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LCDFlight
Posts: 1337
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:22 pm

Re: Time to bring back (some) regulation

Wed Aug 04, 2021 5:13 pm

formeraa wrote:
hayzel777 wrote:
MohawkWeekend wrote:
It's not just ULCC's - quotes from the Reuters link I posted above

By midafternoon Monday, Spirit Airlines canceled about 290 flights — more than one-third of its schedule — citing weather and “operational challenges.” That was after canceling one-fifth of its flights Sunday. The Florida-based discount carrier was “working around the clock to get back on track,” spokesman Field Sutton said.

American Airlines canceled 500 flights, or 16% of Monday’s schedule by late afternoon."

The government mandates a lot for the air consumers good. Recently for example the rule regarding keeping people on planes for hours on end. If there was financial penalty for such behaviors, paid direct to the consumer as is done in Europe, it will deter those behaviors. Otherwise they go broke. And that includes not being able to return to normal service for days after a storm. That should be a capability every carrier has to have to be able to operate in the US.

AA cancels are the result of the god awful weather in the DFW area on Sunday. The network is still feeling the cascading effects since a bunch of the crew timed out and planes got stuck at spokes.

There was hail, heavy winds and rain, and extreme lightning. DFW even suffered damage to one of the runways from a lightning strike.


BINGO! I am old enough to remember how much the fares were in the regulated market (and right after deregulation as well). My first trip home from college at Christmas cost $339 round trip from BOS to SEA. I paid for it out of my summer job wages, which paid a whopping $2.10 per hour. Oh, and yes, $339 was in 1980 with the "benefit" of deregulation (prior to that, it would have been $100 more). But planes were only 60% full (except at Christmas where every seat was taken) and, yes, you did get at least one hot meals (that everyone complained about). Movies were free, but you had to "rent" the tubular headphones for $3 (and make sure not to sit too far from the movie screens). Checked bags were free, but lines were generally long to check the bags. Oh, and then, you would have to get in line again at the gate to get your seat assignment (a sticker on your boarding pass from a physical seat map) and the agent would scribble some unintelligible markings on your ticket with a Sharpie -- UA used a green market).

Then, when you got to your destination, you would have to wait for a long period at the baggage claim to pick up your luggage (sometimes waiting for up to an hour, if it was a full DC-10 with 200 of your best friends). But traveling was SO much more civilized back in the days of yore...

Basically, regulations will lead to higher fares to make up the "cost" of the regulations.


Yeah, I worked in the operations & analysis side. People typically don't realize that competent airlines run about 90% as well as human beings can possibly run such an operation. To run a big network 80% full, cruising at 500 mph, in near perfect safety? It is an everyday miracle. It is also extremely energy efficient.

How many things in life are so incredibly dialed in? Few of us are at 90% of our physical fitness capability. Few of us do our jobs at 90% of the world record level.

I am just saying airlines cannot get much cheaper or better than they already are. Relentless competition has created a good result.
 
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jscottwomack
Posts: 69
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Re: Time to bring back (some) regulation

Wed Aug 04, 2021 5:59 pm

MohawkWeekend wrote:
Thought this would be an appropriate time to offer this up as a topic to discuss. If I were a betting man, Congressional hearings are going to be held after this week's meltdowns.

We can all agree that America's airlines have never suffered through a more disruptive last couple of days. And not just ULCC's have been impacted. This laissez-faire approach (race to the bottom) of consumer rights and corporate behavior has reached the logical conclusion of unfettered competition.

After $50 plus billion dollars of aid, it's time to admit that airlines are public utilities. You cant be so essential and then provide this level of public service.



Regulation will only make things worse. You can't regulate service standards. There are too many variables that are out of anyone persons control i.e. weather, internet/tech disruptions. Have you ever been to a government run entity? Post Office, DMV??? The scariest words to my ears are "I am from the Government and I am here to Help!"

