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F27500
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Re: Insane Cockpit Video of 737-300 Landing

Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:36 am

I love how he says "Sorry .. Sorry.." right after the crash landing. LOL Who's he apologizing to? All those Moderna vaccine vials back there?
 
Astronage
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Re: Insane Cockpit Video of 737-300 Landing

Fri Aug 06, 2021 12:09 pm

fsnuffer wrote:
aviationjunky wrote:
Can you imagine seeing the aircraft trying to land from the ground? I'm sure it looked crazy from all angles.


No need to imagine

https://youtu.be/siCo5LP374o


No the same plane. Looks like a Jurassic, from the shape of the vertical stabilizer base.
 
NZ321
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Re: Insane Cockpit Video of 737-300 Landing

Fri Aug 06, 2021 1:19 pm

After going through one such incident myself as a passenger, I made a decision not to fly on regional airlines in Indonesia and to avoid their airlines altogether where at all possible. it's not easy sometimes. Yet, I've had too many close calls.
 
hivue
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Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:26 am

Re: Insane Cockpit Video of 737-300 Landing

Fri Aug 06, 2021 1:59 pm

zeke wrote:
What I don't understand is why they are using a 737 for this.

The COVID vaccines come in boxes with around 975 viles, each vile with 5 doses. They have a population of around 12,000 people there, two doses each that is 24,000 doses. Lets say they also get some surrounding area people in and need 34,000 doses (around 17,000 people).

Each box has 975x5=4875 doses, 34,000/4875=6.9 boxes, round up to 7 boxes.

Each box has a weight of 70 lb, total load 490lb/222 kg

Hardly can justify a 737 for that job.


To me this has the odor of international beaurocracy correctness trumping common sense. If they flew it in on, say, a scheduled Caravan with other freight for Paro or in the baggage hold of a Bhutan Airlines or Druk Air regularly scheduled passenger service and these aren't listed on some piece of paper somewhere as authorized to deliver vaccines in that part of the world then... well, obviously we just can't have that sort of thing going on can we? :roll:
 
jellyhead
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Re: Insane Cockpit Video of 737-300 Landing

Fri Aug 06, 2021 2:16 pm

sierrakilo44 wrote:
jellyhead wrote:
BEG2IAH wrote:
I can't believe what I've just seen. Two random people picked up from the street could have landed this poor plane better.


Chill down mate, most likely you don't even know where Paro airport is and obviously you have never ever landed there, let alone in 737. But you are very good in judging others, aren't you? Paro is VFR airport only, is rather hight(elev 7300ft)and is on difficult side of the airports to approach(which is absolutely spectacular and some cockpit jumpseaters can get scared quite a bit) and land. Under normal circumstances pilots have to be specially trained to operate in/out and ultimately checked out and approved by bhutanese DCA. And there is a reason for that. Obviously these indonesian guys in the cockpit flying one-off hum-relief flight received none of it so for them it is a first time. Furthermore there may be a (performance?) reason 737s are seldomly operating in/out of Paro(this may very well be the first 737-300 visiting the place) as Paro is mainly A319 and ATR territory.

While this certainly was miserable approach and landing, it has to be pointed out that Paro airport and it's conditions(hot, high, terrain, winds) are not ordinary pilot's bread and butter. It seems they were heavy and very keen on putting that old baby down so they can avoid going missed. Not an excuse, just saying this is difficult airport to operate to without previous experience and training.


You serious bro? It doesn’t matter if it’s Paro or Heathrow there’s things you don’t do in a jet:

Bank Angle warning - early indication your approach is unstable

Pitch attitude before the “sink rate” is obviously far too low

“Sink Rate - Pull Up” - mandatory Go Around in almost every airline

Aircraft sinking fast and thrust isn’t immediately applied

Aircraft lined up to the right of the runway over the threshold

No flare, probable nose wheel touchdown,

Here’s a longer video of the incident:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?time_contin ... =emb_title

The pilot on the jumpseat who is filming seems to be the one issuing orders. One pilots apologises “sorry, sorry” to what appears to be his superior after landing. This may be a sign of the cultural tendency of Indonesians to not speak up and not challenge superiors. My thought is at least one “pilot” (I use that term loosely) on the flight deck would have had to have concerns with the approach but was too scared to speak up, maybe they had been instructed to get these vaccines to Bhutan as soon as possible, otherwise they would be fired.


