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tphuang
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JetBlue/JMP going forward with JFK terminal 6 project

Tue Aug 03, 2021 3:14 pm

New release from both NYS/Gov Cuomo
https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/govern ... ort-resume

and Jetblue
http://otp.investis.com/clients/us/jetb ... wsid=76563

Notice the price tag went up from $3 to $3.9 billion. Things aren't cheap here. Looks like the scope of project is mostly unchanged. Project will start in 2022. Terminal 7 will be demolished as originally planned. First gate planned in 2025.

Also, JetBlue commits to staying in NYC. It will completely relocate to Terminal B at LGA in 2022. And Terminal A at EWR in 2022.
 
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Rajahdhani
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Re: JetBlue/JMP going forward with JFK terminal 6 project

Tue Aug 03, 2021 3:24 pm

To further expand on your point (and really, thank you for being as explicit to begin with):

http://otp.investis.com/clients/us/jetblue_airways/usn/usnews-story.aspx?cid=981&newsid=76563"The Terminal 6 project will be developed and operated by JFK Millennium Partners (JMP), a private consortium comprised of JetBlue; Vantage Airport Group, an industry leading investor, developer and manager of award-winning global airport projects, including as a member of the consortium that built LaGuardia Airport’s new Terminal B; American Triple I (ATI), a 100% minority- and woman-owned investor, owner, developer, and manager of infrastructure assets and infrastructure focused companies that seek to spur economic growth and development in markets across the U.S.; and RXR Realty, a leading New York-based real estate operating and development company.

JetBlue will also expand its footprint at LaGuardia Airport beyond its current space at the historic Marine Air Terminal and partially move into the airport’s recently opened and state-of-the-art Terminal B later this year with plans to move completely in 2022. At Newark, JetBlue will also move, relocating to the new Terminal A in 2022."


Not only a major congratulations to JetBlue in the medium/long term, but also good luck as they navigate their impressive 2022.
When completed, what other carriers will offer as much in the way of offerings to New York City?

http://otp.investis.com/clients/us/jetblue_airways/usn/usnews-story.aspx?cid=981&newsid=76563"JetBlue plans to stay at its current home in the Brewster Building at 27-01 Queens Plaza North in Long Island City, where the company has been based since 2012 and is home to its iconic rooftop sign. JetBlue intends to negotiate and execute a lease over the next few months and then re-design its office space to be responsive to rapidly evolving workplace trends that have accelerated during the pandemic. The Brewster Building was built in 1911 and is where the Brewster Aeronautical Company manufactured the Brewster F2A (a.k.a. The Brewster Buffalo), the first monoplane fighter airplane used by the U.S. Navy in World War II."


Thanks again for the article, and this gem.
Last edited by Rajahdhani on Tue Aug 03, 2021 3:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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STT757
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Re: JetBlue/JMP going forward with JFK terminal 6 project

Tue Aug 03, 2021 3:28 pm

$3.9 Billion for ten gates?
 
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Rajahdhani
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Re: JetBlue/JMP going forward with JFK terminal 6 project

Tue Aug 03, 2021 3:43 pm

STT757 wrote:
$3.9 Billion for ten gates?


http://otp.investis.com/clients/us/jetblue_airways/usn/usnews-story.aspx?cid=981&newsid=76563The $3.9 billion, 1.2 million square foot terminal is set to replace aging existing facilities, and will be designed to accommodate both wide-body gates and narrow-body gates, as well as bright and airy check-in halls and arrival spaces designed to enhance the customer experience. Customers will enjoy more than 100,000 square feet of commercial dining and retail amenities, lounges, and recreational spaces. The new terminal will also include critical infrastructure improvements to the airport’s roadways, optimizing traffic flow and transportation access at the airport, and incorporate the latest advances in both sustainability and security.

According to the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, the development of Terminal 6 is expected to result in over 4,000 direct jobs (both on-site and off-site) and direct payroll wages of $1.9 billion. The total economic activity impact from the project amounts to nearly $2.8 billion in total wages and $6.3 billion in total economic activity.

“We set out to support the governor’s vision to modernize JFK into a world-class airport,” Hayes said. “Terminal 5 has been a huge success, and we are so pleased to have an opportunity to expand our presence with new gates in a new terminal. The team putting this project together is setting out to develop a terminal that New Yorkers can be proud of.”


It's alot to read - and perhaps doesn't even address your point - such a high price/gate ratio - however, the article offers the airlines/state's (or, rather, however Port Authority can be classified/clarified better by locals or more knowledgable parties here) ethos/rationale for the project.

EDIT:

http://otp.investis.com/clients/us/jetblue_airways/usn/usnews-story.aspx?cid=981&newsid=76563"The new terminal will connect to Terminal 5 and be equipped with capacity for ten new gates,"


Perhaps @tphuang may be onto something here and/or can expand on the point (to help us better relative costs);

tphuang wrote:
Notice the price tag went up from $3 to $3.9 billion. Things aren't cheap here. Looks like the scope of project is mostly unchanged...


