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FlyingHonu001
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Re: Air France KLM News and Discussion Thread - 2021

Tue Jul 27, 2021 3:49 pm

mercure1 wrote:
Here is first AF A220 out of paint shop

Image

Video of painting
https://youtu.be/IAvw7a8QS2Q



Is it too early to ask which routes the A220 is going to be deployed? :scratchchin:
 
asuflyer
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AF launching PTP-YUL/JFK

Wed Aug 04, 2021 10:33 pm

Air France is launching Pointe-à-Pitre, Guadeloupe to Montreal and New York this winter, both to be served by A320's twice weekly.
B6 started a seasonal JFK-PTP flight last year and AC and TS both fly to PTP seasonally.

https://onemileatatime.com/news/air-fra ... pe-routes/
 
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stl07
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Re: AF launching PTP-YUL/JFK

Wed Aug 04, 2021 11:12 pm

I always found AF's ATL/MIA-French Caribbean routes to be interesting since they are in DL's turf
 
MIflyer12
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Re: AF launching PTP-YUL/JFK

Wed Aug 04, 2021 11:31 pm

One might ask how many Euro French travel to Guadalupe, and how many Americans? This will just route some people after their visit to NYC. Any Americans are just gravy.
 
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adamblang
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Re: AF launching PTP-YUL/JFK

Wed Aug 04, 2021 11:33 pm

To be honest, I'm surprised the YUL-PTP service didn't already exist.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: AF launching PTP-YUL/JFK

Thu Aug 05, 2021 12:04 am

stl07 wrote:
I always found AF's ATL/MIA-French Caribbean routes to be interesting since they are in DL's turf

But it's really not. These aren't about business traffic or American beach-goers; these are (and for decades have been) targeted almost exclusively at Francophonic VFR traffic.

DL's got no hand in that; fairly certain that they don't even codeshare on these services.



adamblang wrote:
To be honest, I'm surprised the YUL-PTP service didn't already exist.

Same!
 
luckyone
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Re: AF launching PTP-YUL/JFK

Thu Aug 05, 2021 1:17 am

LAX772LR wrote:
stl07 wrote:
I always found AF's ATL/MIA-French Caribbean routes to be interesting since they are in DL's turf

But it's really not. These aren't about business traffic or American beach-goers; these are (and for decades have been) targeted almost exclusively at Francophonic VFR traffic.

DL's got no hand in that; fairly certain that they don't even codeshare on these services.



adamblang wrote:
To be honest, I'm surprised the YUL-PTP service didn't already exist.

Same!

It has, just with Air Canada.
 
MAH4546
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Re: AF launching PTP-YUL/JFK

Thu Aug 05, 2021 1:24 am

stl07 wrote:
I always found AF's ATL/MIA-French Caribbean routes to be interesting since they are in DL's turf


Atlanta operated for a very short time and ended quickly.

Air France has operated between Miami and the French Caribbean for close to 60 years now.
 
Weatherwatcher1
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Re: AF launching PTP-YUL/JFK

Thu Aug 05, 2021 2:21 am

Are these routes that Norwegian used to fly?
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: AF launching PTP-YUL/JFK

Thu Aug 05, 2021 5:58 am

luckyone wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
stl07 wrote:
I always found AF's ATL/MIA-French Caribbean routes to be interesting since they are in DL's turf

But it's really not. These aren't about business traffic or American beach-goers; these are (and for decades have been) targeted almost exclusively at Francophonic VFR traffic.

DL's got no hand in that; fairly certain that they don't even codeshare on these services.



adamblang wrote:
To be honest, I'm surprised the YUL-PTP service didn't already exist.

Same!

It has, just with Air Canada.

We know, it's in the OP. We meant with AF.
 
Someone83
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Re: AF launching PTP-YUL/JFK

Thu Aug 05, 2021 6:27 am

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
Are these routes that Norwegian used to fly?


They did fly between Guadeloupe and New York with 737-800 for a while
 
continental004
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Re: AF launching PTP-YUL/JFK

Thu Aug 05, 2021 6:44 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
One might ask how many Euro French travel to Guadalupe, and how many Americans? This will just route some people after their visit to NYC. Any Americans are just gravy.


I'm an American and I'm planning to travel to Guadeloupe in January on AA via MIA! Over a million French tourists visit Guadeloupe each year.

However, it should be noted that I lived in France for two years and have a B2 level of French.
 
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Chasensfo
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Re: AF launching PTP-YUL/JFK

Thu Aug 05, 2021 8:11 am

Cool! Awesome to see the return of Air France narrowbodies to North America. I wonder if routes to MIA will re-start in the future, it was cool when Air France 737-300s and Iberia DC-9-34s had the Caribbean networks out of there.

