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kanban
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Re: Updated: Airbus goes legal as Qatar Airways jet row escalates

Fri Dec 17, 2021 12:18 am

I think part of the issue is how big is the problem and how big is the repair.

WE've seen the pictures from 1 airplane, but nothing concretely locating where on the plane the damage occurs. Is it the same on all 21 aircraft, what and where is it on the other affected airlines. Likewise it doesn't appear anyone has done an ultra sound to see the damage radius beyond the worst places. Airbus needs to check the entire mesh adhesion over the entire airplane and be transparent with the results. Years ago when Boeing was starting into composites, there was a problem of water migration into the honey comb.. As I recall when they did some testing the interior damage was several times the area of the visible damage.

If the mesh has separated from the substructure it should be replaced. A comment alluded to adhesion didn't matter if the total field remained intact. I guess they figure air flow buffeting will only compress the plies together and the danger of turbulence getting into and under the mesh layers insignificant. How long does a little flapping take to remove the entire layer? A question I have are the build up processes and materials the same for all the panels? or are the affected panels only from one supplier?

Earlier there was a comment that challenged my put that the airlines are not equipped to handle repairs of this scale.. my thought is if the nneed to strip the panels down and remove the mesh them begin relaying the mesh in a medium that needs autoclaving, you're out of most airlines maintenance capability. Yes if it were part of one panel per plane they could do it, but what if we're talking 10 or more panels per plane on an immediate basis?
 
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flee
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Re: Updated: Airbus goes legal as Qatar Airways jet row escalates

Fri Dec 17, 2021 3:26 am

ElroyJetson wrote:
Nobody is outright lying, everyone is telling partial truths in an attempt to win the public relations battle and either extract money from the other party, or prevent the bleeding of money. It will be fascinating to see how it all turns out.

We will now see how well the lawyers did their jobs when Airbus and Qatar signed the sales and purchase agreements!
 
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par13del
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Re: Updated: Airbus goes legal as Qatar Airways jet row escalates

Fri Dec 17, 2021 4:16 am

What I think we are missing are the financial experts, we have the technical experts speculating on various aspects of repair and or damage, what we need now are the financial experts to run the numbers on the new leases, the financial burden of paying for a/c not in use - based on the last year of the pandemic this may be easy -, the cost of bringing back stored a/c and how much the lost capacity is costing. If we have estimated numbers on those it might give us an idea of what QR thinks are the financial implications of repairing an aspect of the a/c that they may only have thought needed repairing after an actual lighting strike. We speculate this may be a gable on QR's part for money, it would be good to get an idea of the sums involved, are we talking millions over the lifetime of the a/c or the lease period?
 
sxf24
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Re: Updated: Airbus goes legal as Qatar Airways jet row escalates

Fri Dec 17, 2021 4:35 am

par13del wrote:
What I think we are missing are the financial experts, we have the technical experts speculating on various aspects of repair and or damage, what we need now are the financial experts to run the numbers on the new leases, the financial burden of paying for a/c not in use - based on the last year of the pandemic this may be easy -, the cost of bringing back stored a/c and how much the lost capacity is costing. If we have estimated numbers on those it might give us an idea of what QR thinks are the financial implications of repairing an aspect of the a/c that they may only have thought needed repairing after an actual lighting strike. We speculate this may be a gable on QR's part for money, it would be good to get an idea of the sums involved, are we talking millions over the lifetime of the a/c or the lease period?


The lease rate for an A350-900 is about $1 million per month. If an airplane is in short term storage, you’re paying more to maintain, but it doesn’t cost much to reactivate. It’s the opposite in long term storage with minimal monthly costs and quite a bit to reactivate depending on the maintenance required. Bringing in CX 777-300ER requires an upfront investment that will vary based on the amount of reconfiguration and maintenance performed, with a monthly lease rate about 50-60% of a new A350.
 
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par13del
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Re: Updated: Airbus goes legal as Qatar Airways jet row escalates

Fri Dec 17, 2021 5:38 am

I know it is not as simple as saying 21 million per month, as some a/c were in-house for a number of years, so split the difference and say 10 million across the 21 grounded a/c. On the a/c that were formerly leased to CX - as per Zeke correction - I think upthread it was 3 a/c let's ball park a million per month for all 3, so in rough numbers we are up to 11 million per month, I assume none of the numbers you mention include crew cost.
So based on the length of time the initial a/c were grounded, if we use my numbers which are WAG's we could be talking about in excess of 50 million already sunk or being lost by QR, that is a small amount of money when talking about purchase price, but maintenance and not using the a/c means the other side of the ledger where funds are being received as revenue is missing.
Thanks for the response, like I said, my numbers are WAG's but the financial side is now my line of thought, whatever we think of QR, rejecting a/c delivery where you do not pay until you are satisfied is one thing, accepting delivery then grounding over a dozen a/c while still paying for them is no small financial feat, especially if as some speculate, to prove a point. It must be some big financial point.
 