So, if:

http://otp.investis.com/clients/us/jetblue_airways/usn/usnews-story.aspx?cid=981&newsid=76563 "The Terminal 6 project will be developed and operated by JFK Millennium Partners (JMP), a private consortium comprised of JetBlue; Vantage Airport Group, an industry leading investor, developer and manager of award-winning global airport projects, including as a member of the consortium that built LaGuardia Airport’s new Terminal B".


How is that project costed/being managed? Could we base their job performance there, and extrapolate that to the new terminal project at JFK? What are some of the key factors that would change costs, or create differences - between the two projects?
 
tphuang
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Re: JetBlue/JMP going forward with JFK terminal 6 project

Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:04 pm

STT757 wrote:
$3.9 Billion for ten gates?


Just the cost of doing business in NYC and checking off every box to make the politicians and the voters happy.

There will be plenty of gates to operate every slot that they have. The new gates should all be widebody and allow them to rent out space to a lot of higher end airlines like EK. I'm no sure if the new terminal 1 will be reduced in scope, but AA and DL have already gone down the cheap route. I won't be surprised if new T-1 is reduced in scope. In which case the new T-6 will be the nicest facility in JFK and possibly NYC. I'm glad they didn't go cheap.

It will allow JetBlue to market itself as the most high end carrier in NYC. That along with becoming the largest carrier in JFK, flying long haul and having access to all the big corporate players through AA, the goal here has to be achieving parity with Delta in yield while having much lower cost.

Even aside from that, having control of this huge facility adds to company value and gives them significant leverage vs any airline looking to get into JFK.
 
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jetblastdubai
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Re: JetBlue/JMP going forward with JFK terminal 6 project

Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:05 pm

From the article:

“JetBlue has laid out plans for incredible growth in JFK, LaGuardia and Newark, driven by our new alliance with American Airlines,” Hayes said.

Are there going to be new slots created to allow for this "incredible growth" or is AA shedding some slots? I don't see how EWR can remain relatively slot-free indefinitely with it's on-time performance ranking near the bottom most months...even before the runway closure/construction work.
 
Moosefire
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Re: JetBlue/JMP going forward with JFK terminal 6 project

Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:19 pm

STT757 wrote:
$3.9 Billion for ten gates?


Pretty incredible considering Terminal 5 came in at just around $1 billion in 2008 for 26 gates.
 
phatfarmlines
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Re: JetBlue/JMP going forward with JFK terminal 6 project

Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:39 pm

tphuang wrote:

Notice the price tag went up from $3 to $3.9 billion. Things aren't cheap here. Looks like the scope of project is mostly unchanged. Project will start in 2022. Terminal 7 will be demolished as originally planned. First gate planned in 2025.

Also, JetBlue commits to staying in NYC. It will completely relocate to Terminal B at LGA in 2022. And Terminal A at EWR in 2022.


The renegotiated lease must have been that impressive that B6 kept the HQ in Queens instead of moving down to Florida.

STT757 wrote:
$3.9 Billion for ten gates?


Between old T6 Sundrome and T7, that's about 25 gates that is going to be replaced. How many total gates including the T5i extension that spread into the old T6 footprint?
 
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william
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Re: JetBlue/JMP going forward with JFK terminal 6 project

Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:48 pm

What will it look like?
 
PHLspecial
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Re: JetBlue/JMP going forward with JFK terminal 6 project

Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:55 pm

STT757 wrote:
$3.9 Billion for ten gates?

Since it's a Cuomo project I wonder if it will have seating.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: JetBlue/JMP going forward with JFK terminal 6 project

Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:57 pm

tphuang wrote:
the goal here has to be achieving parity with Delta in yield while having much lower cost.


It is utter fantasy to think of matching DL in yield with so few 2-class planes in the fleet.

In the summer of 2019, FSDan's work pointed to 520 flights a day across LGA+JFK, with all but 37 of those with planes with F or J, and Y+.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1420613

That said, I'm happy to see investment in NYC airports. And, like others note, $3.9 Billion for ten more gates sounds ridiculous. Costs per enplanement can't be modest with that kind of spending. It makes DL's $1.9 Billion at LAX look like a bargain - a carrier that actually has widebodies to use widebody gates.
 
11C
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Re: JetBlue/JMP going forward with JFK terminal 6 project

Tue Aug 03, 2021 5:17 pm

It would sure seem to indicate that a wide body addition to the fleet is at least a planning goal. I also like the way the air train stop will eventually be very fortuitously located, right in the middle of it.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: JetBlue/JMP going forward with JFK terminal 6 project

Tue Aug 03, 2021 5:21 pm

Some Details

10 gates.

Only 1 available in 2025.

Rest of gates dont come online until 2030!! There is something more here with the timeline and cost.

Terminal can be expanded with a few more gates to west.

Linear terminal with some nooks and crannies (think AUS terminal) allows for dual taxiways, but also reduces amount of gates possible. They will have a very spacious 40-45 gates if fully expanded.
 
tphuang
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Re: JetBlue/JMP going forward with JFK terminal 6 project

Tue Aug 03, 2021 5:27 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
tphuang wrote:
the goal here has to be achieving parity with Delta in yield while having much lower cost.


It is utter fantasy to think of matching DL in yield with so few 2-class planes in the fleet.

