Airline has a guaranteed rate, which is often much lower than the "what the market will bear", So they went after the cash. The hotel did provide them with accommodations at a close by budget hotel that does not meet the requirements of the CBA. I made the mistake last week of not making any arrangements for an overnight driving trip and almost had to spend the night in my pick up. The hotel I finally got was pretty shabby and I hoped I didn't bring bed bugs home.
 
RR757
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Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Wed Jul 28, 2021 3:49 pm

I travel a fair amount and I have to book/pay for my own flight and hotel and then claim. Doesn’t bother me - I get the loyalty points from both for my leisure trips.
 
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Spacepope
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Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:00 pm

At least here in the west, it's like everyone has gone on vacation at the same time. Even camping spots are hard to come by and hotels appear to be booked solid. That AA or any company is having a tough time finding lodging is no big surprise at all.
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Varsity1
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Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:37 pm

I love how members can rationalize anything on here.

"crew shouldn't expect hotels to be booked for them, I have to book and pay for hotels at my job"

"crew shouldn't expect hotels to be available when it isn't the airlines fault"

"crews are being unreasonable to expect a hotel room when they arrive, waiting several hours into their 8 hour rest window is what I do at my job!"
 
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usdcaguy
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Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:40 pm

RR757 wrote:
I travel a fair amount and I have to book/pay for my own flight and hotel and then claim. Doesn’t bother me - I get the loyalty points from both for my leisure trips.


Unlike yourself, crews do NOT usually get loyalty points for their stays. They also do not get company cards, unlike what most people get while traveling. What we are talking about are lines and phone calls cutting into rest time. Today, most carriers will book their crews so tightly that any deviation from the scheduled rest time may result in a delay the next day or very little sleep for the crew. Do you really want your flight and cabin crews not up for the job of flying you around safely?
 
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Moose135
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Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:41 pm

RR757 wrote:
I travel a fair amount and I have to book/pay for my own flight and hotel and then claim. Doesn’t bother me - I get the loyalty points from both for my leisure trips.


Does your employment contract specify that your employer is supposed to book and pay for your rooms?
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Cubsrule
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Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:48 pm

usdcaguy wrote:
RR757 wrote:
I travel a fair amount and I have to book/pay for my own flight and hotel and then claim. Doesn’t bother me - I get the loyalty points from both for my leisure trips.


Unlike yourself, crews do NOT usually get loyalty points for their stays. They also do not get company cards, unlike what most people get while traveling. What we are talking about are lines and phone calls cutting into rest time. Today, most carriers will book their crews so tightly that any deviation from the scheduled rest time may result in a delay the next day or very little sleep for the crew. Do you really want your flight and cabin crews not up for the job of flying you around safely?


If there are issues with lines and phone calls cutting into rest time, it would be nice to know the circumstances of them. As I mentioned upthread, the FCA issue is the only one specifically cited in the article.
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lightsaber
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Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:05 pm

Spacepope wrote:
At least here in the west, it's like everyone has gone on vacation at the same time. Even camping spots are hard to come by and hotels appear to be booked solid. That AA or any company is having a tough time finding lodging is no big surprise at all.

And so many vacationers find they don't like camping and pay top dollar to get into a hotel. Hotel construction was almost halted for a year (reduced supply) as well as the entire USA on vacation (we can discuss if they should be).

I'm not surprised at a shortage of rooms. I hope this is resolved.

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william
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Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:36 pm

Hotels are barely operating now, especially mid tier and lower. The hotels are having a hard time hiring cleaners. They were laid off at the beginning of Covid and many have not or do not want to come back. And yes, the pay has been increased. Ran into this on last trip.
 
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Rookie87
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Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:50 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
I love how members can rationalize anything on here.

"crew shouldn't expect hotels to be booked for them, I have to book and pay for hotels at my job"

"crew shouldn't expect hotels to be available when it isn't the airlines fault"

"crews are being unreasonable to expect a hotel room when they arrive, waiting several hours into their 8 hour rest window is what I do at my job!"


Right? lol like what should the crew do? Sleep at the airport? Sleep on the plane, wake up and greet them the next day? lol
 
jetmatt777
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Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:02 pm

Rookie87 wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
I love how members can rationalize anything on here.

"crew shouldn't expect hotels to be booked for them, I have to book and pay for hotels at my job"

"crew shouldn't expect hotels to be available when it isn't the airlines fault"

"crews are being unreasonable to expect a hotel room when they arrive, waiting several hours into their 8 hour rest window is what I do at my job!"


