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graceintheair
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Re: Condor orders Airbus A330-900neo

Thu Jul 29, 2021 9:26 am

co38 wrote:
hitower3 wrote:
RoyalBrunei757 wrote:

So, question to the audience: can we put 362 seats into an A330 using 8 abreast rows?

Hendric



Sunclass has 396 seats in 8-seat rows in their (now) single A333.

https://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Suncl ... -300_A.php


But that's an all economy configuration. Condor will be three class.
 
BrianDromey
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Re: Condor orders Airbus A330-900neo

Thu Jul 29, 2021 9:39 am

Are those underfloor toilet/crew rest areas available on the NEO? Thomas Cook had them on their A330s, maybe thats a way to get to that low fuel consumption and remain three class?
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Condor orders Airbus A330-900neo

Thu Jul 29, 2021 9:50 am

WayexTDI wrote:
Pedantics here; but it's the A330-900. A330neo is the family comprised of the -800 & -900

Not only pedantic, but pointless, as Airbus itself sometimes refers to the model as "A330-900neo" in its own communications, particularly in its earlier days.

https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... craft.html
https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... 00neo.html
Last edited by LAX772LR on Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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A320B737NGCapt
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Re: Condor orders Airbus A330-900neo

Thu Jul 29, 2021 9:59 am

RoyalBrunei757 wrote:
A320B737NGCapt wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
Honestly this is what I anticipated, but was hoping for 787s. I suspect Boeing 787 delays hurt (among other things, like price probably).

Deliveries from Fall 2022 through Mid-2024. Pretty fast!


The 787 was never in the running, it was well known the whole Thomas Cook group would transition to the A330neo, and A32X for fleet replacement. This announcement would of happened 18-24 months ago if Thomas Cook hadn’t folded and COVID-19.

I wouldn’t be surprised to see a three class layout, J 12-16 seats, W 28-25 and the rest Economy.

Your wish came true, three class confguration is confirmed, but actual layout is unknown. They will roll out new Business Class, Premium Economy Class and Economy Class. Confirmed in Airbus press release today.

https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... ation.html


No wish! I was flying the leased A332s as a technical pilot for DE in 2018/19, we were evaluating for future integration. That’s when every time the 787 I laugh, it’s just a anet rumour! Economy will be 8 abreast and premium will be 7 abreast, I’m not sure about business. 753’s will most probably get replaced with the A321NX.
 
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frigatebird
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Re: Condor orders Airbus A330-900neo

Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:27 am

Someone83 wrote:
hitower3 wrote:
RoyalBrunei757 wrote:
Your wish came true, three class confguration is confirmed, but actual layout is unknown. They will roll out new Business Class, Premium Economy Class and Economy Class. Confirmed in Airbus press release today.

https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... ation.html


Let's try to run the numbers.
The press statement claims 2,1l/pax*100km
Assuming a cruise speed of 850km/h, this would translate into 17,85l/pax*h
Assuming a density for Jet-A1 of 0,804kg/l, this is equivalent to 14,35kg/pax*h
Assuming an hourly consumption of 5,2t/h, we would need 362 passengers to make the figures match.

So, question to the audience: can we put 362 seats into an A330 using 8 abreast rows?

Hendric


Not with a business and premium economy class. As a single class aircraft: Yes

But as always…..there is slot of PR «adjustments» in these numbers ;)


Nicely put, PR «adjustments», not just in these numbers, but in the whole press release. But indeed, happens all the time, both at Airbus and Boeing :irked:

Still, it's not completely out of the question Y can remain 8ab. Premuim is in Condor's 767 7 ab, so could very well be 8ab in the A339. Business may 2-2-2, a bit like KL's current business class. And with slimline seats at 30" pitch Y could be 2-4-2, but it depends how large their premium cabins will be. Airbus apparently has found some room for a few more seats in the neo vs the classic. We'll have wait and see. 360 seats would indeed be a huge increase vs 255 seats on their 763.
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mxaxai
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Re: Condor orders Airbus A330-900neo

Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:43 am

LAX772LR wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Pedantics here; but it's the A330-900. A330neo is the family comprised of the -800 & -900

Not only pedantic, but pointless, as Airbus itself sometimes refers to the model as "A330-900neo" in its own communications, particularly in its earlier days.

It's certified as "A330-941" if you want to be really pedantic, but is marketed as either "A330-900" or "A330-900neo".
 
FluidFlow
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Re: Condor orders Airbus A330-900neo

Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:49 am

frigatebird wrote:
Someone83 wrote:
hitower3 wrote:

Let's try to run the numbers.
The press statement claims 2,1l/pax*100km
Assuming a cruise speed of 850km/h, this would translate into 17,85l/pax*h
Assuming a density for Jet-A1 of 0,804kg/l, this is equivalent to 14,35kg/pax*h
Assuming an hourly consumption of 5,2t/h, we would need 362 passengers to make the figures match.

So, question to the audience: can we put 362 seats into an A330 using 8 abreast rows?