In the summer of 2019, FSDan's work pointed to 520 flights a day across LGA+JFK, with all but 37 of those with planes with F or J, and Y+.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1420613


I'm talking about when 2 airlines are operating similar products (like 190 to 200 seat large narrowbody to Florida or transcon with lie flat seating or a flight to London), Jetblue's goal should be to have a similar yield per passenger (when including ancillary fares) as Delta. I think JetBlue's direction out of JFK will be more premium aircraft, lounge, multi-tier ffp. All the things you'd need to capture higher yielding customers.

That said, I'm happy to see investment in NYC airports. And, like others note, $3.9 Billion for ten more gates sounds ridiculous. Costs per enplanement can't be modest with that kind of spending. It makes DL's $1.9 Billion at LAX look like a bargain - a carrier that actually has widebodies to use widebody gates.


DL is spending $1.5 billion for T-4 work. IIRC, they are not even getting any additional gates out of it when factor in the gates they lose in T-2.

I think the new T-1 will be scaled down and this T6 will be the nicest terminal. It will attract premium airlines looking for a place to put their flagship product/lounge. All of this will benefit JetBlue.

Some math on that $3.9 billion. If we spread it across 30 years and say JetBlue need to cover $3 out of the $3.9 billion in today's dollar (assuming interest rate and regular CPE inflation is comparable).

Then, that'd be $100 million per year in today's money.
$100 million / 365 days / 240 flights a year / 170 seat per aircraft = $6.7 per seat

It's a lot of money, but NYC is a market where you have to spend. They have to also be buying a lot of political favors this time. That should not be underestimated.
 
jbs2886
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Re: JetBlue/JMP going forward with JFK terminal 6 project

Tue Aug 03, 2021 5:42 pm

tphuang wrote:
It will allow JetBlue to market itself as the most high end carrier in NYC.


Ahh because onboard product and other factors clearly don’t matter - it’s all about the departure terminal as to whether an airline can claim “most high end carrier”. Got it.
 
N757ST
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Re: JetBlue/JMP going forward with JFK terminal 6 project

Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:05 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
Some Details

10 gates.

Only 1 available in 2025.

Rest of gates dont come online until 2030!! There is something more here with the timeline and cost.

Terminal can be expanded with a few more gates to west.

Linear terminal with some nooks and crannies (think AUS terminal) allows for dual taxiways, but also reduces amount of gates possible. They will have a very spacious 40-45 gates if fully expanded.



This 1 gate remark was likely a typo, if you look at the actual sketches of the project most gates would be done in 2025 and another expansion would be available after.
 
wjcandee
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Re: JetBlue/JMP going forward with JFK terminal 6 project

Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:11 pm

Only the Port Authority can come up with a plan to spend $390 million per gate and sell it as a victory.

T5 was about $38 million per gate. A totally-different order of magnitude.

Obviously, there are all sorts of participants in that joint venture (who is that M/WBE made up of, anyway?) that likely make up a Who's Who of political cronyism. Gross. I need a shower.
 
wjcandee
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Re: JetBlue/JMP going forward with JFK terminal 6 project

Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:17 pm

American Triple I: https://www.tripleipartners.com/our-team/

Sucks to be right. It smacks of being a vehicle to pump money into the pockets of members of New York's political elite. Shameless. In the old days, the gov't would issue tax free municipal bonds to finance construction, and the Port Authority would manage the project. Now, "private" enterprise, in the form of these guys, gets a cut.
 
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Re: JetBlue/JMP going forward with JFK terminal 6 project

Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:31 pm

Will this be ten new widebody gates, which can flex into additional narrowbody gates when not occupied by (presumably) B6 partners and/or tenants? Would probably make sense.

A massive price tag, but it's a big project.

As for the HQ project, a number of functions are still being relocated to Florida, and I understand overall square footage is being reduced, but it's still nice to see that JetBlue will remain officially in New York.
 
JoseSalazar
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Re: JetBlue/JMP going forward with JFK terminal 6 project

Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:34 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
tphuang wrote:
It will allow JetBlue to market itself as the most high end carrier in NYC.


Ahh because onboard product and other factors clearly don’t matter - it’s all about the departure terminal as to whether an airline can claim “most high end carrier”. Got it.

When you say onboard product, are you talking about the airline with the most legroom, free WiFi, IFE, and the most snack options? Or are you talking about that high end carrier that flies CRJs in/out of JFK, as well as cramped 737s with 17 inch seats with 30 inches of pitch? I guess it’s all a matter of perspective about what constitutes a good onboard product. I’ll take mint (especially the new mint) over delta transcon. I’ll take JetBlue over delta in coach for sure. Comfort+ is a wash with B6 EMS, though EMS has a little more legroom, but C+ wins with the snack basket I suppose. Domestic first and lounges - delta wins (for now). On time performance goes to delta. But, I have a feeling by the time this terminal is done, some of these things will have changed.
 
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Revelation
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Re: JetBlue/JMP going forward with JFK terminal 6 project

Tue Aug 03, 2021 8:45 pm

Moosefire wrote:
STT757 wrote:
$3.9 Billion for ten gates?

Pretty incredible considering Terminal 5 came in at just around $1 billion in 2008 for 26 gates.