Right? lol like what should the crew do? Sleep at the airport? Sleep on the plane, wake up and greet them the next day? lol


Which is exactly what happened to an OO flight that diverted to one of the Colorado towns just the other day. There were no rooms and the entire crew slept on the plane until the next morning.
 
ozark1
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Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:06 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
I love how members can rationalize anything on here.

"crew shouldn't expect hotels to be booked for them, I have to book and pay for hotels at my job"

"crew shouldn't expect hotels to be available when it isn't the airlines fault"

"crews are being unreasonable to expect a hotel room when they arrive, waiting several hours into their 8 hour rest window is what I do at my job!"

Agreed. An exception would be a city that the airline doesn’t normally fly to. At my former employer we would contact the hotel desk, a division of crew scheduling. I would say the large majority of the time they were able to find us lodging in a mainline station in cases of our original hotel being oversold for a convention, or construction in progress, etc. Most of the time we stayed in very nice places as well. I retired prior to the start of Covid. Everything came to a halt. If you ventured out and were brave enough to travel, you would probably get a really low price on a room. Now it’s just the opposite. A room at the Westin in downtown GSP cost me $130 a night over Christmas, which is off season, Now? How about over $400 a night.
Airlines and their unions have contracts with hotels that are made after inspections and comparisons to other overnight facilities. If you think that airline crews and their signed contracts have any weight in this current problem you would be mistaken. We were always at the bottom and the first to be displaced. Airlines want the cheapest cost possible while crews want the best hotel possible (also has a lot to do with proximity to restaurants and other places of entertainment). My own opinion is that everyone is now being gouged so the hotels and car rental companies can make up some losses.
After a long duty day, perhaps going through multiple time zones, and there ended up being no place to sleep, I would definitely grieve that. In LHR we have always had to wait a few hours for our rooms, but at least we knew we would end up getting one.
I can only speak of my experiences at AA. I understand that it has been very difficult to plan anything due to the continual fluctuation of events beyond their control. However they must get their s… together. They were frantic to try to get as many people to retire as possible ( I accepted) last May. Then, almost daily they paid flight attendants time and a half because they were short! Sorry, don’t mean to stray from the hotel topic.
I cannot stress enough the absolute necessity for crew rest. Fatigue is a huge issue that I think is just now being able to be more clearly understood. I went through 12 time zones on flights to PVG and NRT and PEK. 24 hours rest and then back through another 12. There is no doubt that it affected my overall health permanently.
I fully support the unions stance on the issue. No matter what city or how long the flight time is, the immense technology in a cockpit, and the stress in the cabin require as clear a mind as is possible. I wish them luck.
 
Vicenza
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Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:07 pm

trueblew wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
There's a big difference between:

1. We don't have reservations for any of you.

2. We are oversold.

3. Having to wait in a long line for a room. (Really, at some point, who hasn't?)

4. Having to wait on hold for AA lodging support.

These issues conveniently get conflated in a grievance.


If the end result is the same then why are you troubled by this.

The end result will also be your flight will likely be delayed because the crew couldn't receive their required rest and you'd be conveniently upset with the airline.


Do you feel the same way when airlines overbook flights, and with massive inconvenience to passengers, or does your 'end result' only apply to when it effects aircrew?
 
DualQual
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Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:08 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
Rookie87 wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
I love how members can rationalize anything on here.

"crew shouldn't expect hotels to be booked for them, I have to book and pay for hotels at my job"

"crew shouldn't expect hotels to be available when it isn't the airlines fault"

"crews are being unreasonable to expect a hotel room when they arrive, waiting several hours into their 8 hour rest window is what I do at my job!"


Right? lol like what should the crew do? Sleep at the airport? Sleep on the plane, wake up and greet them the next day? lol


Which is exactly what happened to an OO flight that diverted to one of the Colorado towns just the other day. There were no rooms and the entire crew slept on the plane until the next morning.


And subsequently should have refused any flying until having 8 hours uninterrupted rest behind the hotel door.
There's no known cure for stupid
 
jetmatt777
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Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:32 pm

DualQual wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:
Rookie87 wrote:

Right? lol like what should the crew do? Sleep at the airport? Sleep on the plane, wake up and greet them the next day? lol


Which is exactly what happened to an OO flight that diverted to one of the Colorado towns just the other day. There were no rooms and the entire crew slept on the plane until the next morning.


