Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
co38 wrote:hitower3 wrote:RoyalBrunei757 wrote:
So, question to the audience: can we put 362 seats into an A330 using 8 abreast rows?
Hendric
Sunclass has 396 seats in 8-seat rows in their (now) single A333.
https://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Suncl ... -300_A.php
WayexTDI wrote:Pedantics here; but it's the A330-900. A330neo is the family comprised of the -800 & -900
RoyalBrunei757 wrote:A320B737NGCapt wrote:jbs2886 wrote:Honestly this is what I anticipated, but was hoping for 787s. I suspect Boeing 787 delays hurt (among other things, like price probably).
Deliveries from Fall 2022 through Mid-2024. Pretty fast!
The 787 was never in the running, it was well known the whole Thomas Cook group would transition to the A330neo, and A32X for fleet replacement. This announcement would of happened 18-24 months ago if Thomas Cook hadn’t folded and COVID-19.
I wouldn’t be surprised to see a three class layout, J 12-16 seats, W 28-25 and the rest Economy.
Your wish came true, three class confguration is confirmed, but actual layout is unknown. They will roll out new Business Class, Premium Economy Class and Economy Class. Confirmed in Airbus press release today.
https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... ation.html
Someone83 wrote:hitower3 wrote:RoyalBrunei757 wrote:Your wish came true, three class confguration is confirmed, but actual layout is unknown. They will roll out new Business Class, Premium Economy Class and Economy Class. Confirmed in Airbus press release today.
https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... ation.html
Let's try to run the numbers.
The press statement claims 2,1l/pax*100km
Assuming a cruise speed of 850km/h, this would translate into 17,85l/pax*h
Assuming a density for Jet-A1 of 0,804kg/l, this is equivalent to 14,35kg/pax*h
Assuming an hourly consumption of 5,2t/h, we would need 362 passengers to make the figures match.
So, question to the audience: can we put 362 seats into an A330 using 8 abreast rows?
Hendric
Not with a business and premium economy class. As a single class aircraft: Yes
But as always…..there is slot of PR «adjustments» in these numbers
LAX772LR wrote:WayexTDI wrote:Pedantics here; but it's the A330-900. A330neo is the family comprised of the -800 & -900
Not only pedantic, but pointless, as Airbus itself sometimes refers to the model as "A330-900neo" in its own communications, particularly in its earlier days.
frigatebird wrote:Someone83 wrote:hitower3 wrote:
Let's try to run the numbers.
The press statement claims 2,1l/pax*100km
Assuming a cruise speed of 850km/h, this would translate into 17,85l/pax*h
Assuming a density for Jet-A1 of 0,804kg/l, this is equivalent to 14,35kg/pax*h
Assuming an hourly consumption of 5,2t/h, we would need 362 passengers to make the figures match.
So, question to the audience: can we put 362 seats into an A330 using 8 abreast rows?
Hendric
Not with a business and premium economy class. As a single class aircraft: Yes
But as always…..there is slot of PR «adjustments» in these numbers
Nicely put, PR «adjustments», not just in these numbers, but in the whole press release. But indeed, happens all the time, both at Airbus and Boeing
Still, it's not completely out of the question Y can remain 8ab. Premuim is in Condor's 767 7 ab, so could very well be 8ab in the A339. Business may 2-2-2, a bit like KL's current business class. And with slimline seats at 30" pitch Y could be 2-4-2, but it depends how large their premium cabins will be. Airbus apparently has found some room for a few more seats in the neo vs the classic. We'll have wait and see. 360 seats would indeed be a huge increase vs 255 seats on their 763.
Nicoeddf wrote:airbazar wrote:BangersAndMash wrote:
The EU money is covid relief and has nothing to do with this order.
Delivery speed has likely been decisive here, with all planes due to be in fleet by late 2024. I doubt Boeing would have been able to match that.
Everything is connected, even if it's just optics. It would be a bad look if they took bailout money from the EU (after taking a bridge loan from the German government), then went and bought a brand new fleet of Boeing aircraft. Condor are not as powerful as Lufthansa. They can be persuaded.
Having said that the A339 ticks all the boxes for them and it will make even more sense when they replace the 757's with A321NEOs.
Nope, they can't be persuaded. They simply realized that as standalone leisure carrier with only around 30ish aircraft a 320fam + 330neo combination makes a lot more sense from a training & commonality perspective. And I am sure Airbus was more willing (not desperate, willing) to give Condor a fair price given where the 330 is in the market at the moment.