Let the private sector work it out. The public will speak with their wallet. I pay to fly Business or First Class for the service. Just booked a First Class Ticket today from OKC to SDF for $288. Flight is in 9 days. I could have paid $175 for coach, but I want to board first, have a drink and not worry about paying for luggage. Airline Ticket prices are approximately the same today as they were 30 years ago.
 
blockski
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Re: Time to bring back (some) regulation

Wed Aug 04, 2021 6:12 pm

MohawkWeekend wrote:


You don't see the connection but the European aviation regulators have. Interesting.


No, I'm saying your posts are vague and unpersuasive.

Plan on running a schedule that needs everything to go absolutely right for chaos not to occur. Have your crew's time out - so sad, too bad. Plan on running large departure banks in areas prone to severe weather. Crews time out. Tough luck guy. We won't be able to accommodate you for a couple of days because we've sold out our flights for the next few days. Computer system goes belly up - whoops.

Passengers time is worth money. Maybe airline delays don't disappear but don't make me beg or hire a lawyer for any kind of compensation.


Again, there's a big difference between looking at these problems and picking a regulatory solution. You opened the thread calling for "bringing back" some kind of "regulations." So, do you want to bring back the Civil Aeronautics Board to have complete authority over airline schedules, routes, etc?

I'm all for more consumer protections, but again - that's an entirely different category of regulation.
 
chonetsao
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Re: Time to bring back (some) regulation

Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:04 pm

jscottwomack wrote:
Regulation will only make things worse. You can't regulate service standards. There are too many variables that are out of anyone persons control i.e. weather, internet/tech disruptions. Have you ever been to a government run entity? Post Office, DMV??? The scariest words to my ears are "I am from the Government and I am here to Help!"

Let the private sector work it out. The public will speak with their wallet. I pay to fly Business or First Class for the service. Just booked a First Class Ticket today from OKC to SDF for $288. Flight is in 9 days. I could have paid $175 for coach, but I want to board first, have a drink and not worry about paying for luggage. Airline Ticket prices are approximately the same today as they were 30 years ago.


I am all for deregulation.

However, your opening statement [regulation will only make things worse] is not necessarily true.

For instance, all these safety regulations did make flying safer. Whether it is the design of the cargo doors (memory lane: the B747 mid-air disaster), or the escape exit regulations (memory lane: Manchester UK escape disaster)...to name a few. Aviation safety certainly benefited from regulation.

In airliner business, if the regulation will benefit consumers, I don't see why it should not be introduced. It is important to know which regulation and how it works first before we say it is a good one or bad one.
 
Exeiowa
Posts: 410
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Re: Time to bring back (some) regulation

Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:44 pm

I think there should be a minimum floor of service that airlines should have to compete above. I do not know where that should be, but there can be one. Airline passengers are regulated themselves into what they can and cannot do. For example there are limits on compensation for lost or damaged possession below their actual value, transportation is not guaranteed and you can be compelled to forgo your travel for need of the airline. You are restricted by what clothes you may wear while flying.

So the idea that regulation exist on passengers is not normally disputed, I think that some reciprocation is not unreasonable.
 
Jetport
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Re: Time to bring back (some) regulation

Wed Aug 04, 2021 8:01 pm

IceCream wrote:
Flying has become significantly cheaper due to LCCs and ULCC's and basic economy. Airlines can fly to many more places because of their hub and spoke system. Sometimes things go wrong. Even with a point to point a larger base could have issues that cause ripple effects throughout the network. You can't really regulate airlines until delays and cancellations go away.

Maybe some stricter compensation requirements for cancellations and some delays would be beneficial to the consumer, but running an airline is hard and ultimately things can go wrong. This specific situation is unacceptable by Spirit but it's not American's fault that DFW had a thunderstorm. The only thing more regulation would do is increase passenger costs significantly. You can't expect luxury or even decent legroom if you're paying 20 bucks. Of course, you're going to be charged for everything in that case because that's how the airline would make money and not go bankrupt.