Hendric


Not with a business and premium economy class. As a single class aircraft: Yes

But as always…..there is slot of PR «adjustments» in these numbers ;)


Nicely put, PR «adjustments», not just in these numbers, but in the whole press release. But indeed, happens all the time, both at Airbus and Boeing :irked:

Still, it's not completely out of the question Y can remain 8ab. Premuim is in Condor's 767 7 ab, so could very well be 8ab in the A339. Business may 2-2-2, a bit like KL's current business class. And with slimline seats at 30" pitch Y could be 2-4-2, but it depends how large their premium cabins will be. Airbus apparently has found some room for a few more seats in the neo vs the classic. We'll have wait and see. 360 seats would indeed be a huge increase vs 255 seats on their 763.


Also what was the stage length for the 2.1l/(pax*100km) claim?

I am pretty sure for many routes the 339 will not take off at MTOW, as cargo will be relatively limited and mostly be passenger bags.
 
BangersAndMash
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Re: Condor orders Airbus A330-900neo

Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:51 am

Nicoeddf wrote:
airbazar wrote:
BangersAndMash wrote:

The EU money is covid relief and has nothing to do with this order.

Delivery speed has likely been decisive here, with all planes due to be in fleet by late 2024. I doubt Boeing would have been able to match that.


Everything is connected, even if it's just optics. It would be a bad look if they took bailout money from the EU (after taking a bridge loan from the German government), then went and bought a brand new fleet of Boeing aircraft. Condor are not as powerful as Lufthansa. They can be persuaded.
Having said that the A339 ticks all the boxes for them and it will make even more sense when they replace the 757's with A321NEOs.


Nope, they can't be persuaded. They simply realized that as standalone leisure carrier with only around 30ish aircraft a 320fam + 330neo combination makes a lot more sense from a training & commonality perspective. And I am sure Airbus was more willing (not desperate, willing) to give Condor a fair price given where the 330 is in the market at the moment.

In any case, congrats to Condor for a much needed fleet update and congrats to Airbus for a much needed boost to the 330 program.


Thank you! Exactly, there's nothing surprising or sinister here. Their B767 needed replacing and the A330 is the better option for them financially and operationally.
 
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keesje
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Re: Condor orders Airbus A330-900neo

Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:56 am

Certainly a capacity bump, soon, from the 763ER. They are optimistic about market recovery apparently :veryhappy:

Image
https://onemileatatime.com/news/condor- ... 30-900neo/

These aircraft might open up some Asian / Latin opportunities for Condor too.

The 763ER maybe can be sold for P2C conversion, although these leisure aircraft usually amassed many hours during their operations.
Last edited by keesje on Thu Jul 29, 2021 11:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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AECM
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Re: Condor orders Airbus A330-900neo

Thu Jul 29, 2021 11:06 am

frigatebird wrote:
Someone83 wrote:
hitower3 wrote:

Let's try to run the numbers.
The press statement claims 2,1l/pax*100km
Assuming a cruise speed of 850km/h, this would translate into 17,85l/pax*h
Assuming a density for Jet-A1 of 0,804kg/l, this is equivalent to 14,35kg/pax*h
Assuming an hourly consumption of 5,2t/h, we would need 362 passengers to make the figures match.

So, question to the audience: can we put 362 seats into an A330 using 8 abreast rows?

Hendric


Not with a business and premium economy class. As a single class aircraft: Yes

But as always…..there is slot of PR «adjustments» in these numbers ;)


Nicely put, PR «adjustments», not just in these numbers, but in the whole press release. But indeed, happens all the time, both at Airbus and Boeing :irked:

Still, it's not completely out of the question Y can remain 8ab. Premuim is in Condor's 767 7 ab, so could very well be 8ab in the A339. Business may 2-2-2, a bit like KL's current business class. And with slimline seats at 30" pitch Y could be 2-4-2, but it depends how large their premium cabins will be. Airbus apparently has found some room for a few more seats in the neo vs the classic. We'll have wait and see. 360 seats would indeed be a huge increase vs 255 seats on their 763.


362 its not impossible with 3 class on a A339. Corsair has C20W21Y311 = 352 seats, 4ab for C, 7ab for W and 9 ab for Y but in those 32 seats have more pitch than the remaining ones.
I think that Condor will not go for that amount of seats and most likely will have a configuration with around 300 to 320 seats.
 
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Re: Condor orders Airbus A330-900neo

Thu Jul 29, 2021 11:23 am

keesje wrote:
Certainly a capacity bump, soon, from the 763ER. They are optimistic about market recovery apparently :veryhappy:

Image
https://onemileatatime.com/news/condor- ... 30-900neo/

These aircraft might open up some Asian / Latin opportunities for Condor too.

The 763ER maybe can be sold for P2C conversion, although these leisure aircraft usually amassed many hours during their operations.

Looks really good in Condor colours! Looking forward to seeing them in Windhoek.
 
by738
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Re: Condor orders Airbus A330-900neo

Thu Jul 29, 2021 11:39 am

Weren't those A330 underfloor toilets etc a logistical, maintenance and depreciation nightmare? Suspect thats why very few took it up and most scrapped.
 