Yes, and presumably in 2034 $3.9B will look cheap.
 
ContinentalEWR
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Re: JetBlue/JMP going forward with JFK terminal 6 project

Wed Aug 04, 2021 12:26 am

jfklganyc wrote:
Some Details

10 gates.

Only 1 available in 2025.

Rest of gates dont come online until 2030!! There is something more here with the timeline and cost.

Terminal can be expanded with a few more gates to west.

Linear terminal with some nooks and crannies (think AUS terminal) allows for dual taxiways, but also reduces amount of gates possible. They will have a very spacious 40-45 gates if fully expanded.


Only the PANYNJ can come up with such a boondogle.
 
atlflyer
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Re: JetBlue/JMP going forward with JFK terminal 6 project

Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:31 am

STT757 wrote:
$3.9 Billion for ten gates?


It’s 1.2 million square feet. Their current Terminal 5 is 640,000 square feet. It’s nice JetBlue is seeing that it’s not a good experience when you cram so many gates into a small space. T5 is way too crowded.
 
atlflyer
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Re: JetBlue/JMP going forward with JFK terminal 6 project

Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:33 am

wjcandee wrote:
Only the Port Authority can come up with a plan to spend $390 million per gate and sell it as a victory.

T5 was about $38 million per gate. A totally-different order of magnitude.

Obviously, there are all sorts of participants in that joint venture (who is that M/WBE made up of, anyway?) that likely make up a Who's Who of political cronyism. Gross. I need a shower.


Compare the square-footage. T5 is 640,000 square feet. T6 will be 1.2 million.

T5 is way too small for that many gates.
 
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STT757
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Re: JetBlue/JMP going forward with JFK terminal 6 project

Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:52 am

atlflyer wrote:
STT757 wrote:
$3.9 Billion for ten gates?


It’s 1.2 million square feet. Their current Terminal 5 is 640,000 square feet. It’s nice JetBlue is seeing that it’s not a good experience when you cram so many gates into a small space. T5 is way too crowded.


New Terminal One at EWR, 1 million square feet and 35 gates. $2.6 billion.
 
wjcandee
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Re: JetBlue/JMP going forward with JFK terminal 6 project

Wed Aug 04, 2021 2:27 am

atlflyer wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
Only the Port Authority can come up with a plan to spend $390 million per gate and sell it as a victory.

T5 was about $38 million per gate. A totally-different order of magnitude.

Obviously, there are all sorts of participants in that joint venture (who is that M/WBE made up of, anyway?) that likely make up a Who's Who of political cronyism. Gross. I need a shower.


Compare the square-footage. T5 is 640,000 square feet. T6 will be 1.2 million.

T5 is way too small for that many gates.


So it's double the square footage at 4 times the price, with one-third the gates. Respectfully, you seem to be making my point.
 
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gregn21
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Re: JetBlue/JMP going forward with JFK terminal 6 project

Wed Aug 04, 2021 4:00 am

I feel like for 1.2 million square feet to make sense the "10 gates" have to be widebody gates capable of alternatively operating as 2 narrowbody gates. Otherwise, I don't see where the area is coming from or being used for.
 
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Re: JetBlue/JMP going forward with JFK terminal 6 project

Wed Aug 04, 2021 10:02 am

To clarify one thing about terminal 5 crowds

Terminal 5 post security has the most space per narrowbody gate of any New York airport terminal. They also have ample restroom space…Another luxury at New York airports.

Where terminal 5 is lacking space is the head house, the roadway system, and the food court area.

The headhouse Is Jetblue’s own doing. They took the post 9/11 Airport design to the extreme and put everything post security with little room to adapt pre security


The roadway system speaks to the fact That TWA probably should’ve been moved or demolished. It is a logistical problem to get around that building. That building doesnt need to be there

The food court is just a piss poor design
 
bigb
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Re: JetBlue/JMP going forward with JFK terminal 6 project

Wed Aug 04, 2021 12:00 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
To clarify one thing about terminal 5 crowds

Terminal 5 post security has the most space per narrowbody gate of any New York airport terminal. They also have ample restroom space…Another luxury at New York airports.

Where terminal 5 is lacking space is the head house, the roadway system, and the food court area.

The headhouse Is Jetblue’s own doing. They took the post 9/11 Airport design to the extreme and put everything post security with little room to adapt pre security


The roadway system speaks to the fact That TWA probably should’ve been moved or demolished. It is a logistical problem to get around that building. That building doesnt need to be there

The food court is just a piss poor design


Fortunately, that building will not go anywhere as it is a registered historic landmark and a sweet hotel for a at airport stay.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: JetBlue/JMP going forward with JFK terminal 6 project

Wed Aug 04, 2021 12:13 pm

bigb wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
To clarify one thing about terminal 5 crowds

Terminal 5 post security has the most space per narrowbody gate of any New York airport terminal. They also have ample restroom space…Another luxury at New York airports.

Where terminal 5 is lacking space is the head house, the roadway system, and the food court area.

The headhouse Is Jetblue’s own doing. They took the post 9/11 Airport design to the extreme and put everything post security with little room to adapt pre security


The roadway system speaks to the fact That TWA probably should’ve been moved or demolished. It is a logistical problem to get around that building. That building doesnt need to be there

The food court is just a piss poor design


Fortunately, that building will not go anywhere as it is a registered historic landmark and a sweet hotel for a at airport stay.



