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Heinkel
Posts: 324
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2013 6:15 pm

Re: 18 Unruly Teenage Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Mon Aug 09, 2021 8:18 pm

smokeybandit wrote:
Designated meal time? So instead of people having masks off here and there throughout the flight, you have everyone with their masks off at the same time?

Sounds like brilliant science there.


Absolute ridiculous. Putting the mask on and off after every bite is plain stupid. Which sick brain has given this order?

This should not happen in civilised countries.

We learned here, that we have to drink a lot during flight not to get dehydrated. And now? Oberfeldwebel FA allows only one short time to drink during a flight????

Refusing a person to drink is torture.

The world has gone mad. Or are these rules only on American carriers? I don't think, that LH makes such a nonsense.
 
Dreamflight767
Posts: 535
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2008 10:43 pm

Re: 18 Unruly Teenage Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Mon Aug 09, 2021 8:20 pm

pjc747 wrote:
Is nobody going to point out how completely stupid it is that this rule exists?


Which rule?
 
petertenthije
Posts: 4331
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Re: 18 Unruly Teenage Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Mon Aug 09, 2021 8:47 pm

EAARbrat wrote:
Druish Princesses LOL

They don‘t fly KLM/Delta, they have a limited edition mercedes 2001 SEL. ;)
 
petertenthije
Posts: 4331
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Re: 18 Unruly Teenage Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Mon Aug 09, 2021 8:51 pm

smokeybandit wrote:
Designated meal time? So instead of people having masks off here and there throughout the flight, you have everyone with their masks off at the same time?

Sounds like brilliant science there.
If KLM ban movement during lunch time, then having everyone without masks would be less of a risk. I do not know if that is the case though.

That said, it’s a government rule, not a KLM rule. Same applies to trains, busses and other forms of public transportation.
 
johns624
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Re: 18 Unruly Teenage Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Mon Aug 09, 2021 9:11 pm

Heinkel wrote:

Or are these rules only on American carriers? I don't think, that LH makes such a nonsense.
Maybe you should read the thread before you post, as much of this occurred on KLM.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: 18 Orthodox Jewish Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Mon Aug 09, 2021 9:20 pm

mcdoogel wrote:
Either the airplane is safe and the HEPA filters and air circulation can withstand a short lunch or we can stop pretending it is safe and find another solution.


There is confirmed transmission on flight, irrespective of how much airlines want to talk about HEPA filters and speed of air exchanges. Seating proximity does matter - and it would be idiotic to declare it doesn't with any airborne virus.

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/11/20-3299_article

Safer than a grocery store doesn't mean safe.
 
RDUDDJI
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Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 4:42 am

Re: 18 Unruly Teenage Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Mon Aug 09, 2021 9:52 pm

The issue is they were walking around the aircraft without masks on. What time they ate, and whether it was in some allowed window, is about as important as wondering what how much fuel was in a fire truck that responded to a fire.

Also don’t understand what religion has to do with this… Anyone of any religion, who refuses to wear a mask knows they’ll face repercussions these days.
 
RDUDDJI
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Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 4:42 am

Re: 18 Orthodox Jewish Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Mon Aug 09, 2021 9:58 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
mcdoogel wrote:
Either the airplane is safe and the HEPA filters and air circulation can withstand a short lunch or we can stop pretending it is safe and find another solution.


There is confirmed transmission on flight, irrespective of how much airlines want to talk about HEPA filters and speed of air exchanges. Seating proximity does matter - and it would be idiotic to declare it doesn't with any airborne virus.

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/11/20-3299_article

Safer than a grocery store doesn't mean safe.


*Important CDC data TL;DR disclaimer: That was a symptomatic pax, and before mask mandates. Transmission is possible, and probable without masks, but far less likely with masked pax who now know not to travel with symptoms (But may not always heed the advice).
 
RR757
Posts: 21
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Re: 18 Orthodox Jewish Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Mon Aug 09, 2021 10:25 pm

2175301 wrote:
Kicking someone off a plane because they responded to a request to switch seats? Good Grief. I've switched seats often so other people could sit together, and once we asked another if they would switch so my wife and I could sit together. That's standard practice. There's a rule against that? I'd like to see that explained to a judge.

Then kicking the entire group off of the aircraft...

Given their religion I do not believe that these young ladies were misbehaving. Instead its most likely that they were on their best behavior.


I was on a TUI 757 flight, my row has full, the row in front was empty, I suggested to my fellow rowers I move forward one row once airborne. Cabin attendant went nuts and said I was affecting the aircraft balance. I did what I was told, didn’t make a fuss, but I was on a 757, not a Cessna 172.
 
crosscheckyyz
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Re: 18 Unruly Teenage Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Mon Aug 09, 2021 10:49 pm

smokeybandit wrote:
Designated meal time? So instead of people having masks off here and there throughout the flight, you have everyone with their masks off at the same time?