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zeke
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Re: Condor orders Airbus A330-900neo

Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:05 pm

Jetport wrote:
Mid-2024 for last one, that may be the last one off the line. :stirthepot:


I expect 200 or more A330NEOs delivered after that date, this order should keep the production line open until the other side of COVID. It will also provide Condor the ability to launch flights to to markets open to vaccinated European tourists.
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ben7x
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Re: Condor orders Airbus A330-900neo

Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:12 pm

keesje wrote:
Certainly a capacity bump, soon, from the 763ER. They are optimistic about market recovery apparently :veryhappy:

Image
https://onemileatatime.com/news/condor- ... 30-900neo/

These aircraft might open up some Asian / Latin opportunities for Condor too.

The 763ER maybe can be sold for P2C conversion, although these leisure aircraft usually amassed many hours during their operations.


On all pictures of Condor A339, including this one, you can see, that exit 3L/R is a type A door, not the regular type C.
Most probably because they take over the AirAsia ntus.
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JerseyFlyer
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Re: Condor orders Airbus A330-900neo

Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:26 pm

Airbus will be pleased to eliminate its white tails, and see frames stuck with lessors moving onto actual leases.
 
AirbusOnly
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Re: Condor orders Airbus A330-900neo

Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:28 pm

It will be interesting to see to what extent Eurowings Discover and Condor will then match each other, as they compete both on long-haul routes and with aircraft. However, Eurowings Discover with used equipment and Condor with new equipment!
 
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Re: Condor orders Airbus A330-900neo

Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:31 pm

AirbusOnly wrote:
It will be interesting to see to what extent Eurowings Discover and Condor will then match each other, as they compete both on long-haul routes and with aircraft. However, Eurowings Discover with used equipment and Condor with new equipment!

As far as I know, both will be flying into Windhoek (where I live). Based on what I hear, and with all of one Condor flight under my belt, I will definitely be opting for Condor C class.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Condor orders Airbus A330-900neo

Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:31 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Pedantics here; but it's the A330-900. A330neo is the family comprised of the -800 & -900

Not only pedantic, but pointless, as Airbus itself sometimes refers to the model as "A330-900neo" in its own communications, particularly in its earlier days.

https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... craft.html
https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... 00neo.html

Those articles were from shortly after Airbus launched the A330neo program. Airbus refers to them, on their website, as A330-800 & A330-900; similar to what they did with the A350XWB when they dropped the "XWB" after a while because there is no other variant.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Condor orders Airbus A330-900neo

Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:37 pm

mxaxai wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Pedantics here; but it's the A330-900. A330neo is the family comprised of the -800 & -900

Not only pedantic, but pointless, as Airbus itself sometimes refers to the model as "A330-900neo" in its own communications, particularly in its earlier days.

It's certified as "A330-941" if you want to be really pedantic, but is marketed as either "A330-900" or "A330-900neo".

The "4" is the engine manufacturer (RR) and the "1" is the engine variant. As of right now, the -841 & -941 are the only variants certified; but, this moniker leaves the door open for a tweaked-out variant of the RR Trent 7000, or maybe for a new manufacturer (if/when the exclusivity contract runs out).
 
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Re: Condor orders Airbus A330-900neo

Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:54 pm

Great order for Airbus - my armchair CEO brain is saying it does seem like a big jump for Condor, but they have minds greater than mine doing the numbers

I really hope the a330neo gets more orders like this.
 
Noshow
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Re: Condor orders Airbus A330-900neo

Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:05 pm

Maybe Airbus got a little softer concerning pricing? I heard it was priced too close to the A350 before and many airlines took the big, full featured sister.
 
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Re: Condor orders Airbus A330-900neo

Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:38 pm

ben7x wrote:
keesje wrote:
Certainly a capacity bump, soon, from the 763ER. They are optimistic about market recovery apparently :veryhappy:

Image
https://onemileatatime.com/news/condor- ... 30-900neo/

These aircraft might open up some Asian / Latin opportunities for Condor too.

The 763ER maybe can be sold for P2C conversion, although these leisure aircraft usually amassed many hours during their operations.


On all pictures of Condor A339, including this one, you can see, that exit 3L/R is a type A door, not the regular type C.
Most probably because they take over the AirAsia ntus.

I suspect they are stepping into taking the large block of AirAsiaX NTUs. It isn't just the built aircraft, there is a whole supply chain in process to make their galleys, lavoratories, selected overheadbins, and seats. I have no idea if Condor accepted AirAsiaX's full configuration with color changes or not. But that was a lot of kit to move with 76 undelivered...

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BrianDromey
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Re: Condor orders Airbus A330-900neo

Thu Jul 29, 2021 2:00 pm

lightsaber wrote:
I suspect they are stepping into taking the large block of AirAsiaX NTUs. It isn't just the built aircraft, there is a whole supply chain in process to make their galleys, lavoratories, selected overheadbins, and seats. I have no idea if Condor accepted AirAsiaX's full configuration with color changes or not. But that was a lot of kit to move with 76 undelivered...