And subsequently should have refused any flying until having 8 hours uninterrupted rest behind the hotel door.


Agree 100%.
 
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Spacepope
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Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:37 pm

DualQual wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:
Rookie87 wrote:

Right? lol like what should the crew do? Sleep at the airport? Sleep on the plane, wake up and greet them the next day? lol


Which is exactly what happened to an OO flight that diverted to one of the Colorado towns just the other day. There were no rooms and the entire crew slept on the plane until the next morning.


And subsequently should have refused any flying until having 8 hours uninterrupted rest behind the hotel door.


I tend to agree with that.

Perhaps the airline industry should consider doing what the railroads learned a long time ago. Set up their own lodging and dining for crews.

You roll into any podunk town out west and find a nice newer hotel with a diner attached? Usually BNSF or its ilk has made that complex to house workers since the local free market doesn't or can't cater to them. I've stayed in them before. Very spartan, but comfy, clean and safe. Company of course always has priority in rooms though.

Wouldn't be difficult to develop on airport property, a sorta crew bunkhouse....
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SoCalFlyer
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Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:37 pm

Hotel issues are happening everywhere. Hotels are short staffed, and are having a hard time hiring people to come work. We waited almost 2hrs at check in for a hotel at 7pm because they didn't have enough staff to clean the rooms, and also it's rare now a days to see more than one person manning the front desk at times. Not trying to pass blame, but there are logistical issues everywhere right now. I wonder when it's going to balance out.
 
FlapOperator
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Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:39 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
There's a big difference between:

1. We don't have reservations for any of you.

2. We are oversold.

3. Having to wait in a long line for a room. (Really, at some point, who hasn't?)

4. Having to wait on hold for AA lodging support.

These issues conveniently get conflated in a grievance.


Laughable. Grievances are legal documents, and these issues are generally parsed to the specific contract non-compliant action, with the evidence presented there-in.

In addition, the company has benefited from the generally accepted “fly now, grieve later” legal expectation. So, most of the time, this is a clear oversight by the company looking for remedy.
 
FlapOperator
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Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:41 pm

RR757 wrote:
I travel a fair amount and I have to book/pay for my own flight and hotel and then claim. Doesn’t bother me - I get the loyalty points from both for my leisure trips.


When this has been offered to companies, they generally prefer the lower contract lodging rates, vs. any other arrangements.

Frankly, schedules change enough that managing your own hotels would be its own full time job.
 
FlapOperator
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Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:43 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
Rookie87 wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
I love how members can rationalize anything on here.

"crew shouldn't expect hotels to be booked for them, I have to book and pay for hotels at my job"

"crew shouldn't expect hotels to be available when it isn't the airlines fault"

"crews are being unreasonable to expect a hotel room when they arrive, waiting several hours into their 8 hour rest window is what I do at my job!"


Right? lol like what should the crew do? Sleep at the airport? Sleep on the plane, wake up and greet them the next day? lol


Which is exactly what happened to an OO flight that diverted to one of the Colorado towns just the other day. There were no rooms and the entire crew slept on the plane until the next morning.


I hope they went to hotel and got rest or they were in violation of 91.3 by any reading of the document.
 
jetmatt777
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Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:50 pm

FlapOperator wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:
Rookie87 wrote:

Right? lol like what should the crew do? Sleep at the airport? Sleep on the plane, wake up and greet them the next day? lol


Which is exactly what happened to an OO flight that diverted to one of the Colorado towns just the other day. There were no rooms and the entire crew slept on the plane until the next morning.


I hope they went to hotel and got rest or they were in violation of 91.3 by any reading of the document.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.busine ... 21-7%3famp
 
FlapOperator
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Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:57 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
FlapOperator wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:

Which is exactly what happened to an OO flight that diverted to one of the Colorado towns just the other day. There were no rooms and the entire crew slept on the plane until the next morning.


I hope they went to hotel and got rest or they were in violation of 91.3 by any reading of the document.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.busine ... 21-7%3famp


I don’t doubt it for a moment. I’ve heard the same occurring to WN crews as well.

However, the FAA recognizes only “in rest” and “duty” for crew rest purposes. Sleeping on the airplane outside of designated for purpose crew rest areas is not rest. It is duty.
 