You are giving a false choice, the EU proves you can have low fares and hold incompetent airlines accountable. The EU has much tougher regulations including generous mandatory compensation when there are airline caused delays, yet they still have Ryanair, EasyJet etc. offering rock bottom fares very similar to Spirit, Frontier, etc.
 
JayinKitsap
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Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 9:55 am

Re: Time to bring back (some) regulation

Wed Aug 04, 2021 8:35 pm

Yes, we should require 3 bags to be free for each ticket, including golf clubs, barbell sets, and skies. Delays should be compensated at $100/hr even if for maintenance or weather. Those planes can certainly fly through a tornado thank you. Lost bags get compensated at $1,000 each. Seats should be the size of domestic first class as a minimum, emotional assistance animals should be allowed in the cabin, up to and including 200 pound mastiffs and ponies. Meals must be included and be served with real china and meet CDC requirements for a healthy meal. All airline employees must be paid $50/hr minimum and have a pension starting after 20 years of service.

Yes it would be a wonderful world with regulation, providing a bargain price of $2,500 to fly NYC to Miami.

America has done more than 50 years of "We must have a law regarding this", we now have thousands upon thousands of laws, of which most are not enforced or selectively enforced. Most regulations fail badly in a cost / benefit analysis.

If Spirit screws up too many times with a customer, the customer will go elsewhere, reviews will make one think "do I risk crappy service to save $ 20".
 
AntonioMartin
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Re: Time to bring back (some) regulation

Wed Aug 04, 2021 8:52 pm

seat1a wrote:
Yikes, regulation is anti-competitive. But I'm all for re-regulation if it does the following only: increase seat pitch (34" in Economy), Regal Imperial Service for coach passengers on all flights over 2 1/2 hours, printed timetables using fabulous paper and ink (with route maps and itineraries), and names for routes (Mainliner JFK-LAX, etal), and M/S on some short hauls like DFW-MSY a la Braniff.

And more jets 737-A220 and larger, up to 747 and A380, on intrastate routes!

Like when Western had DC-10 and Eastern L-1011 from Fort Laudedale to Miami and TWA, Delta, Eastern had 727s from Phoenix to Tucson competing with America West's 737s and United had 747 LAX to SFO....

There are some intrastate jet flights still there on Airbus and Boeing out-there, but they are too few and far in between these days.
 
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WALmsp
Posts: 314
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Re: Time to bring back (some) regulation

Wed Aug 04, 2021 9:15 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
MohawkWeekend wrote:
As mentioned before
[...]
Mandatory rebooking on the next available flight regardless of carrier or cost.
[...]

My suggestions.

Imagine the following conversation at a car dealership:
Sorry sir, your $14K Mitsubishi Mirage has been delayed from the factory. But, the dealership next door has a $455K Rolls-Royce Phantom. Let's go do the paperwork; don't worry, it won't cost you an extra dime, we'll cover the difference


Yeah, tell that to company executives...


Or, how about:

"I know I bought a stripped-down model but why doesn't it have better air conditioning, a high-end radio, or leather seats?"
 
IADFCO
Posts: 293
Joined: Sun May 22, 2016 4:20 pm

Re: Time to bring back (some) regulation

Wed Aug 04, 2021 9:25 pm

I'd say, regulate the information airlines need to disclose to those who want to buy a ticket, and make sure that that information is in a standardized format so that it can be readily used by search engines. This means saying to the airlines: "You can do whatever you like, but you must be upfront about it".

Definitely, ticket prices with all additional fees and surcharges already worked in. Next, statistics for that flight on on-time departures/arrivals and involuntary denied boardings due to overbooking. Lots more information is readily available in the airlines (and DOT) databases, but these two types IMHO would be a good starting point.

Then, let the consumer decide.
 