Speaking of, from the September 1998 OAG, this was the only one of the Air France Carribbean routes servicing MIA at the time and only 3 days per week. At one point, were there more flights with 737/A320s to MIA? Oddly enough, per the OAG, the Air France 737 started and ended the day in MIA yet the route was 3x weekly...doesn't make sense that it would sit in MIA when it had routes to run in PTP/FDF. Did the planes "cycle out" at MIA or something?

AF;3747;MIA;PAP;0850;0950;246;733
AF;3747;PAP;PTP;1045;1330;246;733
AF;3746;PTP;PAP;1530;1635;246;733
AF;3746;PAP;MIA;1720;2025;246;733

Iberia at the same time had a much more robust network from MIA, of course, with 3 DC-9s based there:

Image
Last edited by Chasensfo on Thu Aug 05, 2021 8:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Bricktop
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Re: AF launching PTP-YUL/JFK

Thu Aug 05, 2021 8:13 am

It will be very cool to spot AF A320s at JFK for sure.
 
AntonioMartin
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Re: AF launching PTP-YUL/JFK

Thu Aug 05, 2021 8:40 am

At some point I think Air France used to fly PTP-SJU, when I was about 8 years old....
 
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Aisak
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Re: AF launching PTP-YUL/JFK

Thu Aug 05, 2021 8:45 am

Chasensfo wrote:

Iberia at the same time had a much more robust network from MIA, of course, with 3 DC-9s based there:

Image


The only drawback is that IB operated with 5th freedom rights. The flights were tag-ons from the MAD-MIA. Schedule wise this was not ideal as those intra-America flights had to be coordinated with MIA-MAD departures and MAD-MIA arrivals. At the end of that CAM minihub, there were 2xA319 based in MIA for the operation. It ended sadly due to transit visas required after 9/11. Most destinations started non-stop flight to MAD instead.

AF on the other hand can fly unrestrictedly from several destinations ex-MIA as they are French territories. Some other might not be, but can be flown using 5th freedom rights tag-on with the CDG-MIA flights.
 
nicode
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Re: AF launching PTP-YUL/JFK

Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:32 am

Chasensfo wrote:
Speaking of, from the September 1998 OAG, this was the only one of the Air France Carribbean routes servicing MIA at the time and only 3 days per week. At one point, were there more flights with 737/A320s to MIA? Oddly enough, per the OAG, the Air France 737 started and ended the day in MIA yet the route was 3x weekly...doesn't make sense that it would sit in MIA when it had routes to run in PTP/FDF. Did the planes "cycle out" at MIA or something?

AF;3747;MIA;PAP;0850;0950;246;733
AF;3747;PAP;PTP;1045;1330;246;733
AF;3746;PTP;PAP;1530;1635;246;733
AF;3746;PAP;MIA;1720;2025;246;733


Maybe MIA-PAP-FDF and back ?
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: AF launching PTP-YUL/JFK

Thu Aug 05, 2021 10:56 am

Will AF have enough planes to operate the service, or would a third A320 be transferred from CDG to PTP for the winter?

Separately, I have to wonder if it could be possible for AF to launch a CDG-FSP flight, that continues on to PTP, to rotate planes between metropolitan and overseas France.
Last edited by aemoreira1981 on Thu Aug 05, 2021 11:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Chasensfo
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Re: AF launching PTP-YUL/JFK

Thu Aug 05, 2021 10:59 am

nicode wrote:
Chasensfo wrote:
Speaking of, from the September 1998 OAG, this was the only one of the Air France Caribbean routes servicing MIA at the time and only 3 days per week. At one point, were there more flights with 737/A320s to MIA? Oddly enough, per the OAG, the Air France 737 started and ended the day in MIA yet the route was 3x weekly...doesn't make sense that it would sit in MIA when it had routes to run in PTP/FDF. Did the planes "cycle out" at MIA or something?

AF;3747;MIA;PAP;0850;0950;246;733
AF;3747;PAP;PTP;1045;1330;246;733
AF;3746;PTP;PAP;1530;1635;246;733
AF;3746;PAP;MIA;1720;2025;246;733


Maybe MIA-PAP-FDF and back ?

Out of the whole Air France September 1998 schedule, those are the only routes from MIA other than the daily 747-100/200 from CDG...so the schedule suggests a 737 was sitting in MIA. I wonder if they rotated them out there for some kind of maintenance? No MIA-PAP-FDF listed, all other Air France PTP/FDF flights don't touch MIA in the schedule. Very bizarre...
 
ContinentalEWR
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Re: AF launching PTP-YUL/JFK

Thu Aug 05, 2021 11:33 am

LAX772LR wrote:
stl07 wrote:
I always found AF's ATL/MIA-French Caribbean routes to be interesting since they are in DL's turf

But it's really not. These aren't about business traffic or American beach-goers; these are (and for decades have been) targeted almost exclusively at Francophonic VFR traffic.