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Rajahdhani
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Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Wed Jul 28, 2021 7:37 pm

Let's deal in facts:

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/28/american-airlines-flight-attendant-union-summer-travel-complaint.html
On July 17, several American Airlines’ flight attendants stayed overnight on cots at Glacier Park International Airport in Montana after flight delays led crews to reach their legal limits on work for the day, according to the union and airline.
There weren’t enough available hotel rooms in the popular tourist destination, a union official said. The crew was originally supposed to return to their New York base on the same day.
The airline searched for hotel options as far as three hours away but there was no availability that night, which coincided with a large music festival, according to American. A spokeswoman said that the incident was an “anomaly” and that the company is working to prevent it from happening again.
Earlier this week, American told flight crews they could use an app to try to rebook themselves because of long waits to book hotels because of “irregular operations” in the network, according to a memo, which was reviewed by CNBC.


So, per reporting - a delay, led to a crew having to overnight at a city. Said city, in the throws of a Music festival, and not planning for an, unplanned crew. The hotels, busy handling their other responsibilities could not make themselves available to the airline (and I get that as well, hotel managers are, after all - there to manage the hotel, not only the airline's or the crew's unplanned delays), and so crew accommodations advised them do the right thing - to call and see if they could find accommodation on their own, while they too looked (and ran their contracted partners in the area). While I understand the predicament, comparatively, AA's crew accommodation has proven easier to work with, than other major carriers (...and perhaps unintentionally, as I can say that they do rely on a Sabre based/supported search system which many of the other carriers do not have as much access to parallel/competing systems - considering the unique nature of AA and Sabre's relative relationship). From the perspective of a partner, even the payment options make it easier to handle (as they can essentially be handled as many other pre-paid reservations - and hotels deal with them akin to any other pre-paid reservations save for incidentals/key needs), and easier to work with the crew with (as less will be required of them upon arrival).

In a situation where capacity on the hotel side is limited, the hotel may not have rooms that 'should' be used by crew (many contracts with the individual hotels have stipulations such as noise requirements/hotel amenities offered/services available) - for the entire crew. That said, in an emergency, the crew might choose to overlook certain issues (case in point, the hotel does not have a shuttle available to get the crew back to the airport at their time in the morning), speak with crew accommodation/hotel/self and, make the determination to pay for the cab back to the airport, but stay at the hotel anyway (because of location or availability). In many ways, splitting the crew (pilots at one, FAs at another) - or in some cities, where the length of the layover (and amenities requested/offered in the contract) places crews at specific hotels - giving the individual crew the ability to also work on a solution not only limits time wasted, but helps the crew better judge the issues/accomodations/conditions for themselves. Having to relay via crew accommodations can take hours - and something to consider, that crew accommodations may well be dealing with their own major issues (i.e. dealing with multiple delays themselves - worst case scenario - delays through/to a hub). In a crisis, the same systems that normally and well handle most of the usual stays/requests - could hamper solutions because of terms, and misinterpretations. The key here is to see the needs of each group (hotel - payment, crew accommodations - information, approvals, communication, crew - time, safety, and accommodations) and work with each, as best and as expeditiously as possible. Having as many allies (minds) as possible is a great tool in these cases/events, as unusual a request as unusual as the events themselves. The systems work the vast majority of the time, but when it doesn't, and time is against you - having more options for help, becomes your savior.

It's hard to understand as a passenger/guest - but the only way through it is patience and poise - and that falls against a crew, who is out of time. The smile of the hotelier, is polished over dealign with these issues often, consciously and well. In that way, with hotel rooms evaporating by the minute - instead of having to communicate that back to crew accommodations, to then get them to communicate that back to the hotel's management/sales team/contract manager, during a music festival - jeopardizes the availability of the rooms. I can see how/where they too are limited - empowering the crews in a crisis, helps empower those most affected, and likely most able to correct/provide a solution.

https://www.sabre.com/insights/releases/sabre-travel-network-and-expedia-announce-multi-year-agreement/Sabre Travel Network, a Sabre Holdings company, provides access to the
world’s leading global distribution system (GDS) enabling agents at more than
53,000 agency locations worldwide to be travel experts. The Sabre GDS, the
first system to connect the buyers and sellers of travel, today includes more
than 400 airlines, approximately 60,000 hotels, 41 car rental companies, nine
cruise lines, 35 railroads and 220 tour operators. Key brands of Sabre Travel
Network include GetThere, the leading Web-based corporate travel reservation
technology, and Jurni Network, the unique leisure travel agency consortium
that enables members to sell more products from preferred travel suppliers
using sophisticated market intelligence.