TriStarship
Posts: 2
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Re: Time to bring back (some) regulation

Wed Aug 04, 2021 9:51 pm

stlAV8R wrote:
The regulation that needs to happen needs to be centered around the fact that essentially, and sadly, airlines don't have to get you from point A to B within reason if it doesn't choose to. The regulation needs to focus on what happens to people when things don't go as planned. Airlines must be responsible to people or be penalized heavily. That's it.

I feel like the best example of what I mean is the Sun Country flight that someone mentioned either here or another thread about their last seasonal flight in 2018 that cancelled and the airline said "figure it out". While things happen and as an independent company, they have the right to do so, they should also know that, because of the nature of their business, the decision to not rectify the situation will cost heavily. There should be no way an airline can do that. Now, what the answer is to situations like Sun Country and what's happening these past days with Spirit, I'm not sure but that has to be the focus.

People just need reasonable options. If Spirit wants to sell tickets for $29 all in from here to Timbuktu, they should have to honor that. No backing out at the last moment leaving people with no reasonable recourse. Imagine if you're mid-trip and the next cheapest option is $729. You should not be expected to cover that. The airline should have to say "we want to break our contract with you. Here's $729 which is the current value of your flight." They should know it will cost them that $700 difference plus maybe an additional penalty to break the arrangement for example. This is just an example of what I mean (not perfect I know) but I think it's the only next move.

Thoughts? I feel like contracts even between airlines and let's say the USPS for example are like this so why not with the passenger.


100x this

A shocking number of people seem to forget the human element here, and think it's perfectly acceptable to strand people hundreds or thousands of miles from home for days with almost no recourse because they bought a cheap ticket. I think most people who fly Spirit understand that they are getting what they pay for in terms of service, seat pitch, nickel-and-dime fees and so on. What they do NOT expect is to be left high and dry in a situation where, besides waiting days for the airline to sort itself out, the only way to get home is to spend 20x as much on a last minute flight on another airline. And if they don't want to sleep in the airport, spending hundreds more on accommodations they didn't plan for. You can't simultaneously say that it's great that cheap air travel has opened up flying to many more people, while shaming those people for not having the resources to afford pricy last minute options when things go wrong.

I agree that it wouldn't be wise to regulate seat pitch, amenities, staffing levels, etc. But there is an understanding that the ticket I paid for will get me where I need to be in a reasonable amount of time, and if that can't happen I should be otherwise accommodated or reimbursed for the trouble. What other industry allows a company to screw people over like that with no consequences? If there were regulations for real financial consequences for airlines who put passengers in these terrible situations, it might make an airline rethink designing a schedule that only works when things are going 100% right. And that itself might help the rest fall into place.
 
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jscottwomack
Posts: 69
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Re: Time to bring back (some) regulation

Wed Aug 04, 2021 9:52 pm

chonetsao wrote:
jscottwomack wrote:
Regulation will only make things worse. You can't regulate service standards. There are too many variables that are out of anyone persons control i.e. weather, internet/tech disruptions. Have you ever been to a government run entity? Post Office, DMV??? The scariest words to my ears are "I am from the Government and I am here to Help!"

Let the private sector work it out. The public will speak with their wallet. I pay to fly Business or First Class for the service. Just booked a First Class Ticket today from OKC to SDF for $288. Flight is in 9 days. I could have paid $175 for coach, but I want to board first, have a drink and not worry about paying for luggage. Airline Ticket prices are approximately the same today as they were 30 years ago.


I am all for deregulation.

However, your opening statement [regulation will only make things worse] is not necessarily true.

For instance, all these safety regulations did make flying safer. Whether it is the design of the cargo doors (memory lane: the B747 mid-air disaster), or the escape exit regulations (memory lane: Manchester UK escape disaster)...to name a few. Aviation safety certainly benefited from regulation.

In airliner business, if the regulation will benefit consumers, I don't see why it should not be introduced. It is important to know which regulation and how it works first before we say it is a good one or bad one.


I was talking about what brought about Deregulation in the US in 1978. Prior to that, the Government said when and where an airline could fly. I am all for safety regulations. Sorry for the confusion.
 