DL's got no hand in that; fairly certain that they don't even codeshare on these services.



adamblang wrote:
To be honest, I'm surprised the YUL-PTP service didn't already exist.

Same!


This is a route targeting French citizens in the NY area and a way to provide a solution to travel for those not able to go to France with ease and perhaps reunite with family, or as French citizens, have a destination a tiny bit closer to NY. These are not destinations Americans typically go to.
 
nicode
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Re: AF launching PTP-YUL/JFK

Thu Aug 05, 2021 12:43 pm

Chasensfo wrote:
Very bizarre...

Maybe via SDQ ?


aemoreira1981 wrote:
Will AF have enough planes to operate the service, or would a third A320 be transferred from CDG to PTP for the winter?

There are 2 A320 in Antilles.
Probably one doing MIA-PAP-PTP-FDF-CAY routing (and v/v) and the other one PTP-YUL/JFK 3x weekly for both.
 
Brickell305
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Re: AF launching PTP-YUL/JFK

Thu Aug 05, 2021 12:58 pm

ContinentalEWR wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
stl07 wrote:
I always found AF's ATL/MIA-French Caribbean routes to be interesting since they are in DL's turf

But it's really not. These aren't about business traffic or American beach-goers; these are (and for decades have been) targeted almost exclusively at Francophonic VFR traffic.

DL's got no hand in that; fairly certain that they don't even codeshare on these services.



adamblang wrote:
To be honest, I'm surprised the YUL-PTP service didn't already exist.

Same!


This is a route targeting French citizens in the NY area and a way to provide a solution to travel for those not able to go to France with ease and perhaps reunite with family, or as French citizens, have a destination a tiny bit closer to NY. These are not destinations Americans typically go to.

No, it's not. NYC-PTP is a tourist route. While it is true that PTP (and I'll include FDF as well) don't get many American tourists, they definitely do draw a niche crowd and NYC is the prime source market for that. DY knew that when they flew the route and B6 realized that as well when they decided to launch.

The French citizens thing makes absolutely zero sense as they would have no reason to fly to PTP first to then go to mainland France as PTP (while not a member of Schengen) maintains the same border restrictions, quarantine requirements, etc. that mainland France does. If you are a French citizen, who wishes to visit family, you may as well just fly directly to mainland France.
Last edited by Brickell305 on Thu Aug 05, 2021 1:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Brickell305
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Re: AF launching PTP-YUL/JFK

Thu Aug 05, 2021 1:07 pm

Aisak wrote:
Chasensfo wrote:

Iberia at the same time had a much more robust network from MIA, of course, with 3 DC-9s based there:

Image


The only drawback is that IB operated with 5th freedom rights. The flights were tag-ons from the MAD-MIA. Schedule wise this was not ideal as those intra-America flights had to be coordinated with MIA-MAD departures and MAD-MIA arrivals. At the end of that CAM minihub, there were 2xA319 based in MIA for the operation. It ended sadly due to transit visas required after 9/11. Most destinations started non-stop flight to MAD instead.

AF on the other hand can fly unrestrictedly from several destinations ex-MIA as they are French territories. Some other might not be, but can be flown using 5th freedom rights tag-on with the CDG-MIA flights.


The MIA-PAP-PTP-FDF-CAY flight does not connect to AF's CDG-MIA flight. The outbound from MIA leaves at 8:30 am before the CDG flight arrives in MIA and the inbound flight to MIA returns at 8:35pm after the return flight from MIA to CDG has already left. In fact, both PTP and FDF have more service to Paris than MIA does and as such there is no need for people to connect via MIA. For the PAP crowd, AF connects them to Paris via PTP, not MIA. The MIA- French Antilles flight exists primarily to serve the VFR French Caribbean market demand to/from MIA and between the territories.
 
Thenoflyzone
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Re: AF launching PTP-YUL/JFK

Thu Aug 05, 2021 1:09 pm

AF will be the 3rd carrier on PTP-YUL, since AC and TS both operate the route. Norwegian couldn’t hack it, but they had to establish a base in the Caribbean, which added to overall costs as well. AF already has that aspect covered, so they are better placed to try and make the route work. They also have brand recognition in Montreal.

nicode wrote:
There are 2 A320 in Antilles.
Probably one doing MIA-PAP-PTP-FDF-CAY routing (and v/v) and the other one PTP-YUL/JFK 3x weekly for both.


PTP-YUL/JFK and back shouldn’t take more than 11 hrs or so. You can easily do another turn with that frame in the late afternoon, especially a quick intra-Caribbean one.
Last edited by Thenoflyzone on Thu Aug 05, 2021 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Brickell305
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Re: AF launching PTP-YUL/JFK

Thu Aug 05, 2021 1:14 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
One might ask how many Euro French travel to Guadalupe, and how many Americans? This will just route some people after their visit to NYC. Any Americans are just gravy.