It is a nice building. It is in the way of a functioning airport and until the hotel opened, served no airport function.

Even as a hotel, it is ill-located and adds to T5 limitations.

Between the garage and TWA, im not sure how the roadway system for T6 will work. You used to have to pass the T5 frontage and go through a series of traffic lights to get to the old T6 and T7. It was a mess 20 years ago.
 
atlflyer
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Re: JetBlue/JMP going forward with JFK terminal 6 project

Wed Aug 04, 2021 12:13 pm

wjcandee wrote:
atlflyer wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
Only the Port Authority can come up with a plan to spend $390 million per gate and sell it as a victory.

T5 was about $38 million per gate. A totally-different order of magnitude.

Obviously, there are all sorts of participants in that joint venture (who is that M/WBE made up of, anyway?) that likely make up a Who's Who of political cronyism. Gross. I need a shower.


Compare the square-footage. T5 is 640,000 square feet. T6 will be 1.2 million.

T5 is way too small for that many gates.


So it's double the square footage at 4 times the price, with one-third the gates. Respectfully, you seem to be making my point.


And you are comparing 2006 prices to 2022-2026 prices. Also the design is showing a much more elaborate design than T5.
 
stlgph
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Re: JetBlue/JMP going forward with JFK terminal 6 project

Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:24 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
bigb wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
To clarify one thing about terminal 5 crowds

Terminal 5 post security has the most space per narrowbody gate of any New York airport terminal. They also have ample restroom space…Another luxury at New York airports.

Where terminal 5 is lacking space is the head house, the roadway system, and the food court area.

The headhouse Is Jetblue’s own doing. They took the post 9/11 Airport design to the extreme and put everything post security with little room to adapt pre security


The roadway system speaks to the fact That TWA probably should’ve been moved or demolished. It is a logistical problem to get around that building. That building doesnt need to be there

The food court is just a piss poor design


Fortunately, that building will not go anywhere as it is a registered historic landmark and a sweet hotel for a at airport stay.



It is a nice building. It is in the way of a functioning airport and until the hotel opened, served no airport function.

Even as a hotel, it is ill-located and adds to T5 limitations.

Between the garage and TWA, im not sure how the roadway system for T6 will work. You used to have to pass the T5 frontage and go through a series of traffic lights to get to the old T6 and T7. It was a mess 20 years ago.


AirTrain is a neat thing.
 
tphuang
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Re: JetBlue/JMP going forward with JFK terminal 6 project

Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:35 pm

Keep in mind that JFK is a slot constrained airport. Even if they get up to 220 to 240 flights a day, T-5 should have plenty of gate space for JetBlue to run all of its operations. Maybe they operate the TATL and mint stuff out of T-6. They don't need that many more gates. They can always add more gates later or reconfigure widebody for narrowbody, but I don't see the need. There is no other domestic carriers that need gate space there. This is not a EWR or LAX situation where having more gates means having more flights.

T-5 was really nice when it was first built, but T-4 definitely has more food and shopping options + all the premium lounges. As JetBlue becomes more and more like a legacy carrier, it makes a lot of sense to create this premium feel in its largest operating base. With the amount of money they pour into this, T-5/6 should be nicer than the re-modeled T-4. If T-1 consortium scales down their project, it will likely be nicer and more premium than T-1 also. Premium airlines will want to operate out of here when its completed. EK is not going to be concerned with paying more rent for large lounge and dedicated check-in space. They will just want nice large gate where they can park their A380 all evening.

As for the costs, things are just more expensive in NYC than even NJ. DL's scaled down proposal still cost $1.6 billion. T-1 consortium's original proposal was $8 billion and replaced 22 gates with 23 gates. They probably had to include the 30% MWBE contracting to have their proposal selected. Remember, AA had a proposal too, but B6's proposal got picked. As a result of that, BA was forced to move into T-8 along with other T-7 OW carriers. Effectively, B6 took 12 gates away from other carriers. T-8 is now jammed with OW carriers and probably not accessible for non-OW carrier. T-4 may have a few gates for use outside of DL and its partners. Who knows what T-1 will look like. Carriers are going to have to come to B6 to negotiate for spacing. This is a big deal.
 
CaptCoolHand
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Re: JetBlue/JMP going forward with JFK terminal 6 project

Wed Aug 04, 2021 4:11 pm

bigb wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
To clarify one thing about terminal 5 crowds

Terminal 5 post security has the most space per narrowbody gate of any New York airport terminal. They also have ample restroom space…Another luxury at New York airports.

Where terminal 5 is lacking space is the head house, the roadway system, and the food court area.

The headhouse Is Jetblue’s own doing. They took the post 9/11 Airport design to the extreme and put everything post security with little room to adapt pre security


The roadway system speaks to the fact That TWA probably should’ve been moved or demolished. It is a logistical problem to get around that building. That building doesnt need to be there

The food court is just a piss poor design


Fortunately, that building will not go anywhere as it is a registered historic landmark and a sweet hotel for a at airport stay.