I guess they can fit whatever they like between the fixed cabin monuments like Galleys and Toilets, so maybe that is the route they will go down. Im fairly sure that they wont be taking the AirAsiaX seats, apart from the very tight 9ab layout they also lack IFE. The AirAsiaX flat-bed also looks a bit basic compared to the current Condor offering.
 
skydiamond
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Re: Condor orders Airbus A330-900neo

Thu Jul 29, 2021 2:21 pm

PM wrote:
keesje wrote:
Certainly a capacity bump, soon, from the 763ER. They are optimistic about market recovery apparently :veryhappy:

Image
https://onemileatatime.com/news/condor- ... 30-900neo/

These aircraft might open up some Asian / Latin opportunities for Condor too.

The 763ER maybe can be sold for P2C conversion, although these leisure aircraft usually amassed many hours during their operations.

Looks really good in Condor colours! Looking forward to seeing them in Windhoek.


With Condor now being independent, how settled are they with the former Thomas Cook base livery?
Maybe they will choose a brand refresh with the new flagship of the fleet?
 
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Re: Condor orders Airbus A330-900neo

Thu Jul 29, 2021 2:52 pm

There is no relationship between the government aid and the order, except that the order never would have happened without the aid.

Not that I'm criticizing either the bailout or the aid, I'm pleased that both happened.
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flee
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Re: Condor orders Airbus A330-900neo

Thu Jul 29, 2021 3:58 pm

Revelation wrote:
There is no relationship between the government aid and the order, except that the order never would have happened without the aid.

Not that I'm criticizing either the bailout or the aid, I'm pleased that both happened.

Isn't the Covid aid similar to that offered to the airlines all over the world? Without this aid, all the airlines will experience great liquidity issues and may even have gone bust.

Buying and selling aircraft is part of the activities of an airline business as aircraft are the tools of the trade. Isn't it implied that any aid an airline will receive will invariably go towards purchasing the tools of their trade?
 
DUSZRH
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Re: Condor orders Airbus A330-900neo

Thu Jul 29, 2021 4:06 pm

AaronPMI wrote:
vhtje wrote:
I'm slightly confused. Who owns Condor now? I know the LOT takeover failed, and that Attestor Capital bought 51% in May, but who owns the rest? The German state?


SG Luftffahrtgesellschat as trustee owns the other 49 percent.


Which acts as a trustee for the creditors, which is basically the federal and state government. It is fair to say that DE is still 49% government owned. As such the 330 order is not such a surprise.
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Condor orders Airbus A330-900neo

Thu Jul 29, 2021 4:43 pm

BrianDromey wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
I suspect they are stepping into taking the large block of AirAsiaX NTUs. It isn't just the built aircraft, there is a whole supply chain in process to make their galleys, lavoratories, selected overheadbins, and seats. I have no idea if Condor accepted AirAsiaX's full configuration with color changes or not. But that was a lot of kit to move with 76 undelivered...


I guess they can fit whatever they like between the fixed cabin monuments like Galleys and Toilets, so maybe that is the route they will go down. Im fairly sure that they wont be taking the AirAsiaX seats, apart from the very tight 9ab layout they also lack IFE. The AirAsiaX flat-bed also looks a bit basic compared to the current Condor offering.


It will be tempting for Condor to do a variant of the Air Asia X color scheme to save buckets of cash. AAX scheme is primarily white with accent color of an orangeish red. Change that red to a deep blue and off we go. Most passengers in the 9ab cattle class will notice the squeeze far more than the color.

A good order for both Condor and Airbus, clearing NTU's must happen for the the supply chain to get back to business. In autos, when the manufacturer needs to clear inventory are some of the best deals ever, crushing the used market prices. Probably very, very good prices in this order. This is a big wide body order for this year, there have been so few as the majority of the wide bodies are in storage.
 
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Re: Condor orders Airbus A330-900neo

Thu Jul 29, 2021 5:28 pm

flee wrote:
Isn't the Covid aid similar to that offered to the airlines all over the world? Without this aid, all the airlines will experience great liquidity issues and may even have gone bust.

Buying and selling aircraft is part of the activities of an airline business as aircraft are the tools of the trade. Isn't it implied that any aid an airline will receive will invariably go towards purchasing the tools of their trade?

Yes and yes, which is why it's strange people have a hard time acknowledging the benefit that such aid provides. This is a case where we could have seen an airline go bust but instead we see it ordering new planes, which supports both the aviation industry and the economy as a whole.
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Re: Condor orders Airbus A330-900neo

Thu Jul 29, 2021 5:44 pm

Nice looking plane. Congradulations to Condor, Airbus and the lessors. Good cashflow.
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seahawk
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Re: Condor orders Airbus A330-900neo

Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:19 pm

In the end the A330 was always the favourite, as they also aim for an all Airbus narrow body fleet. The big question was CEOs or NEOs. With the white tails and the current market and their new investors NEOs made sense.
 
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Rajahdhani
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Re: Condor orders Airbus A330-900neo

Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:55 pm

JayinKitsap wrote:
A good order for both Condor and Airbus, clearing NTU's must happen for the the supply chain to get back to business. In autos, when the manufacturer needs to clear inventory are some of the best deals ever, crushing the used market prices. Probably very, very good prices in this order. This is a big wide body order for this year, there have been so few as the majority of the wide bodies are in storage.