JFK is definitely aimed at getting American tourists. Again, while not there most popular destinations in the Caribbean for Americans, there has always been a niche market that's existed for both PTP and FDF. And this increased in recent years when the DY flights started. When those ended, PTP worked for B6 to begin flights so that the link could be maintained. PTP/FDF have been actively working to diversify and grow their tourism product.
 
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lesfalls
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Re: AF launching PTP-YUL/JFK

Thu Aug 05, 2021 1:19 pm

Times for JFK

PTP 16:00-JFK 20:00 36
JFK 08:30-JFK 13:55 47

Seems their fitting it in-between their current timed flights in the Caribbean

B6 is also flying the route 3x weekly with 320/321 aircraft. This means there's a market for 2 carriers with AF possibly aiming the service at the French diaspora in NY as many french living in New York would go to PTP previously with DY for family/secondary vacation homes with their family members coming from France (4 daily flights already from PAR every day).

Possibly the case also with the YUL service.

This must be the only intra North American service with access to an actual AF lounge at JFK's T1.
Last edited by lesfalls on Thu Aug 05, 2021 1:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
Thenoflyzone
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Re: AF launching PTP-YUL/JFK

Thu Aug 05, 2021 1:21 pm

Brickell305 wrote:
JFK is definitely aimed at getting American tourists.


And YUL for Canadian tourists. There is probably very little francophone VFR traffic on PTP-YUL, and even less so to JFK.
 
Brickell305
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Re: AF launching PTP-YUL/JFK

Thu Aug 05, 2021 1:23 pm

Thenoflyzone wrote:
Brickell305 wrote:
JFK is definitely aimed at getting American tourists.


And YUL for Canadian tourists. There is probably very little francophone VFR traffic on PTP-YUL, and even less so to JFK.


Exactly
 
ContinentalEWR
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Re: AF launching PTP-YUL/JFK

Thu Aug 05, 2021 2:11 pm

Brickell305 wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
But it's really not. These aren't about business traffic or American beach-goers; these are (and for decades have been) targeted almost exclusively at Francophonic VFR traffic.

DL's got no hand in that; fairly certain that they don't even codeshare on these services.




Same!


This is a route targeting French citizens in the NY area and a way to provide a solution to travel for those not able to go to France with ease and perhaps reunite with family, or as French citizens, have a destination a tiny bit closer to NY. These are not destinations Americans typically go to.

No, it's not. NYC-PTP is a tourist route. While it is true that PTP (and I'll include FDF as well) don't get many American tourists, they definitely do draw a niche crowd and NYC is the prime source market for that. DY knew that when they flew the route and B6 realized that as well when they decided to launch.

The French citizens thing makes absolutely zero sense as they would have no reason to fly to PTP first to then go to mainland France as PTP (while not a member of Schengen) maintains the same border restrictions, quarantine requirements, etc. that mainland France does. If you are a French citizen, who wishes to visit family, you may as well just fly directly to mainland France.


No, that's not what I am saying. Some French nationals in the US, and NY in particular, may opt to go to Guadeloupe in lieu of a trip to France, not fly JFK-PTP to get to Paris. If you're going to trash my comment, please at least read it, or don't comment with an idiotic post.

The DY prompted B6 yes, but the market is small and niche.
 
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Aisak
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Re: AF launching PTP-YUL/JFK

Thu Aug 05, 2021 2:26 pm

Brickell305 wrote:
Aisak wrote:
The only drawback is that IB operated with 5th freedom rights. The flights were tag-ons from the MAD-MIA. Schedule wise this was not ideal as those intra-America flights had to be coordinated with MIA-MAD departures and MAD-MIA arrivals. At the end of that CAM minihub, there were 2xA319 based in MIA for the operation. It ended sadly due to transit visas required after 9/11. Most destinations started non-stop flight to MAD instead.

AF on the other hand can fly unrestrictedly from several destinations ex-MIA as they are French territories. Some other might not be, but can be flown using 5th freedom rights tag-on with the CDG-MIA flights.


The MIA-PAP-PTP-FDF-CAY flight does not connect to AF's CDG-MIA flight. The outbound from MIA leaves at 8:30 am before the CDG flight arrives in MIA and the inbound flight to MIA returns at 8:35pm after the return flight from MIA to CDG has already left. In fact, both PTP and FDF have more service to Paris than MIA does and as such there is no need for people to connect via MIA. For the PAP crowd, AF connects them to Paris via PTP, not MIA. The MIA- French Antilles flight exists primarily to serve the VFR French Caribbean market demand to/from MIA and between the territories.


Yes. I think my post might have been misunderstood. AF does not have any kind of rights restictions to fly MIA-France early in the morning. Quite different to the IB operation as they had to wait for the main MAD-MIA flight to be able to fly a 5th freedom flight ex-MIA.

