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MohawkWeekend
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Time to bring back (some) regulation

Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:42 pm

Thought this would be an appropriate time to offer this up as a topic to discuss. If I were a betting man, Congressional hearings are going to be held after this week's meltdowns.

We can all agree that America's airlines have never suffered through a more disruptive last couple of days. And not just ULCC's have been impacted. This laissez-faire approach (race to the bottom) of consumer rights and corporate behavior has reached the logical conclusion of unfettered competition.

After $50 plus billion dollars of aid, it's time to admit that airlines are public utilities. You cant be so essential and then provide this level of public service.
 
sUAisDL
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Re: Time to bring back (some) regulation

Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:45 pm

What specific meltdowns?
 
MohawkWeekend
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Re: Time to bring back (some) regulation

Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:50 pm

Have you turned on the news? AA/SW/Spirit
 
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gdg9
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Re: Time to bring back (some) regulation

Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:50 pm

Let me put some popcorn in the microwave and come back and read this thread a little later.
 
SeaDoo
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Re: Time to bring back (some) regulation

Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:50 pm

I would like to see some more regulations such as minimum seat pitch, bathrooms per passenger, etc
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Time to bring back (some) regulation

Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:58 pm

MohawkWeekend wrote:

After $50 plus billion dollars of aid, it's time to admit that airlines are public utilities. You cant be so essential and then provide this level of public service.


What attributes do you think should be regulated? Please provide a comprehensive list. How should these performance characteristics be regulated? With what penalties?
 
MohawkWeekend
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Re: Time to bring back (some) regulation

Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:59 pm

SeaDoo wrote:
I would like to see some more regulations such as minimum seat pitch, bathrooms per passenger, etc



Two really good places to start.
 
Scarebus34
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Re: Time to bring back (some) regulation

Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:59 pm

MohawkWeekend wrote:
We can all agree that America's airlines have never suffered through a more disruptive last couple of days.


No, I don't think we will all agree on that. UA/DL/AS aren't facing any operational meltdowns. Southwest has had some cancellations but hardly broadly disruptive.
 
mcg
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Re: Time to bring back (some) regulation

Tue Aug 03, 2021 8:06 pm

MohawkWeekend wrote:
SeaDoo wrote:
I would like to see some more regulations such as minimum seat pitch, bathrooms per passenger, etc



Two really good places to start.


Neither of those two items will address some airlines operational issues.
 
MohawkWeekend
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Re: Time to bring back (some) regulation

Tue Aug 03, 2021 8:07 pm

As mentioned before
Seat pitch
bathroom numbers and size
Increased compensation for delayed or cancelled flights
Mandatory rebooking on the next available flight regardless of carrier or cost.
Quick add - at least on more FA per flight, more CSA at the gate

My suggestions.
 
chonetsao
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Re: Time to bring back (some) regulation

Tue Aug 03, 2021 8:12 pm

I hope the fuel surcharge aka carrier surcharges (YQ/YR) gets banned, and airlines must including those charges into the base fare. (I am talking about European airlines specifically).
 
MohawkWeekend
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Re: Time to bring back (some) regulation

Tue Aug 03, 2021 8:16 pm

mcg wrote:
MohawkWeekend wrote:
SeaDoo wrote:
I would like to see some more regulations such as minimum seat pitch, bathrooms per passenger, etc



Two really good places to start.


Neither of those two items will address some airlines operational issues.



I'm old enough to have flown in the 60's. If you think that a standard coach seat of today doesn't cause travelers to go crazy, you must be 5'1". And yes, I flew plenty of $500 OW 1 hour flights pre-COVID flights in coach. Say sitting in a 737, number 10 at LGA in a windstorm.
 
blockski
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Re: Time to bring back (some) regulation

Tue Aug 03, 2021 8:20 pm

MohawkWeekend wrote:
Have you turned on the news? AA/SW/Spirit


What particular regulation would you propose to address these issues? Which ones, in particular, do you want to "bring back?" The Civil Aeronautics Board? Setting fares? Setting routes?
 
nikeherc
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Re: Time to bring back (some) regulation

Tue Aug 03, 2021 8:20 pm

The "race to the bottom" has been driven airline customers. People will travel in a sardine can to save a few dollars. The airlines have given them what they want and now the are complaining. I can remember the days of regulation when Eastern was insufferable, not because of regulation or deregulation, but indifference and apathy. I can also remember when one of the functions of regulation was to keep airlines from competing too strenuously. Things were regulated, especially in international travel, like sandwich sizes. Everybody was charging the same fares, so they tried to differentiate on service.