Boof02671
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Re: Updated: Airbus goes legal as Qatar Airways jet row escalates

Fri Dec 17, 2021 6:36 am

WayexTDI wrote:
Revelation wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
I'll ask for the umpteenth time (since no one has yet to respond): on what actual basis are those aircraft grounded? Does anyone has the actual text from the Qatari CAA?

Suppose the planes were actually grounded due to unpaid registration fees, would you expect Qatari CAA to post that to their web site? Point being you are making a presumption that they have to publish why they are doing what they are doing, which they probably don't. Of course it'd be helpful to know, but that's different than suggesting they must say.

When a CAA is ordering an airline to ground airplanes due to airworthiness questions, then yes, said CAA is expected to publish it for full transparency.
Given the turn this story is taking, it would be for the full benefit of the Qatari CAA and Qatar Airways to publish said order; if you keep it under wraps, and knowing Qatar Airways blaming history, it's easy to consider this as being suspicious.


Are they?

You don’t know. And it’s probably the lawyers handling it
 
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SQ22
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Re: Updated: Airbus goes legal as Qatar Airways jet row escalates

Fri Dec 17, 2021 5:09 pm

There is a lot of speculation in this thread with arguments which heve been discussed before being rehashed and rehashed all over again. If it continues like this the thread will either be locked or moved into Travel, Polls & Preferences.

The other option is your are discussing the still developing story as you did in the past without your preferences and the thread will remain here as it is. Of course I fully understand when learning more about the issues and the ongoing developments there can be a reason to discuss certain aspects which have been discussed before.

So here is your warning.
 
Opus99
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Re: Updated: Airbus goes legal as Qatar Airways jet row escalates

Mon Dec 20, 2021 5:30 pm

https://twitter.com/airinsight/status/1 ... 37767?s=21

Qatar airways issues Legal proceedings against airbus at high court in London
 
StTim
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Re: Updated: Airbus goes legal as Qatar Airways jet row escalates

Mon Dec 20, 2021 5:43 pm

Neither side seems willing to blink. The lawyers will love this.
 
Opus99
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Re: Updated: Airbus goes legal as Qatar Airways jet row escalates

Mon Dec 20, 2021 5:51 pm

Has something like this happened before?
 
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ElroyJetson
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Re: Updated: Airbus goes legal as Qatar Airways jet row escalates

Mon Dec 20, 2021 5:55 pm

The story is now being reported by Reuters as well. Basically, the same information as the tweet.
 
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zeke
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Re: Updated: Airbus goes legal as Qatar Airways jet row escalates

Mon Dec 20, 2021 5:55 pm

So they have basically admitted that they have had offers to fix this issue however they refuse to allow the repairs because they want to know the root cause. This is known as hinderance, like locking a builder out of a building site to make rectifications.

Off the top of my head I cannot think of a precedent which would require the manufacturer to provide the root cause before allowing a repair to be made. Not language I have seen in a contract before, contracts talk about effecting repairs and warranties.

Generally speaking buying a product does not give the purchaser access to the intellectual property that was used to design, construct, and certify a product. Anyone who has bought a car would be familiar with that.
 
Opus99
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Re: Updated: Airbus goes legal as Qatar Airways jet row escalates

Mon Dec 20, 2021 5:58 pm

zeke wrote:
So they have basically admitted that they have had offers to fix this issue however they refuse to allow the repairs because they want to know the root cause. This is known as hinderance, like locking a builder out of a building site to make rectifications.

Off the top of my head I cannot think of a precedent which would require the manufacturer to provide the root cause before allowing a repair to be made. Not language I have seen in a contract before, contracts talk about effecting repairs and warranties.

Generally speaking buying a product does not give the purchaser access to the intellectual property that was used to design, construct, and certify a product. Anyone who has bought a car would be familiar with that.

No. They’re saying the fix proposed does not stop the problem from happening again and if does then prove it. If you have the root cause why won’t you share it and show that it won’t come up again.
 
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ElroyJetson
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Re: Updated: Airbus goes legal as Qatar Airways jet row escalates

Mon Dec 20, 2021 5:59 pm

This is why both sides have lawyers.....
 
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Polot
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Re: Updated: Airbus goes legal as Qatar Airways jet row escalates

Mon Dec 20, 2021 5:59 pm

zeke wrote:
So they have basically admitted that they have had offers to fix this issue however they refuse to allow the repairs because they want to know the root cause. This is known as hinderance, like locking a builder out of a building site to make rectifications.

Off the top of my head I cannot think of a precedent which would require the manufacturer to provide the root cause before allowing a repair to be made. Not language I have seen in a contract before, contracts talk about effecting repairs and warranties.

Generally speaking buying a product does not give the purchaser access to the intellectual property that was used to design, construct, and certify a product. Anyone who has bought a car would be familiar with that.