In any case, congrats to Condor for a much needed fleet update and congrats to Airbus for a much needed boost to the 330 program.
frigatebird wrote:Someone83 wrote:hitower3 wrote:
Let's try to run the numbers.
The press statement claims 2,1l/pax*100km
Assuming a cruise speed of 850km/h, this would translate into 17,85l/pax*h
Assuming a density for Jet-A1 of 0,804kg/l, this is equivalent to 14,35kg/pax*h
Assuming an hourly consumption of 5,2t/h, we would need 362 passengers to make the figures match.
So, question to the audience: can we put 362 seats into an A330 using 8 abreast rows?
Hendric
Not with a business and premium economy class. As a single class aircraft: Yes
But as always…..there is slot of PR «adjustments» in these numbers
Nicely put, PR «adjustments», not just in these numbers, but in the whole press release. But indeed, happens all the time, both at Airbus and Boeing
Still, it's not completely out of the question Y can remain 8ab. Premuim is in Condor's 767 7 ab, so could very well be 8ab in the A339. Business may 2-2-2, a bit like KL's current business class. And with slimline seats at 30" pitch Y could be 2-4-2, but it depends how large their premium cabins will be. Airbus apparently has found some room for a few more seats in the neo vs the classic. We'll have wait and see. 360 seats would indeed be a huge increase vs 255 seats on their 763.
keesje wrote:Certainly a capacity bump, soon, from the 763ER. They are optimistic about market recovery apparently
https://onemileatatime.com/news/condor- ... 30-900neo/
These aircraft might open up some Asian / Latin opportunities for Condor too.
The 763ER maybe can be sold for P2C conversion, although these leisure aircraft usually amassed many hours during their operations.
Jetport wrote:Mid-2024 for last one, that may be the last one off the line.
keesje wrote:Certainly a capacity bump, soon, from the 763ER. They are optimistic about market recovery apparently
https://onemileatatime.com/news/condor- ... 30-900neo/
These aircraft might open up some Asian / Latin opportunities for Condor too.
The 763ER maybe can be sold for P2C conversion, although these leisure aircraft usually amassed many hours during their operations.
AirbusOnly wrote:It will be interesting to see to what extent Eurowings Discover and Condor will then match each other, as they compete both on long-haul routes and with aircraft. However, Eurowings Discover with used equipment and Condor with new equipment!
LAX772LR wrote:WayexTDI wrote:Pedantics here; but it's the A330-900. A330neo is the family comprised of the -800 & -900
Not only pedantic, but pointless, as Airbus itself sometimes refers to the model as "A330-900neo" in its own communications, particularly in its earlier days.
https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... craft.html
https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... 00neo.html
mxaxai wrote:LAX772LR wrote:WayexTDI wrote:Pedantics here; but it's the A330-900. A330neo is the family comprised of the -800 & -900
Not only pedantic, but pointless, as Airbus itself sometimes refers to the model as "A330-900neo" in its own communications, particularly in its earlier days.
It's certified as "A330-941" if you want to be really pedantic, but is marketed as either "A330-900" or "A330-900neo".
ben7x wrote:keesje wrote:Certainly a capacity bump, soon, from the 763ER. They are optimistic about market recovery apparently
https://onemileatatime.com/news/condor- ... 30-900neo/
These aircraft might open up some Asian / Latin opportunities for Condor too.
The 763ER maybe can be sold for P2C conversion, although these leisure aircraft usually amassed many hours during their operations.
On all pictures of Condor A339, including this one, you can see, that exit 3L/R is a type A door, not the regular type C.
Most probably because they take over the AirAsia ntus.
lightsaber wrote:I suspect they are stepping into taking the large block of AirAsiaX NTUs. It isn't just the built aircraft, there is a whole supply chain in process to make their galleys, lavoratories, selected overheadbins, and seats. I have no idea if Condor accepted AirAsiaX's full configuration with color changes or not. But that was a lot of kit to move with 76 undelivered...
PM wrote:keesje wrote:Certainly a capacity bump, soon, from the 763ER. They are optimistic about market recovery apparently
https://onemileatatime.com/news/condor- ... 30-900neo/
These aircraft might open up some Asian / Latin opportunities for Condor too.
The 763ER maybe can be sold for P2C conversion, although these leisure aircraft usually amassed many hours during their operations.
Looks really good in Condor colours! Looking forward to seeing them in Windhoek.