We now have low fares and commoditized air travel. No airline can afford to provide too good service in coach because their fares would cause them to be empty in the back of the bus. We can go back to the "good old days" but nobody would be flying.

I would like to see the things mentioned by the OP, but if you impose those regulations. costs will go up.
 
MohawkWeekend
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Re: Time to bring back (some) regulation

Tue Aug 03, 2021 8:23 pm

Scarebus34 wrote:
MohawkWeekend wrote:
We can all agree that America's airlines have never suffered through a more disruptive last couple of days.


No, I don't think we will all agree on that. UA/DL/AS aren't facing any operational meltdowns. Southwest has had some cancellations but hardly broadly disruptive.



As a pilot, you have to be reading these stories and shaking your head. It hasn't always been this bad.

UA/DL/AS Management and Unions should be at the forefront of "raising the bar" for passengers and airline employees. Cheap wages, cut throat competition, management malfeasance. We can't wait for "Mr. Market" to protect the public.
 
onwFan
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Re: Time to bring back (some) regulation

Tue Aug 03, 2021 8:31 pm

MohawkWeekend wrote:
Have you turned on the news? AA/SW/Spirit

Are you suggesting that we ignore DL’s two meltdowns last year? Should we not have any regulations with respect to customers not being able to reach an agent through phone on DL? Aren’t the cause for all these the same?
 
Ufsatp
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Re: Time to bring back (some) regulation

Tue Aug 03, 2021 8:31 pm

MohawkWeekend wrote:
As mentioned before
Seat pitch
bathroom numbers and size
Increased compensation for delayed or cancelled flights
Mandatory rebooking on the next available flight regardless of carrier or cost.
Quick add - at least on more FA per flight, more CSA at the gate

My suggestions.



So make it more expensive to fly? No thanks.
 
MohawkWeekend
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Re: Time to bring back (some) regulation

Tue Aug 03, 2021 8:36 pm

onwFan wrote:
MohawkWeekend wrote:
Have you turned on the news? AA/SW/Spirit

Are you suggesting that we ignore DL’s two meltdowns last year? Should we not have any regulations with respect to customers not being able to reach an agent through phone on DL? Aren’t the cause for all these the same?


Not sure how you came to that conclusion (DL issue) but your suggestion regarding ability to contact your carrier is a good one.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Time to bring back (some) regulation

Tue Aug 03, 2021 8:48 pm

MohawkWeekend wrote:
mcg wrote:
MohawkWeekend wrote:


Two really good places to start.


Neither of those two items will address some airlines operational issues.



I'm old enough to have flown in the 60's. If you think that a standard coach seat of today doesn't cause travelers to go crazy, you must be 5'1". And yes, I flew plenty of $500 OW 1 hour flights pre-COVID flights in coach. Say sitting in a 737, number 10 at LGA in a windstorm.



You can have the room, personalized service now, just pay for it. Buy tickets in F or Premium Economy; buy business class seats. Really want pampering, buy your own Jet. Lots of options, too many people think they’re owed more than they want to pay for. The World doesn’t owe you a thing, it was here first.
Last edited by GalaxyFlyer on Tue Aug 03, 2021 8:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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airportugal310
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Re: Time to bring back (some) regulation

Tue Aug 03, 2021 8:49 pm

another thread brought to you by so-called "aviation enthusiasts"...wonderful
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Time to bring back (some) regulation

Tue Aug 03, 2021 8:51 pm

One problem is the old first class passengers fly on a business jet. Now we have more price sensitive customers only. We also have a pummeling in yield due to the slow business traffic. In my opinion, people are only flying what is cheap.
https://centreforaviation.com/analysis/ ... ery-567982

Right now, I have multiple relatives driving 800 miles instead of flying as cost/benefit today is drive.

What next, bring back the smoking section?

You cannot solve poor revenue with regulation. Next year I expect a lack of capacity.

Lightsaber
 
SeaDoo
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Re: Time to bring back (some) regulation

Tue Aug 03, 2021 8:53 pm

chonetsao wrote:
I hope the fuel surcharge aka carrier surcharges (YQ/YR) gets banned, and airlines must including those charges into the base fare. (I am talking about European airlines specifically).