...to add to your point, this also now opens the carrier (as an adapter to the type, and in such a large way) - to future orders (for the type, and to future Airbus products). Exciting for, and a hearty congratulations to both parties for a well placed, and well priced solution.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Condor orders Airbus A330-900neo

Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:59 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Pedantics here; but it's the A330-900. A330neo is the family comprised of the -800 & -900

Not only pedantic, but pointless, as Airbus itself sometimes refers to the model as "A330-900neo" in its own communications, particularly in its earlier days.

Those articles were from shortly after Airbus launched the A330neo program.

....which is why I took the necessary time to write: "particularly in its earlier days"

Though, it's not limited to that.


WayexTDI wrote:
similar to what they did with the A350XWB when they dropped the "XWB" after a while because there is no other variant.

No they didn't, unless that's something that JUST happened.
I've seen them use it in press releases as recently as a month ago or so.

Example, from May 2021:
https://www.airbus.com/company/worldwid ... india.html

    "Airbus aircraft programmes (A320, A330, A350 XWB, A380 and helicopters)"
    ". . . engineering services to several Airbus programmes, including those for the A350XWB"
Last edited by LAX772LR on Thu Jul 29, 2021 7:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Condor orders Airbus A330-900neo

Thu Jul 29, 2021 7:06 pm

Revelation wrote:
flee wrote:
Isn't the Covid aid similar to that offered to the airlines all over the world? Without this aid, all the airlines will experience great liquidity issues and may even have gone bust.

Buying and selling aircraft is part of the activities of an airline business as aircraft are the tools of the trade. Isn't it implied that any aid an airline will receive will invariably go towards purchasing the tools of their trade?

Yes and yes, which is why it's strange people have a hard time acknowledging the benefit that such aid provides. This is a case where we could have seen an airline go bust but instead we see it ordering new planes, which supports both the aviation industry and the economy as a whole.


To add to your point, consider what happened over at Air Asia:

https://www.aerotime.aero/26142-government-denies-approving-242-million-loan-to-airasia-group
"There were speculations that the loan ostensibly had to be used for AirAsia’s short-term loan repayment and the airline’s capital expenditure.

Meanwhile, a few hours after publishing the statement, the spokesman of the Ministry of Finance clarified that the government has not approved neither financing nor loan guarantee to any airline.

According to the financial report, AirAsia Group suffered a $188 million loss for the first quarter of 2020, battered by a collapse in air travel demand resulting from the pandemic. Earlier in October 2020, AirAsia Group shut down its operations in Japan due to challenging operating conditions and financial difficulties. ".


To summarize the article, in response to a publicized rumor of a $242 Million Dollar Loan - the Ministry of Finance was keen to quickly clarify that no such aid, or loan agreements exist (to any airline). Had such aid been provided I wonder how much would have made their way to Airbus, or financiers - and how many of these NTUs would have been available to take on. Here's to hoping for AirAsia's return to successes, and new orders that surpass those of the past. Congrats to Airbus and to Condor again, for well placement, and pricing - and here's to a beautiful future together!
 
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MrBren
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Re: Condor orders Airbus A330-900neo

Thu Jul 29, 2021 8:45 pm

So the A339 is far from being dead, good news.
 
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LAX772LR
Posts: 14105
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Re: Condor orders Airbus A330-900neo

Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:55 am

MrBren wrote:
So the A339 is far from being dead, good news.

The only place where anyone actually assumed it was, is here.

Like the A35K and 779, it's fairly poorly timed, as the bulk of the aircraft it'd replace (A333s and 772s) have either already been replaced, or are relatively new and still have another decade of life.

But there's really nothing else that sits in its portfolio area for the OEM, so very little reason for them to discontinue offering if any time in the remotely foreseeable future.

Airlines like TK, DL, CX, CA, MU, etc still have massive A333 fleets, that this aircraft could easily be called upon to replace.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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usxguy
Posts: 1953
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 1:28 pm

Re: Condor orders Airbus A330-900neo

Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:42 am

A330-900neo capacity increase won't be a huge factor for DE if the DOCs are nearly the same as their aging 767 fleet. Maybe an extra FA or two? Definitely better fuel burn.
xx
 
Jetport
Posts: 304
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2015 4:23 pm

Re: Condor orders Airbus A330-900neo

Fri Jul 30, 2021 2:27 am

usxguy wrote:
A330-900neo capacity increase won't be a huge factor for DE if the DOCs are nearly the same as their aging 767 fleet. Maybe an extra FA or two? Definitely better fuel burn.


I believe the A330-900 burns more fuel per hour than the 767-300. Add in extra FA or 2 plus depreciation and even at the fire sale pricing I am sure Condor negotiated the result is a cost per trip that is much higher than their old 767-300's. Condor definitely needs to fill a good chunk of those extra seats on the A330-900 with paying passengers for these shiny new planes to make financial sense.
 