Respectfully disagree. The nostalgia of TWA hay day aside. The rooms are cramped and don’t even have trash cans! The carpets are wrecked and the place is in poorly kept shape. There are few food options available even pre COVID. The walls are paper thin and unless you’re into voyeurism it’s terrible. Pretty much the only convenience is not having to wait for a cab or Uber. The gym may be the only saving grace.

Jmo, the twa hotel may have been a good idea, but it’s a dump.
 
bkflyguy
Posts: 245
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:25 pm

Re: JetBlue/JMP going forward with JFK terminal 6 project

Wed Aug 04, 2021 4:34 pm

STT757 wrote:
$3.9 Billion for ten gates?


This project also includes the teardown of T7. Do any of you know how much asbestos or other hazardous substances are in that building? I don't. But it could be a lot. If they are replacing large portions of the tarmac, they may also need to remediate any contamination lurking there from oil, PCBs, etc. Do they have to relocate or upgrade utilities? All of these things could add to the cost. Yes, construction wages in NY are high and there is corruption. But these are not the only reasons for high costs. But, I will give you one thing unique to New York that adds to the cost of construction there -- N.Y. Labor Law Section 240. This law imposes strict liability on the owner and GC for any injuries suffered in a fall from almost any height no matter how small. Workers game this system and any fall, no matter how minor, somehow always result in injuries and lost time, which the owner/GC are strictly liable for. This has caused the cost of insurance for construction projects to skyrocket.
 
User avatar
jfklganyc
Posts: 6514
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

Re: JetBlue/JMP going forward with JFK terminal 6 project

Wed Aug 04, 2021 8:16 pm

CaptCoolHand wrote:
bigb wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
To clarify one thing about terminal 5 crowds

Terminal 5 post security has the most space per narrowbody gate of any New York airport terminal. They also have ample restroom space…Another luxury at New York airports.

Where terminal 5 is lacking space is the head house, the roadway system, and the food court area.

The headhouse Is Jetblue’s own doing. They took the post 9/11 Airport design to the extreme and put everything post security with little room to adapt pre security


The roadway system speaks to the fact That TWA probably should’ve been moved or demolished. It is a logistical problem to get around that building. That building doesnt need to be there

The food court is just a piss poor design


Fortunately, that building will not go anywhere as it is a registered historic landmark and a sweet hotel for a at airport stay.


Respectfully disagree. The nostalgia of TWA hay day aside. The rooms are cramped and don’t even have trash cans! The carpets are wrecked and the place is in poorly kept shape. There are few food options available even pre COVID. The walls are paper thin and unless you’re into voyeurism it’s terrible. Pretty much the only convenience is not having to wait for a cab or Uber. The gym may be the only saving grace.

Jmo, the twa hotel may have been a good idea, but it’s a dump.



This hotel is not a dump. Its a high end hotel with smallish rooms. The public areas are exquisite. The gym is like Equinox. The pool has spectacular views. The connie, the skating rink, the sunken bar at night…they did a nice job.

Nonetheless, it is not in a good spot and leads to unnecessary congestion in the terminal area
 
bigb
Posts: 1417
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 4:30 pm

Re: JetBlue/JMP going forward with JFK terminal 6 project

Wed Aug 04, 2021 11:42 pm

CaptCoolHand wrote:
bigb wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
To clarify one thing about terminal 5 crowds

Terminal 5 post security has the most space per narrowbody gate of any New York airport terminal. They also have ample restroom space…Another luxury at New York airports.

Where terminal 5 is lacking space is the head house, the roadway system, and the food court area.

The headhouse Is Jetblue’s own doing. They took the post 9/11 Airport design to the extreme and put everything post security with little room to adapt pre security


The roadway system speaks to the fact That TWA probably should’ve been moved or demolished. It is a logistical problem to get around that building. That building doesnt need to be there

The food court is just a piss poor design


Fortunately, that building will not go anywhere as it is a registered historic landmark and a sweet hotel for a at airport stay.


Respectfully disagree. The nostalgia of TWA hay day aside. The rooms are cramped and don’t even have trash cans! The carpets are wrecked and the place is in poorly kept shape. There are few food options available even pre COVID. The walls are paper thin and unless you’re into voyeurism it’s terrible. Pretty much the only convenience is not having to wait for a cab or Uber. The gym may be the only saving grace.

Jmo, the twa hotel may have been a good idea, but it’s a dump.


Agree to Disagree, it’s a great hotel for an airport stay and actually one of the nicest on-airport hotel property in this country to be honest. I definitely don’t mind it for a short overnight in Kennedy.
 
JoseSalazar
Posts: 557
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:18 am

Re: JetBlue/JMP going forward with JFK terminal 6 project

Wed Aug 04, 2021 11:51 pm

bigb wrote:
CaptCoolHand wrote:
bigb wrote:

Fortunately, that building will not go anywhere as it is a registered historic landmark and a sweet hotel for a at airport stay.


Respectfully disagree. The nostalgia of TWA hay day aside. The rooms are cramped and don’t even have trash cans! The carpets are wrecked and the place is in poorly kept shape. There are few food options available even pre COVID. The walls are paper thin and unless you’re into voyeurism it’s terrible. Pretty much the only convenience is not having to wait for a cab or Uber. The gym may be the only saving grace.

