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Midwestindy
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Contour Airlines adds IND-BNA/MKE/PIT, MKE-PIT

Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:16 pm

Midwest Express looks to be asleep at the wheel, so Contour is coming in to fill the void.

The Indiana Economic Development Corp is providing revenue guarantees for the IND flights.

IND-BNA/PIT were announced pre-covid, but were subsequently cancelled before launch
ORD & IND

AA & DL
 
BangersAndMash
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Re: Contour Airlines adds IND-BNA/MKE/PIT, MKE-PIT

Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:28 pm

Wow! That's more than I thought they'd do right off the bat. They're going for it!
 
UALFAson
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Re: Contour Airlines adds IND-BNA/MKE/PIT, MKE-PIT

Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:28 pm

Hopefully this will appease all the BNA fanboys who keep speculating why/when WN will start IND service.

This will obviously facilitate same-day business trips between the 2 cities for whatever of that demand exists. It's about a 4.5-hour drive each way.
"We hope you've enjoyed flying with us as much as we've enjoyed taking you for a ride."
 
Planeboy17
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Re: Contour Airlines adds IND-BNA/MKE/PIT, MKE-PIT

Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:34 pm

Is there any more information? Dates when service starts, times, days of service, 135 or 145s?
 
Jshank83
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Re: Contour Airlines adds IND-BNA/MKE/PIT, MKE-PIT

Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:47 pm

Planeboy17 wrote:
Is there any more information? Dates when service starts, times, days of service, 135 or 145s?


PIT paper says Oct 12. The IND one I saw said Oct 8

From PIT paper

Contour will use Embraer 135 and 145 jets reconfigured to seat 30 people for the flights. That allows for no middle seats and for legroom equivalent to that offered in first class sections by major airlines — important considerations in the age of COVID.

One way fares start at $99 for both routes. There’s no charge for seat selection and travelers can check one bag for free.

The flight to Indianapolis International Airport will leave Pittsburgh at 7:05 a.m. each day except Saturday when it departs at 9 a.m. The flight to Milwaukee Mitchell International Airport takes off at 3 p.m.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Contour Airlines adds IND-BNA/MKE/PIT, MKE-PIT

Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:47 pm

Planeboy17 wrote:
Is there any more information? Dates when service starts, times, days of service, 135 or 145s?

https://www.ibj.com/articles/small-airl ... le-markets
ORD & IND

AA & DL
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Contour Airlines adds IND-BNA/MKE/PIT, MKE-PIT

Wed Jul 28, 2021 3:01 pm

UALFAson wrote:
This will obviously facilitate same-day business trips between the 2 cities for whatever of that demand exists. It's about a 4.5-hour drive each way.


Whatever demand exists on IND-BNA, indeed. Come back in a year and see if they're still flying it.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Contour Airlines adds IND-BNA/MKE/PIT, MKE-PIT

Wed Jul 28, 2021 3:09 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
UALFAson wrote:
This will obviously facilitate same-day business trips between the 2 cities for whatever of that demand exists. It's about a 4.5-hour drive each way.


Whatever demand exists on IND-BNA, indeed. Come back in a year and see if they're still flying it.


I imagine it's a similarly-sized market to BNA-CVG (it's hard to know for sure since the two have never had similar levels of air service at the same time), and DL couldn't make BNA-CVG work despite some connections at the CVG end and an operational need to move aircraft in and out of OO maintenance at BNA.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
MohawkWeekend
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Re: Contour Airlines adds IND-BNA/MKE/PIT, MKE-PIT

Wed Jul 28, 2021 3:15 pm

How is Ultimate doing on the BKL - LUK - BNA route?
    300 319 320 321 707 717 720 727 72S 737 73S 734 735 73G 738 739 747 757 762 ARJ B11 C212 CRJ CR2 CR7 CR9 CV5 D8S DC9 D9S D94 D95 D10 DH8 DTO EMB EM2 E135 E145 E190 FH7 F28 F100 FTRIMTR HRN L10 L15 M80 M90 SF3 SWM YS11
     
    BangersAndMash
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    Re: Contour Airlines adds IND-BNA/MKE/PIT, MKE-PIT

    Wed Jul 28, 2021 3:42 pm

    Their product looks nice for a small jet operation. Their non-EAS ops out of SBA got some great reviews. Hopefully it'll work out for them.
     
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    southwest1675
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    Re: Contour Airlines adds IND-BNA/MKE/PIT, MKE-PIT

    Wed Jul 28, 2021 3:54 pm

    MIflyer12 wrote:
    UALFAson wrote:
    This will obviously facilitate same-day business trips between the 2 cities for whatever of that demand exists. It's about a 4.5-hour drive each way.