Very serious actually. If you read my whole comment I definitely do not justify the actions of the indonesian crew - it certainly was one big cockup almost resulting in crashlanding. However I do understand how it ended up like that. People who have never done that approach into Paro can not imagine. You just can't unless you did it and I did(although from observer's jumpseat) so I know it must be superchallenging for the first time, without anybody onboard who did it before and without prep which is normally required(and for a reason so). This was one-off relief flight so I would bet there was no prep whatsoever. Most likely TriMG ops called those guys telling them to pack their crew bags and to report for charter flight to Paro with vaccines the next morning. It wouldn't surprise me they saw Paro approach chart for the first time in the morning the day they landed there. Don't expect any western standards, preparation or support to its crews from the third tier indonesian cargo operator. I flew in Indonesia for 2 years and have heard the stories that even better operators than this one are motivating their crews not to go missed by cutting their salaries when they do. So what I wanted to say is that those 2 drivers may be ok pilots for flying their usual island hopping milk runs they know like a palm of their hand but put them into something so challenging and unique like Paro without proper prep and with all that additional "covid vaccines" pressure and it is a recipe for disaster.
 
hivue
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Re: Insane Cockpit Video of 737-300 Landing

Fri Aug 06, 2021 3:21 pm

jellyhead wrote:
So what I wanted to say is that those 2 drivers may be ok pilots for flying their usual island hopping milk runs they know like a palm of their hand but put them into something so challenging and unique like Paro without proper prep and with all that additional "covid vaccines" pressure and it is a recipe for disaster.


So what about the third guy in the jump seat giving all the instructions? According to the Mentour Pilot video linked above he's a Paro qualified "guide pilot" who provided the expert knowledge for flying the approach, which made the flight technically "legal."

I wonder where this flight was staged from? If it wasn't just a short hop over the mountains from somewhere in Northeastern India, but instead had to come from Bangkok, Jakarta, or Singapore that may explain why a 737 was used for delivery. The vaccine may need to have been specially temperature controlled for a longer flight. Perhaps this 737 was specifically outfitted for that. The Paro authorized jumpseater (a captain from Bhutan Airlines or Druk Air possibly?) may not be qualified in the 737 so he just had to hand out directions and advice.
 
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NearMiss
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Re: Insane Cockpit Video of 737-300 Landing

Fri Aug 06, 2021 3:38 pm

In the words of the great Ace Ventura: "Like a glove!"
 
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SuseJ772
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Re: Insane Cockpit Video of 737-300 Landing

Fri Aug 06, 2021 4:32 pm

zeke wrote:
What I don't understand is why they are using a 737 for this.

The COVID vaccines come in boxes with around 975 viles, each vile with 5 doses. They have a population of around 12,000 people there, two doses each that is 24,000 doses. Lets say they also get some surrounding area people in and need 34,000 doses (around 17,000 people).

Each box has 975x5=4875 doses, 34,000/4875=6.9 boxes, round up to 7 boxes.

Each box has a weight of 70 lb, total load 490lb/222 kg

Hardly can justify a 737 for that job.


My only thought was the containers they are put in to keep them very cold. I have seen the large ones loaded into 777/A350/747. I am sure they have smaller ones, but they are still probably pretty heavy and voluminous would be my guess. But only just a guess.
 
9252fly
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Re: Insane Cockpit Video of 737-300 Landing

Fri Aug 06, 2021 6:43 pm

I'm not going to debate the general consensus on the approach, it has however led me to a question. How many actual pilots could have successfully landed that aircraft in the same poorly executed approach, all I've read is that they should have gone around, which I'm not debating?
 
BEG2IAH
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Re: Insane Cockpit Video of 737-300 Landing

Fri Aug 06, 2021 7:15 pm

Scorpio wrote:
Here's a fairly detailed take on the incident from Mentour Pilot on YouTube. There's a guide pilot on board who's familiar with the airport, riding the jump seat. He's the one giving the instructions. Also explains why they're speaking English.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tga6fn6nXI


Thank you for sharing; Mentour Pilot is great as always. The pilot flying didn't follow the commands closely and made a late right turn, which eventually caused all the corrections and the botched landing. To summarize, the pilot flying is not closely following what he is told by the guiding pilot, the pilot monitoring is filming (?!?), and the guiding pilot is giving instructions and filming.
 