What I meant is that the MIA shorthaul operation could be easily expanded to other non-French territories ex-MIA via 5th freedom rights. Having full rights to run MIA-France in the morning increases aircraft use, something that IB could simply not achieve.
 
Brickell305
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Re: AF launching PTP-YUL/JFK

Thu Aug 05, 2021 2:34 pm

ContinentalEWR wrote:
Brickell305 wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:

This is a route targeting French citizens in the NY area and a way to provide a solution to travel for those not able to go to France with ease and perhaps reunite with family, or as French citizens, have a destination a tiny bit closer to NY. These are not destinations Americans typically go to.

No, it's not. NYC-PTP is a tourist route. While it is true that PTP (and I'll include FDF as well) don't get many American tourists, they definitely do draw a niche crowd and NYC is the prime source market for that. DY knew that when they flew the route and B6 realized that as well when they decided to launch.

The French citizens thing makes absolutely zero sense as they would have no reason to fly to PTP first to then go to mainland France as PTP (while not a member of Schengen) maintains the same border restrictions, quarantine requirements, etc. that mainland France does. If you are a French citizen, who wishes to visit family, you may as well just fly directly to mainland France.


No, that's not what I am saying. Some French nationals in the US, and NY in particular, may opt to go to Guadeloupe in lieu of a trip to France, not fly JFK-PTP to get to Paris. If you're going to trash my comment, please at least read it, or don't comment with an idiotic post.

The DY prompted B6 yes, but the market is small and niche.


And even with that clarification, it still doesn't make much sense.

1. The number of French citizens living in NYC isn't that big.
2. Entry to Guadeloupe is no less restricted than entry into mainland France. It's no easier to travel to PTP than it is to travel to mainland France. In fact, due to the limited number of flights to PTP, it's actually more difficult.
3. While a niche market, American tourism to the French Antilles very much does exist. They are very much marketing these services to Americans: https://www.guadeloupe-islands.com/
 
Toinou
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Re: AF launching PTP-YUL/JFK

Thu Aug 05, 2021 2:49 pm

Brickell305 wrote:
2. Entry to Guadeloupe is no less restricted than entry into mainland France. It's no easier to travel to PTP than it is to travel to mainland France. In fact, due to the limited number of flights to PTP, it's actually more difficult./

You are right to say that it's not easier (in the current situation or at any moment) to go from NYC (or Montreal) to French Caribbean. That being said, I still think that there is a market (not necessarily the main one) with French people traveling to see their relatives in PTP rather than going to mainland France. Some people may take the opportunity to shoot two birds with one stone : see the relatives and go to a sunny place.
 
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Chasensfo
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Re: AF launching PTP-YUL/JFK

Thu Aug 05, 2021 2:59 pm

nicode wrote:
Maybe via SDQ ?.

No, what I am saying is that the flight I listed is the ONLY 737 flight Air France listed in their September 1998 schedule serving MIA. No SDQ, FDF, etc. That's it. So according to the schedule, an Air France 737-300 sat in MIA for 5 days each week to operate a roundtrip to PAP and PTP 3 times per week LOL. I'm wondering why, and the only good reason I can think of is the work on the 737s based in North America was done in MIA and they may have filtered in and out of the system at PTP to go to/from MIA for a few days of work, but this is just a guess.
 
Brickell305
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Re: AF launching PTP-YUL/JFK

Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:06 pm

Toinou wrote:
Brickell305 wrote:
2. Entry to Guadeloupe is no less restricted than entry into mainland France. It's no easier to travel to PTP than it is to travel to mainland France. In fact, due to the limited number of flights to PTP, it's actually more difficult./

You are right to say that it's not easier (in the current situation or at any moment) to go from NYC (or Montreal) to French Caribbean. That being said, I still think that there is a market (not necessarily the main one) with French people traveling to see their relatives in PTP rather than going to mainland France. Some people may take the opportunity to shoot two birds with one stone : see the relatives and go to a sunny place.


Yeah, I'm sure there must be some French people living in NYC who can tell their family back in mainland France to meet them in PTP instead of them visiting them in mainland France but how big would that market really be? And also if you're talking about them having family that lives permanently in PTP, FDF, etc. that's also fairly unlikely. The average mainland French person does not have familial ties to people living in the French Caribbean. The reverse however is different where most French Caribbean natives do have family in mainland France.
 
Toinou
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Re: AF launching PTP-YUL/JFK

Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:14 pm

Brickell305 wrote:
Toinou wrote:
Brickell305 wrote:
2. Entry to Guadeloupe is no less restricted than entry into mainland France. It's no easier to travel to PTP than it is to travel to mainland France. In fact, due to the limited number of flights to PTP, it's actually more difficult./

You are right to say that it's not easier (in the current situation or at any moment) to go from NYC (or Montreal) to French Caribbean. That being said, I still think that there is a market (not necessarily the main one) with French people traveling to see their relatives in PTP rather than going to mainland France. Some people may take the opportunity to shoot two birds with one stone : see the relatives and go to a sunny place.