    Whatever demand exists on IND-BNA, indeed. Come back in a year and see if they're still flying it.



    I’m thinking about booking it to see a Titans game in Indy.
    Herb Kelleher 1931-2019
     
    pmanni1
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    Re: Contour Airlines adds IND-BNA/MKE/PIT, MKE-PIT

    Wed Jul 28, 2021 3:57 pm

    Midwestindy wrote:
    Planeboy17 wrote:
    Is there any more information? Dates when service starts, times, days of service, 135 or 145s?

    https://www.ibj.com/articles/small-airl ... le-markets

    This article makes it sound like WN IND-STL is starting back up in November.
     
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    Boiler905
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    Re: Contour Airlines adds IND-BNA/MKE/PIT, MKE-PIT

    Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:03 pm

    Cubsrule wrote:
    MIflyer12 wrote:
    UALFAson wrote:
    This will obviously facilitate same-day business trips between the 2 cities for whatever of that demand exists. It's about a 4.5-hour drive each way.


    Whatever demand exists on IND-BNA, indeed. Come back in a year and see if they're still flying it.


    I imagine it's a similarly-sized market to BNA-CVG (it's hard to know for sure since the two have never had similar levels of air service at the same time), and DL couldn't make BNA-CVG work despite some connections at the CVG end and an operational need to move aircraft in and out of OO maintenance at BNA.


    Contour needs to fly these routes more than 1x daily to allow for day-trips. That's the only way these drivable markets work. I understand DL didn't make CVG-BNA work but there were many other factors there. Contour is purely goin for the local market.

    It sounds like, according to the IBJ article, they expect the introductory $99 fares to expire and be able to sell around $300 roundtrip, which would be an insanely good yield for these lengths of haul.

    If anyone else starts these markets though like WN, Contour will have to fly the planes somewhere else.
    Boiler Up
     
    commpilot
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    Re: Contour Airlines adds IND-BNA/MKE/PIT, MKE-PIT

    Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:49 pm

    How does CFM stay in business? Even with all their paper airlines that just take free government money, how does anyone keep giving them money.
     
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    knope2001
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    Re: Contour Airlines adds IND-BNA/MKE/PIT, MKE-PIT

    Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:25 pm

    So it looks like IND, MKE and PIT are one aircraft doing a triangle in the morning and in the later afternoon.

    PIT-IND-MKE-PIT in the morning, leave PIT at 7:00 and arriving back by noon.

    PIT-MKE-IND-MKE in the late afternoon, leaving PIT at 3:00pm and arriving back by 7:50pm.

    So there are two trips in both PIT markets, a nonstop and a 1-stop. Same-day travel works if you originate in PIT, but if you originate in IND or MKE you only have three hours in Pittsburgh..
    Also, day trips from Indy to Milwaukee work, but not vice versa. The triangle routing will probably help some with loads -- the morning IND-MKE will not only have local passengers but some thru PIT-MKE passengers and some thru IND-PIT passengers, for example. Not as ideal as all-nonstop but when the alternative is a connection in DTW or ORD a one-stop isn't so bad. It's interesting that IND-MKE was the first OneJet route, followed very shortly by MKE-PIT and within days PIT-IND after. Obviously we hope this turns out better, but some of the jaw-dropping business practices of OneJet almost certainly are not a prt of Contour or they'd long be out of business by now.

    The BNA flight is a single one in late afternoon, BNA-IND-BNA. Late afternoon is a good "business" time to fly but the issue is how did you get there? You'd have to be on a "fly the night before" sort of business trip, and those definitely do exist. if you need to be to the client by 8 or 9am you usually go the night before. But still, without a morning flight and no good connecting alternatives it may be a challenge.
     
    DaCubbyBearBar
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    Re: Contour Airlines adds IND-BNA/MKE/PIT, MKE-PIT

    Wed Jul 28, 2021 8:10 pm

    Midwestindy wrote:
    Midwest Express looks to be asleep at the wheel, so Contour is coming in to fill the void.

    The Indiana Economic Development Corp is providing revenue guarantees for the IND flights.

    IND-BNA/PIT were announced pre-covid, but were subsequently cancelled before launch

    How can airline that doesn’t really exist be asleep at the wheel? I was hoping for their return to the air but at this point I would not call them asleep, but rather DOA. Just my .02
    I am me and no one else...so my opinions are mine
     
    wedgetail737
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    Re: Contour Airlines adds IND-BNA/MKE/PIT, MKE-PIT

    Wed Jul 28, 2021 8:25 pm

    Wasn't Contour (LF) attempting to do these routes right before the pandemic hit?
     