Agreed
 
BooDog
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Re: Time to bring back (some) regulation

Tue Aug 03, 2021 9:00 pm

I've never worked for an airline. How feasible would these mandates be? 1. A maximum hour per plane scheduled, to help clear out jams at the end of the day. 2. Minimum amount of pilots/attendants on payroll per plane, to once again help clear out jams at the end of the day.
 
Jetport
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Re: Time to bring back (some) regulation

Tue Aug 03, 2021 9:05 pm

Maybe all airlines don't need to be regulated, but if Spirit survives this week, they need to make some major changes. Their employees are running away and hiding. I'm surprised the thread on the Spirit meltdown was closed, merged and buried in the rarely visited "Travel, Polls & Preferences" thread.

https://liveandletsfly.com/spirit-airlines-collapses/

https://onemileatatime.com/news/spirit- ... -meltdown/
 
MohawkWeekend
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Re: Time to bring back (some) regulation

Tue Aug 03, 2021 9:06 pm

The seat issue is minor in the scheme of things here

Outsourcing staff to the lowest bidder. Stranding thousands of passengers. Technology meltdowns. Scheduling too many flights in a bank without enough gates. Scheduling too many flights for the number of staff. It is time to change the "Terms of Carriage" so that airlines have to calculate a financial cost to their actions.
 
11C
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Re: Time to bring back (some) regulation

Tue Aug 03, 2021 9:08 pm

MohawkWeekend wrote:
Have you turned on the news? AA/SW/Spirit


I try to never do that.
 
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NameOmitted
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Re: Time to bring back (some) regulation

Tue Aug 03, 2021 9:11 pm

MohawkWeekend wrote:
We can all agree that America's airlines have never suffered through a more disruptive last couple of days. And not just ULCC's have been impacted. This laissez-faire approach (race to the bottom) of consumer rights and corporate behavior has reached the logical conclusion of unfettered competition.


Does a few days of bad service raise to the level of public harm that requires specific regulation?

MohawkWeekend wrote:
After $50 plus billion dollars of aid, it's time to admit that airlines are public utilities. You cant be so essential and then provide this level of public service.


I am not arguing that the aid was appropriate, but the reasoning for the aid was to maintain a functioning network through unprecedented times, in order to speed a nationwide recovery afterward.

I'm not sure that the aid is, in itself, an indicator that the airlines need to be regulated again, as regulated airlines ALSO required considerable aid. The difference is just in who paid the aid. Regulation lead to higher fares that would have kept me from being able to fly.

Your proposal shifts the acute burden of keeping the system aloft to a systemic solution that would not allow many to travel.

That being said, the high capital cost of airlines does make the supply/demand curve look a lot like a natural monopoly. The usual rules of supply and demand would lead to some very unstable investment options for anyone wanting to start and maintain an airline (as evidenced in what has happened to most start-ups). It is not a safe place to invest, and there is a role for government intervention (such as airport maintenance and EAS services).
 
onwFan
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Re: Time to bring back (some) regulation

Tue Aug 03, 2021 9:16 pm

Ufsatp wrote:
MohawkWeekend wrote:
As mentioned before
Seat pitch
bathroom numbers and size
Increased compensation for delayed or cancelled flights
Mandatory rebooking on the next available flight regardless of carrier or cost.
Quick add - at least on more FA per flight, more CSA at the gate

My suggestions.



So make it more expensive to fly? No thanks.

Exactly! Over time, more and more Americans have been able to afford air travel. ULCCs have successfully done the job of reducing prices, forcing the legacies to adapt. That is how it should be.
 
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BWIAirport
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Re: Time to bring back (some) regulation

Tue Aug 03, 2021 9:16 pm

Just about all the ideas I see in this thread will lead to more expensive flights. Which, despite constant headlines about seat pitch/bathrooms, is still the most important thing to the consumer. I also fail to see how most of these ideas will produce long-term solutions.
Mandate bigger bathrooms? Is that really a pervasive issue? No one expects an airplane bathroom to be big. Go in, do your business, and get out.
Federal minimum seat pitch? Most realistic out of the ideas for sure, but don't be surprised when airlines lobby for it to be something unrealistic like 25" so they can always stay above it.
Extra flight attendant per flight? For what? Plus, their primary duty is safety, not to be a sky waiter.
Mandatory rebooking on next available flight? I believe this is almost always offered, especially when the airline is at fault.
Extra compensation for missed flights? Will more likely lead to airlines cancelling fewer flights. Which sounds good until you remember they are always delayed or cancelled for a reason. I fear an airline sending a flight into the air that should not have departed.