Niloko
Posts: 57
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2021 6:43 am

Re: Condor orders Airbus A330-900neo

Fri Jul 30, 2021 3:05 am

LAX772LR wrote:
MrBren wrote:
So the A339 is far from being dead, good news.

The only place where anyone actually assumed it was, is here.

Like the A35K and 779, it's fairly poorly timed, as the bulk of the aircraft it'd replace (A333s and 772s) have either already been replaced, or are relatively new and still have another decade of life.

But there's really nothing else that sits in its portfolio area for the OEM, so very little reason for them to discontinue offering if any time in the remotely foreseeable future.

Airlines like TK, DL, CX, CA, MU, etc still have massive A333 fleets, that this aircraft could easily be called upon to replace.

Yeah but the thing with the 351 and 779 is that the plane they're aiming to replace hasn't entered it's mass retirement age yet. In around late 2020s, these planes should have a far higher number of orders than they do now. The A330neo on the other hand has an uncertain future as many big A330ceo operators have the 787 in their fleet and a huge chunk of A330ceo have gotten quite old already. So there's still a fair amount of chance that those airlines will just use the 787 that they already have to replace all A330ceo eventually.
 
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flee
Posts: 1479
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:14 am

Re: Condor orders Airbus A330-900neo

Fri Jul 30, 2021 3:19 am

MrBren wrote:
So the A339 is far from being dead, good news.

The development cost of the A330Neo is quite low - the airframe is hardly changed except for the aerodynamic tidying up. Much of the airspace cabin is derived from the A350. The RR Tremt 7000 is derived from the Trent 1000TEN. So it is probably for Airbus and RR to keep production ticking along and score small orders every year. These can add up to a tidy amount, thus justifying the existence of this family of aircraft.

Condor has made a sound choice - the A339 will cost less than the B789. It also makes sense to pair this up with the A320Neo family for more efficient operations. By ordering 16 A339s to replace 15 B763s, they have also planned for the airline's expansion. Congratulations to Condor!
 
astuteman
Posts: 7416
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

Re: Condor orders Airbus A330-900neo

Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:00 am

Niloko wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
MrBren wrote:
So the A339 is far from being dead, good news.

The only place where anyone actually assumed it was, is here.

Like the A35K and 779, it's fairly poorly timed, as the bulk of the aircraft it'd replace (A333s and 772s) have either already been replaced, or are relatively new and still have another decade of life.

But there's really nothing else that sits in its portfolio area for the OEM, so very little reason for them to discontinue offering if any time in the remotely foreseeable future.

Airlines like TK, DL, CX, CA, MU, etc still have massive A333 fleets, that this aircraft could easily be called upon to replace.

Yeah but the thing with the 351 and 779 is that the plane they're aiming to replace hasn't entered it's mass retirement age yet. In around late 2020s, these planes should have a far higher number of orders than they do now. The A330neo on the other hand has an uncertain future as many big A330ceo operators have the 787 in their fleet and a huge chunk of A330ceo have gotten quite old already. So there's still a fair amount of chance that those airlines will just use the 787 that they already have to replace all A330ceo eventually.


Sorry, but that is not correct.
The 5 biggest years for A330 deliveries were 2011 to 2015, when over 500 were delivered.
There are 750 A330 CEO's less than 10 years old

You look at widebody deliveries overall, and there was a massive (possibly ridiculous) surge in the 2010's, with nearly 3,500 being delivered in the decade.
In 2013, 2014, and 2015, all 3 of the A330, 777, and 787 were in 3-digit delivery mode, or virtually so (99 in the case of the 777).

It is little wonder that widebody demand is particularly flat at the moment, for all types

Rgds
 
astuteman
Posts: 7416
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

Re: Condor orders Airbus A330-900neo

Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:02 am

LAX772LR wrote:
MrBren wrote:
So the A339 is far from being dead, good news.

The only place where anyone actually assumed it was, is here.

Like the A35K and 779, it's fairly poorly timed, as the bulk of the aircraft it'd replace (A333s and 772s) have either already been replaced, or are relatively new and still have another decade of life.

But there's really nothing else that sits in its portfolio area for the OEM, so very little reason for them to discontinue offering if any time in the remotely foreseeable future.

Airlines like TK, DL, CX, CA, MU, etc still have massive A333 fleets, that this aircraft could easily be called upon to replace.


I agree. The demise of all 3 of these widebody types is significantly overstated on here in my opinion, mainly due to the huge over-supply of widebodys in the last 10 years.
They're not going anywhere, and there's no reason to discontinue any of them

Rgds
 
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zkojq
Posts: 4651
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:42 am

Re: Condor orders Airbus A330-900neo

Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:51 am

Amazing - yet another order for a plane that this website keeps telling me is dead! Last time I checked the A330neo production thread it turned out that Air Belgium was getting a few. Maybe time for people to acknowledge that it is actually a good plane that can win RFPs on merit?

It seems like a natural fit for Condor - let's hope they make lots of money with them. I wonder if Sunclass will do the same in a few years time or if that ship has already sailed.