    BangersAndMash
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    Re: Contour Airlines adds IND-BNA/MKE/PIT, MKE-PIT

    Wed Jul 28, 2021 8:39 pm

    wedgetail737 wrote:
    Wasn't Contour (LF) attempting to do these routes right before the pandemic hit?


    Some. IND-STL/BNA/PIT had been announced just before covid hit but never started.

    MKE wasn't part of the original plan.

    WN has since announced and flown IND-STL for a hot minute. It's not being flown right now but it looks like WN could resume it. Probably enough to keep Contour away.
     
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    knope2001
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    Re: Contour Airlines adds IND-BNA/MKE/PIT, MKE-PIT

    Wed Jul 28, 2021 9:11 pm

    Here are the flows for typical weekdays:

    0700 PIT
    0820 IND
    0855 IND
    0900 IND
    0905 MKE
    0935 MKE
    1200 PIT
    1500 PIT
    1530 MKE
    1605 MKE
    1805 IND
    1840 IND
    1950 PIT

    Time at destination for day trips
    PIT originators going to IND: 10:40 (8:20am to 6:40pm)
    PIT originators going to MKE 7:00 (9;05am to 4:05pm)
    IND originators going to MKE 7:00 (9:05am to 4:05pm)
    IND and MKE originators going to PIT: 3:00 (12:00pmk to 3:00pm)

    BNA-IND-BNA flow. What's curious is that these don't necessarily fit with the flight times the Tupelo aircraft uses, but I'm guessing there will be some schedule adjustments on that.
    Obviously no day trips in this market.

    1500 BNA
    1700 IND
    1745 IND
    1750 BNA
     
    rj777
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    Re: Contour Airlines adds IND-BNA/MKE/PIT, MKE-PIT

    Wed Jul 28, 2021 11:16 pm

    Looks like D27 & D29 at MKE are finally going to have a use again!
     
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    knope2001
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    Re: Contour Airlines adds IND-BNA/MKE/PIT, MKE-PIT

    Thu Jul 29, 2021 11:51 pm

    rj777 wrote:
    Looks like D27 & D29 at MKE are finally going to have a use again!


    Possible -- jetway gate D35 above the former D27/D28/D29 ramp takes up a bunch of space, but they could ground board. However these are ER4 or ER3 regional jets and I'd guess they'd use a jetbridge just like other small Embraer RJ's have.
     
    FlyingElvii
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    Re: Contour Airlines adds IND-BNA/MKE/PIT, MKE-PIT

    Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:09 am

    Cubsrule wrote:
    MIflyer12 wrote:
    UALFAson wrote:
    This will obviously facilitate same-day business trips between the 2 cities for whatever of that demand exists. It's about a 4.5-hour drive each way.


    Whatever demand exists on IND-BNA, indeed. Come back in a year and see if they're still flying it.


    I imagine it's a similarly-sized market to BNA-CVG (it's hard to know for sure since the two have never had similar levels of air service at the same time), and DL couldn't make BNA-CVG work despite some connections at the CVG end and an operational need to move aircraft in and out of OO maintenance at BNA.

    And yet, ComAir ran it 8-10 times a day on the EM2, and 5-6 times a day on the CRJ.
     
    Cubsrule
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    Re: Contour Airlines adds IND-BNA/MKE/PIT, MKE-PIT

    Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:45 am

    FlyingElvii wrote:
    Cubsrule wrote:
    MIflyer12 wrote:

    Whatever demand exists on IND-BNA, indeed. Come back in a year and see if they're still flying it.


    I imagine it's a similarly-sized market to BNA-CVG (it's hard to know for sure since the two have never had similar levels of air service at the same time), and DL couldn't make BNA-CVG work despite some connections at the CVG end and an operational need to move aircraft in and out of OO maintenance at BNA.

    And yet, ComAir ran it 8-10 times a day on the EM2, and 5-6 times a day on the CRJ.


    With what, 5 percent O&D or some such?
    I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
     
    FlyingElvii
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    Re: Contour Airlines adds IND-BNA/MKE/PIT, MKE-PIT

    Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:00 am

    Booked for the first week. Have a feeling I will be using it often for Indy and MKE.
     
    FlyingElvii
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    Re: Contour Airlines adds IND-BNA/MKE/PIT, MKE-PIT

    Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:04 am

    Cubsrule wrote:
    FlyingElvii wrote:
    Cubsrule wrote:

    I imagine it's a similarly-sized market to BNA-CVG (it's hard to know for sure since the two have never had similar levels of air service at the same time), and DL couldn't make BNA-CVG work despite some connections at the CVG end and an operational need to move aircraft in and out of OO maintenance at BNA.