Vicenza
Posts: 407
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Re: Time to bring back (some) regulation

Wed Aug 04, 2021 10:18 pm

nikeherc wrote:
The "race to the bottom" has been driven airline customers. People will travel in a sardine can to save a few dollars. The airlines have given them what they want and now the are complaining. .


No, it has been driven entirely by the airlines themselves, and what they willing offer. In my experience, most complaints by far are made by 'business' traveller's looking for something else free.
 
stlAV8R
Posts: 161
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2010 8:23 pm

Re: Time to bring back (some) regulation

Wed Aug 04, 2021 11:21 pm

TriStarship wrote:
stlAV8R wrote:
The regulation that needs to happen needs to be centered around the fact that essentially, and sadly, airlines don't have to get you from point A to B within reason if it doesn't choose to. The regulation needs to focus on what happens to people when things don't go as planned. Airlines must be responsible to people or be penalized heavily. That's it.

I feel like the best example of what I mean is the Sun Country flight that someone mentioned either here or another thread about their last seasonal flight in 2018 that cancelled and the airline said "figure it out". While things happen and as an independent company, they have the right to do so, they should also know that, because of the nature of their business, the decision to not rectify the situation will cost heavily. There should be no way an airline can do that. Now, what the answer is to situations like Sun Country and what's happening these past days with Spirit, I'm not sure but that has to be the focus.

People just need reasonable options. If Spirit wants to sell tickets for $29 all in from here to Timbuktu, they should have to honor that. No backing out at the last moment leaving people with no reasonable recourse. Imagine if you're mid-trip and the next cheapest option is $729. You should not be expected to cover that. The airline should have to say "we want to break our contract with you. Here's $729 which is the current value of your flight." They should know it will cost them that $700 difference plus maybe an additional penalty to break the arrangement for example. This is just an example of what I mean (not perfect I know) but I think it's the only next move.

Thoughts? I feel like contracts even between airlines and let's say the USPS for example are like this so why not with the passenger.


100x this

A shocking number of people seem to forget the human element here, and think it's perfectly acceptable to strand people hundreds or thousands of miles from home for days with almost no recourse because they bought a cheap ticket. I think most people who fly Spirit understand that they are getting what they pay for in terms of service, seat pitch, nickel-and-dime fees and so on. What they do NOT expect is to be left high and dry in a situation where, besides waiting days for the airline to sort itself out, the only way to get home is to spend 20x as much on a last minute flight on another airline. And if they don't want to sleep in the airport, spending hundreds more on accommodations they didn't plan for. You can't simultaneously say that it's great that cheap air travel has opened up flying to many more people, while shaming those people for not having the resources to afford pricy last minute options when things go wrong.

I agree that it wouldn't be wise to regulate seat pitch, amenities, staffing levels, etc. But there is an understanding that the ticket I paid for will get me where I need to be in a reasonable amount of time, and if that can't happen I should be otherwise accommodated or reimbursed for the trouble. What other industry allows a company to screw people over like that with no consequences? If there were regulations for real financial consequences for airlines who put passengers in these terrible situations, it might make an airline rethink designing a schedule that only works when things are going 100% right. And that itself might help the rest fall into place.

Finally! Someone who understands. Airlines are houses of cards that abuse their customers and they can do so in today's environment because the barriers for new airline entrants are too great to have a really good airline come in and be a meaningful disruptor. I'm sure Spirit is going to decline a good chunk of its passengers refunds because of weather or whatever other excuse is legal to get out of it and give them vouchers instead that will largely go unused before expiration. And those people stuck in SJU - an island - won't have a choice but to take whatever, if anything the airline offers because they still need Spirit to get home.
 
TriStarship
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2021 9:08 pm

Re: Time to bring back (some) regulation

Thu Aug 05, 2021 12:24 am

stlAV8R wrote:
TriStarship wrote:
stlAV8R wrote:
The regulation that needs to happen needs to be centered around the fact that essentially, and sadly, airlines don't have to get you from point A to B within reason if it doesn't choose to. The regulation needs to focus on what happens to people when things don't go as planned. Airlines must be responsible to people or be penalized heavily. That's it.