Regulation is almost always a band-aid fix for vanity that addresses zero core issues. The best way for the industry to make the passenger experience better is to minimize barriers to entry for new airlines on routes, or even entirely new airlines as a whole. That could be overflight fees, taxes, working towards minimizing fuel expenses, etc.
Obviously Airline Deregulation was not an event related to passenger experience, but it marked a revolution in routes, prices, and accessibility. The government getting out of the way made things better. Increased regulation will not lead to a better passenger experience.

Flying was luxurious in the '70s. We all know that and we like to romanticize about that. But adjusted for inflation, tickets were upwards of ten times more expensive. Just about everyone I know will put up with two hours of Spirit economy to get to Fort Lauderdale for $60. A few recent passenger incidents don't change that.
 
maps4ltd
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Re: Time to bring back (some) regulation

Tue Aug 03, 2021 9:21 pm

Jetport wrote:
Maybe all airlines don't need to be regulated, but if Spirit survives this week, they need to make some major changes. Their employees are running away and hiding.


If passengers were assaulting me at my podium and damaging property, you bet I'd haul ass to the breakroom and call the cops. It's not the frontline employees' fault that the operation has gone to shit.
 
LH707330
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Re: Time to bring back (some) regulation

Tue Aug 03, 2021 9:38 pm

Many of the proposed ideas here will have unintended consequences. If the problem OP is trying to fix is "the airline didn't hold up their end of the bargain because they dropped the ball on crew scheduling/vendor mgmt/etc.," then the only reform needed is a penalty/refund system that makes contract breach enforcement easy for the pax like automatically giving them some minimum compensation every time the airline messes up on areas it controls. Hire a few econometricians to determine if it should be $500+fare, 2x fare, something else, whatever.

Seat pitch, toilets, and the rest are a pax-created problem. Some people do like better treatment, and are willing to pay for Y+, DFC, C, etc. The other 80% wants price, price, price.
 
departedflights
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Re: Time to bring back (some) regulation

Tue Aug 03, 2021 9:42 pm

Jetport wrote:
Maybe all airlines don't need to be regulated, but if Spirit survives this week, they need to make some major changes. Their employees are running away and hiding. I'm surprised the thread on the Spirit meltdown was closed, merged and buried in the rarely visited "Travel, Polls & Preferences" thread.

https://liveandletsfly.com/spirit-airlines-collapses/

https://onemileatatime.com/news/spirit- ... -meltdown/


Yet THIS thread (which is based completely on opinions) lives on in Civil Aviation.
 
MohawkWeekend
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Re: Time to bring back (some) regulation

Tue Aug 03, 2021 9:46 pm

No one thinks that the FAA rules (in this case evacuation times) might just be a little biased towards the airlines? No - that's never happened before.
 
MohawkWeekend
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Re: Time to bring back (some) regulation

Tue Aug 03, 2021 9:50 pm

departedflights wrote:
Jetport wrote:
Maybe all airlines don't need to be regulated, but if Spirit survives this week, they need to make some major changes. Their employees are running away and hiding. I'm surprised the thread on the Spirit meltdown was closed, merged and buried in the rarely visited "Travel, Polls & Preferences" thread.

https://liveandletsfly.com/spirit-airlines-collapses/

https://onemileatatime.com/news/spirit- ... -meltdown/


Yet THIS thread (which is based completely on opinions) lives on in Civil Aviation.



I opened this thread to get "thoughts" on what is the worst week in a year of bad for the airlines. Yours is we shouldn't discuss it in Civil Aviation. See your opinion matters.
 
MohawkWeekend
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Re: Time to bring back (some) regulation

Tue Aug 03, 2021 9:54 pm

LH707330 wrote:
Many of the proposed ideas here will have unintended consequences. If the problem OP is trying to fix is "the airline didn't hold up their end of the bargain because they dropped the ball on crew scheduling/vendor mgmt/etc.," then the only reform needed is a penalty/refund system that makes contract breach enforcement easy for the pax like automatically giving them some minimum compensation every time the airline messes up on areas it controls. Hire a few econometricians to determine if it should be $500+fare, 2x fare, something else, whatever.