    And yet, ComAir ran it 8-10 times a day on the EM2, and 5-6 times a day on the CRJ.


    With what, 5 percent O&D or some such?

    The EM2 only needed 3-5 full Y pax to pay for a trip like CVG-BNA, which is not an easy drive. Sunday or Friday, you could easily have 30 Y’s, All the other pax, connections or not, was money in the bank.
    The CRJ was considerably more expensive to operate, as they eventually learned.
     
    BangersAndMash
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    Re: Contour Airlines adds IND-BNA/MKE/PIT, MKE-PIT

    Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:55 am

    FlyingElvii wrote:
    Booked for the first week. Have a feeling I will be using it often for Indy and MKE.


    A completely unscientific insight over loads would be nice ;)
     
    stlgph
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    Re: Contour Airlines adds IND-BNA/MKE/PIT, MKE-PIT

    Fri Jul 30, 2021 3:59 pm

    UALFAson wrote:
    Hopefully this will appease all the BNA fanboys who keep speculating why/when WN will start IND service.

    This will obviously facilitate same-day business trips between the 2 cities for whatever of that demand exists. It's about a 4.5-hour drive each way.


    I am cheering on for this service, but I just have my doubts. If you could just pull on up to some sort of executive terminal, do a quick security screen and be on your way- that'd be great. The lines at IND security have been insane balls lately. So by the time I show up 90 minutes-2 hours before my flight to park, get to terminal, get through security, wait around for flight, etc, I could have halfway been there by now.

    Then you have the arrival into the other airport - leave the airport - make your way to your destination, etc etc - by the time that ends up - you're practically there ... in your own car, and could have knocked out a couple of quick calls along the way.
    if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
     
    a320flyer
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    Re: Contour Airlines adds IND-BNA/MKE/PIT, MKE-PIT

    Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:34 pm

    Cubsrule wrote:
    FlyingElvii wrote:
    Cubsrule wrote:

    I imagine it's a similarly-sized market to BNA-CVG (it's hard to know for sure since the two have never had similar levels of air service at the same time), and DL couldn't make BNA-CVG work despite some connections at the CVG end and an operational need to move aircraft in and out of OO maintenance at BNA.

    And yet, ComAir ran it 8-10 times a day on the EM2, and 5-6 times a day on the CRJ.


    With what, 5 percent O&D or some such?

    CVG-BNA O&D was 50-80 pax/day during that time, so 20-30% O&D. Not too bad for a drivable short regional route with the airfares DL was charging during that time.

    Pre-covid UE was running LUK-BNA at 2x/day E135/328J (1x/day currently). It certainly is doable from IND too.
     
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    usxguy
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    Re: Contour Airlines adds IND-BNA/MKE/PIT, MKE-PIT

    Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:52 pm

    Didn't LF operate these routes for OneJet at one point?
    xx
     
    MIflyer12
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    Re: Contour Airlines adds IND-BNA/MKE/PIT, MKE-PIT

    Fri Jul 30, 2021 9:36 pm

    FlyingElvii wrote:
    Cubsrule wrote:
    MIflyer12 wrote:

    Whatever demand exists on IND-BNA, indeed. Come back in a year and see if they're still flying it.


    I imagine it's a similarly-sized market to BNA-CVG (it's hard to know for sure since the two have never had similar levels of air service at the same time), and DL couldn't make BNA-CVG work despite some connections at the CVG end and an operational need to move aircraft in and out of OO maintenance at BNA.

    And yet, ComAir ran it 8-10 times a day on the EM2, and 5-6 times a day on the CRJ.


    Comair did lots of things at CVG that wouldn't survive a minute today, like 471 flights a day on RJs out of CVG against 128 DL mainline. (2005)

    https://www.aviationpros.com/home/press ... cincinnati

    Boiler905 wrote:

    Contour needs to fly these routes more than 1x daily to allow for day-trips. That's the only way these drivable markets work. I understand DL didn't make CVG-BNA work but there were many other factors there. Contour is purely goin for the local market.



    IMHO they need out in the morning and back early evening - in both directions! - to make this work. That gets the day-trip business travelers for whom low fare is not important.
     