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zeke
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Re: Insane Cockpit Video of 737-300 Landing

Fri Aug 06, 2021 7:16 pm

SuseJ772 wrote:

My only thought was the containers they are put in to keep them very cold. I have seen the large ones loaded into 777/A350/747. I am sure they have smaller ones, but they are still probably pretty heavy and voluminous would be my guess. But only just a guess.


Those containers are designed to be placed underfloor in wide bodies, that is not possible on the 737, they would have loaded them as boxes. The boxes contain a quantity of dry ice in them. Part is not like a large international airport, to unload the main deck they would need to use something like a fork lift as the airport is too small for larger cargo loaders.

Maybe they carried in vaccines for all or Butan, for around 800,000 people not just the surrounding area. That would make for sense, that would be 10-11 tonnes which makes it more of a 737 load.
 
889091
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Re: Insane Cockpit Video of 737-300 Landing

Sat Aug 07, 2021 11:14 am

Found this on YouTube, uploaded by none other than Sam Chui in 2019...

https://youtu.be/SbLHah4XUwk?t=576
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Insane Cockpit Video of 737-300 Landing

Sat Aug 07, 2021 11:42 am

9252fly wrote:
I'm not going to debate the general consensus on the approach, it has however led me to a question. How many actual pilots could have successfully landed that aircraft in the same poorly executed approach, all I've read is that they should have gone around, which I'm not debating?


Not a pilot, but my 1c. the pilot flying seemed to bet all his chips on an insanely steep final correction, apparently planning to flare more than he did. At such a difficult airport, he didn’t have a lot of leeway to start with. Then he fumbled the whole approach. The guide pilot was no help, perhaps saying “be careful, don’t worry” and still egging the guy to land. So he goes for this insane final dive. That part is true WTF.

If you are asking who could have landed that, if he did a good flare, maybe he could have greased that. But my limited understanding is pilots never want to make rash, risky maneuvers without better planning. The idea is fly properly in order to avoid risks. Not take them.
 
bluecrew
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Re: Insane Cockpit Video of 737-300 Landing

Sat Aug 07, 2021 4:34 pm

InnsbruckFlyer wrote:
Is anyone familiar with the 737 Classic flight deck? After they slam down, two red lights at the center above where the EICAS would be light up. What does that mean and is it normal?

Looks like the reverser indication to me.
 
ozark1
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Re: Insane Cockpit Video of 737-300 Landing

Sat Aug 07, 2021 5:29 pm

889091 wrote:
Found this on YouTube, uploaded by none other than Sam Chui in 2019...

https://youtu.be/SbLHah4XUwk?t=576

Another reason not to step foot on those carriers. He was being a tour guide at 2500ft. I guess Sterile Cockpit has no meaning for them.
 
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Melbourne
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Re: Insane Cockpit Video of 737-300 Landing

Sat Aug 07, 2021 5:30 pm

AngelsDecay wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
To be fair, Paro is very difficult landing. Only turboprops and Bae-146's were able to operate there for years. Even Druk Air only uses A319's now.


Not correct...for some time other models are being used there such as boeing 737-700 and Airbus 320.
For your info the other bhutanese airline besides Druk Air, talking about Tashi Air(Bhutan Airlines), leased for some time an european A320 from Small Planet wich used to have european pilots.

And that Small Planet A320 was based in Paro for some time.

https://www.littlebhutan.com/blogs/tash ... -paro.html


Druk Air itself operates an A320neo registration A5-JKW........

 
PanAm1971
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Re: Insane Cockpit Video of 737-300 Landing

Sat Aug 07, 2021 6:09 pm

Totally unacceptable. I don’t care how difficult the approach is- this “landing” is exactly how you do not want to fly this aircraft.
 
Chemist
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Re: Insane Cockpit Video of 737-300 Landing

Sat Aug 07, 2021 7:40 pm

Earlier posts mentioned lack of prep as a possibility. That is insane if it were true.
I'm a PPL and I prep before flying to a challenging GA runway such a Avalon or Big Bear in the Southern California area. Lack of prep shows incompetence, especially to Paro.
 
DUSdude
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Re: Insane Cockpit Video of 737-300 Landing

Sun Aug 08, 2021 3:52 am

sierrakilo44 wrote:
DUSdude wrote:
That guy is really behind the plane. Poor Stick and rudder skills.


Not really. His maintenance of the centreline, approach path, sink rate and touchdown point is horrible, but the often misused term “stick and rudder skills” is not the underlying cause of this incident.

This is a failure of decision making, for not making an obvious decision to go around at the about 4 times is become obvious the approach was unstable.

