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FLDude
Posts: 45
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Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Thu Jul 29, 2021 3:39 am

CobaltScar wrote:
Spacepope wrote:
DualQual wrote:

And subsequently should have refused any flying until having 8 hours uninterrupted rest behind the hotel door.


I tend to agree with that.

Perhaps the airline industry should consider doing what the railroads learned a long time ago. Set up their own lodging and dining for crews.

You roll into any podunk town out west and find a nice newer hotel with a diner attached? Usually BNSF or its ilk has made that complex to house workers since the local free market doesn't or can't cater to them. I've stayed in them before. Very spartan, but comfy, clean and safe. Company of course always has priority in rooms though.

Wouldn't be difficult to develop on airport property, a sorta crew bunkhouse....


Some places have just that. I think there is a hotel in Detroit that is owned by Delta.


I think FedEx has something like that in MEM.
 
ASFlyer
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Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Thu Jul 29, 2021 4:45 am

WayexTDI wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
Overselling hotel rooms is SOP just like it is for airlines. Funny people would defend the airlines to death but when hotels do the same EXACT thing it's a crime LOL

Flight crews with delays are probably some of the last people to check in and most likely to no show. Flight crews are VERY frequent no shows for hotels, I used to work in a hotel. Flight gets cancelled and the crew doesn't show. Just like the airlines if you are last to check in and they are oversold the crew will be SOL. Many hotel owners lost alot during covid and are not gonna oversell.

Most of these cress without rooms are situations where it's a popular tourist market and there just are not hotel rooms. It's often a flight cancel or diversion etc

It’s not the flight crews responsibility to notify the hotel if a flight is canceled or delayed, it’s t
he airline’s responsibility.

Is it the airline's responsibility if all the hotel rooms in a "reasonable" radius are all occupied and none available?


Yes, in fact, per the contracts the airlines agree to with their work groups, it IS the airlines responsibility to find hotel accommodations for overnight stays.
 
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DL757NYC
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Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Thu Jul 29, 2021 4:58 am

RR757 wrote:
I travel a fair amount and I have to book/pay for my own flight and hotel and then claim. Doesn’t bother me - I get the loyalty points from both for my leisure trips.



One of the most ignorant comments I’ve ever seen.
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Thu Jul 29, 2021 5:51 am

Rest is clearly defined in the contract and FAR 117 for pilots. It’s 10 hours behind the door 8 hours uninterrupted. Until I get that I’m not moving an airplane.

If I have to sleep on the plane I will but I’m not working again until I get 10 hours behind a hotel door period end of story.
 
usflyer msp
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Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:02 am

CriticalPoint wrote:
Rest is clearly defined in the contract and FAR 117 for pilots. It’s 10 hours behind the door 8 hours uninterrupted. Until I get that I’m not moving an airplane.

If I have to sleep on the plane I will but I’m not working again until I get 10 hours behind a hotel door period end of story.


BTW, I do agree with this. I don't think it is AA's fault that there are no hotel rooms available but that doesn't give them carte blanche to violate FAR's.
They will have to deadhead a new crew in or delay the flight until a hotel room and required rest regulations are satisfied.
 
kalvado
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Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Thu Jul 29, 2021 8:56 am

usflyer msp wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
Rest is clearly defined in the contract and FAR 117 for pilots. It’s 10 hours behind the door 8 hours uninterrupted. Until I get that I’m not moving an airplane.

If I have to sleep on the plane I will but I’m not working again until I get 10 hours behind a hotel door period end of story.


BTW, I do agree with this. I don't think it is AA's fault that there are no hotel rooms available but that doesn't give them carte blanche to violate FAR's.
They will have to deadhead a new crew in or delay the flight until a hotel room and required rest regulations are satisfied.

There is no mention of crew forced to operate outside of legal limit, so most likely that didn't happen. Otherwise, that would be the headline.
Still suck for the crew to sleep in the airport, but looks like there was no good options here, only bad ones.
 
blackbriar17
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Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Thu Jul 29, 2021 9:36 am

Reading a CNBC article is not the same as reading the grievance, and the few examples given do not tell the whole story.
The "hotel desk" was outsourced by AA management to a contractor and it has been a fiasco from day 1. Our own people did a great job for us and we rarely had the kinds of problems that are now routine. Long wait times, inexperienced and poorly trained personnel and a smug, dismissive attitude from Aa management about the problems have led to this grievance.
 
N312RC
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Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Thu Jul 29, 2021 11:35 am

bigb wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
I love how members can rationalize anything on here.

"crew shouldn't expect hotels to be booked for them, I have to book and pay for hotels at my job"

"crew shouldn't expect hotels to be available when it isn't the airlines fault"

"crews are being unreasonable to expect a hotel room when they arrive, waiting several hours into their 8 hour rest window is what I do at my job!"


Did you expect anything different from the Anet crowd?