Something to consider, would be that AA already has programs in place, to assist passengers, and perhaps enhancements to assist crews (again, not the same thing, and with different needs et al) might work well, and not have to re-create the wheel. Once more, though - the point is moot, when the limit (hotel availability) is out of their control.

https://thepointsguy.com/news/aa-rolls-out-digital-voucher-system-for-hotels-meals-and-transportation/
https://thepointsguy.com/news/aa-rolls-out-digital-voucher-system-for-hotels-meals-and-transportation/
TPG confirmed Saturday that American Airlines is launching a new “Hotel, Meal and Transportation” system (HMT) for passengers who experience irregular operations. The program will use digital technology to replace paper vouchers for hotels and meals in cases of delay, allowing customer service agents to distribute vouchers via passenger email address. When customers activate the digital vouchers, the HMT system interfaces directly with hotel databases to find real-time availability, and will return canceled or unused rooms directly to the hotel’s inventory.


In this case, and while we may not see it that way - the crew likely got better rest at the airport, than at the/any hotel. Good luck trying to get rest, in the middle of a Music festival. Imagine being a crew, with a reserved room - at a sold out hotel, and a 'music festival' crowd as other guests. What happened when the rest of that crew member, is disturbed? Past the commonality of overselling, we're in the same boat of limited capacity. If you had a great stay, thank your underpaid, and overworked hotel staff for the lack of issues.
 
bigb
Posts: 1415
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 4:30 pm

Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Wed Jul 28, 2021 9:25 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
I love how members can rationalize anything on here.

"crew shouldn't expect hotels to be booked for them, I have to book and pay for hotels at my job"

"crew shouldn't expect hotels to be available when it isn't the airlines fault"

"crews are being unreasonable to expect a hotel room when they arrive, waiting several hours into their 8 hour rest window is what I do at my job!"


Did you expect anything different from the Anet crowd?
 
usflyer msp
Posts: 4292
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 11:50 am

Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Wed Jul 28, 2021 9:47 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
I love how members can rationalize anything on here.

"crew shouldn't expect hotels to be booked for them, I have to book and pay for hotels at my job"

"crew shouldn't expect hotels to be available when it isn't the airlines fault"

"crews are being unreasonable to expect a hotel room when they arrive, waiting several hours into their 8 hour rest window is what I do at my job!"


No one is rationalizing anything - we are living in the real world.
The airline doesn't own hotels and can't magically make some appear when there are none.
If the airline done have rooms reserved and the hotel does not honor the booking, there is little AA can do other than not book that hotel in the future.
It is a terrible situation for the crews and I'm sure no one in AA's management nor the Unions is happy about it but it is what it is.
 
Prost
Posts: 2654
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Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Wed Jul 28, 2021 10:14 pm

If the crew didn’t get adequate sleep I hope they notified scheduling that they felt they couldn’t operate safely.
 
Caspian27
Posts: 240
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2005 3:48 am

Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Wed Jul 28, 2021 10:44 pm

I’ve had several issues in ANC as well where rooms weren’t available for several hours and no other hotels had rooms available as well.

Last time I laid over in KOA the contracted van driver that took us to the hotel said he flew in from Oahu that day because no one wanted to drive on the big island anymore. Sure enough, the contracted van just didn’t show up the next day. No notification to the airline and no one even answered their phone as I tried them myself. Say what you will, but this is a problem all over in every service industry right now. Hotels, restaurants, ground transportation, etc.
Meanwhile, somewhere 35,000 ft above your head...
 
TW870
Posts: 1353
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:01 am

Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Wed Jul 28, 2021 10:49 pm

I think the reason this thread is full of speculation and incomplete information is because the CNBC article is unspecific about what the actual grievance is.

I will give my take as a former flight attendant union rep.

The article alludes to very different scenarios:

1. Hotel rooms unavailable for unscheduled layovers due to IROPS, and crews have to sleep at the airport on cots or aboard aircraft. In this case, the crew would be on continuous "duty" as per the contract, and would not be legal for any flight the following day. The airline would need to either eventually find hotel rooms to get the crew rest, or deadhead the crew home and cancel/reassign any flying they were supposed to do. They would also need to pay the crew for continuous duty in alignment with the contractual duty ratios-in-guarantee. There would not be a grievance here if they did all this.