It’s not hinderance because QR never agreed to a specific repair (and Airbus doesn’t own the planes so can’t make a repair without QR’s permission/blessing).
 
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ElroyJetson
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Re: Updated: Airbus goes legal as Qatar Airways jet row escalates

Mon Dec 20, 2021 6:05 pm

I would imagine what QR is hoping gets litigated is "the root cause" of the problem. If the root cause is identified then by definition must come the remedy. The Court will decide what the appropriate remedy is and of course who pays.

Should be fascinating.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Updated: Airbus goes legal as Qatar Airways jet row escalates

Mon Dec 20, 2021 6:19 pm

ElroyJetson wrote:
I would imagine what QR is hoping gets litigated is "the root cause" of the problem. If the root cause is identified then by definition must come the remedy. The Court will decide what the appropriate remedy is and of course who pays.

Should be fascinating.

It's pretty interesting to see that QR is taking the first step into the court room, whereas earlier in this thread we had lots of push back that it was Airbus that was using the threat of legal proceedings to get QR to reel in its public statements.

Now we have the "hindrance" defense being posited, which seems strange since that didn't hinder the filing of the court case against Airbus.

Overall, being sued by a major customer is a bad look for Airbus, IMO.

Reuters: Qatar Airways takes Airbus to court over A350 skin flaws says:

Monday's statement was the first formal response after Airbus last week accused one of its largest customers of misrepresenting the problem as a safety issue and threatened to call for an independent legal assessment.

Seems we've now gone well past that call for an independent legal assessment.

Whomever at Airbus who thought that thread was a good idea may be in a bit of a pickle right now.
 
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zeke
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Re: Updated: Airbus goes legal as Qatar Airways jet row escalates

Mon Dec 20, 2021 6:25 pm

Opus99 wrote:
No. They’re saying the fix proposed does not stop the problem from happening again and if does then prove it. If you have the root cause why won’t you share it and show that it won’t come up again.


The same airline had an aircraft recently that had a lateral excursion from the runway taking out some runways lights and some minor damage to the aircraft. Did they wait to find out the root cause before repairing the aircraft, or did they just repair the aircraft in accordance with the manufacturers instructions and return it to service ?

All aircraft surfaces degrade over time, that is why there are tasks in the AMM to repair them. Why do you need to repaint your house from time to time ?

Polot wrote:
It’s not hinderance because QR never agreed to a specific repair (and Airbus doesn’t own the planes so can’t make a repair without QR’s permission/blessing).


Just to be clear QR don’t own a number of the aircraft they grounded either, they are leased. Contracts don’t include language that the end user has to agree to the repair (eg operators don’t have a choice when it comes to ADs etc or manufacturers instructions), they are not the TCDS holder, they have no authority over the type design. They are free to have a repair designed by their own part 21 organisation, they don’t need to have the manufacturers permission to do that. Their own part 21 organisation would not need to know the root cause to develop a repair. Historical performance does not predict future outcomes.

This is not about fixing the aircraft, they have essentially admitted that they have offers to fix it.
 
FluidFlow
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Re: Updated: Airbus goes legal as Qatar Airways jet row escalates

Mon Dec 20, 2021 6:27 pm

Maybe we will finally see the CAA document that is used to actually ground the aircraft. They will have to present this as evidence that the grounding was necessary and also what analysis was done to determine that it is a flight safety concern.
 
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ElroyJetson
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Re: Updated: Airbus goes legal as Qatar Airways jet row escalates

Mon Dec 20, 2021 6:29 pm

Revelation wrote:
ElroyJetson wrote:
I would imagine what QR is hoping gets litigated is "the root cause" of the problem. If the root cause is identified then by definition must come the remedy. The Court will decide what the appropriate remedy is and of course who pays.

Should be fascinating.

It's pretty interesting to see that QR is taking the first step into the court room, whereas earlier in this thread we had lots of push back that it was Airbus that was using the threat of legal proceedings to get QR to reel in its public statements.

Now we have the "hindrance" defense being posited, which seems strange since that didn't hinder the filing of the court case against Airbus.

Overall, being sued by a major customer is a bad look for Airbus, IMO.

Reuters: Qatar Airways takes Airbus to court over A350 skin flaws says:

Monday's statement was the first formal response after Airbus last week accused one of its largest customers of misrepresenting the problem as a safety issue and threatened to call for an independent legal assessment.

Seems we've now gone well past that call for an independent legal assessment.

Whomever at Airbus who thought that thread was a good idea may be in a bit of a pickle right now.



The phrase "root cause" keeps being mentioned by QR which gives me an idea about possible legal strategy. But since it is speculation I'll keep those thoughts to myself. :)
 
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zeke
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Re: Updated: Airbus goes legal as Qatar Airways jet row escalates

Mon Dec 20, 2021 6:32 pm

Revelation wrote:
Seems we've now gone well past that call for an independent legal assessment.