I was going to say the same thing. Anet’s favorite pastime is to disparage airlines and airline employees!
 
kalvado
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Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:00 pm

blackbriar17 wrote:
Reading a CNBC article is not the same as reading the grievance, and the few examples given do not tell the whole story.
The "hotel desk" was outsourced by AA management to a contractor and it has been a fiasco from day 1. Our own people did a great job for us and we rarely had the kinds of problems that are now routine. Long wait times, inexperienced and poorly trained personnel and a smug, dismissive attitude from Aa management about the problems have led to this grievance.

That is easily believeable.
Problem of quasi-sensational articles is that they take one particular case and try building on that. However shit happens, and nobody is immune to that.
Union grievance probably has some statistics about how these mishaps became more frequent, and that is a more telling thing - but modern journalist is unable to understand such complicated issues, so let's make a story of one case!
 
WayexTDI
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Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:40 pm

ASFlyer wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
It’s not the flight crews responsibility to notify the hotel if a flight is canceled or delayed, it’s t
he airline’s responsibility.

Is it the airline's responsibility if all the hotel rooms in a "reasonable" radius are all occupied and none available?


Yes, in fact, per the contracts the airlines agree to with their work groups, it IS the airlines responsibility to find hotel accommodations for overnight stays.

So, the airline is responsible for the hotels failures or overselling?
The airline need to correct the problem (maybe by suing the hotels, that's up to them); but saying the airline is at fault because of the hotels actions is a stretch too far.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:41 pm

DL757NYC wrote:
RR757 wrote:
I travel a fair amount and I have to book/pay for my own flight and hotel and then claim. Doesn’t bother me - I get the loyalty points from both for my leisure trips.



One of the most ignorant comments I’ve ever seen.

It's not ignorant, it's real life.
 
WA707atMSP
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Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:47 pm

FLDude wrote:
CobaltScar wrote:
Spacepope wrote:

I tend to agree with that.

Perhaps the airline industry should consider doing what the railroads learned a long time ago. Set up their own lodging and dining for crews.

You roll into any podunk town out west and find a nice newer hotel with a diner attached? Usually BNSF or its ilk has made that complex to house workers since the local free market doesn't or can't cater to them. I've stayed in them before. Very spartan, but comfy, clean and safe. Company of course always has priority in rooms though.

Wouldn't be difficult to develop on airport property, a sorta crew bunkhouse....


Some places have just that. I think there is a hotel in Detroit that is owned by Delta.


I think FedEx has something like that in MEM.


The airline industry tried doing this in the 1960s.

Pan Am, American, and Air France each founded hotel chains (Intercontinental, Americana, and Meridien) to give their crews and passengers places to stay. TWA purchased the international division of Hilton, and United bought Western International (now Westin), for the same reason. Other airlines, like Northwest, Eastern, SAS, and Swissair, owned individual hotels in cities where they had a large presence.

However, the airlines discovered that when the economy went into a recession, they lost money not just by flying empty airplanes, but also by owning empty hotels. Both industries are also very capital intensive, and in the 1970s, TWA struggled to find the money to replace their 707s at the same time they wanted to expand Hilton International. TWA, United, and Pan Am eventually sold off their hotel chains; Americana was such a money loser that American was unable to sell the hotel chain as a whole; AA sold Americana's hotels on a piecemeal basis at a loss, and many of them eventually became Westins or Sheratons.
 
Dan77W
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Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:02 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
Overselling hotel rooms is SOP just like it is for airlines. Funny people would defend the airlines to death but when hotels do the same EXACT thing it's a crime LOL

Flight crews with delays are probably some of the last people to check in and most likely to no show. Flight crews are VERY frequent no shows for hotels, I used to work in a hotel. Flight gets cancelled and the crew doesn't show. Just like the airlines if you are last to check in and they are oversold the crew will be SOL. Many hotel owners lost alot during covid and are not gonna oversell.

Most of these cress without rooms are situations where it's a popular tourist market and there just are not hotel rooms. It's often a flight cancel or diversion etc

It’s not the flight crews responsibility to notify the hotel if a flight is canceled or delayed, it’s the airline’s responsibility.

Is it the airline's responsibility if all the hotel rooms in a "reasonable" radius are all occupied and none available?


If the airline wants a flight to leave on time the next day….yes it is!
 
TW870
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Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:12 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
DL757NYC wrote:
RR757 wrote:
I travel a fair amount and I have to book/pay for my own flight and hotel and then claim. Doesn’t bother me - I get the loyalty points from both for my leisure trips.



One of the most ignorant comments I’ve ever seen.

It's not ignorant, it's real life.


Basic airline economics clarify why large airlines book hotels for their crews rather than leaving it to individuals.

Some smaller cargo airlines with ad-hoc schedules do exactly what WayexTDI suggests, allowing pilots to book hotels and off-line deadheads and keep the points. They do this because there is little regularity to their schedule, and they have a relatively small employee pool given the lack of flight attendants.