Seat pitch, toilets, and the rest are a pax-created problem. Some people do like better treatment, and are willing to pay for Y+, DFC, C, etc. The other 80% wants price, price, price.



Thank you - your suggestions for economic penalties make alot of sense.

I surrender on the seats and bathrooms :white:
 
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vhtje
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Re: Time to bring back (some) regulation

Tue Aug 03, 2021 10:01 pm

MohawkWeekend wrote:
Thought this would be an appropriate time to offer this up as a topic to discuss. If I were a betting man, Congressional hearings are going to be held after this week's meltdowns.

We can all agree that America's airlines have never suffered through a more disruptive last couple of days. And not just ULCC's have been impacted. This laissez-faire approach (race to the bottom) of consumer rights and corporate behavior has reached the logical conclusion of unfettered competition.

After $50 plus billion dollars of aid, it's time to admit that airlines are public utilities. You cant be so essential and then provide this level of public service.


Firstly, this forum is an international forum, with members from all around the world. Please make clear that you are referring to domestic US carriers and regulations.

Secondly... regulate what, precisely? Passenger behaviour? Good luck with that.

Air travellers' consumer rights are protected in various ways. But a quick look at the DOT website suggests that you do indeed have a valid point, particularly when it comes to delayed and cancelled flights. https://www.transportation.gov/airconsumer/fly-rights#Delayed-and-Cancelled-Flights:

Each airline has its own policies about what it will do for delayed passengers waiting at the airport; there are no federal requirements. If you are delayed, ask the airline staff if it will pay for meals or a phone call. Some airlines, often those charging very low fares, do not provide any amenities to stranded passengers.


Note: emphasis is mine.

That is atrocious, so yes, I agree with you that airlines should be made to be more responsive and responsible during times of IRROPS/cancellation. So if some regulation was to be reintroduced, I would suggest passengers' rights should be the first area to be looked at.

Your point about airlines being public utilities is valid: if the airlines had been allowed to fail, the impact of on the wider economy would be utterly devastating and would have been felt for years.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Time to bring back (some) regulation

Tue Aug 03, 2021 10:06 pm

BooDog wrote:
I've never worked for an airline. How feasible would these mandates be? 1. A maximum hour per plane scheduled, to help clear out jams at the end of the day. 2. Minimum amount of pilots/attendants on payroll per plane, to once again help clear out jams at the end of the day.

1. Maximizing utilization is how you get value out of new aircraft. Capping use reduces switching to new aircraft, which increases carbon. New aircraft have predictive maintenance which allows more hours per day. You are mandating higher fares for little benefit most days.

2. They have crew on payroll, this is a training issue/bringing back from leave.

The crew is kept by publishing on time performance and shaming poor performers. It supresses yield to have poor OTP.


Although Spirit is setting a new low bar:
https://www.chicagotribune.com/business ... utType=amp


Spirit Airlines canceled nearly half its schedule for Tuesday, the third straight day of extremely high cancellation numbers at the budget airline.

By early afternoon, the low-cost carrier had canceled about 320 flights, or 47% of its schedule, according to the FlightAware tracking service. Dozens more flights were late. The blame appeared to lie at least partly with a technology outage affecting crew scheduling.


"To error is human. To really fowl up requires a computer."

Debate on source if quote:

https://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/12/0 ... %20passage.

Lightsaber
 
AntonioMartin
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Re: Time to bring back (some) regulation

Tue Aug 03, 2021 10:10 pm

Jetport wrote:
I'm surprised the thread on the Spirit meltdown was closed, merged and buried in the rarely visited "Travel, Polls & Preferences" thread.

That happens with all threads here. :D
 
freakyrat
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Re: Time to bring back (some) regulation

Tue Aug 03, 2021 10:17 pm

The problem I see at Southwest is they are making schedule changes to better utilize aircraft and to allow them to retrain recalled crews and their reservation computers keep making mistakes when they rebook customers that their employees have to go in and make the proper rebooks. One just recently happened to me where they didn't offer my original connecting flight in Chicago and their computer automatically rebooked me on a connection through Denver which would of entailed and additional 4 hrs of flying. I caught their flub up in their email and went in to my reservation and changed my connecting city to BWI for my flight to Boston and I get in at the same time. My connecting flight back to Texas thhrough Chicago was fine so I left it alone. Well their computer terminated my return to Texas at Midway and I couldn't change it. So I had to call Res to do it which they got things straightened out and explained to me that I was not suppose to get the original changed flight email before their reservation staff checked it and changed it to something more appropriate.
 