RoyalBrunei757 wrote:

MSN/ Originally intended customer/ New Customer
1. MSN 1967 AirAsia X – Unallocated (251t prototype)
2. MSN 1966 AirAsia X - Condor
3. MSN 1970 AirAsia X - Cebu Pacific
4. MSN 1971 Thai AirAsia X - Condor
5. MSN 1972 AirAsia X - Condor
6. MSN 1973 AirAsia X - Cebu Pacific
7. MSN 1976 Thai AirAsia X - Cebu Pacific


Getting closer to MSN 2000! :bouncy:

hitower3 wrote:
So, question to the audience: can we put 362 seats into an A330 using 8 abreast rows?

Hendric


Orbest has 388 seats in an 8 abreast configuration for their A330-900 fleet. So yes.
First to fly the 787-9
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 14105
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Condor orders Airbus A330-900neo

Fri Jul 30, 2021 6:36 am

Niloko wrote:
Yeah but the thing with the 351 and 779 is that the plane they're aiming to replace hasn't entered it's mass retirement age yet. In around late 2020s, these planes should have a far higher number of orders than they do now.

In case you didn't read the post you quoted-- that's the exact same position this aircraft is in as well.



Niloko wrote:
The A330neo on the other hand has an uncertain future as many big A330ceo operators have the 787

And many.... don't.



Niloko wrote:
in their fleet and a huge chunk of A330ceo have gotten quite old already. So there's still a fair amount of chance that those airlines will just use the 787 that they already have to replace all A330ceo eventually.

But for all anyone here knows, there's a "fair amount of chance" that they don't.

After all, the 787 has been in service for 10yrs, yet how many airlines have outright replaced their A333 fleet with 787? The number's not large.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
Niloko
Posts: 57
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2021 6:43 am

Re: Condor orders Airbus A330-900neo

Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:02 am

astuteman wrote:
Niloko wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
The only place where anyone actually assumed it was, is here.

Like the A35K and 779, it's fairly poorly timed, as the bulk of the aircraft it'd replace (A333s and 772s) have either already been replaced, or are relatively new and still have another decade of life.

But there's really nothing else that sits in its portfolio area for the OEM, so very little reason for them to discontinue offering if any time in the remotely foreseeable future.

Airlines like TK, DL, CX, CA, MU, etc still have massive A333 fleets, that this aircraft could easily be called upon to replace.

Yeah but the thing with the 351 and 779 is that the plane they're aiming to replace hasn't entered it's mass retirement age yet. In around late 2020s, these planes should have a far higher number of orders than they do now. The A330neo on the other hand has an uncertain future as many big A330ceo operators have the 787 in their fleet and a huge chunk of A330ceo have gotten quite old already. So there's still a fair amount of chance that those airlines will just use the 787 that they already have to replace all A330ceo eventually.


Sorry, but that is not correct.
The 5 biggest years for A330 deliveries were 2011 to 2015, when over 500 were delivered.
There are 750 A330 CEO's less than 10 years old

You look at widebody deliveries overall, and there was a massive (possibly ridiculous) surge in the 2010's, with nearly 3,500 being delivered in the decade.
In 2013, 2014, and 2015, all 3 of the A330, 777, and 787 were in 3-digit delivery mode, or virtually so (99 in the case of the 777).

It is little wonder that widebody demand is particularly flat at the moment, for all types

Rgds

Can you point out which part of my comment is not correct? There are 1400+ A330ceo passenger version built and only 750 are less than 10 years old is what your saying to me which means hundreds of A330 built (I assume around 500) are already at retirement age which like I said above is a huge chunk.
 
Niloko
Posts: 57
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2021 6:43 am

Re: Condor orders Airbus A330-900neo

Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:18 am

LAX772LR wrote:
Niloko wrote:
Yeah but the thing with the 351 and 779 is that the plane they're aiming to replace hasn't entered it's mass retirement age yet. In around late 2020s, these planes should have a far higher number of orders than they do now.

In case you didn't read the post you quoted-- that's the exact same position this aircraft is in as well.



Niloko wrote:
The A330neo on the other hand has an uncertain future as many big A330ceo operators have the 787

And many.... don't.



Niloko wrote:
in their fleet and a huge chunk of A330ceo have gotten quite old already. So there's still a fair amount of chance that those airlines will just use the 787 that they already have to replace all A330ceo eventually.

But for all anyone here knows, there's a "fair amount of chance" that they don't.

After all, the 787 has been in service for 10yrs, yet how many airlines have outright replaced their A333 fleet with 787? The number's not large.

The A330ceo has been in service for 25+ years vs 77W with around 17 years only. There are definitely far more A330 that have entered the "retirement age" than 77w. Just look at the A330ceo operators vs 777-300ER operators page and you can clearly see the massive difference in terms of the planes that have been retired. Kinda like comparing 777-300ER vs 787.

But for all anyone here knows, there's a "fair amount of chance" that they don't.