Because passenger airlines have large flight attendant crews in addition to pilots, it is the airline that insists on doing the hotel booking. Remember, at many airlines, crews only get their schedule 12-15 days before the first trips operate. If you asked crews to book into expensive hotel markets during the summer peak with short notice, the airline would be on the hook for massive price spikes when they reimburse the employees. Therefore, the airline does is book rooms in bulk far in advance, taking advantage of their pricing leverage when they go in as a large buyer in a market. I would have loved to book my own rooms when I was a United flight attendant, picking my own hotels and keeping the points. But United would never have let me, because doing so would have been cost prohibitive. The result is that the airline manages the relationship with these big hotel contracts, both in advance and on a daily operational basis.
 
DLASFlyer
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Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:12 pm

Spacepope wrote:
You roll into any podunk town out west and find a nice newer hotel with a diner attached? Usually BNSF or its ilk has made that complex to house workers since the local free market doesn't or can't cater to them. I've stayed in them before. Very spartan, but comfy, clean and safe. Company of course always has priority in rooms though.


I live in Wyoming and have never seen/heard of this. Can you provide an example?
 
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Spacepope
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Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:24 pm

DLASFlyer wrote:
Spacepope wrote:
You roll into any podunk town out west and find a nice newer hotel with a diner attached? Usually BNSF or its ilk has made that complex to house workers since the local free market doesn't or can't cater to them. I've stayed in them before. Very spartan, but comfy, clean and safe. Company of course always has priority in rooms though.


I live in Wyoming and have never seen/heard of this. Can you provide an example?


You'll find them in various guises and names. Some have recently been sold off to Wyndham, however if you see things like "Cobblestone Inn" (like in Torrington) or "Boarders" those are usually them. There's some very obvious ones like the new construction unit in Eads, Co or Sharon Springs, KS.
 
Lootess
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Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:56 pm

I remember reading the AFA contract for AA a year or so ago. Basically to get an idea of the standard since DL is non-union. It's rather spelled out the radius, types, and amenties of hotels that are allowed to be used for overnighters for the safety of the crew. So I can imagine how nutty things were when AA even tried an option that wasn't available 3 hours away when a music festival happened. Regardless in-flight services is suppose to handle all hotel logistics, including during IROPS. While it's good that the crew can just go and book something for themselves and crew, it's taxing to deal with the logistics on a regular basis with their already long work day. Business travelers usually do this stuff well in-advance like before their trip takes place. So have a little decency here for the crew.
 
DLASFlyer
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Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Thu Jul 29, 2021 2:21 pm

Spacepope wrote:
DLASFlyer wrote:
Spacepope wrote:
You roll into any podunk town out west and find a nice newer hotel with a diner attached? Usually BNSF or its ilk has made that complex to house workers since the local free market doesn't or can't cater to them. I've stayed in them before. Very spartan, but comfy, clean and safe. Company of course always has priority in rooms though.


I live in Wyoming and have never seen/heard of this. Can you provide an example?


You'll find them in various guises and names. Some have recently been sold off to Wyndham, however if you see things like "Cobblestone Inn" (like in Torrington) or "Boarders" those are usually them. There's some very obvious ones like the new construction unit in Eads, Co or Sharon Springs, KS.


None of those appear to have any connections to BNSF.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobblestone_Hotels
 
CobaltScar
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Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Thu Jul 29, 2021 2:55 pm

a lot of airlines allow crew to self help themselves if they wait X amount of time for the company to unsuccessfully find them a hotel. No one likes to do it because then you have to chase them for your money back.
 
kalvado
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Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Thu Jul 29, 2021 2:55 pm

DLASFlyer wrote:
Spacepope wrote:
DLASFlyer wrote:

I live in Wyoming and have never seen/heard of this. Can you provide an example?


You'll find them in various guises and names. Some have recently been sold off to Wyndham, however if you see things like "Cobblestone Inn" (like in Torrington) or "Boarders" those are usually them. There's some very obvious ones like the new construction unit in Eads, Co or Sharon Springs, KS.


None of those appear to have any connections to BNSF.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobblestone_Hotels

A bit further north:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Pacific_Hotels
 
jetmatt777
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Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Thu Jul 29, 2021 3:01 pm

The railroads are migrating away from overnighting crews as much as possible. With precision railroading (which FNBS* is the only US class 1 railroad to not incorporate) they are organizing trips to allow for out and backs for a given subdivision. This doesn’t work ALL the time especially for low priority manifest trains that get sided to let other traffic through. Those crews tend to time out more.

*BNFS pronounced Effin BS
 
Boof02671
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Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Thu Jul 29, 2021 3:08 pm

Lootess wrote:
I remember reading the AFA contract for AA a year or so ago. Basically to get an idea of the standard since DL is non-union. It's rather spelled out the radius, types, and amenties of hotels that are allowed to be used for overnighters for the safety of the crew. So I can imagine how nutty things were when AA even tried an option that wasn't available 3 hours away when a music festival happened. Regardless in-flight services is suppose to handle all hotel logistics, including during IROPS. While it's good that the crew can just go and book something for themselves and crew, it's taxing to deal with the logistics on a regular basis with their already long work day. Business travelers usually do this stuff well in-advance like before their trip takes place. So have a little decency here for the crew.