Yeah, I'm sure there must be some French people living in NYC who can tell their family back in mainland France to meet them in PTP instead of them visiting them in mainland France but how big would that market really be? And also if you're talking about them having family that lives permanently in PTP, FDF, etc. that's also fairly unlikely. The average mainland French person does not have familial ties to people living in the French Caribbean. The reverse however is different where most French Caribbean natives do have family in mainland France.

Just some complements to my idea. From what I found, French in NYC may be around 35'000 and about 3x that number around Montreal. That's not a small number.
Then, as you did understand, I talked about people from mainland France taking the occasion to go to the Caribbean, which are hugely popular with French holidaymakers. The question of having relatives there is not that impossible : French civil servants are transferred all around the country, and that includes to some extant oversea territories, so to probability that this happen is not negligible.
Once again, I will never tell this would be the main market for those flights but I guess that with the right marketing, like using French expats medias, it can add to the success.
 
F27500
Posts: 1058
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Re: AF launching PTP-YUL/JFK

Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:32 pm

Interesting to see .. kinda harks back to earlier days when you'd European carriers flying from North America to "their" places in the Caribbean. KLM used to fly JFK-CUR/AUA, BOAC/BA did JFK-BDA and Jamaica.
 
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robleroy121721
Posts: 33
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2012 10:59 pm

Re: AF launching PTP-YUL/JFK

Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:41 pm

AntonioMartin wrote:
At some point I think Air France used to fly PTP-SJU, when I was about 8 years old....

I miss those days :(
 
FGITD
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Re: AF launching PTP-YUL/JFK

Thu Aug 05, 2021 4:37 pm

For curiosity’s sake, what exactly would prevent AF from being able to fly pax from their South American stations, to North American stations, via the French Caribbean stops? Say GIG-JFK, stopping in FDF?

Probably wouldn’t make any money and given codeshares/JVs it wouldn’t make much sense, so just a question of theoretical feasibility.

Great to see the expansion though, it’s always fun to see a station served by only wide bodies…and an a320
 
EBiafore99
Posts: 155
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2018 7:03 pm

Re: AF launching PTP-YUL/JFK

Thu Aug 05, 2021 5:00 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
stl07 wrote:
I always found AF's ATL/MIA-French Caribbean routes to be interesting since they are in DL's turf

But it's really not. These aren't about business traffic or American beach-goers; these are (and for decades have been) targeted almost exclusively at Francophonic VFR traffic.

DL's got no hand in that; fairly certain that they don't even codeshare on these services.



adamblang wrote:
To be honest, I'm surprised the YUL-PTP service didn't already exist.

Same!


You are correct...they do not codeshare. I tried to book DTW-MIA-PTP / PTP-MIA-DTW both online and on the telephone recently. Neither DL nor AF could sell me one ticket on the route. I would have to buy two separate tickets.
 
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lesfalls
Posts: 3570
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Re: AF launching PTP-YUL/JFK

Thu Aug 05, 2021 5:23 pm

FGITD wrote:
For curiosity’s sake, what exactly would prevent AF from being able to fly pax from their South American stations, to North American stations, via the French Caribbean stops? Say GIG-JFK, stopping in FDF?

Probably wouldn’t make any money and given codeshares/JVs it wouldn’t make much sense, so just a question of theoretical feasibility.

Great to see the expansion though, it’s always fun to see a station served by only wide bodies…and an a320


If they can get the 5th freedom rights then yes. In the 70s AF flew JFK-GDL-PVR as a 5th freedom (in addition to JFK-PTP by AF so this is a "restatement of service").

This was in addition to AF's 5th freedom on MEX-HOU which operated for 30 years back in the day (Big competition to TI and PA back then).
 
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tjwgrr
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Re: AF launching PTP-YUL/JFK

Thu Aug 05, 2021 5:56 pm

Chasensfo wrote:
.....I wonder if routes to MIA will re-start in the future, it was cool when Air France 737-300s and Iberia DC-9-34s had the Caribbean networks out of there.


They already have:

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/AFR ... /TFFR/KMIA
 
Brickell305
Posts: 1489
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Re: AF launching PTP-YUL/JFK

Thu Aug 05, 2021 6:03 pm

FGITD wrote:
For curiosity’s sake, what exactly would prevent AF from being able to fly pax from their South American stations, to North American stations, via the French Caribbean stops? Say GIG-JFK, stopping in FDF?

Probably wouldn’t make any money and given codeshares/JVs it wouldn’t make much sense, so just a question of theoretical feasibility.