Revelation wrote:There is no relationship between the government aid and the order, except that the order never would have happened without the aid.
Not that I'm criticizing either the bailout or the aid, I'm pleased that both happened.
AaronPMI wrote:vhtje wrote:I'm slightly confused. Who owns Condor now? I know the LOT takeover failed, and that Attestor Capital bought 51% in May, but who owns the rest? The German state?
SG Luftffahrtgesellschat as trustee owns the other 49 percent.
BrianDromey wrote:lightsaber wrote:I suspect they are stepping into taking the large block of AirAsiaX NTUs. It isn't just the built aircraft, there is a whole supply chain in process to make their galleys, lavoratories, selected overheadbins, and seats. I have no idea if Condor accepted AirAsiaX's full configuration with color changes or not. But that was a lot of kit to move with 76 undelivered...
I guess they can fit whatever they like between the fixed cabin monuments like Galleys and Toilets, so maybe that is the route they will go down. Im fairly sure that they wont be taking the AirAsiaX seats, apart from the very tight 9ab layout they also lack IFE. The AirAsiaX flat-bed also looks a bit basic compared to the current Condor offering.
flee wrote:Isn't the Covid aid similar to that offered to the airlines all over the world? Without this aid, all the airlines will experience great liquidity issues and may even have gone bust.
Buying and selling aircraft is part of the activities of an airline business as aircraft are the tools of the trade. Isn't it implied that any aid an airline will receive will invariably go towards purchasing the tools of their trade?
JayinKitsap wrote:A good order for both Condor and Airbus, clearing NTU's must happen for the the supply chain to get back to business. In autos, when the manufacturer needs to clear inventory are some of the best deals ever, crushing the used market prices. Probably very, very good prices in this order. This is a big wide body order for this year, there have been so few as the majority of the wide bodies are in storage.
WayexTDI wrote:LAX772LR wrote:WayexTDI wrote:Pedantics here; but it's the A330-900. A330neo is the family comprised of the -800 & -900
Not only pedantic, but pointless, as Airbus itself sometimes refers to the model as "A330-900neo" in its own communications, particularly in its earlier days.
Those articles were from shortly after Airbus launched the A330neo program.
WayexTDI wrote:similar to what they did with the A350XWB when they dropped the "XWB" after a while because there is no other variant.
Revelation wrote:flee wrote:Isn't the Covid aid similar to that offered to the airlines all over the world? Without this aid, all the airlines will experience great liquidity issues and may even have gone bust.
Buying and selling aircraft is part of the activities of an airline business as aircraft are the tools of the trade. Isn't it implied that any aid an airline will receive will invariably go towards purchasing the tools of their trade?
Yes and yes, which is why it's strange people have a hard time acknowledging the benefit that such aid provides. This is a case where we could have seen an airline go bust but instead we see it ordering new planes, which supports both the aviation industry and the economy as a whole.
https://www.aerotime.aero/26142-government-denies-approving-242-million-loan-to-airasia-group
"There were speculations that the loan ostensibly had to be used for AirAsia’s short-term loan repayment and the airline’s capital expenditure.
Meanwhile, a few hours after publishing the statement, the spokesman of the Ministry of Finance clarified that the government has not approved neither financing nor loan guarantee to any airline.
According to the financial report, AirAsia Group suffered a $188 million loss for the first quarter of 2020, battered by a collapse in air travel demand resulting from the pandemic. Earlier in October 2020, AirAsia Group shut down its operations in Japan due to challenging operating conditions and financial difficulties. ".
MrBren wrote:So the A339 is far from being dead, good news.
usxguy wrote:A330-900neo capacity increase won't be a huge factor for DE if the DOCs are nearly the same as their aging 767 fleet. Maybe an extra FA or two? Definitely better fuel burn.
LAX772LR wrote:MrBren wrote:So the A339 is far from being dead, good news.
The only place where anyone actually assumed it was, is here.
Like the A35K and 779, it's fairly poorly timed, as the bulk of the aircraft it'd replace (A333s and 772s) have either already been replaced, or are relatively new and still have another decade of life.
But there's really nothing else that sits in its portfolio area for the OEM, so very little reason for them to discontinue offering if any time in the remotely foreseeable future.
Airlines like TK, DL, CX, CA, MU, etc still have massive A333 fleets, that this aircraft could easily be called upon to replace.
MrBren wrote:So the A339 is far from being dead, good news.