American Airlines flight attendants aren’t m Kherson of the AFA. They have their own independent union APFA and have been for decades.

Here is the merger CBA. The most current one is behind their wall.

https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/a ... t-2014.pdf

Image
Image
Image
Image
 
Boof02671
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Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Thu Jul 29, 2021 3:18 pm

Lootess wrote:
I remember reading the AFA contract for AA a year or so ago. Basically to get an idea of the standard since DL is non-union. It's rather spelled out the radius, types, and amenties of hotels that are allowed to be used for overnighters for the safety of the crew. So I can imagine how nutty things were when AA even tried an option that wasn't available 3 hours away when a music festival happened. Regardless in-flight services is suppose to handle all hotel logistics, including during IROPS. While it's good that the crew can just go and book something for themselves and crew, it's taxing to deal with the logistics on a regular basis with their already long work day. Business travelers usually do this stuff well in-advance like before their trip takes place. So have a little decency here for the crew.

Remember Delta’s fiasco?
 
ltbewr
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Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Thu Jul 29, 2021 4:00 pm

Obviously Airbnb is not an option due to security/safety issues and likely nothing was available for any reasonable price through them anyway.
I am quite sure this situation is not uncommon where normally crews don't stay overnight and no rooms will be available. It does get into a conflict with the contract and Federal law. We are also in an extraordinary time due to the pandemic. massive demand for hotel rooms in certain locations, lack of staffing so even if have rooms, they can't be cleaned so unavailable. Perhaps some adjustments in the contract should be made for the extraordinary situation we are in.
 
atcdan
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Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Thu Jul 29, 2021 4:54 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
ASFlyer wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Is it the airline's responsibility if all the hotel rooms in a "reasonable" radius are all occupied and none available?


Yes, in fact, per the contracts the airlines agree to with their work groups, it IS the airlines responsibility to find hotel accommodations for overnight stays.

So, the airline is responsible for the hotels failures or overselling?
The airline need to correct the problem (maybe by suing the hotels, that's up to them); but saying the airline is at fault because of the hotels actions is a stretch too far.



The airline’s responsibility is to follow the contract they agreed to with their employees. If that doesn’t happen, the employees impacted are due compensation determined by an arbitrator.
 
Boof02671
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Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Thu Jul 29, 2021 5:24 pm

atcdan wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
ASFlyer wrote:

Yes, in fact, per the contracts the airlines agree to with their work groups, it IS the airlines responsibility to find hotel accommodations for overnight stays.

So, the airline is responsible for the hotels failures or overselling?
The airline need to correct the problem (maybe by suing the hotels, that's up to them); but saying the airline is at fault because of the hotels actions is a stretch too far.



The airline’s responsibility is to follow the contract they agreed to with their employees. If that doesn’t happen, the employees impacted are due compensation determined by an arbitrator.

That’s if it goes to arbitration, there are several steps before, unless both parties agree to expedited arbitration.
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Thu Jul 29, 2021 5:43 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
Overselling hotel rooms is SOP just like it is for airlines. Funny people would defend the airlines to death but when hotels do the same EXACT thing it's a crime LOL

Flight crews with delays are probably some of the last people to check in and most likely to no show. Flight crews are VERY frequent no shows for hotels, I used to work in a hotel. Flight gets cancelled and the crew doesn't show. Just like the airlines if you are last to check in and they are oversold the crew will be SOL. Many hotel owners lost alot during covid and are not gonna oversell.

Most of these cress without rooms are situations where it's a popular tourist market and there just are not hotel rooms. It's often a flight cancel or diversion etc

It’s not the flight crews responsibility to notify the hotel if a flight is canceled or delayed, it’s the airline’s responsibility.

Is it the airline's responsibility if all the hotel rooms in a "reasonable" radius are all occupied and none available?

They (the airline) have to live with the consequences either way -- the crew that didn't have legally mandated rest, is not legal to fly next day.

As word "responsible" has multiple meanings, we can break it down:
1) is the airline "responsible" (as in "must") to find their crews accommodation, so they can sleep -- yes
2) is the airline "responsible" (as in "guilty") that in IROPS situation, such accommodation might not be available in reasonable radius/quality -- no
3) is the airline "responsible" (as in "has a duty") to deal with the consequences -- timed out, unrested crews on constant duty, not flying the planes, good only as deadheads, while fresh crews and/or equipment are brought in to deal with the consequences -- yes
 
Lootess
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Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Thu Jul 29, 2021 5:48 pm

I mistakenly wrote AFA, as AA is APFA, regardless the meat on the bones was correct and the contract has explicit things that AA has not been abiding by, simplest things like requiring a credit card because now the FA has to look and book manually. Just because Delta is non-union doesn't mean there isn't a process and policy standard that IFS is supposed to handle, in many ways it's not that much different from a union contract.

ltbewr wrote:
Obviously Airbnb is not an option due to security/safety issues and likely nothing was available for any reasonable price through them anyway.
I am quite sure this situation is not uncommon where normally crews don't stay overnight and no rooms will be available. It does get into a conflict with the contract and Federal law. We are also in an extraordinary time due to the pandemic. massive demand for hotel rooms in certain locations, lack of staffing so even if have rooms, they can't be cleaned so unavailable. Perhaps some adjustments in the contract should be made for the extraordinary situation we are in.