It’s a failure of leadership that one pilot on the flight deck in the jumpseat was seemingly pushing the two pilots in front to continue an unstable approach.

It’s a failure of teamwork that a junior pilot didn’t speak up and demand a go around, maybe because he was culturally intimidated by a superior or the company had said their jobs would be at risk if they didn’t deliver this cargo on time.

It’s a failure of the airline’s training and checking system and their management to develop a safe culture, and instead develop an unsafe culture where their pilots believe they can land safely off that approach and don’t need to go around.

This incident is a human factors nightmare.


You're saying the same thing in different ways. Yes, the decision making was horrible. But the reason it got to the point that go around decisions should have been made was because he was behind the plane. Specifically, he was unprepared that the aircraft would react with softer controls, due to the thinner air at the high altitude at which is Paro Airport (7,333ft) and the higher speed at which he was approaching as a result of the altitude. He also ignored the instruction of the Bhutanese guide sitting in the jumpseat and commenced his right turn to the runway far too late. And at the end he is still hunting the centerline so he forgets to flare. Just behind at every step.
 
Noshow
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Re: Insane Cockpit Video of 737-300 Landing

Sun Aug 08, 2021 8:03 am

So what happened to the plane? How about any damage?
 
Theseus
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Re: Insane Cockpit Video of 737-300 Landing

Sun Aug 08, 2021 9:31 pm

Cdydatzigs wrote:
This video was LITERALLY no different than me landing a 737 in Flight Simulator as a kid. I mean good lord.


Same, but to be fair, nobody was telling me "be careful... don't worry". :biggrin:
 
ABpositive
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Re: Insane Cockpit Video of 737-300 Landing

Mon Aug 09, 2021 1:36 am

F27500 wrote:
I love how he says "Sorry .. Sorry.." right after the crash landing. LOL Who's he apologizing to? All those Moderna vaccine vials back there?


I think he was apologizing to the airplane...
 
F27500
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Re: Insane Cockpit Video of 737-300 Landing

Mon Aug 09, 2021 1:45 am

ABpositive wrote:
F27500 wrote:
I love how he says "Sorry .. Sorry.." right after the crash landing. LOL Who's he apologizing to? All those Moderna vaccine vials back there?


I think he was apologizing to the airplane...


He'll be sitting across from his chief pilot apologizing the same way too .. i hope!
 
TerminalD
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Re: Insane Cockpit Video of 737-300 Landing

Mon Aug 09, 2021 2:01 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
This is then”proper” approach to Paro, one of the world’s most dangerous airports, by people that do it every single day. Note they aren’t even lined up to the runway until they are 75-100 feet off of the deck.
https://youtu.be/ZBNhwOeOf4Q


True enough, but that video is from the opposite runway as the video in the OP.

I feel like in the OP video the plane should be calling out "retard" as well. :)
 
airbazar
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Re: Insane Cockpit Video of 737-300 Landing

Mon Aug 09, 2021 2:55 pm

zeke wrote:
What I don't understand is why they are using a 737 for this.

My guess is as mentioned above, this airline has the contract to deliver the vaccines and that's the only suitable plane they have?
What I don't understand is why the Bhutanese authorities allowed a crew that was untrained for that airport to operate the flight in. Humanitarian relief or not, this flight should have never been allowed. They could have crash landed and blocked that runway for days if not weeks. I can only guess that the third pilot giving instructions was a local pilot experienced in this approach and whoever sent him there put his life at risk. That is shameful. Why not have him fly the plane that he's used to fly into Paro, carrying the vaccines? That's the part I find incomprehensible.
 
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CrewBunk
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Re: Insane Cockpit Video of 737-300 Landing

Mon Aug 09, 2021 3:27 pm

PanAm1971 wrote:
Totally unacceptable. I don’t care how difficult the approach is- this “landing” is exactly how you do not want to fly this aircraft.


Hear hear.

They could be landing on an effing aircraft carrier, but “bank angle” and “sink rate” ground proximity warnings a hundred feet above the ground are reason enough to go around. Not to mention as they were flaring, their right main was still over the edge of the runway.

It appeared they “gave up” at the end and had absolutely no control of the aircraft. Very lucky vials of vaccine indeed!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Insane Cockpit Video of 737-300 Landing

Thu Aug 12, 2021 6:16 pm

Interesting take by this pilot (Mentour pilot).
 