That court is the same sort of venue as ILA, the case may not even go before a judge, it might be dealt by a recorder. In any case a large part of that court is doing arbitration, and by a single member which is a similar process to the ILA. The difference with ILA or this court and full arbitration is the number of people hearing it.

The fees for this court are lower than ILA or full arbitration.
 
marcelh
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Re: Updated: Airbus goes legal as Qatar Airways jet row escalates

Mon Dec 20, 2021 6:37 pm

Opus99 wrote:
https://twitter.com/airinsight/status/1472981731477237767?s=21

Qatar airways issues Legal proceedings against airbus at high court in London

Is there a specific reason why they picked London?
 
RalXWB
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Re: Updated: Airbus goes legal as Qatar Airways jet row escalates

Mon Dec 20, 2021 6:38 pm

Considering the latest orders Airbus can handle the bad look it gets by this Airline IMO.
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Updated: Airbus goes legal as Qatar Airways jet row escalates

Mon Dec 20, 2021 6:43 pm

marcelh wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
https://twitter.com/airinsight/status/1472981731477237767?s=21

Qatar airways issues Legal proceedings against airbus at high court in London

Is there a specific reason why they picked London?


I would guess that a specific legal jurisdiction is noted in the contract for any disputes, that's normally the case in the contacts I deal with,

Fred
 
sxf24
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Re: Updated: Airbus goes legal as Qatar Airways jet row escalates

Mon Dec 20, 2021 6:46 pm

zeke wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
No. They’re saying the fix proposed does not stop the problem from happening again and if does then prove it. If you have the root cause why won’t you share it and show that it won’t come up again.


The same airline had an aircraft recently that had a lateral excursion from the runway taking out some runways lights and some minor damage to the aircraft. Did they wait to find out the root cause before repairing the aircraft, or did they just repair the aircraft in accordance with the manufacturers instructions and return it to service ?

All aircraft surfaces degrade over time, that is why there are tasks in the AMM to repair them. Why do you need to repaint your house from time to time ?


In your example, you know why the minor damage occurred. That is generally a key question in determining what and how repairs take place.

It’s pretty clear QR does not believe there is a sufficient understanding of why there is a accelerated surface degradation condition. QR, and I suspect their regulator, are unwilling to perform or accept temporary repairs without understanding why the problem is happening in the first place and receiving assurances it will not reoccur. While they way in which the situation played out is unfortunate, I find it laughable to argue against the basic premise of what QR is asking for.

zeke wrote:
Polot wrote:
It’s not hinderance because QR never agreed to a specific repair (and Airbus doesn’t own the planes so can’t make a repair without QR’s permission/blessing).


Just to be clear QR don’t own a number of the aircraft they grounded either, they are leased. Contracts don’t include language that the end user has to agree to the repair (eg operators don’t have a choice when it comes to ADs etc or manufacturers instructions), they are not the TCDS holder, they have no authority over the type design. They are free to have a repair designed by their own part 21 organisation, they don’t need to have the manufacturers permission to do that. Their own part 21 organisation would not need to know the root cause to develop a repair. Historical performance does not predict future outcomes.

This is not about fixing the aircraft, they have essentially admitted that they have offers to fix it.


I’ve never seen an aircraft lease that does not obligate the operator to maintain a valid CofA for the aircraft. If the Qatari CAA is requiring the accelerated surface degradation be repaired to certain level as a condition for maintaining the valid CofA, a lessor can’t force their way in with another repair team (not to mention QR and QCAA effectively control badging and access).

While we don’t know the terms of the specific QR leases, I would imagine that QR remains in compliance with the lease as long as they keep paying.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Updated: Airbus goes legal as Qatar Airways jet row escalates

Mon Dec 20, 2021 6:48 pm

zeke wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
No. They’re saying the fix proposed does not stop the problem from happening again and if does then prove it. If you have the root cause why won’t you share it and show that it won’t come up again.

The same airline had an aircraft recently that had a lateral excursion from the runway taking out some runways lights and some minor damage to the aircraft. Did they wait to find out the root cause before repairing the aircraft, or did they just repair the aircraft in accordance with the manufacturers instructions and return it to service ?

This seems to me to be a classic example of "whataboutism", bringing up stuff with little bearing on the "accelerated surface degradation condition" we are discussing here. Fixing one aircraft after an unfortunate but well understood event is a different thing than fixing a problem that is not well understood and could potentially cause expensive and time consuming repairs for the full lifetime of every A350 in the world.

zeke wrote:
This is not about fixing the aircraft, they have essentially admitted that they have offers to fix it.

Maybe we should just go with what they said, instead of your interpretation of what they said?

We strongly believe that Airbus must undertake a thorough investigation of this condition to conclusively establish its full root cause. Without a proper understanding of the root cause of the condition, it is not possible for Qatar Airways to establish whether any proposed repair solution will rectify the underlying condition.