Yep, it's part of it, the contract has some constraints with the current economy and many hotels are not as fully staffed. While ideally AA's hotel partners should be helping the company abide by the contract like they always have, it might be a good time for IFS to start looking for better partners, and deals. That way they can still abide by the sprit of the contract. If anything this is what should have been happening, the status quo isn't enough.
 
alasizon
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Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Thu Jul 29, 2021 5:53 pm

Does anyone have an actual list of some of the referenced failures since the one FCA example was a bad one?
 
ASFlyer
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Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:54 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
ASFlyer wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Is it the airline's responsibility if all the hotel rooms in a "reasonable" radius are all occupied and none available?


Yes, in fact, per the contracts the airlines agree to with their work groups, it IS the airlines responsibility to find hotel accommodations for overnight stays.

So, the airline is responsible for the hotels failures or overselling?
The airline need to correct the problem (maybe by suing the hotels, that's up to them); but saying the airline is at fault because of the hotels actions is a stretch too far.


Yes, the airline is responsible. There's no universe where it's okay to send a crew to a layover somewhere and just say, "sorry, everything is sold out and we couldn't find you a room, hope you can find a place yourself, get good rest". That's ridiculous. The airlines agree to the contracts to - it's a two way street. They're on the hook for finding accommodations.
 
wjcandee
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Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:56 pm

CobaltScar wrote:
Some places have just that. I think there is a hotel in Detroit that is owned by Delta.


British Airways owns (owned?) a building in Manhattan that was used exclusively as a hotel for BA aircrews. Fitzpatrick Hotel Group operates it under contract to BA. Kind of a CMI arrangement by the hotel company. Works for the hotelier as well because they own/operate a hotel just around the corner on Lexington between 56th and 57th.
 
SWALUV
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Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Thu Jul 29, 2021 7:26 pm

alasizon wrote:
Does anyone have an actual list of some of the referenced failures since the one FCA example was a bad one?


There won’t be many leaked to the public until the meeting involving the grievance has happened. This happens way more than people seem to be realizing, and at the end of the day, the airline is responsible for providing lodging. If a hotel is oversold, it is the airline’s responsibility to find lodging somewhere else. This is where the issue lies in this grievance and many other ones that will come to light, again after the meeting.
 
TWFlyGuy
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Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Thu Jul 29, 2021 7:28 pm

Clearly some risk but I wonder if there has been any consideration in cities where this has been a bigger issue of asking fellow employees who have appropriate extra bedrooms to house a crewmember. For example we have a totally unused guest room that we could "rent" to the airline but they may say no because it has a jack & jill adjoining a young child's room. However, we have a totally separate floor with a bathroom and suitable distance from the rest of us that they could pay $50 for the night. Emergency basis like this only but wonder if it has been considered. Seems like a DL thing to do quite frankly.

Also wonder why we're not hearing this at DL (pilots union) or UA...likely the same issues in any given city.
 
AAtakeMeAway
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Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Thu Jul 29, 2021 7:34 pm

blackbriar17 wrote:
Reading a CNBC article is not the same as reading the grievance, and the few examples given do not tell the whole story.
The "hotel desk" was outsourced by AA management to a contractor and it has been a fiasco from day 1. Our own people did a great job for us and we rarely had the kinds of problems that are now routine. Long wait times, inexperienced and poorly trained personnel and a smug, dismissive attitude from Aa management about the problems have led to this grievance.


20 years or so they contracted with Nationwide. Are they with a different hotel desk contractor now?
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8602
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Thu Jul 29, 2021 9:31 pm

ASFlyer wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
ASFlyer wrote:

Yes, in fact, per the contracts the airlines agree to with their work groups, it IS the airlines responsibility to find hotel accommodations for overnight stays.

So, the airline is responsible for the hotels failures or overselling?
The airline need to correct the problem (maybe by suing the hotels, that's up to them); but saying the airline is at fault because of the hotels actions is a stretch too far.


Yes, the airline is responsible. There's no universe where it's okay to send a crew to a layover somewhere and just say, "sorry, everything is sold out and we couldn't find you a room, hope you can find a place yourself, get good rest". That's ridiculous. The airlines agree to the contracts to - it's a two way street. They're on the hook for finding accommodations.