    FlyingElvii
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    Re: Contour Airlines adds IND-BNA/MKE/PIT, MKE-PIT

    Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:25 pm

    MIflyer12 wrote:
    FlyingElvii wrote:
    Cubsrule wrote:

    I imagine it's a similarly-sized market to BNA-CVG (it's hard to know for sure since the two have never had similar levels of air service at the same time), and DL couldn't make BNA-CVG work despite some connections at the CVG end and an operational need to move aircraft in and out of OO maintenance at BNA.

    And yet, ComAir ran it 8-10 times a day on the EM2, and 5-6 times a day on the CRJ.


    Comair did lots of things at CVG that wouldn't survive a minute today, like 471 flights a day on RJs out of CVG against 128 DL mainline. (2005)

    https://www.aviationpros.com/home/press ... cincinnati

    Boiler905 wrote:

    Contour needs to fly these routes more than 1x daily to allow for day-trips. That's the only way these drivable markets work. I understand DL didn't make CVG-BNA work but there were many other factors there. Contour is purely goin for the local market.



    IMHO they need out in the morning and back early evening - in both directions! - to make this work. That gets the day-trip business travelers for whom low fare is not important.

    For this winter, especially with the possibility of more lockdowns coming in some states, one flight a day is just fine. I am sure they intend to gear it up in the spring. Some Midwest EAS is coming up for renewal soon, and could play into it.
     
    Cubsrule
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    Re: Contour Airlines adds IND-BNA/MKE/PIT, MKE-PIT

    Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:29 pm

    FlyingElvii wrote:
    MIflyer12 wrote:
    FlyingElvii wrote:
    And yet, ComAir ran it 8-10 times a day on the EM2, and 5-6 times a day on the CRJ.


    Comair did lots of things at CVG that wouldn't survive a minute today, like 471 flights a day on RJs out of CVG against 128 DL mainline. (2005)

    https://www.aviationpros.com/home/press ... cincinnati

    Boiler905 wrote:

    Contour needs to fly these routes more than 1x daily to allow for day-trips. That's the only way these drivable markets work. I understand DL didn't make CVG-BNA work but there were many other factors there. Contour is purely goin for the local market.



    IMHO they need out in the morning and back early evening - in both directions! - to make this work. That gets the day-trip business travelers for whom low fare is not important.

    For this winter, especially with the possibility of more lockdowns coming in some states, one flight a day is just fine. I am sure they intend to gear it up in the spring. Some Midwest EAS is coming up for renewal soon, and could play into it.


    The problem is that 1/day is not competitive for a meaningful fraction of your 50-80 PDEW at high frequency.
    I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
     
    ASFlyer
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    Re: Contour Airlines adds IND-BNA/MKE/PIT, MKE-PIT

    Sat Jul 31, 2021 2:37 am

    FlyingElvii wrote:
    Cubsrule wrote:
    FlyingElvii wrote:
    And yet, ComAir ran it 8-10 times a day on the EM2, and 5-6 times a day on the CRJ.


    With what, 5 percent O&D or some such?

    The EM2 only needed 3-5 full Y pax to pay for a trip like CVG-BNA, which is not an easy drive. Sunday or Friday, you could easily have 30 Y’s, All the other pax, connections or not, was money in the bank.
    The CRJ was considerably more expensive to operate, as they eventually learned.


    I have a hard time believing the EM2 paid for a flight CVG-BNA with 3-5 full Y pax. Even at the high fares they were charging back then. The plane wasn't expensive to operate but fuel and labor alone would cost more than the revenue gained from 3-5 pax.
     
    KPWMSpotter
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    Re: Contour Airlines adds IND-BNA/MKE/PIT, MKE-PIT

    Sat Jul 31, 2021 3:58 am

    usxguy wrote:
    Didn't LF operate these routes for OneJet at one point?


    Yes, this almost seems like a reboot of the OneJet business model. OneJet's first route was IND-MKE 1x daily with a BeechJet. Their core route network was originally planned to be 1x dailys out of MKE and IND to secondary cities like this.
    I reject your reality and substitute my own...
     
    bluecrew
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    Re: Contour Airlines adds IND-BNA/MKE/PIT, MKE-PIT

    Sat Jul 31, 2021 3:20 pm

    FlyingElvii wrote:
    Cubsrule wrote:
    FlyingElvii wrote:
    And yet, ComAir ran it 8-10 times a day on the EM2, and 5-6 times a day on the CRJ.


    With what, 5 percent O&D or some such?

    The EM2 only needed 3-5 full Y pax to pay for a trip like CVG-BNA, which is not an easy drive. Sunday or Friday, you could easily have 30 Y’s, All the other pax, connections or not, was money in the bank.
    The CRJ was considerably more expensive to operate, as they eventually learned.