Ref: https://ajot.com/news/qatar-airways-iss ... -in-london

zeke wrote:
The fees for this court are lower than ILA or full arbitration.

Fine, yet IMO the significance is that QR took the step of filing the case before Airbus did, which shows the threats Airbus made earlier are now shown to be ineffective. Court fees are trivial compared to the potential cost of not resolving this issue before it impacts more aircraft, IMO.

marcelh wrote:
Is there a specific reason why they picked London?

It was written earlier that contract states that it is subject to the laws of England, so I presume that is the reason.
 
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Polot
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Re: Updated: Airbus goes legal as Qatar Airways jet row escalates

Mon Dec 20, 2021 7:05 pm

sxf24 wrote:

zeke wrote:
Polot wrote:
It’s not hinderance because QR never agreed to a specific repair (and Airbus doesn’t own the planes so can’t make a repair without QR’s permission/blessing).


Just to be clear QR don’t own a number of the aircraft they grounded either, they are leased. Contracts don’t include language that the end user has to agree to the repair (eg operators don’t have a choice when it comes to ADs etc or manufacturers instructions), they are not the TCDS holder, they have no authority over the type design. They are free to have a repair designed by their own part 21 organisation, they don’t need to have the manufacturers permission to do that. Their own part 21 organisation would not need to know the root cause to develop a repair. Historical performance does not predict future outcomes.

This is not about fixing the aircraft, they have essentially admitted that they have offers to fix it.


I’ve never seen an aircraft lease that does not obligate the operator to maintain a valid CofA for the aircraft. If the Qatari CAA is requiring the accelerated surface degradation be repaired to certain level as a condition for maintaining the valid CofA, a lessor can’t force their way in with another repair team (not to mention QR and QCAA effectively control badging and access).

While we don’t know the terms of the specific QR leases, I would imagine that QR remains in compliance with the lease as long as they keep paying.

As long as QR is actively working towards trying to get them air worthy they are likely in compliance (and this includes keeping a constant dialog in an effort to get issue rectified, not just blindly accepting whatever Airbus offers). Those clauses are more to make sure the operator doesn’t neglect or raid the aircraft for parts, it’s not really meant in situations like this where there is no clear approved permanent fix or indication that it is QR’s fault that they lost airworthiness.

And “Airbus has offered fixes!!!!” does not instantly defend Airbus in court. We don’t know who Airbus was making pay for these fixes, how long these fixes were expected to last and who would pay for any future necessary repairs, and any compensation Qatar may be due. Airlines have rights too, Airbus’s decisions are not the end all be all.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Updated: Airbus goes legal as Qatar Airways jet row escalates

Mon Dec 20, 2021 7:27 pm

FluidFlow wrote:
Maybe we will finally see the CAA document that is used to actually ground the aircraft. They will have to present this as evidence that the grounding was necessary and also what analysis was done to determine that it is a flight safety concern.

THANK YOU!!! I've only been saying this for weeks, but no one seem to want to admit it.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Updated: Airbus goes legal as Qatar Airways jet row escalates

Mon Dec 20, 2021 7:28 pm

Opus99 wrote:
https://twitter.com/airinsight/status/1472981731477237767?s=21

Qatar airways issues Legal proceedings against airbus at high court in London

Well, a customer suing a supplier after refusing repairs; that will go very well for QR's future contracts...
I'm sure Boeing is going to change the wordage on all pending QR offers...
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Updated: Airbus goes legal as Qatar Airways jet row escalates

Mon Dec 20, 2021 7:30 pm

Opus99 wrote:
zeke wrote:
So they have basically admitted that they have had offers to fix this issue however they refuse to allow the repairs because they want to know the root cause. This is known as hinderance, like locking a builder out of a building site to make rectifications.

Off the top of my head I cannot think of a precedent which would require the manufacturer to provide the root cause before allowing a repair to be made. Not language I have seen in a contract before, contracts talk about effecting repairs and warranties.

Generally speaking buying a product does not give the purchaser access to the intellectual property that was used to design, construct, and certify a product. Anyone who has bought a car would be familiar with that.

No. They’re saying the fix proposed does not stop the problem from happening again and if does then prove it. If you have the root cause why won’t you share it and show that it won’t come up again.

That shows that QR is not interested in fixing the planes to fly them now; they'd rather use older less efficient planes than the A350's.
That goes back to what zeke said: overall, it's cheaper for QR to reactivate older planes, and a way out (or at least an attempts) of the A350 lease payments.
 
Opus99
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Re: Updated: Airbus goes legal as Qatar Airways jet row escalates

Mon Dec 20, 2021 7:35 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
zeke wrote:
So they have basically admitted that they have had offers to fix this issue however they refuse to allow the repairs because they want to know the root cause. This is known as hinderance, like locking a builder out of a building site to make rectifications.