Been there in a bizjet, “we’re going back to plane and fly elsewhere” or “$1000 a night, no sweat, here’s the company card”. Done both. Obviously, not possible in an airline position or a train one.
 
TW870
Posts: 1372
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:01 am

Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:34 pm

TWFlyGuy wrote:
Clearly some risk but I wonder if there has been any consideration in cities where this has been a bigger issue of asking fellow employees who have appropriate extra bedrooms to house a crewmember. For example we have a totally unused guest room that we could "rent" to the airline but they may say no because it has a jack & jill adjoining a young child's room. However, we have a totally separate floor with a bathroom and suitable distance from the rest of us that they could pay $50 for the night. Emergency basis like this only but wonder if it has been considered. Seems like a DL thing to do quite frankly.

Also wonder why we're not hearing this at DL (pilots union) or UA...likely the same issues in any given city.


That has not been considered in any scalable sense as a widely used solution. There is a specific definition of "legal rest" in every airline contract, all of which specify particular qualities of hotel rooms in question for reasons of safety and health. Doubling up in hotels, or crashing at coworkers houses, does not meet the definition. In the scenario you name, the crew member would be counted as remaining on duty and would be illegal for any trip after staying at a coworker's house. The airline will only pursue solutions that give crews legal rest, which allows them to operate the following day and protect the integrity of the operation.
 
bigb
Posts: 1513
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 4:30 pm

Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:50 pm

TWFlyGuy wrote:
Clearly some risk but I wonder if there has been any consideration in cities where this has been a bigger issue of asking fellow employees who have appropriate extra bedrooms to house a crewmember. For example we have a totally unused guest room that we could "rent" to the airline but they may say no because it has a jack & jill adjoining a young child's room. However, we have a totally separate floor with a bathroom and suitable distance from the rest of us that they could pay $50 for the night. Emergency basis like this only but wonder if it has been considered. Seems like a DL thing to do quite frankly.

Also wonder why we're not hearing this at DL (pilots union) or UA...likely the same issues in any given city.


This would be very Illegal per FAA to have the crews operate after this kind of rest. Will not happen. There are issues affecting every airline. It’s about how each airline is coming up with ways to get creative with pairings. For example, we are DHing crews to SEA and PDX and layover there due to issues in ANC and DHing up to ANC sticking them on multi-crew flights.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2831
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Thu Jul 29, 2021 11:23 pm

alasizon wrote:
Does anyone have an actual list of some of the referenced failures since the one FCA example was a bad one?

That won’t be revealed till a grievance hearing
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2831
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Thu Jul 29, 2021 11:25 pm

TWFlyGuy wrote:
Clearly some risk but I wonder if there has been any consideration in cities where this has been a bigger issue of asking fellow employees who have appropriate extra bedrooms to house a crewmember. For example we have a totally unused guest room that we could "rent" to the airline but they may say no because it has a jack & jill adjoining a young child's room. However, we have a totally separate floor with a bathroom and suitable distance from the rest of us that they could pay $50 for the night. Emergency basis like this only but wonder if it has been considered. Seems like a DL thing to do quite frankly.

Also wonder why we're not hearing this at DL (pilots union) or UA...likely the same issues in any given city.

Totally unsafe and totally against the contracts.

Way too many things can happen and the company would be liable
 
11C
Posts: 319
Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:25 pm

Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:36 am

WayexTDI wrote:
ASFlyer wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Is it the airline's responsibility if all the hotel rooms in a "reasonable" radius are all occupied and none available?


Yes, in fact, per the contracts the airlines agree to with their work groups, it IS the airlines responsibility to find hotel accommodations for overnight stays.

So, the airline is responsible for the hotels failures or overselling?
The airline need to correct the problem (maybe by suing the hotels, that's up to them); but saying the airline is at fault because of the hotels actions is a stretch too far.


Somehow we are talking around the only thing that matters. The airline is responsible for the lodging, and the rest requirements (jointly with the crew). All this other talk is beside the point, and not really important to the discussion. Putting the crew in charge of their own rest and lodging is a non starter, period.
 
usflyer msp
Posts: 4364
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 11:50 am

Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:46 am

Now Southwest crews have filed a grievance against WN as well. AA is not the only one.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ks-fatigue
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 1822
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:15 am

Italianflyer wrote:
The FCA issue was listed as an example...a poor one at that (And I agree if it's not a normal night stop station then it's hardly surprising). But it goes on to say...

"The case was unusual but flight attendants have often arrived at destinations without lodging, face long waits for rooms and extensive hold times with crew lodging support, the union official said."

That implies, to me at least, that this is a widespread issue. And although anecdotal, I'm hearing about this from friends who fly for both mainline and regional carriers. And it has occurred in both smaller cities that are new to the network and larger cities that have been established for quite some time.

I have not worked in the hotel industry in 30 years. Back in the day, if we were overbooked and sold a guaranteed room, we had to "walk" the guests to a comparable property at our hotels expense. I would assume that's still the case; I don't understand why sometimes crew may be on their own covering lodging expenses. I certainly CAN understand how on a minimum layover, spending an hour or two dinking around with accommodations would cut into critical rest.