Great to see the expansion though, it’s always fun to see a station served by only wide bodies…and an a320

Nothing would stop them other than financial viability and logistics. PTP, FDF and CAY are all part of France. The only difference between them and mainland France in terms or entry/transit is that they are not in the Schengen Zone.
 
ContinentalEWR
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Re: AF launching PTP-YUL/JFK

Thu Aug 05, 2021 6:04 pm

Brickell305 wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:
Brickell305 wrote:
No, it's not. NYC-PTP is a tourist route. While it is true that PTP (and I'll include FDF as well) don't get many American tourists, they definitely do draw a niche crowd and NYC is the prime source market for that. DY knew that when they flew the route and B6 realized that as well when they decided to launch.

The French citizens thing makes absolutely zero sense as they would have no reason to fly to PTP first to then go to mainland France as PTP (while not a member of Schengen) maintains the same border restrictions, quarantine requirements, etc. that mainland France does. If you are a French citizen, who wishes to visit family, you may as well just fly directly to mainland France.


No, that's not what I am saying. Some French nationals in the US, and NY in particular, may opt to go to Guadeloupe in lieu of a trip to France, not fly JFK-PTP to get to Paris. If you're going to trash my comment, please at least read it, or don't comment with an idiotic post.

The DY prompted B6 yes, but the market is small and niche.


And even with that clarification, it still doesn't make much sense.

1. The number of French citizens living in NYC isn't that big.
2. Entry to Guadeloupe is no less restricted than entry into mainland France. It's no easier to travel to PTP than it is to travel to mainland France. In fact, due to the limited number of flights to PTP, it's actually more difficult.
3. While a niche market, American tourism to the French Antilles very much does exist. They are very much marketing these services to Americans: https://www.guadeloupe-islands.com/


You have no idea what you are talking about. French nationals living in the NY area is a significant number and these flights are principally targeted at them, not the the average American heading to the Caribbean. Sure, Guadeloupe and Martinique are destinations for Americans, but the market is not that large and a lot of it is VFR driven. AF is increasing the utilization of some 320s where it can.
 
ContinentalEWR
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Re: AF launching PTP-YUL/JFK

Thu Aug 05, 2021 6:04 pm

Toinou wrote:
Brickell305 wrote:
Toinou wrote:
You are right to say that it's not easier (in the current situation or at any moment) to go from NYC (or Montreal) to French Caribbean. That being said, I still think that there is a market (not necessarily the main one) with French people traveling to see their relatives in PTP rather than going to mainland France. Some people may take the opportunity to shoot two birds with one stone : see the relatives and go to a sunny place.


Yeah, I'm sure there must be some French people living in NYC who can tell their family back in mainland France to meet them in PTP instead of them visiting them in mainland France but how big would that market really be? And also if you're talking about them having family that lives permanently in PTP, FDF, etc. that's also fairly unlikely. The average mainland French person does not have familial ties to people living in the French Caribbean. The reverse however is different where most French Caribbean natives do have family in mainland France.

Just some complements to my idea. From what I found, French in NYC may be around 35'000 and about 3x that number around Montreal. That's not a small number.
Then, as you did understand, I talked about people from mainland France taking the occasion to go to the Caribbean, which are hugely popular with French holidaymakers. The question of having relatives there is not that impossible : French civil servants are transferred all around the country, and that includes to some extant oversea territories, so to probability that this happen is not negligible.
Once again, I will never tell this would be the main market for those flights but I guess that with the right marketing, like using French expats medias, it can add to the success.


Well said.
 
Brickell305
Posts: 1489
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:07 pm

Re: AF launching PTP-YUL/JFK

Thu Aug 05, 2021 6:10 pm

ContinentalEWR wrote:
Toinou wrote:
Brickell305 wrote:

Yeah, I'm sure there must be some French people living in NYC who can tell their family back in mainland France to meet them in PTP instead of them visiting them in mainland France but how big would that market really be? And also if you're talking about them having family that lives permanently in PTP, FDF, etc. that's also fairly unlikely. The average mainland French person does not have familial ties to people living in the French Caribbean. The reverse however is different where most French Caribbean natives do have family in mainland France.

Just some complements to my idea. From what I found, French in NYC may be around 35'000 and about 3x that number around Montreal. That's not a small number.
Then, as you did understand, I talked about people from mainland France taking the occasion to go to the Caribbean, which are hugely popular with French holidaymakers. The question of having relatives there is not that impossible : French civil servants are transferred all around the country, and that includes to some extant oversea territories, so to probability that this happen is not negligible.
Once again, I will never tell this would be the main market for those flights but I guess that with the right marketing, like using French expats medias, it can add to the success.


Well said.

He is disagreeing with you. He is saying that French nationals are NOT the main market for that flight but that French nationals on the route do exist to some extent. Which I do agree with.