Jmo, the twa hotel may have been a good idea, but it’s a dump.


Agree to Disagree, it’s a great hotel for an airport stay and actually one of the nicest on-airport hotel property in this country to be honest. I definitely don’t mind it for a short overnight in Kennedy.


I like it better than the other JFK airport hotels. But CCH’s points and the negatives he listed about it are valid imo.
 
glideslope900
Posts: 186
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2019 5:27 am

Re: JetBlue/JMP going forward with JFK terminal 6 project

Thu Aug 05, 2021 12:06 am

The TWA is great for the convenience but the floors are atrocious. Carpets are uncleaned. Also no trash can or closet. Almost impossible to get someone there on the phone at times. Had issues with an elevator. It could use a lot if improvements.
 
Moosefire
Posts: 189
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:47 pm

Re: JetBlue/JMP going forward with JFK terminal 6 project

Thu Aug 05, 2021 12:24 am

The walls are SUPER thin, and that gym is no equinox.
 
atlflyer
Posts: 771
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 11:13 am

Re: JetBlue/JMP going forward with JFK terminal 6 project

Thu Aug 05, 2021 2:30 am

CaptCoolHand wrote:
bigb wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
To clarify one thing about terminal 5 crowds

Terminal 5 post security has the most space per narrowbody gate of any New York airport terminal. They also have ample restroom space…Another luxury at New York airports.

Where terminal 5 is lacking space is the head house, the roadway system, and the food court area.

The headhouse Is Jetblue’s own doing. They took the post 9/11 Airport design to the extreme and put everything post security with little room to adapt pre security


The roadway system speaks to the fact That TWA probably should’ve been moved or demolished. It is a logistical problem to get around that building. That building doesnt need to be there

The food court is just a piss poor design


Fortunately, that building will not go anywhere as it is a registered historic landmark and a sweet hotel for a at airport stay.


Respectfully disagree. The nostalgia of TWA hay day aside. The rooms are cramped and don’t even have trash cans! The carpets are wrecked and the place is in poorly kept shape. There are few food options available even pre COVID. The walls are paper thin and unless you’re into voyeurism it’s terrible. Pretty much the only convenience is not having to wait for a cab or Uber. The gym may be the only saving grace.

Jmo, the twa hotel may have been a good idea, but it’s a dump.


I couldn’t disagree more. The entire hotel is beautiful. The carpets were perfect. And if you don’t like the large, floor to ceiling windows, they have built in motorized black-out shades.
 
atlflyer
Posts: 771
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 11:13 am

Re: JetBlue/JMP going forward with JFK terminal 6 project

Thu Aug 05, 2021 2:35 am

glideslope900 wrote:
The TWA is great for the convenience but the floors are atrocious. Carpets are uncleaned. Also no trash can or closet. Almost impossible to get someone there on the phone at times. Had issues with an elevator. It could use a lot if improvements.


When you say the floors are atrocious, are you referring to the original Penny tile in the lobby/terminal building? It’s pretty amazing to any arch history enthusiasts that so much of the original design they were able to keep.
 
User avatar
DL757NYC
Posts: 394
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2016 6:07 am

Re: JetBlue/JMP going forward with JFK terminal 6 project

Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:15 am

Will this project be a precursor to Jetblue expanding to destinations in Europe. Could we see JetBlue with wide body aircraft?
 
glideslope900
Posts: 186
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2019 5:27 am

Re: JetBlue/JMP going forward with JFK terminal 6 project

Thu Aug 05, 2021 7:55 am

atlflyer wrote:
glideslope900 wrote:
The TWA is great for the convenience but the floors are atrocious. Carpets are uncleaned. Also no trash can or closet. Almost impossible to get someone there on the phone at times. Had issues with an elevator. It could use a lot if improvements.


When you say the floors are atrocious, are you referring to the original Penny tile in the lobby/terminal building? It’s pretty amazing to any arch history enthusiasts that so much of the original design they were able to keep.


No, I have no problem with the tile. It is the layers of dirt and lint on the carpets (as in they are not being cleaned).
 
trueblew
Posts: 291
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:16 pm

Re: JetBlue/JMP going forward with JFK terminal 6 project

Thu Aug 05, 2021 2:50 pm

atlflyer wrote:
CaptCoolHand wrote:
bigb wrote:

Fortunately, that building will not go anywhere as it is a registered historic landmark and a sweet hotel for a at airport stay.


Respectfully disagree. The nostalgia of TWA hay day aside. The rooms are cramped and don’t even have trash cans! The carpets are wrecked and the place is in poorly kept shape. There are few food options available even pre COVID. The walls are paper thin and unless you’re into voyeurism it’s terrible. Pretty much the only convenience is not having to wait for a cab or Uber. The gym may be the only saving grace.

Jmo, the twa hotel may have been a good idea, but it’s a dump.


I couldn’t disagree more. The entire hotel is beautiful. The carpets were perfect. And if you don’t like the large, floor to ceiling windows, they have built in motorized black-out shades.


You're right. The carpets WERE perfect. They look like absolute garbage now.