No hotels, no available transportation, etc. I have had to deal with stuff like that in the past.

Places like FCA, BTV or JAC in summer, the Caribbean or South Florida during the winter holidays, are very tough places to deal with IROPs in.

This is one of those things where relationships MATTER. Knowing WHO to call for help, or for a backup, makes all the difference in the world. And those departments got butchered in the cuts, just like every other non flying position.

I know that a large 3rd party airline crew hotel vendor that kept some staff on site at the airline HQ’s got bought out and merged with another company last year in the fallout from Covid, and slashed staff as well. Last I heard they were running most of the operation out of a phone room at Luton Airport. It apparently barely worked while traffic was down, I cannot image what it is like with the fast ramp-up this summer, though I am hearing stories about it from people still in the building. (And they aren’t good!)
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 1822
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:21 am

Boof02671 wrote:
alasizon wrote:
Does anyone have an actual list of some of the referenced failures since the one FCA example was a bad one?

That won’t be revealed till a grievance hearing

FCA is always bad in summer when an IROP happens, I would think that this year even more so. Very limited options, no transportation, hotels not able to find staff, especially low-paid cleaning staff, massive crowds, and LONG distances to other options.
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 1822
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:33 am

11C wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
ASFlyer wrote:

Yes, in fact, per the contracts the airlines agree to with their work groups, it IS the airlines responsibility to find hotel accommodations for overnight stays.

So, the airline is responsible for the hotels failures or overselling?
The airline need to correct the problem (maybe by suing the hotels, that's up to them); but saying the airline is at fault because of the hotels actions is a stretch too far.


Somehow we are talking around the only thing that matters. The airline is responsible for the lodging, and the rest requirements (jointly with the crew). All this other talk is beside the point, and not really important to the discussion. Putting the crew in charge of their own rest and lodging is a non starter, period.

It has been known to happen, from time to time, especially during a big IROP. Not the preferred solution, by far, but they were likely just one of dozens or hundreds of misplaced crews at that same time.

Only so many staff, especially right now, everyone is short-handed, and the priority is saving the morning flights first. A tough problem with one crew in FCA comes a lot lower priority than 10 crews in NYC, for example. The crews always feel like they are at the end of a long string, and forgotten about, but that isn’t the case at all. Sometimes it is like triage, you rescue the larger number and easiest to do first, so they don’t pass while everyone is bogged down working only one problem.

Add in independently-owned hotels trying to make up for 18 months losses in just a few weeks, and you have a recipe for trouble. I feel for the poor schedulers, they get crapped on from all directions.
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 1822
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:42 am

Boof02671 wrote:
Lootess wrote:
I remember reading the AFA contract for AA a year or so ago. Basically to get an idea of the standard since DL is non-union. It's rather spelled out the radius, types, and amenties of hotels that are allowed to be used for overnighters for the safety of the crew. So I can imagine how nutty things were when AA even tried an option that wasn't available 3 hours away when a music festival happened. Regardless in-flight services is suppose to handle all hotel logistics, including during IROPS. While it's good that the crew can just go and book something for themselves and crew, it's taxing to deal with the logistics on a regular basis with their already long work day. Business travelers usually do this stuff well in-advance like before their trip takes place. So have a little decency here for the crew.

Remember Delta’s fiasco?

Contracts are great, but there are times when they aren’t worth the paper they are written on. Does not matter what it says, when you just can’t schit out four, or seven, or ten QUALIFYING hotel rooms within 100 miles. It does happen at times, whether you want it to or not.
 
jetmatt777
Posts: 4812
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:16 am

Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:40 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Lootess wrote:
I remember reading the AFA contract for AA a year or so ago. Basically to get an idea of the standard since DL is non-union. It's rather spelled out the radius, types, and amenties of hotels that are allowed to be used for overnighters for the safety of the crew. So I can imagine how nutty things were when AA even tried an option that wasn't available 3 hours away when a music festival happened. Regardless in-flight services is suppose to handle all hotel logistics, including during IROPS. While it's good that the crew can just go and book something for themselves and crew, it's taxing to deal with the logistics on a regular basis with their already long work day. Business travelers usually do this stuff well in-advance like before their trip takes place. So have a little decency here for the crew.

Remember Delta’s fiasco?

Contracts are great, but there are times when they aren’t worth the paper they are written on. Does not matter what it says, when you just can’t schit out four, or seven, or ten QUALIFYING hotel rooms within 100 miles. It does happen at times, whether you want it to or not.


Yes - but that still doesn’t absolve them of the legal responsibility to their customers and crew. They can deadhead a fresh crew to operate the airplanes. Rest requirements are not to be toyed with - I think the FAA and any judge would agree that is any area of little compromise.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 15377
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:17 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Remember Delta’s fiasco?