2. Hotel rooms are significantly delayed due either to unscheduled layovers or hotel error. In this case, most airline contracts require the airline to find a safe, clean, comfortable room in a certain amount of time. Crews are counted as on duty until they are inside of the new room, which may result in delay or cancellation of outbounds. A grievance would occur if the airline is regularly deviating from the language outlined in the contract. If the airline's scheduling department is understaffed in such a way that crews are regularly on hours long holds during hotel irregularities, then the union can grieve what they see as a systemic problem. A neutral arbitrator decides who is correct.

No one is saying that rooms should appear "out of thin air". If there are no rooms, the crew sleeps at the airport or on the plane. You cancel/reassign the outbounds, deadhead the crew home, and pay them for their time. If the crew works flights after sleeping at the airport, then both they and the airline have violated the FARs.

Hope this helps!
 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 5202
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:30 am

Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Wed Jul 28, 2021 10:57 pm

Overselling hotel rooms is SOP just like it is for airlines. Funny people would defend the airlines to death but when hotels do the same EXACT thing it's a crime LOL

Flight crews with delays are probably some of the last people to check in and most likely to no show. Flight crews are VERY frequent no shows for hotels, I used to work in a hotel. Flight gets cancelled and the crew doesn't show. Just like the airlines if you are last to check in and they are oversold the crew will be SOL. Many hotel owners lost alot during covid and are not gonna oversell.

Most of these cress without rooms are situations where it's a popular tourist market and there just are not hotel rooms. It's often a flight cancel or diversion etc
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2650
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:14 am

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
Overselling hotel rooms is SOP just like it is for airlines. Funny people would defend the airlines to death but when hotels do the same EXACT thing it's a crime LOL

Flight crews with delays are probably some of the last people to check in and most likely to no show. Flight crews are VERY frequent no shows for hotels, I used to work in a hotel. Flight gets cancelled and the crew doesn't show. Just like the airlines if you are last to check in and they are oversold the crew will be SOL. Many hotel owners lost alot during covid and are not gonna oversell.

Most of these cress without rooms are situations where it's a popular tourist market and there just are not hotel rooms. It's often a flight cancel or diversion etc

It’s not the flight crews responsibility to notify the hotel if a flight is canceled or delayed, it’s the airline’s responsibility.
 
DLASFlyer
Posts: 351
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 4:06 pm

Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:26 am

The hotel industry is a dumpster fire right now. I recently had a nightmare experience at a Hyatt property that was oversold. Prepaid reservation, 11:00 at night and they dumped me to the street with nowhere to sleep. This happened to be the Alaska Airlines crew hotel in BOI. The whole town was sold out with the closest available room 3 hours away. They refused to offer any compensation and told me to dispute the charge on my credit card! In all my years of travel, I had never experienced an oversold hotel that could not offer any alternatives.
 
airlinepeanuts
Posts: 167
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 4:16 pm

Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:29 am

Boof02671 wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
Overselling hotel rooms is SOP just like it is for airlines. Funny people would defend the airlines to death but when hotels do the same EXACT thing it's a crime LOL

Flight crews with delays are probably some of the last people to check in and most likely to no show. Flight crews are VERY frequent no shows for hotels, I used to work in a hotel. Flight gets cancelled and the crew doesn't show. Just like the airlines if you are last to check in and they are oversold the crew will be SOL. Many hotel owners lost alot during covid and are not gonna oversell.

Most of these cress without rooms are situations where it's a popular tourist market and there just are not hotel rooms. It's often a flight cancel or diversion etc

It’s not the flight crews responsibility to notify the hotel if a flight is canceled or delayed, it’s the airline’s responsibility.


Typically they just have blocks of rooms that go used or unused so a flight timing should have no bearing on availability, right?
 
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N62NA
Posts: 4534
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2003 1:05 am

Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Thu Jul 29, 2021 2:05 am

If the crew were timed out and couldn't do the return to NYC, wouldn't AA have known that prior to the flight leaving NYC for FCA? If it was known that the crew would need to overnight at FCA, hotel rooms should have been secured before allowing the flight to leave NYC, no?
 
rbavfan
Posts: 3833
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Thu Jul 29, 2021 2:28 am

Varsity1 wrote:
I love how members can rationalize anything on here.