All of the above criticisms are legitimate.
 
Prost
Posts: 2657
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:23 pm

Re: JetBlue/JMP going forward with JFK terminal 6 project

Thu Aug 05, 2021 2:53 pm

I’m sure the new T6 will take care of the TWA hotel carpets.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 26591
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: JetBlue/JMP going forward with JFK terminal 6 project

Thu Aug 05, 2021 4:10 pm

tphuang wrote:
Keep in mind that JFK is a slot constrained airport. Even if they get up to 220 to 240 flights a day, T-5 should have plenty of gate space for JetBlue to run all of its operations. Maybe they operate the TATL and mint stuff out of T-6. They don't need that many more gates. They can always add more gates later or reconfigure widebody for narrowbody, but I don't see the need. There is no other domestic carriers that need gate space there. This is not a EWR or LAX situation where having more gates means having more flights.

T-5 was really nice when it was first built, but T-4 definitely has more food and shopping options + all the premium lounges. As JetBlue becomes more and more like a legacy carrier, it makes a lot of sense to create this premium feel in its largest operating base. With the amount of money they pour into this, T-5/6 should be nicer than the re-modeled T-4. If T-1 consortium scales down their project, it will likely be nicer and more premium than T-1 also. Premium airlines will want to operate out of here when its completed. EK is not going to be concerned with paying more rent for large lounge and dedicated check-in space. They will just want nice large gate where they can park their A380 all evening.

As for the costs, things are just more expensive in NYC than even NJ. DL's scaled down proposal still cost $1.6 billion. T-1 consortium's original proposal was $8 billion and replaced 22 gates with 23 gates. They probably had to include the 30% MWBE contracting to have their proposal selected. Remember, AA had a proposal too, but B6's proposal got picked. As a result of that, BA was forced to move into T-8 along with other T-7 OW carriers. Effectively, B6 took 12 gates away from other carriers. T-8 is now jammed with OW carriers and probably not accessible for non-OW carrier. T-4 may have a few gates for use outside of DL and its partners. Who knows what T-1 will look like. Carriers are going to have to come to B6 to negotiate for spacing. This is a big deal.

It sounds like being selected to develop T6 was expensive for B6, but losing it could have been more expensive, since their growth could be controlled by AA had AA's proposal been selected.

IMO T8 is jammed because AA didn't build out the full footprint in the past and now the BA build out is just using a stub on the side of the original footprint.

Prost wrote:
I’m sure the new T6 will take care of the TWA hotel carpets.

How are these two linked?
 
Moosefire
Posts: 189
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:47 pm

Re: JetBlue/JMP going forward with JFK terminal 6 project

Thu Aug 05, 2021 4:29 pm

Revelation wrote:
tphuang wrote:
Prost wrote:
I’m sure the new T6 will take care of the TWA hotel carpets.

How are these two linked?


Both are JetBlue corporate real estate projects under the holding company.
 
tphuang
Topic Author
Posts: 6637
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: JetBlue/JMP going forward with JFK terminal 6 project

Thu Aug 05, 2021 5:03 pm

Revelation wrote:
It sounds like being selected to develop T6 was expensive for B6, but losing it could have been more expensive, since their growth could be controlled by AA had AA's proposal been selected.

IMO T8 is jammed because AA didn't build out the full footprint in the past and now the BA build out is just using a stub on the side of the original footprint.


Yep, AA made the decision to go very cheap in its T-8 remodeling project and converted its RJ gates to widebody gates for BA and its OW partners. That to me seems like a decision of giving up the ability to do more than 70 to 80 flights a day or feeding its own metal, since T-8 will be packed with widebodies from afternoon onward. That's part of the reason it is now forced to partner up with B6 to feed its international traffic.

And with COVID, JFK has now become its primary TATL hub. You actually can't fly to certain destinations like TLV with AA on 1-connection without using B6 metal.

Profound implication of B6 going all all and AA going very cheap at JFK
 
Biophobe99
Posts: 28
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 8:59 pm

Re: JetBlue/JMP going forward with JFK terminal 6 project

Thu Aug 05, 2021 6:48 pm

Congratulations to B6 on the new terminal project! It will certainly help make them an even stronger competitor in the NYC metro market.

As to if this project gives them the best facilities, well, that’s subjective. It will certainly give them the newest terminals in NYC metro area. DL and AA will also have mostly new terminals as well. DLs challenge will be how well they upgrade T4 at JFK. The current plans seem a little short sighted but it does appear they left themselves opportunities to further expand at a later date. AA appears to have deferred any meaningful growth to B6. The B6 codeshare does give them additional reach and frequency but at the loss of control when it concerns onboard product, scheduling and revenue. UA will continue to chug along with their fully consolidated hub at EWR and cursory presence at both LGA and JFK.

The TWA hotel is a fantastic hotel. It has suffered during COVID too. You can tell that a lot of low level maintenance and replacement items are being put off as long as they can. The rooms are being kept up though. They are more of a European size and it’s important to keep in mind that it is an airport hotel. People tend to only spend a short evening there. If you want a full service hotel with large rooms that you can vacation at for long periods of time you would be best served off of JFK airport property.

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