Contracts are great, but there are times when they aren’t worth the paper they are written on. Does not matter what it says, when you just can’t schit out four, or seven, or ten QUALIFYING hotel rooms within 100 miles. It does happen at times, whether you want it to or not.


Yes - but that still doesn’t absolve them of the legal responsibility to their customers and crew. They can deadhead a fresh crew to operate the airplanes. Rest requirements are not to be toyed with - I think the FAA and any judge would agree that is any area of little compromise.


That's right, but we're talking in this thread about a grievance, not about an FAA investigation of rest legality. The FCA incident (still the only one anyone has identified specifically) occurred precisely because the crew observed duty time regulations and did not operate the return flight.
 
jetmatt777
Posts: 4812
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:16 am

Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:43 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
Contracts are great, but there are times when they aren’t worth the paper they are written on. Does not matter what it says, when you just can’t schit out four, or seven, or ten QUALIFYING hotel rooms within 100 miles. It does happen at times, whether you want it to or not.


Yes - but that still doesn’t absolve them of the legal responsibility to their customers and crew. They can deadhead a fresh crew to operate the airplanes. Rest requirements are not to be toyed with - I think the FAA and any judge would agree that is any area of little compromise.


That's right, but we're talking in this thread about a grievance, not about an FAA investigation of rest legality. The FCA incident (still the only one anyone has identified specifically) occurred precisely because the crew observed duty time regulations and did not operate the return flight.


I linked to an article earlier where OO didn’t secure rooms and the crew slept on the floor of the plane, and then operated it the next morning. A clear violation - although I will agree that is not related to the main topic of AA, but pointing out a systemic failure of several airlines to meet the regulations.
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 1822
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:57 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:

Yes - but that still doesn’t absolve them of the legal responsibility to their customers and crew. They can deadhead a fresh crew to operate the airplanes. Rest requirements are not to be toyed with - I think the FAA and any judge would agree that is any area of little compromise.


That's right, but we're talking in this thread about a grievance, not about an FAA investigation of rest legality. The FCA incident (still the only one anyone has identified specifically) occurred precisely because the crew observed duty time regulations and did not operate the return flight.


I linked to an article earlier where OO didn’t secure rooms and the crew slept on the floor of the plane, and then operated it the next morning. A clear violation - although I will agree that is not related to the main topic of AA, but pointing out a systemic failure of several airlines to meet the regulations.

I remember when sleeping overnight in the station’s crew rest lounge was the norm, not the exception, and that wasn’t so long ago.
 
BarryH
Posts: 69
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2012 6:00 am

Re: AA Unions File Grievance Over Lack of Hotel Availability

Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:58 pm

Let me give you a hotelier's point of view. We house C5 in a secondary market. Based on the monthly schedule we were given before the month began there were two flights with 3 crew per flight overnighting. They stopped overnighting the crew of the earlier two flights and never notified us (we're supposed to be update daily) so they ended up paying for 3 rooms they didn't use for two weeks.

Then, because the operational performance of the last flight in went to crap due to crew rest issues causing UA to go ape crap, they started flying two sets of crew in on the last flight in so the deadheading crew could fly the AM flight out in case the crew flying the flight in timed out. They consistently ask and pay for 6 rooms but some times don't send the additional crew. And we never know whether we're getting those 3 extra crew until the plane lands and we speak directly to the crew flying it.

So it's a two way street. Because of OTP and crew shortages the airlines have lost control of crew scheduling and aren't keeping the hotels updated as to what their real needs are. Some hotels wouldn't be as benevolent as I am so when I get no names for those 3 extra rooms requested I just charge them at the crew rate when if I'm full I could sell them for three times that because without having been given names those rooms aren't really committed.

As for hotel performance in general we're suffering the same issues every business is. We can't get staff and what we do get is subpar and turn over is exceptionally high. We can't get towels, linen, amenities, and maintenance supplies reliably due to supply chain issues. We do the best we can but guests who haven't traveled since before COVID are expecting things to be like they were and that's not going to happen any time soon.

As for how hotels view airline crew it depends on the situation and is influenced by geography. Areas like Hawaii, Orlando, Las Vegas, and Disney run similar occupancy rates 7 days a week. When demand is high hotels in those areas don't need airline crew. Most other hotels are seeing strong demand on weekends and weaker demand midweek due to the slow comeback of corporate travel and meetings. In those situation you lose money housing airline crew on weekends but make it up on the midweek rooms that would otherwise go unsold.

So in summary the airlines operational performance, pushing their networks to the limit, and crew shortages have made them totally awful partners to hotels from a communication and reliability perspective. In the C5 example they've admitted they don't how many crew we'll get on some days and just pay for more rooms than they need just in case. Hotels in high demand destinations are probably regretting their crew business right now but most play the long game. The spread of Delta may make those that were riding high regret casting aside their airline business when their occupancies return to 50%. BTW, whether to take crew and at how much is decided by each individual hotel and the brands have nothing to do with it.

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