Off the top of my head I cannot think of a precedent which would require the manufacturer to provide the root cause before allowing a repair to be made. Not language I have seen in a contract before, contracts talk about effecting repairs and warranties.

Generally speaking buying a product does not give the purchaser access to the intellectual property that was used to design, construct, and certify a product. Anyone who has bought a car would be familiar with that.

No. They’re saying the fix proposed does not stop the problem from happening again and if does then prove it. If you have the root cause why won’t you share it and show that it won’t come up again.

That shows that QR is not interested in fixing the planes to fly them now; they'd rather use older less efficient planes than the A350's.
That goes back to what zeke said: overall, it's cheaper for QR to reactivate older planes, and a way out (or at least an attempts) of the A350 lease payments.

But they still have to pay the lease. WHILST the aircraft is still grounded. How much is the lease?

So I’m sorry but that doesn’t make any sense.

There are easier and probably cheaper ways of getting out of a lease.
 
LDRA
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Re: Updated: Airbus goes legal as Qatar Airways jet row escalates

Mon Dec 20, 2021 7:39 pm

Opus99 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
No. They’re saying the fix proposed does not stop the problem from happening again and if does then prove it. If you have the root cause why won’t you share it and show that it won’t come up again.

That shows that QR is not interested in fixing the planes to fly them now; they'd rather use older less efficient planes than the A350's.
That goes back to what zeke said: overall, it's cheaper for QR to reactivate older planes, and a way out (or at least an attempts) of the A350 lease payments.

But they still have to pay the lease. WHILST the aircraft is still grounded. How much is the lease?

So I’m sorry but that doesn’t make any sense.

There are easier and probably cheaper ways of getting out of a lease.


Misjudged. QR thought Airbus would bulge. Not this time
 
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Polot
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Re: Updated: Airbus goes legal as Qatar Airways jet row escalates

Mon Dec 20, 2021 7:40 pm

LDRA wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
That shows that QR is not interested in fixing the planes to fly them now; they'd rather use older less efficient planes than the A350's.
That goes back to what zeke said: overall, it's cheaper for QR to reactivate older planes, and a way out (or at least an attempts) of the A350 lease payments.

But they still have to pay the lease. WHILST the aircraft is still grounded. How much is the lease?

So I’m sorry but that doesn’t make any sense.

There are easier and probably cheaper ways of getting out of a lease.


Misjudged. QR thought Airbus would bulge. Not this time

That doesn’t make sense. At no point would Airbus’s (or any OEM’s) solution be to take over QR’s leases/financial obligations and take ownership of the aircraft from them.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Updated: Airbus goes legal as Qatar Airways jet row escalates

Mon Dec 20, 2021 7:41 pm

Opus99 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
No. They’re saying the fix proposed does not stop the problem from happening again and if does then prove it. If you have the root cause why won’t you share it and show that it won’t come up again.

That shows that QR is not interested in fixing the planes to fly them now; they'd rather use older less efficient planes than the A350's.
That goes back to what zeke said: overall, it's cheaper for QR to reactivate older planes, and a way out (or at least an attempts) of the A350 lease payments.

But they still have to pay the lease. WHILST the aircraft is still grounded. How much is the lease?

So I’m sorry but that doesn’t make any sense.

There are easier and probably cheaper ways of getting out of a lease.

They will fight the lease payment (or seek Airbus to pay for them) as the aircraft are deemed unfit to fly.

AAB thought he could win over Airbus; now he has to save face.
 
sxf24
Posts: 1786
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:22 pm

Re: Updated: Airbus goes legal as Qatar Airways jet row escalates

Mon Dec 20, 2021 7:46 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
That shows that QR is not interested in fixing the planes to fly them now; they'd rather use older less efficient planes than the A350's.
That goes back to what zeke said: overall, it's cheaper for QR to reactivate older planes, and a way out (or at least an attempts) of the A350 lease payments.

But they still have to pay the lease. WHILST the aircraft is still grounded. How much is the lease?

So I’m sorry but that doesn’t make any sense.

There are easier and probably cheaper ways of getting out of a lease.

They will fight the lease payment (or seek Airbus to pay for them) as the aircraft are deemed unfit to fly.

AAB thought he could win over Airbus; now he has to save face.


There’s no legal or contractual avenue for Airbus to assume or become responsible for lease payments. The only way out for QR is to have the aircraft become a total loss and have insurance payout, which is unlikely and inconsistent with the public comments about their objective. If Airbus and QR reached a settlement, they may be compensated for some of the lease payments while the airplanes were parked but that requires reaching a settlement.
 
Opus99
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Re: Updated: Airbus goes legal as Qatar Airways jet row escalates

Mon Dec 20, 2021 7:53 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
That shows that QR is not interested in fixing the planes to fly them now; they'd rather use older less efficient planes than the A350's.
That goes back to what zeke said: overall, it's cheaper for QR to reactivate older planes, and a way out (or at least an attempts) of the A350 lease payments.