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zeke
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Re: Time to bring back (some) regulation

Tue Aug 03, 2021 10:25 pm

MohawkWeekend wrote:
Thought this would be an appropriate time to offer this up as a topic to discuss. If I were a betting man, Congressional hearings are going to be held after this week's meltdowns.

We can all agree that America's airlines have never suffered through a more disruptive last couple of days. And not just ULCC's have been impacted. This laissez-faire approach (race to the bottom) of consumer rights and corporate behavior has reached the logical conclusion of unfettered competition.

After $50 plus billion dollars of aid, it's time to admit that airlines are public utilities. You cant be so essential and then provide this level of public service.


Well you could go down that path of hearings etc and waste a few years and get nothing done, or look to what they have did in Europe. They gave passengers rights, and compensation had to get paid by airlines when rights were impacted. https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content ... 32004R0261

So what this means is airfares are slightly more expensive as airlines effectively self insure for some compensation, they will try an get it right all the time, however there are occasions that they dont. And when they dont get it right, passengers know in advance the compensation they are entitled to. The real change is the corporate mindset change, they no longer can do what they want, they need to provide the minimum of service of what they were contracted to do, fly from A to B at this time on this day. Nothing about seat pitch, toilets, or food onboard.
 
freakyrat
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Re: Time to bring back (some) regulation

Tue Aug 03, 2021 10:26 pm

This past Sunday there was also a maintenance delay at SBN of American Eagle's (Skywest) CRJ700 morning flight back to DFW which ended up going on for 13hrs as Thunderstorms around DFW and a Ground Stop added to the delay. After 13hrs the flight was finally cancelled due to the weather and probably a timed out crew. Well the 65 passengers were rebooked on the two DFW flights on Monday and a connecting flight through Charlotte which resulted in no empty seats on the 2 CRJ700 flights an no empty seats on 1 CRJ900 Charlotte flight. Today was the day AA had seats available. In this case someone should have made the decision to cancel the flight earlier or AA should have found an aircraft to operate the flight.
 
seat1a
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Re: Time to bring back (some) regulation

Tue Aug 03, 2021 10:29 pm

Yikes, regulation is anti-competitive. But I'm all for re-regulation if it does the following only: increase seat pitch (34" in Economy), Regal Imperial Service for coach passengers on all flights over 2 1/2 hours, printed timetables using fabulous paper and ink (with route maps and itineraries), and names for routes (Mainliner JFK-LAX, etal), and M/S on some short hauls like DFW-MSY a la Braniff.
 
freakyrat
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Re: Time to bring back (some) regulation

Tue Aug 03, 2021 10:30 pm

The problem with the ULCC carriers and their meltdowns is they sometimes use contractors to run their ground ops and these rookies do not know how to handle an IROP Situation. Spirit is a prime example as it happens at DFW.
 
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FLALEFTY
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Re: Time to bring back (some) regulation

Tue Aug 03, 2021 10:31 pm

Trying to piece the "crime scene" together, the NK meltdown apparently started last Saturday when a line of T-storms hunkered down on DFW, which is one of their bases. If everything had worked as planned the DFW-based flights would have radiated out to NK's system and eventually circulated through their other bases, but this didn't happen due to the rough weather. To make things worse, NK's aggressive scheduling had little to no slack built in, or enough reserve crews and spare aircraft to compensate for the flight cancellations and major delays in and out of DFW. Then the "dominoes" began to fall around their system as planes/crews needed for other flights never arrived, leading to the well-publicized issues like the passenger revolt at SJU and stranded NK passengers who turned the lobbies of MCO and FLL into replicas of public hurricane shelters.

In defense of NK, they had come a long way since the last decade improving service. They have invested in newer, more reliable aircraft. They also started paying industry-competitive wages to attract and retain good pilots and cabin crew. And their on-time performance has been generally competitive with the legacy airlines. On a personal level, my wife and (adult) daughter recently flew on NK and they were very happy with the service.