I feel like the best example of what I mean is the Sun Country flight that someone mentioned either here or another thread about their last seasonal flight in 2018 that cancelled and the airline said "figure it out". While things happen and as an independent company, they have the right to do so, they should also know that, because of the nature of their business, the decision to not rectify the situation will cost heavily. There should be no way an airline can do that. Now, what the answer is to situations like Sun Country and what's happening these past days with Spirit, I'm not sure but that has to be the focus.

People just need reasonable options. If Spirit wants to sell tickets for $29 all in from here to Timbuktu, they should have to honor that. No backing out at the last moment leaving people with no reasonable recourse. Imagine if you're mid-trip and the next cheapest option is $729. You should not be expected to cover that. The airline should have to say "we want to break our contract with you. Here's $729 which is the current value of your flight." They should know it will cost them that $700 difference plus maybe an additional penalty to break the arrangement for example. This is just an example of what I mean (not perfect I know) but I think it's the only next move.

Thoughts? I feel like contracts even between airlines and let's say the USPS for example are like this so why not with the passenger.


100x this

A shocking number of people seem to forget the human element here, and think it's perfectly acceptable to strand people hundreds or thousands of miles from home for days with almost no recourse because they bought a cheap ticket. I think most people who fly Spirit understand that they are getting what they pay for in terms of service, seat pitch, nickel-and-dime fees and so on. What they do NOT expect is to be left high and dry in a situation where, besides waiting days for the airline to sort itself out, the only way to get home is to spend 20x as much on a last minute flight on another airline. And if they don't want to sleep in the airport, spending hundreds more on accommodations they didn't plan for. You can't simultaneously say that it's great that cheap air travel has opened up flying to many more people, while shaming those people for not having the resources to afford pricy last minute options when things go wrong.

I agree that it wouldn't be wise to regulate seat pitch, amenities, staffing levels, etc. But there is an understanding that the ticket I paid for will get me where I need to be in a reasonable amount of time, and if that can't happen I should be otherwise accommodated or reimbursed for the trouble. What other industry allows a company to screw people over like that with no consequences? If there were regulations for real financial consequences for airlines who put passengers in these terrible situations, it might make an airline rethink designing a schedule that only works when things are going 100% right. And that itself might help the rest fall into place.

Finally! Someone who understands. Airlines are houses of cards that abuse their customers and they can do so in today's environment because the barriers for new airline entrants are too great to have a really good airline come in and be a meaningful disruptor. I'm sure Spirit is going to decline a good chunk of its passengers refunds because of weather or whatever other excuse is legal to get out of it and give them vouchers instead that will largely go unused before expiration. And those people stuck in SJU - an island - won't have a choice but to take whatever, if anything the airline offers because they still need Spirit to get home.


Exactly. I just don't think the market sorts itself out here. Of course you are going to have a few thousand passengers who will vow never to fly Spirit again. But you are going to have thousands more people enticed by $39 fares, unaware that they are one thunderstorm away from being stranded for days because the airline simply cannot handle a disruption of its regular ops. It's deceptive at best, malicious at worst. Putting in place firm rules regarding penalties for disrupted travel would incentivize airlines to actually fix the structural problems that cause it. In my opinion, legislating this kind of consumer protection is one of the few truly useful things the government actually does.
 
Speedy752
Posts: 123
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2020 4:13 am

Re: Time to bring back (some) regulation

Thu Aug 05, 2021 1:39 am

[quote="Exeiowa"]You are restricted by what clothes you may wear while flying.

Please explain this one. I’ve never been or seen anyone kicked off for dress code violations
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 2552
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Time to bring back (some) regulation

Thu Aug 05, 2021 4:17 am

Vicenza wrote:
nikeherc wrote:
The "race to the bottom" has been driven airline customers. People will travel in a sardine can to save a few dollars. The airlines have given them what they want and now the are complaining. .