Niloko wrote:LAX772LR wrote:MrBren wrote:So the A339 is far from being dead, good news.
The only place where anyone actually assumed it was, is here.
Like the A35K and 779, it's fairly poorly timed, as the bulk of the aircraft it'd replace (A333s and 772s) have either already been replaced, or are relatively new and still have another decade of life.
But there's really nothing else that sits in its portfolio area for the OEM, so very little reason for them to discontinue offering if any time in the remotely foreseeable future.
Airlines like TK, DL, CX, CA, MU, etc still have massive A333 fleets, that this aircraft could easily be called upon to replace.
Yeah but the thing with the 351 and 779 is that the plane they're aiming to replace hasn't entered it's mass retirement age yet. In around late 2020s, these planes should have a far higher number of orders than they do now. The A330neo on the other hand has an uncertain future as many big A330ceo operators have the 787 in their fleet and a huge chunk of A330ceo have gotten quite old already. So there's still a fair amount of chance that those airlines will just use the 787 that they already have to replace all A330ceo eventually.
LAX772LR wrote:MrBren wrote:So the A339 is far from being dead, good news.
The only place where anyone actually assumed it was, is here.
Like the A35K and 779, it's fairly poorly timed, as the bulk of the aircraft it'd replace (A333s and 772s) have either already been replaced, or are relatively new and still have another decade of life.
But there's really nothing else that sits in its portfolio area for the OEM, so very little reason for them to discontinue offering if any time in the remotely foreseeable future.
Airlines like TK, DL, CX, CA, MU, etc still have massive A333 fleets, that this aircraft could easily be called upon to replace.
RoyalBrunei757 wrote:
MSN/ Originally intended customer/ New Customer
1. MSN 1967 AirAsia X – Unallocated (251t prototype)
2. MSN 1966 AirAsia X - Condor
3. MSN 1970 AirAsia X - Cebu Pacific
4. MSN 1971 Thai AirAsia X - Condor
5. MSN 1972 AirAsia X - Condor
6. MSN 1973 AirAsia X - Cebu Pacific
7. MSN 1976 Thai AirAsia X - Cebu Pacific
hitower3 wrote:So, question to the audience: can we put 362 seats into an A330 using 8 abreast rows?
Hendric
Niloko wrote:Yeah but the thing with the 351 and 779 is that the plane they're aiming to replace hasn't entered it's mass retirement age yet. In around late 2020s, these planes should have a far higher number of orders than they do now.
Niloko wrote:The A330neo on the other hand has an uncertain future as many big A330ceo operators have the 787
Niloko wrote:in their fleet and a huge chunk of A330ceo have gotten quite old already. So there's still a fair amount of chance that those airlines will just use the 787 that they already have to replace all A330ceo eventually.
astuteman wrote:Niloko wrote:LAX772LR wrote:The only place where anyone actually assumed it was, is here.
Like the A35K and 779, it's fairly poorly timed, as the bulk of the aircraft it'd replace (A333s and 772s) have either already been replaced, or are relatively new and still have another decade of life.
But there's really nothing else that sits in its portfolio area for the OEM, so very little reason for them to discontinue offering if any time in the remotely foreseeable future.
Airlines like TK, DL, CX, CA, MU, etc still have massive A333 fleets, that this aircraft could easily be called upon to replace.
Yeah but the thing with the 351 and 779 is that the plane they're aiming to replace hasn't entered it's mass retirement age yet. In around late 2020s, these planes should have a far higher number of orders than they do now. The A330neo on the other hand has an uncertain future as many big A330ceo operators have the 787 in their fleet and a huge chunk of A330ceo have gotten quite old already. So there's still a fair amount of chance that those airlines will just use the 787 that they already have to replace all A330ceo eventually.
Sorry, but that is not correct.
The 5 biggest years for A330 deliveries were 2011 to 2015, when over 500 were delivered.
There are 750 A330 CEO's less than 10 years old
You look at widebody deliveries overall, and there was a massive (possibly ridiculous) surge in the 2010's, with nearly 3,500 being delivered in the decade.
In 2013, 2014, and 2015, all 3 of the A330, 777, and 787 were in 3-digit delivery mode, or virtually so (99 in the case of the 777).
It is little wonder that widebody demand is particularly flat at the moment, for all types
Rgds
LAX772LR wrote:Niloko wrote:Yeah but the thing with the 351 and 779 is that the plane they're aiming to replace hasn't entered it's mass retirement age yet. In around late 2020s, these planes should have a far higher number of orders than they do now.