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Aesma
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Re: Insane Cockpit Video of 737-300 Landing

Thu Aug 12, 2021 11:27 pm

zeke mentioned slow speeds but the airport is pretty high too, it's summer, so you're going slow in high density altitude, doing sharp turns...scary.

However, they walked away, and the plane flew away, so great landing !

9252fly wrote:
I'm not going to debate the general consensus on the approach, it has however led me to a question. How many actual pilots could have successfully landed that aircraft in the same poorly executed approach, all I've read is that they should have gone around, which I'm not debating?


Strange question. Do you want a surgeon that will botch your heart surgery but not kill you in the end, by luck, or a surgeon that will do everything right and fix you, no problem ?

edit : I just saw the Sam Chui landing, with the captain making a prayer before the checklist, very reassuring !
 
jellyhead
Posts: 22
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Re: Insane Cockpit Video of 737-300 Landing

Fri Aug 13, 2021 2:22 pm

hivue wrote:
jellyhead wrote:
So what I wanted to say is that those 2 drivers may be ok pilots for flying their usual island hopping milk runs they know like a palm of their hand but put them into something so challenging and unique like Paro without proper prep and with all that additional "covid vaccines" pressure and it is a recipe for disaster.


So what about the third guy in the jump seat giving all the instructions? According to the Mentour Pilot video linked above he's a Paro qualified "guide pilot" who provided the expert knowledge for flying the approach, which made the flight technically "legal."

I wonder where this flight was staged from? If it wasn't just a short hop over the mountains from somewhere in Northeastern India, but instead had to come from Bangkok, Jakarta, or Singapore that may explain why a 737 was used for delivery. The vaccine may need to have been specially temperature controlled for a longer flight. Perhaps this 737 was specifically outfitted for that. The Paro authorized jumpseater (a captain from Bhutan Airlines or Druk Air possibly?) may not be qualified in the 737 so he just had to hand out directions and advice.


Sorry I was not aware of the "Paro qualified" 3rd crew member aboard who was guiding the 737 crew - I watched the video on computer not equipped with the speakers so I only saw the muted video. Didn't have a chance to hear or read any commentary. Regardless I don't think that additional Paro qualified crewmember was 737 rated so if they, on the last moment, got assigned an ATR or A319 driver to their cockpit it in a way may have even degraded the performance of the crew and contribute to confusion in their CRM.
 
OMP777X
Posts: 457
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Re: Insane Cockpit Video of 737-300 Landing

Fri Aug 13, 2021 11:52 pm

Someone on Twitter (@mrhapster) shared a report from Al Jazeera English that briefly shows the touchdown of this flight at the start of the clip. So apparently someone was recording the approach outside of the plane also. https://youtu.be/l7Yjq4XxFew

Best,

OMP777X
 
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zeke
Posts: 16355
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Re: Insane Cockpit Video of 737-300 Landing

Sat Aug 14, 2021 12:34 am

OMP777X wrote:
Someone on Twitter (@mrhapster) shared a report from Al Jazeera English that briefly shows the touchdown of this flight at the start of the clip. So apparently someone was recording the approach outside of the plane also. https://youtu.be/l7Yjq4XxFew

Best,

OMP777X



Is that the same livery as this photo of them unloading ?

http://www.bbs.bt/news/?p=153606
 
OMP777X
Posts: 457
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Re: Insane Cockpit Video of 737-300 Landing

Sat Aug 14, 2021 1:54 am

zeke wrote:
OMP777X wrote:
Someone on Twitter (@mrhapster) shared a report from Al Jazeera English that briefly shows the touchdown of this flight at the start of the clip. So apparently someone was recording the approach outside of the plane also. https://youtu.be/l7Yjq4XxFew

Best,

OMP777X



Is that the same livery as this photo of them unloading ?

http://www.bbs.bt/news/?p=153606

Yes, it is the same. I watched the clip just now on my TV screen and it has the same logo on the cargo door as it does on the tail, which makes it pretty easy to spot.
 
cerealspiller
Posts: 27
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Re: Insane Cockpit Video of 737-300 Landing

Sat Aug 14, 2021 5:58 pm

bluecrew wrote:
InnsbruckFlyer wrote:
Is anyone familiar with the 737 Classic flight deck? After they slam down, two red lights at the center above where the EICAS would be light up. What does that mean and is it normal?

Looks like the reverser indication to me.

I was thinking the two red lights indicate the Classic Double Tilt.

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