    How expensive do we think a clapped out 22 year old E135 is to operate compared to a brand new CRJ2 in the '90s?
    Quick look at Airfleets shows they're all ex-XJ/BTA birds, those were flown... aggressively back in the day, so lots of cycles on them.

    Unless Contour knows something the rest of us don't about Regionomics, sounds like they're there for the Indiana subsidies.

    Contour is an EAS carrier, speculating on strategy here seems counterproductive. Wave enough money at them and they will come running. EAS carriers are the cheapest date in aviation.
     
    MO11
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    Re: Contour Airlines adds IND-BNA/MKE/PIT, MKE-PIT

    Sat Jul 31, 2021 3:40 pm

    bluecrew wrote:
    FlyingElvii wrote:
    Cubsrule wrote:

    With what, 5 percent O&D or some such?



    Unless Contour knows something the rest of us don't about Regionomics, sounds like they're there for the Indiana subsidies.

    Contour is an EAS carrier, speculating on strategy here seems counterproductive. Wave enough money at them and they will come running. EAS carriers are the cheapest date in aviation.


    It does. It's a public charter. Part 135 vs Part 121 costs. And as a public charter it can't bid on EAS contracts. It has to contract with the community, which applies for AEAS funding.
     
    Cubsrule
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    Re: Contour Airlines adds IND-BNA/MKE/PIT, MKE-PIT

    Sat Jul 31, 2021 4:12 pm

    MO11 wrote:
    bluecrew wrote:
    FlyingElvii wrote:


    Unless Contour knows something the rest of us don't about Regionomics, sounds like they're there for the Indiana subsidies.

    Contour is an EAS carrier, speculating on strategy here seems counterproductive. Wave enough money at them and they will come running. EAS carriers are the cheapest date in aviation.


    It does. It's a public charter. Part 135 vs Part 121 costs. And as a public charter it can't bid on EAS contracts. It has to contract with the community, which applies for AEAS funding.


    Yeah, but it has many fewer frames across which to spread the fixed costs, so that may not be as helpful as it seems.
    I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
     
    FlyingElvii
    Posts: 1589
    Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

    Re: Contour Airlines adds IND-BNA/MKE/PIT, MKE-PIT

    Sun Aug 01, 2021 1:08 am

    Cubsrule wrote:
    MO11 wrote:
    bluecrew wrote:


    It does. It's a public charter. Part 135 vs Part 121 costs. And as a public charter it can't bid on EAS contracts. It has to contract with the community, which applies for AEAS funding.


    Yeah, but it has many fewer frames across which to spread the fixed costs, so that may not be as helpful as it seems.

    Those frames have been acquired so cheaply that it makes a huge difference.

    There are lessors who will fall to their knees right now if you sign for a 135 or 140, plenty of them are sitting in the desert at the moment.
    Cheap planes, cheap parts, cheap and plentiful engines, and still has factory support.
     
    Cubsrule
    Posts: 15260
    Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

    Re: Contour Airlines adds IND-BNA/MKE/PIT, MKE-PIT

    Sun Aug 01, 2021 1:14 am

    FlyingElvii wrote:
    Cubsrule wrote:
    MO11 wrote:

    It does. It's a public charter. Part 135 vs Part 121 costs. And as a public charter it can't bid on EAS contracts. It has to contract with the community, which applies for AEAS funding.


    Yeah, but it has many fewer frames across which to spread the fixed costs, so that may not be as helpful as it seems.

    Those frames have been acquired so cheaply that it makes a huge difference.

    There are lessors who will fall to their knees right now if you sign for a 135 or 140, plenty of them are sitting in the desert at the moment.
    Cheap planes, cheap parts, cheap and plentiful engines, and still has factory support.


    The price of the aircraft has nothing to do with 121 versus 135. A 121 carrier can also get cheap small aircraft. None have. Ask yourself why.
    I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
     
    BangersAndMash
    Posts: 227
    Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2021 5:21 pm

    Re: Contour Airlines adds IND-BNA/MKE/PIT, MKE-PIT

    Sun Aug 01, 2021 9:03 am

    Cubsrule wrote:
    FlyingElvii wrote:
    Cubsrule wrote:

    Yeah, but it has many fewer frames across which to spread the fixed costs, so that may not be as helpful as it seems.

    Those frames have been acquired so cheaply that it makes a huge difference.

    There are lessors who will fall to their knees right now if you sign for a 135 or 140, plenty of them are sitting in the desert at the moment.
    Cheap planes, cheap parts, cheap and plentiful engines, and still has factory support.