Absolutely but the chances I personally see for an A330ceo operator with a decent sized 787 fleet ordering A330neo is similar to if Japan Airlines who will be using A350-1000 along with 777-300ER in a few years orders the 777-9 in late 2020s to replace their 777-300ER fleet.
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 14105
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Condor orders Airbus A330-900neo

Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:31 am

Niloko wrote:
The A330ceo has been in service for 25+ years vs 77W with around 17 years only. There are definitely far more A330 that have entered the "retirement age" than 77w. Just look at the A330ceo operators vs 777-300ER operators page and you can clearly see the massive difference in terms of the planes that have been retired. Kinda like comparing 777-300ER vs 787.

I've no idea what you're actually attempting to argue here, and quite frankly, I'm not sure you do either:
    Yes, there were more A330 built than 77W; just as there's more A330 still flying (and thus up for eventual replacement) than 77W.

So again, what exactly is the point?



Niloko wrote:
But for all anyone here knows, there's a "fair amount of chance" that they don't.

Absolutely but the chances I personally see for an A330ceo operator with a decent sized 787 fleet ordering A330neo is similar to if Japan Airlines who will be using A350-1000 along with 777-300ER in a few years orders the 777-9 in late 2020s to replace their 777-300ER fleet.

....huh?
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
astuteman
Posts: 7416
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

Re: Condor orders Airbus A330-900neo

Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:46 am

Niloko wrote:
astuteman wrote:
Niloko wrote:
Yeah but the thing with the 351 and 779 is that the plane they're aiming to replace hasn't entered it's mass retirement age yet. In around late 2020s, these planes should have a far higher number of orders than they do now. The A330neo on the other hand has an uncertain future as many big A330ceo operators have the 787 in their fleet and a huge chunk of A330ceo have gotten quite old already. So there's still a fair amount of chance that those airlines will just use the 787 that they already have to replace all A330ceo eventually.


Sorry, but that is not correct.
The 5 biggest years for A330 deliveries were 2011 to 2015, when over 500 were delivered.
There are 750 A330 CEO's less than 10 years old

You look at widebody deliveries overall, and there was a massive (possibly ridiculous) surge in the 2010's, with nearly 3,500 being delivered in the decade.
In 2013, 2014, and 2015, all 3 of the A330, 777, and 787 were in 3-digit delivery mode, or virtually so (99 in the case of the 777).

It is little wonder that widebody demand is particularly flat at the moment, for all types

Rgds

Can you point out which part of my comment is not correct? There are 1400+ A330ceo passenger version built and only 750 are less than 10 years old is what your saying to me which means hundreds of A330 built (I assume around 500) are already at retirement age which like I said above is a huge chunk.


Apologies Niloko.
Clumsy wording on my part.
It is a reality that 2/3 of the widebody deliveries over the last 20 years have been in the last 10 years.
What in my opinion, is not correct, is that the planes that the A330NEO might replace are in mass retirement now.
2 out of every 3 are less than 10 years old.
The A330NEO has a long way to go before the "fat lady sings" in my opinion

Rgds
 
majano
Posts: 344
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:45 am

Re: Condor orders Airbus A330-900neo

Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:00 am

Niloko wrote:
astuteman wrote:
Niloko wrote:
Yeah but the thing with the 351 and 779 is that the plane they're aiming to replace hasn't entered it's mass retirement age yet. In around late 2020s, these planes should have a far higher number of orders than they do now. The A330neo on the other hand has an uncertain future as many big A330ceo operators have the 787 in their fleet and a huge chunk of A330ceo have gotten quite old already. So there's still a fair amount of chance that those airlines will just use the 787 that they already have to replace all A330ceo eventually.


Sorry, but that is not correct.
The 5 biggest years for A330 deliveries were 2011 to 2015, when over 500 were delivered.
There are 750 A330 CEO's less than 10 years old

You look at widebody deliveries overall, and there was a massive (possibly ridiculous) surge in the 2010's, with nearly 3,500 being delivered in the decade.
In 2013, 2014, and 2015, all 3 of the A330, 777, and 787 were in 3-digit delivery mode, or virtually so (99 in the case of the 777).

It is little wonder that widebody demand is particularly flat at the moment, for all types

Rgds

Can you point out which part of my comment is not correct? There are 1400+ A330ceo passenger version built and only 750 are less than 10 years old is what your saying to me which means hundreds of A330 built (I assume around 500) are already at retirement age which like I said above is a huge chunk.

Using imprecise phrases such as "huge chunk" gets you here. What were you trying to say? A majority? Clearly that would be incorrect.
 
JayinKitsap
Posts: 2565
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 9:55 am

Re: Condor orders Airbus A330-900neo

Fri Jul 30, 2021 9:05 am

astuteman wrote:
You look at widebody deliveries overall, and there was a massive (possibly ridiculous) surge in the 2010's, with nearly 3,500 being delivered in the decade.
In 2013, 2014, and 2015, all 3 of the A330, 777, and 787 were in 3-digit delivery mode, or virtually so (99 in the case of the 777).

It is little wonder that widebody demand is particularly flat at the moment, for all types

Rgds

Plus around 250 A380's and a good number 744 & 748 over the decade.

The market was probably quite tight for planes in 2010, this surge over a decade has put it into oversupply for many years to come.

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