You have no idea what you are talking about. No one is flying JFK-PTP to get mainland French people in NYC to PTP. It is very much a tourist route geared towards Americans with some limited French Caribbean diaspora VFR.
 
AntonioMartin
Posts: 914
Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:58 am

Re: AF launching PTP-YUL/JFK

Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:27 pm

robleroy121721 wrote:
AntonioMartin wrote:
At some point I think Air France used to fly PTP-SJU, when I was about 8 years old....

I miss those days :(


Me 2, me 2!
 
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JetAwayDrew
Posts: 26
Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:58 pm

Re: AF launching PTP-YUL/JFK

Thu Aug 05, 2021 11:07 pm

This is kind of off topic, but I’ve got two questions. One, how are these flights typically staffed? I’m assuming the crews fly something like CDG-JFK-PTP-JFK-CDG. Second, does AF serve meals in both cabins on these flights? Thanks. :)
 
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AirAfreak
Posts: 1018
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2012 4:20 am

Re: AF launching PTP-YUL/JFK

Fri Aug 06, 2021 5:39 am

JetAwayDrew wrote:
This is kind of off topic, but I’ve got two questions. One, how are these flights typically staffed? I’m assuming the crews fly something like CDG-JFK-PTP-JFK-CDG. Second, does AF serve meals in both cabins on these flights? Thanks. :)


There is an Air France flight attendant base at PTP/Guadeloupe which is staffed (mostly) on behalf of the Paris-based crews; relocating to Pointe-á-Pître on a temporary basis to operate these A320 regional services for a three month period.

There is also a group of Air France flight attendants based at the Pape’ete flight attendant base for the sole purpose to operate the Pape’ete - Los Angeles - Pape’ete services.

Occasionally, one might note the presence of a Pape’ete-based flight attendant onboard your late-evening continuation flight between Los Angeles - Paris & v.v. among the CDG-based flight attendants ((onboard the 3x/weekly (4x/weekly peak season) evening departures from Pape’ete to Paris (via Los Angeles)). They fulfill all safety and passenger service duties just like any other AF Paris-based crew operating these sectors, but their role has the added layer of (Tahitian) “speaker/in-flight interpreter” (L.O.D./Language of Destination) onboard these flights. Moreover, Paris-based flight attendant crews are NEVER rostered onto these Los Angeles - Pape’ete & v.v. sectors, however, the Pilot Crew can enjoy the privilege.
 
Toinou
Posts: 352
Joined: Sun Apr 14, 2019 8:21 am

Re: AF launching PTP-YUL/JFK

Fri Aug 06, 2021 5:41 am

lesfalls wrote:
FGITD wrote:
For curiosity’s sake, what exactly would prevent AF from being able to fly pax from their South American stations, to North American stations, via the French Caribbean stops? Say GIG-JFK, stopping in FDF?

Probably wouldn’t make any money and given codeshares/JVs it wouldn’t make much sense, so just a question of theoretical feasibility.

Great to see the expansion though, it’s always fun to see a station served by only wide bodies…and an a320


If they can get the 5th freedom rights then yes. In the 70s AF flew JFK-GDL-PVR as a 5th freedom (in addition to JFK-PTP by AF so this is a "restatement of service").

Isn't that 6th freedom? In which case I guess there are fewer limitations, which could be avoided by simply changing the flight number while in FDF I suppose.
 
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AirAfreak
Posts: 1018
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2012 4:20 am

Re: AF launching PTP-YUL/JFK

Fri Aug 06, 2021 6:26 am

JetAwayDrew wrote:
This is kind of off topic, but I’ve got two questions. One, how are these flights typically staffed? I’m assuming the crews fly something like CDG-JFK-PTP-JFK-CDG. Second, does AF serve meals in both cabins on these flights? Thanks. :)


There is an Air France flight attendant base at PTP/Guadeloupe which is staffed (mostly) on behalf of the Paris-based crews; relocating to Pointe-á-Pître on a temporary basis to operate these A320 regional services for a three month period.

There is also a group of Air France flight attendants based at the Pape’ete flight attendant base for the sole purpose to operate the Pape’ete - Los Angeles - Pape’ete services.

Occasionally, one might note the presence of a Pape’ete-based flight attendant onboard your late-evening continuation flight between Los Angeles - Paris & v.v. among the CDG-based flight attendants ((onboard the 3x/weekly (4x/weekly peak season) evening departures from Pape’ete to Paris (via Los Angeles)). They fulfill all safety and passenger service duties just like any other AF Paris-based crew operating these sectors, but their role has the added layer of (Tahitian) “speaker/in-flight interpreter” (L.O.D./Language of Destination) onboard these flights. Moreover, Paris-based flight attendant crews are NEVER rostered onto these Los Angeles - Pape’ete & v.v. sectors, however, the Pilot Crew can enjoy the privilege.

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