    The price of the aircraft has nothing to do with 121 versus 135. A 121 carrier can also get cheap small aircraft. None have. Ask yourself why.


    Part 121 carriers all operate for the US3 who have a stated objective to at least reduce, or even eliminate entirely, small RJs, so they're not going to add any. I'm not sure that comparison is really helpful here.
     
    Blerg
    Posts: 4988
    Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

    Re: Contour Airlines adds IND-BNA/MKE/PIT, MKE-PIT

    Sun Aug 01, 2021 10:22 am

    Never heard of this airline. Who are they and what kind of business do they run? I see they are relatively young and have a fleet of ten E145.
     
    Cubsrule
    Posts: 15260
    Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

    Re: Contour Airlines adds IND-BNA/MKE/PIT, MKE-PIT

    Sun Aug 01, 2021 12:34 pm

    BangersAndMash wrote:
    Cubsrule wrote:
    FlyingElvii wrote:
    Those frames have been acquired so cheaply that it makes a huge difference.

    There are lessors who will fall to their knees right now if you sign for a 135 or 140, plenty of them are sitting in the desert at the moment.
    Cheap planes, cheap parts, cheap and plentiful engines, and still has factory support.


    The price of the aircraft has nothing to do with 121 versus 135. A 121 carrier can also get cheap small aircraft. None have. Ask yourself why.


    Part 121 carriers all operate for the US3 who have a stated objective to at least reduce, or even eliminate entirely, small RJs, so they're not going to add any. I'm not sure that comparison is really helpful here.


    Right. They have that objective because the economics of those aircraft do not work notwithstanding the low acquisition costs, good manufacturer support, and their deep experience operating the aircraft.
    I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
     
    BangersAndMash
    Posts: 227
    Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2021 5:21 pm

    Re: Contour Airlines adds IND-BNA/MKE/PIT, MKE-PIT

    Sun Aug 01, 2021 1:15 pm

    Cubsrule wrote:
    BangersAndMash wrote:
    Cubsrule wrote:

    The price of the aircraft has nothing to do with 121 versus 135. A 121 carrier can also get cheap small aircraft. None have. Ask yourself why.


    Part 121 carriers all operate for the US3 who have a stated objective to at least reduce, or even eliminate entirely, small RJs, so they're not going to add any. I'm not sure that comparison is really helpful here.


    Right. They have that objective because the economics of those aircraft do not work notwithstanding the low acquisition costs, good manufacturer support, and their deep experience operating the aircraft.


    You know it's not that simple. For large carriers like the legacies, it's as much about opportunity cost than anything. It's not that small planes can't be profitable. It's that larger planes are more profitable. So apart from scope clauses, which might lead US3 to fly smaller planes than they actually would like, it makes sense to upgauge where possible. For a carrier like Contour, with a single aircraft type, this is not relevant. It's more about network and finding the routes that make money against your cost baseline.
     
    FlyingElvii
    Posts: 1589
    Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

    Re: Contour Airlines adds IND-BNA/MKE/PIT, MKE-PIT

    Sun Aug 01, 2021 1:47 pm

    Blerg wrote:
    Never heard of this airline. Who are they and what kind of business do they run? I see they are relatively young and have a fleet of ten E145.

    A division of Corporate Flight Management, based outside of Nashville, manages, maintains, and operates all kinds of private and commercial jets for corps, celebs, and others. Used to be a large FBO operator as well, but sold those off several years ago.

    Operating the charter division as Contour, they have been around for a while, though they have had ups and downs. They were an American Connection carrier in the distant past as well.
     
    FlyingElvii
    Posts: 1589
    Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

    Re: Contour Airlines adds IND-BNA/MKE/PIT, MKE-PIT

    Sun Aug 01, 2021 1:51 pm

    BangersAndMash wrote:
    Cubsrule wrote:
    FlyingElvii wrote:
    Those frames have been acquired so cheaply that it makes a huge difference.

    There are lessors who will fall to their knees right now if you sign for a 135 or 140, plenty of them are sitting in the desert at the moment.
    Cheap planes, cheap parts, cheap and plentiful engines, and still has factory support.


    The price of the aircraft has nothing to do with 121 versus 135. A 121 carrier can also get cheap small aircraft. None have. Ask yourself why.


    Part 121 carriers all operate for the US3 who have a stated objective to at least reduce, or even eliminate entirely, small RJs, so they're not going to add any. I'm not sure that comparison is really helpful here.

    That must be why MANA/United is restarting Expressjet, after dumping all of the expensive senior employees and crew?
     