Much is said about the limited number of toilets and lack of seat pitch, but the market has spoken and most passengers would rather squeeze-in & "hold it" for 2 or 3 hours than pay 50% more to have effectively the same experience on AA, DL or UA. In my opinion, there is no need for any government to intervene with regulations specifying airliner interior layouts.

As for service meltdowns, AA also had one due to the DFW weather over the last few days, so NK had some company in their misery. Sad to say, but these things just happen from time to time. The bad publicity that NK is getting will last maybe another news cycle, then it will fade away. In a month, or so, NK's planes will be full and all will be forgiven.
 
MohawkWeekend
Topic Author
Posts: 1085
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:06 pm

Re: Time to bring back (some) regulation

Tue Aug 03, 2021 10:48 pm

zeke wrote:
MohawkWeekend wrote:
Thought this would be an appropriate time to offer this up as a topic to discuss. If I were a betting man, Congressional hearings are going to be held after this week's meltdowns.

We can all agree that America's airlines have never suffered through a more disruptive last couple of days. And not just ULCC's have been impacted. This laissez-faire approach (race to the bottom) of consumer rights and corporate behavior has reached the logical conclusion of unfettered competition.

After $50 plus billion dollars of aid, it's time to admit that airlines are public utilities. You cant be so essential and then provide this level of public service.


Well you could go down that path of hearings etc and waste a few years and get nothing done, or look to what they have did in Europe. They gave passengers rights, and compensation had to get paid by airlines when rights were impacted. https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content ... 32004R0261

So what this means is airfares are slightly more expensive as airlines effectively self insure for some compensation, they will try an get it right all the time, however there are occasions that they dont. And when they dont get it right, passengers know in advance the compensation they are entitled to. The real change is the corporate mindset change, they no longer can do what they want, they need to provide the minimum of service of what they were contracted to do, fly from A to B at this time on this day. Nothing about seat pitch, toilets, or food onboard.



I'll take what Zeke is saying - the European's are right on this.
 
Babyshark
Posts: 321
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:48 pm

Re: Time to bring back (some) regulation

Tue Aug 03, 2021 10:49 pm

MohawkWeekend wrote:
Thought this would be an appropriate time to offer this up as a topic to discuss. If I were a betting man, Congressional hearings are going to be held after this week's meltdowns.

We can all agree that America's airlines have never suffered through a more disruptive last couple of days. And not just ULCC's have been impacted. This laissez-faire approach (race to the bottom) of consumer rights and corporate behavior has reached the logical conclusion of unfettered competition.

After $50 plus billion dollars of aid, it's time to admit that airlines are public utilities. You cant be so essential and then provide this level of public service.


We need to regulate Congress.
 
737307
Posts: 2945
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:27 pm

Re: Time to bring back (some) regulation

Tue Aug 03, 2021 11:10 pm

My experience has mostly been positive. Then again, I typically do not fly the cheapest of the cheapest. I pay for reliability and comfort.
That said, a bit more regulation a la Europe might be useful.
 
FlapOperator
Posts: 439
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2021 4:07 pm

Re: Time to bring back (some) regulation

Tue Aug 03, 2021 11:18 pm

I do love how Deregulation advocates from the 1970s onward claim every positive trend as proof of the virtue of Deregulation as it was conducted, and rarely claim the downsides.

Come to think of it, no different than when Kahn engaged in a blatant act of crony Capitalism in 1979 as it is today.
 
User avatar
NameOmitted
Posts: 1070
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2016 7:59 pm

Re: Time to bring back (some) regulation

Tue Aug 03, 2021 11:30 pm

FlapOperator wrote:
I do love how Deregulation advocates from the 1970s onward claim every positive trend as proof of the virtue of Deregulation as it was conducted, and rarely claim the downsides.

So, to further discussion, which positive trends should be attributed to deregulation, and which trends should not?
 
SteelChair
Posts: 1745
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:37 am

Re: Time to bring back (some) regulation

Tue Aug 03, 2021 11:33 pm

I agree with a lot of the posters on this thread. Let's go whole hog.....raise and standardize air fares to support the proposed improvements. Benefits on top of those already listed: 1) Return a livable wage to airline workers. 2) Allow enough profitability to subsidize the manufacturers to develop new airframes and engines (hint: LCC's and cargo carriers ain't gonna do it and someone has to).

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