No, it has been driven entirely by the airlines themselves, and what they willing offer. In my experience, most complaints by far are made by 'business' traveller's looking for something else free.

That is incorrect. When a product is offered and has no takers, it is withdrawn from the market. So, if flyers weren't chasing the last dollar, airlines wouldn't offer minimum service tickets.
Look, they created Economy Comfort (or whatever else individual airlines call it) because there was a demand for something better than Economy but not quite Business; if it wasn't selling, it would have been removed.

That's the law of offer and demand; Capitalism-101.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 2552
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Time to bring back (some) regulation

Thu Aug 05, 2021 4:20 am

Speedy752 wrote:
Exeiowa wrote:
You are restricted by what clothes you may wear while flying.

Please explain this one. I’ve never been or seen anyone kicked off for dress code violations

Really?
https://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/travel-t ... e-clothing
https://www.today.com/news/woman-says-s ... te-t193767
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/arti ... utfit.html

And so many more
 
Speedy752
Posts: 123
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2020 4:13 am

Re: Time to bring back (some) regulation

Thu Aug 05, 2021 12:10 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
Speedy752 wrote:
Exeiowa wrote:
You are restricted by what clothes you may wear while flying.

Please explain this one. I’ve never been or seen anyone kicked off for dress code violations

Really?
https://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/travel-t ... e-clothing
https://www.today.com/news/woman-says-s ... te-t193767
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/arti ... utfit.html

And so many more


Not allowing people to be “falling out of their clothes” and prescribing what people need to wear are two different things.
 
Exeiowa
Posts: 410
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:49 pm

Re: Time to bring back (some) regulation

Thu Aug 05, 2021 12:50 pm

Speedy752 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:


Not allowing people to be “falling out of their clothes” and prescribing what people need to wear are two different things.


So you are in favour of regulation on passengers clothing then?
 
BrianDromey
Posts: 3150
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2006 2:23 am

Re: Time to bring back (some) regulation

Thu Aug 05, 2021 12:58 pm

AAIL86 wrote:
I will point out - having spent some years time coding delays in years past for American Airlines, the root causes are often very tricky to determine (considering the hundreds of flights departing a major hub). For example, who's going to pay your compensation in case of ATC delays (which are some of the most frequently occuring)? The FAA or some other government agency? What about thunderstorms? Medical diversions?


EU261 is the underlying legislation and it is worth remembering that there are two elements, one is the "Duty of Care" and the other is "restitution" or Compensation in the event of delays/cancellations/denied boarding/downgrades, etc. Initially "act of God" allowed the airlines to decline the majority of claims. Over time various case law cases have compelled them to comply. The regulation was very well written in terms of "who pays for X, Y or Z?". It is the responsibility of the operating carrier. the spirit of the regulation is to deliver passengers to their final destination as close to their original planned itinerary as possible, in a way acceptable to the passenger.

The compensation side I can see an argument for and against, but I think the duty of care aspect is reasonable. ABC cant just abandon you at a remote airport for days on end because thats when their next flight is. While many airline bosses will argue that it is necessary, will lead to higher fares, job losses and all the rest of it that absolutely did not happen in Europe. Ryanair, Wizz, easyJet, IAG, AF/KL, LH Group have all expanded their flights and fleets since EU261 came into force in 2004. HAs any airline that has gone out of business since reported EU261 as a contributing factor? I can't think of one.
 
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TVNWZ
Posts: 2342
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Re: Time to bring back (some) regulation

Thu Aug 05, 2021 2:19 pm

Guess who will write any new regulations.
The airlines and their lobbyists will. It will look like, and be sold as, a big step forward for flyer’s rights. But will actually be word salad with lots of loop holes.

Oh, when this meltdown is over, Spirit planes will be packed to the gills. The public has short memories and loves the cheap flights.

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