In case you didn't read the post you quoted-- that's the exact same position this aircraft is in as well.Niloko wrote:The A330neo on the other hand has an uncertain future as many big A330ceo operators have the 787
And many.... don't.Niloko wrote:in their fleet and a huge chunk of A330ceo have gotten quite old already. So there's still a fair amount of chance that those airlines will just use the 787 that they already have to replace all A330ceo eventually.
But for all anyone here knows, there's a "fair amount of chance" that they don't.
After all, the 787 has been in service for 10yrs, yet how many airlines have outright replaced their A333 fleet with 787? The number's not large.
But for all anyone here knows, there's a "fair amount of chance" that they don't.
Niloko wrote:The A330ceo has been in service for 25+ years vs 77W with around 17 years only. There are definitely far more A330 that have entered the "retirement age" than 77w. Just look at the A330ceo operators vs 777-300ER operators page and you can clearly see the massive difference in terms of the planes that have been retired. Kinda like comparing 777-300ER vs 787.
Niloko wrote:But for all anyone here knows, there's a "fair amount of chance" that they don't.
Absolutely but the chances I personally see for an A330ceo operator with a decent sized 787 fleet ordering A330neo is similar to if Japan Airlines who will be using A350-1000 along with 777-300ER in a few years orders the 777-9 in late 2020s to replace their 777-300ER fleet.
Niloko wrote:astuteman wrote:Niloko wrote:Yeah but the thing with the 351 and 779 is that the plane they're aiming to replace hasn't entered it's mass retirement age yet. In around late 2020s, these planes should have a far higher number of orders than they do now. The A330neo on the other hand has an uncertain future as many big A330ceo operators have the 787 in their fleet and a huge chunk of A330ceo have gotten quite old already. So there's still a fair amount of chance that those airlines will just use the 787 that they already have to replace all A330ceo eventually.
Sorry, but that is not correct.
The 5 biggest years for A330 deliveries were 2011 to 2015, when over 500 were delivered.
There are 750 A330 CEO's less than 10 years old
You look at widebody deliveries overall, and there was a massive (possibly ridiculous) surge in the 2010's, with nearly 3,500 being delivered in the decade.
In 2013, 2014, and 2015, all 3 of the A330, 777, and 787 were in 3-digit delivery mode, or virtually so (99 in the case of the 777).
It is little wonder that widebody demand is particularly flat at the moment, for all types
Rgds
Can you point out which part of my comment is not correct? There are 1400+ A330ceo passenger version built and only 750 are less than 10 years old is what your saying to me which means hundreds of A330 built (I assume around 500) are already at retirement age which like I said above is a huge chunk.
Niloko wrote:astuteman wrote:Niloko wrote:Yeah but the thing with the 351 and 779 is that the plane they're aiming to replace hasn't entered it's mass retirement age yet. In around late 2020s, these planes should have a far higher number of orders than they do now. The A330neo on the other hand has an uncertain future as many big A330ceo operators have the 787 in their fleet and a huge chunk of A330ceo have gotten quite old already. So there's still a fair amount of chance that those airlines will just use the 787 that they already have to replace all A330ceo eventually.
Sorry, but that is not correct.
The 5 biggest years for A330 deliveries were 2011 to 2015, when over 500 were delivered.
There are 750 A330 CEO's less than 10 years old
You look at widebody deliveries overall, and there was a massive (possibly ridiculous) surge in the 2010's, with nearly 3,500 being delivered in the decade.
In 2013, 2014, and 2015, all 3 of the A330, 777, and 787 were in 3-digit delivery mode, or virtually so (99 in the case of the 777).
It is little wonder that widebody demand is particularly flat at the moment, for all types
Rgds
Can you point out which part of my comment is not correct? There are 1400+ A330ceo passenger version built and only 750 are less than 10 years old is what your saying to me which means hundreds of A330 built (I assume around 500) are already at retirement age which like I said above is a huge chunk.
astuteman wrote:You look at widebody deliveries overall, and there was a massive (possibly ridiculous) surge in the 2010's, with nearly 3,500 being delivered in the decade.
In 2013, 2014, and 2015, all 3 of the A330, 777, and 787 were in 3-digit delivery mode, or virtually so (99 in the case of the 777).
It is little wonder that widebody demand is particularly flat at the moment, for all types
Rgds