But they still have to pay the lease. WHILST the aircraft is still grounded. How much is the lease?

So I’m sorry but that doesn’t make any sense.

There are easier and probably cheaper ways of getting out of a lease.

They will fight the lease payment (or seek Airbus to pay for them) as the aircraft are deemed unfit to fly.

AAB thought he could win over Airbus; now he has to save face.

Oh they will fight it? Just like that?

Please. How long will they stop paying it? Is it really cheaper to reactivate all those aircraft? Pay their lease?

Also might I add some of the ones grounded are owned by QR and have no lease financial or operating attached to them
 
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Revelation
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Re: Updated: Airbus goes legal as Qatar Airways jet row escalates

Mon Dec 20, 2021 8:01 pm

Opus99 wrote:
https://twitter.com/airinsight/status/1472981731477237767?s=21

Qatar airways issues Legal proceedings against airbus at high court in London

As earlier noted, I find word choices to be interesting.

In this context, it's interesting that what Airbus refers to as "surface degradation", QR refers to as "accelerated surface degradation".

+1 for QR's lawyers

WayexTDI wrote:
Well, a customer suing a supplier after refusing repairs; that will go very well for QR's future contracts...
I'm sure Boeing is going to change the wordage on all pending QR offers...

If anyone is reviewing their contracts right now, I bet it's FI, CX, LH, etc.

WayexTDI wrote:
They will fight the lease payment (or seek Airbus to pay for them) as the aircraft are deemed unfit to fly.

AAB thought he could win over Airbus; now he has to save face.

Airbus thought the threat of "independent legal analysis" would scare off QR.

It didn't, instead it emboldened them to go to court first, using the path that they found most favorable.

Now, Airbus is on the back foot and has to rethink their strategy.
 
JonesNL
Posts: 660
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Re: Updated: Airbus goes legal as Qatar Airways jet row escalates

Mon Dec 20, 2021 8:02 pm

Well well well, this should be interesting (grabs popcorn )
 
Noshow
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Re: Updated: Airbus goes legal as Qatar Airways jet row escalates

Mon Dec 20, 2021 8:21 pm

Maybe we have a CR929 launch customer?
 
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ElroyJetson
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Re: Updated: Airbus goes legal as Qatar Airways jet row escalates

Mon Dec 20, 2021 8:50 pm

The party which brings forth the litigation generally has the stronger case. The defendant is literally on the defensive. As an example, The US DOJ has roughly a 95% conviction rate. Most parties either Civilly or Criminally will not go to the expense of Court unless they have a strong inclination they will win.

Of course, that does not necessarily mean anything in this case. But QR must believe they have a strong case based on "root cause" which sounds like they believe the skin degradation problem is a manufacturing/process issue versus normal wear.

We shall see....
 
Flyglobal
Posts: 567
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2008 6:25 am

Re: Updated: Airbus goes legal as Qatar Airways jet row escalates

Mon Dec 20, 2021 8:55 pm

So somebody at Airbus has a very short Christmas.

This thread will be a very exiting one for the ones not involved.
 
accentra
Posts: 74
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2021 11:35 pm

Re: Updated: Airbus goes legal as Qatar Airways jet row escalates

Mon Dec 20, 2021 8:59 pm

It's always interesting to see the comments on this thread. Perhaps no other recent thread so encapsulates people's own, sometimes subliminal, A v B prejudices. My own take remains that the relationship between Airbus and AAB has been soured (read 'irretrievably broken') for some considerable time now - and that started long before this 'issue' conveniently presented itself to bring matters to a head. These latest developments should be viewed through that lens. I would posit that AAB has painted himself in to a corner with all this. His usual tactics have not worked and, to save face, this is the latest escalation (or final throw of the dice). Face will be saved, as legal judgements often allow both parties to claim victory! But I would be cautious of saying things like 'Airbus is on the back foot'. It could be equally argued that this could be the decisive play that could cement AAB's own lasting reputation as 'unreasonable', rather than 'demanding'. So not a good look for him, either!
 
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Revelation
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Re: Updated: Airbus goes legal as Qatar Airways jet row escalates

Mon Dec 20, 2021 9:07 pm

Flyglobal wrote:
So somebody at Airbus has a very short Christmas.

This thread will be a very exiting one for the ones not involved.

I don't think so. Like most these cases, chances are still high it gets settled out of court, with no public disclosure of the settlement, and both sides saying they are satisfied with the outcome.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Updated: Airbus goes legal as Qatar Airways jet row escalates

Mon Dec 20, 2021 9:26 pm

Opus99 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
But they still have to pay the lease. WHILST the aircraft is still grounded. How much is the lease?

So I’m sorry but that doesn’t make any sense.

There are easier and probably cheaper ways of getting out of a lease.

They will fight the lease payment (or seek Airbus to pay for them) as the aircraft are deemed unfit to fly.

AAB thought he could win over Airbus; now he has to save face.