"crew shouldn't expect hotels to be booked for them, I have to book and pay for hotels at my job"

"crew shouldn't expect hotels to be available when it isn't the airlines fault"

"crews are being unreasonable to expect a hotel room when they arrive, waiting several hours into their 8 hour rest window is what I do at my job!"


Just ask them does your job require you to be fully alert on your feet all day or do you just sit on your...... all day
 
TW870
Posts: 1353
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:01 am

Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Thu Jul 29, 2021 2:38 am

N62NA wrote:
If the crew were timed out and couldn't do the return to NYC, wouldn't AA have known that prior to the flight leaving NYC for FCA? If it was known that the crew would need to overnight at FCA, hotel rooms should have been secured before allowing the flight to leave NYC, no?


I wish that is how it worked, but it does not. There is just not that much staffing in operations to start researching hotels when a crew gets tight on duty. Instead, and especially with flight attendants, the company often pressures you to waive your duty time limitations and to operate the return trip regardless of how long you had been on your feet. I remember once when I worked for UA operating a trip that was supposed to be SFO-BOS-IAD on a 757. We were 3 hours late out of SFO and went over duty in BOS. The supervisor was very aggressive with us trying to force us to operate to DC and yelling about the stranded passengers from the cancelled flight. Safety is safety, and rules are rules, and my crew held our ground.
 
usflyer msp
Posts: 4292
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 11:50 am

Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Thu Jul 29, 2021 2:47 am

N62NA wrote:
If the crew were timed out and couldn't do the return to NYC, wouldn't AA have known that prior to the flight leaving NYC for FCA? If it was known that the crew would need to overnight at FCA, hotel rooms should have been secured before allowing the flight to leave NYC, no?


Looks like the outbound flight and turn took longer than expected and the pilots timed out while taxiing out for takeoff. The passengers had to sleep in the airport as well.

https://twitter.com/sethporges/status/1 ... 61410?s=19
 
CobaltScar
Posts: 837
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:30 pm

Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Thu Jul 29, 2021 3:00 am

Spacepope wrote:
DualQual wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:

Which is exactly what happened to an OO flight that diverted to one of the Colorado towns just the other day. There were no rooms and the entire crew slept on the plane until the next morning.


And subsequently should have refused any flying until having 8 hours uninterrupted rest behind the hotel door.


I tend to agree with that.

Perhaps the airline industry should consider doing what the railroads learned a long time ago. Set up their own lodging and dining for crews.

You roll into any podunk town out west and find a nice newer hotel with a diner attached? Usually BNSF or its ilk has made that complex to house workers since the local free market doesn't or can't cater to them. I've stayed in them before. Very spartan, but comfy, clean and safe. Company of course always has priority in rooms though.

Wouldn't be difficult to develop on airport property, a sorta crew bunkhouse....


Some places have just that. I think there is a hotel in Detroit that is owned by Delta.
 
User avatar
IceCream
Posts: 145
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:46 pm

Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Thu Jul 29, 2021 3:01 am

I feel for the FA's and pilots. This isn't their fault and at the end of the day the airline has to find proper accommodation for them if they want them to service flights the following morning/day.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 8902
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Thu Jul 29, 2021 3:26 am

I guess I'm not really surprised.......the hotel / lodging situation in some of these mountain resort / national park towns is absolutely insane during peak summer.
10x worse this year with the crush of tourists even worse than usual this year and lack of employees/staff.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 2377
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Thu Jul 29, 2021 3:29 am

Boof02671 wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
Overselling hotel rooms is SOP just like it is for airlines. Funny people would defend the airlines to death but when hotels do the same EXACT thing it's a crime LOL

Flight crews with delays are probably some of the last people to check in and most likely to no show. Flight crews are VERY frequent no shows for hotels, I used to work in a hotel. Flight gets cancelled and the crew doesn't show. Just like the airlines if you are last to check in and they are oversold the crew will be SOL. Many hotel owners lost alot during covid and are not gonna oversell.

Most of these cress without rooms are situations where it's a popular tourist market and there just are not hotel rooms. It's often a flight cancel or diversion etc

It’s not the flight crews responsibility to notify the hotel if a flight is canceled or delayed, it’s the airline’s responsibility.

Is it the airline's responsibility if all the hotel rooms in a "reasonable" radius are all occupied and none available?

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