    Blerg
    Posts: 4988
    Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

    Re: Contour Airlines adds IND-BNA/MKE/PIT, MKE-PIT

    Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:16 pm

    FlyingElvii wrote:
    Blerg wrote:
    Never heard of this airline. Who are they and what kind of business do they run? I see they are relatively young and have a fleet of ten E145.

    A division of Corporate Flight Management, based outside of Nashville, manages, maintains, and operates all kinds of private and commercial jets for corps, celebs, and others. Used to be a large FBO operator as well, but sold those off several years ago.

    Operating the charter division as Contour, they have been around for a while, though they have had ups and downs. They were an American Connection carrier in the distant past as well.


    Thank you. So they don't really operate schedule flights outside the subsidized contracts?
     
    Cubsrule
    Posts: 15260
    Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

    Re: Contour Airlines adds IND-BNA/MKE/PIT, MKE-PIT

    Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:20 pm

    FlyingElvii wrote:
    BangersAndMash wrote:
    Cubsrule wrote:

    The price of the aircraft has nothing to do with 121 versus 135. A 121 carrier can also get cheap small aircraft. None have. Ask yourself why.


    Part 121 carriers all operate for the US3 who have a stated objective to at least reduce, or even eliminate entirely, small RJs, so they're not going to add any. I'm not sure that comparison is really helpful here.

    That must be why MANA/United is restarting Expressjet, after dumping all of the expensive senior employees and crew?


    I think the idea that a carrier like Contour has a meaningful cost advantage over someone like a restarted Expressjet is a bit outdated. Everyone would be staffing the operation with pilots off the street. Everyone would use cheap ground staff and most non-hubs have plenty of gate space (BNA excepted these days, actually). Many of the fixed costs, like stores, are the same for everybody. And some of the marginal costs, like fuel, are also the same for everybody.
    I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
     
    FlyingElvii
    Posts: 1589
    Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

    Re: Contour Airlines adds IND-BNA/MKE/PIT, MKE-PIT

    Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:20 pm

    Blerg wrote:
    FlyingElvii wrote:
    Blerg wrote:
    Never heard of this airline. Who are they and what kind of business do they run? I see they are relatively young and have a fleet of ten E145.

    A division of Corporate Flight Management, based outside of Nashville, manages, maintains, and operates all kinds of private and commercial jets for corps, celebs, and others. Used to be a large FBO operator as well, but sold those off several years ago.

    Operating the charter division as Contour, they have been around for a while, though they have had ups and downs. They were an American Connection carrier in the distant past as well.


    Thank you. So they don't really operate schedule flights outside the subsidized contracts?

    Not since Covid, anyway.
     
    FlyingElvii
    Posts: 1589
    Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

    Re: Contour Airlines adds IND-BNA/MKE/PIT, MKE-PIT

    Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:33 pm

    ASFlyer wrote:
    FlyingElvii wrote:
    Cubsrule wrote:

    With what, 5 percent O&D or some such?

    The EM2 only needed 3-5 full Y pax to pay for a trip like CVG-BNA, which is not an easy drive. Sunday or Friday, you could easily have 30 Y’s, All the other pax, connections or not, was money in the bank.
    The CRJ was considerably more expensive to operate, as they eventually learned.


    I have a hard time believing the EM2 paid for a flight CVG-BNA with 3-5 full Y pax. Even at the high fares they were charging back then. The plane wasn't expensive to operate but fuel and labor alone would cost more than the revenue gained from 3-5 pax.

    Most of the EM2’s were owned outright. At a $300-400 walk up fare, and a $900-1000 an hour all-in operating cost, the math is easy. They made BIG bank flying those, not enough wheelbarrows to get all of the cash to the bank everyday. It is when the CRJ’s started arriving that the economics changed dramatically.
     
    Ionosphere
    Posts: 291
    Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2016 6:46 pm

    Re: Contour Airlines adds IND-BNA/MKE/PIT, MKE-PIT

    Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:49 pm

    FlyingElvii wrote:
    Blerg wrote:
    Never heard of this airline. Who are they and what kind of business do they run? I see they are relatively young and have a fleet of ten E145.

    A division of Corporate Flight Management, based outside of Nashville, manages, maintains, and operates all kinds of private and commercial jets for corps, celebs, and others. Used to be a large FBO operator as well, but sold those off several years ago.

    Operating the charter division as Contour, they have been around for a while, though they have had ups and downs. They were an American Connection carrier in the distant past as well.


    They were never an American Connection carrier. You might be thinking of Corporate Airlines (later RegionsAir). American Connection was the former Trans World Express carriers (Chautauqua, Corporate, Trans States).

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