Oh they will fight it? Just like that?

Please. How long will they stop paying it? Is it really cheaper to reactivate all those aircraft? Pay their lease?

Also might I add some of the ones grounded are owned by QR and have no lease financial or operating attached to them

According to QR, Airbus has delivered planes that are not fit for use; you think they won't seek financial compensations for the time they had to pay the lease and been unable to use the plane? Pleeeeease...
 
KingOrGod
Posts: 220
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Re: Updated: Airbus goes legal as Qatar Airways jet row escalates

Mon Dec 20, 2021 9:31 pm

Revelation wrote:
ElroyJetson wrote:
Overall, being sued by a major customer is a bad look for Airbus, IMO.
...
Seems we've now gone well past that call for an independent legal assessment.
...
Whomever at Airbus who thought that thread was a good idea may be in a bit of a pickle right now.


Dear Revelation,

Bad look? To who? To those that matter, I reckon the entire situation is clear as day. And when I say those that matter, I am referring to the other A350 operators and Airbus and even QR. I can guarantee you that LH et al would have no qualms grounding an aircraft from any manufacturer should they even remotely suspect a safety issue.

And for those who thought the "threat" to QR was a good idea, probably still do - and it would have likely originated from the legal team at Airbus, and I'd be inclined to agree with them. It was always destined for court, from what I have read and seen, AAB has made his mind up.

KoG
 
Opus99
Posts: 3174
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

Re: Updated: Airbus goes legal as Qatar Airways jet row escalates

Mon Dec 20, 2021 9:33 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
They will fight the lease payment (or seek Airbus to pay for them) as the aircraft are deemed unfit to fly.

AAB thought he could win over Airbus; now he has to save face.

Oh they will fight it? Just like that?

Please. How long will they stop paying it? Is it really cheaper to reactivate all those aircraft? Pay their lease?

Also might I add some of the ones grounded are owned by QR and have no lease financial or operating attached to them

According to QR, Airbus has delivered planes that are not fit for use; you think they won't seek financial compensations for the time they had to pay the lease and been unable to use the plane? Pleeeeease...

they will seek compensation from airbus. my question is, if some of the grounded aircraft don't have any lease attached to them, then what is the point?
 
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Revelation
Posts: 27445
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Updated: Airbus goes legal as Qatar Airways jet row escalates

Mon Dec 20, 2021 9:36 pm

KingOrGod wrote:
Dear Revelation,

Bad look? To who? To those that matter, I reckon the entire situation is clear as day. And when I say those that matter, I am referring to the other A350 operators and Airbus and even QR. I can guarantee you that LH et al would have no qualms grounding an aircraft from any manufacturer should they even remotely suspect a safety issue.

And for those who thought the "threat" to QR was a good idea, probably still do - and it would have likely originated from the legal team at Airbus, and I'd be inclined to agree with them. It was always destined for court, from what I have read and seen, AAB has made his mind up.

KoG

If you are inclined to speculate about what LH and other A350 operators are thinking, so shall I, and I will speculate they are glad QR is willing to hold Airbus's feet to the fire to come up with a long term solution to this problem rather than "accelerated" patching and painting for the rest of the A350's life cycle.
 
Canuck600
Posts: 385
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2017 5:24 pm

Re: Updated: Airbus goes legal as Qatar Airways jet row escalates

Mon Dec 20, 2021 9:44 pm

Off on a tangent, if it comes out that whatever reason/justification that regulator used to ground the aircraft is invalid would ICAO or any other organisation be able to sanction the regulator?

I'm also wondering if there is any way of finding out if there was any pressure on the Qatari regulator to issue the grounding by either the airline or the government?
 
sxf24
Posts: 1786
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:22 pm

Re: Updated: Airbus goes legal as Qatar Airways jet row escalates

Mon Dec 20, 2021 9:49 pm

Canuck600 wrote:
Off on a tangent, if it comes out that whatever reason/justification that regulator used to ground the aircraft is invalid would ICAO or any other organisation be able to sanction the regulator?

I'm also wondering if there is any way of finding out if there was any pressure on the Qatari regulator to issue the grounding by either the airline or the government?


Yes.

However, I think there’s a false assumption the aircraft are grounded in the sense that the QCAA is prohibiting operation, rather than waiting for completion of a repair. The former would run afoul of ICAO while the latter is normal and appropriate.
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 17190
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Updated: Airbus goes legal as Qatar Airways jet row escalates

Mon Dec 20, 2021 9:56 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
According to QR, Airbus has delivered planes that are not fit for use; you think they won't seek financial compensations for the time they had to pay the lease and been unable to use the plane? Pleeeeease...


Please cite a source for the “delivered planes that are not fit for use” or withdraw the comment.

The aircraft were operated for years, by saying they were “delivered planes that are not fit for use” means QR has been reckless and negligent for accepting the deliveries and flying them for years.

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