Sounds like brilliant science there.


But they are the rules. If you decide to break those rules then peace out, right? And if they flew on KL on the AMS-KBP going to Ukraine then you'd expect those rules to be exactly the same on the KBP-AMS portion, is that not correct?

How many times can pax break the rules after being warned? Also I guess depending on what flight they were doing, how come the group didn't eat before the flight in the lounge area?
 
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ua900
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Re: 18 Orthodox Jewish Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Mon Aug 09, 2021 11:21 pm

Both quoted Business Insider Articles seem a bit flawed:

1. During the first leg of their journey — a KLM-operated from Kyiv to Amsterdam — flight attendants reportedly disciplined the girls for failing to comply with coronavirus safety measures.The passengers breached the protocols by taking their masks off to eat their own food outside of the designated mealtimes, The Jerusalem Post reported. The girls were eating religiously approved kosher food provided to them by a rabbi that was not available on the flight, the paper added. Witnesses told Fox News that a KLM security guard "jeered" at the girls and made some of them cry. The Jerusalem Post reported that Dutch police were then called to remove the girls from the flight after they turned down requests to put their food away, but Fox News said that the girls were advised by an attorney not to vacate their seats.

It seems that the Dutch Police would be called in AMS, after landing from Kiev. At that point removing them from the KLM flight seems superfluous given that they've already reached their destination / layover. NB they reportably stayed inside the AMS terminal overnight, so it does not seem that the Koninklijke Marechaussee felt that any alleged onboard transgression of theirs was serious enough to warrant a removal from the terminal, further shedding doubt on a need to remove the girls from the flight (after landing in AMS that is).

2. Schumer was thought to have stepped in, the rabbi said, and Delta executives personally called the parents of the stranded girls and arranged a Delta flight from Amsterdam to New York for Friday morning.

I highly doubt that DL executives arranged a DL flight from AMS to NY for Friday morning. Far more likely that they simply called in to allow the girls to board a regularly scheduled flight. Little inaccuracies like that raise doubt about accurate reporting of the remainder of the story IMO.

Cubsrule wrote:
Dumb question time: what are the mask rules vis a vis eating and drinking in Europe? In the States, passengers may remove their masks to eat and drink at any time during flight. That seems to me at least marginally safer than everyone removing their masks simultaneously at "designated meal times."


Same on LH Group planes intra-Europe at this time. Can't speak for the supposed restriction on KLM with "designated meal times" as I could not find any primary source confirming the existence of said times. Having travelled through AMS this weekend, I can tell you that people in the terminal wear masks, but also not when eating and drinking, regardless of whether they sit down. Many people also take off their masks in that connector to the parking structure, and I did not see anyone say or do anything about that. In general, people wear masks on public transit and when inside stores, gas stations, Starbucks, etc.

crosscheckyyz wrote:
smokeybandit wrote:
Designated meal time? So instead of people having masks off here and there throughout the flight, you have everyone with their masks off at the same time?

Sounds like brilliant science there.


But they are the rules. If you decide to break those rules then peace out, right? And if they flew on KL on the AMS-KBP going to Ukraine then you'd expect those rules to be exactly the same on the KBP-AMS portion, is that not correct?

How many times can pax break the rules after being warned? Also I guess depending on what flight they were doing, how come the group didn't eat before the flight in the lounge area?


It would be nice to see that rule in writing. As for KLM, I could not find a source specifying that eating is limited to "designated meal times" (whatever that would be) but instead found this source here suggesting that it's OK with them if you take off your mask when drinking and eating onboard:

You can temporarily remove your mask while eating or drinking. Make sure to follow the instructions on how to remove and put on your mask. Store your mask in a clean space (e.g. in the original packaging or in a clean plastic bag). You’re not allowed to slide your mask under your chin or put it on your head.

Source: https://www.klm.us/information/faq/airport-on-board
 
AntonioMartin
Posts: 910
Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:58 am

Re: 18 Orthodox Jewish Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Mon Aug 09, 2021 11:46 pm

2175301 wrote:
Kicking someone off a plane because they responded to a request to switch seats? Good Grief. I've switched seats often so other people could sit together, and once we asked another if they would switch so my wife and I could sit together. That's standard practice. There's a rule against that? I'd like to see that explained to a judge.

Then kicking the entire group off of the aircraft...

Given their religion I do not believe that these young ladies were misbehaving. Instead its most likely that they were on their best behavior.


On my last trip, on Alaska in 2014, I switched seats about 3 times and no one said anything!

But then again, this was on a red eye flight with 30 passengers tops, and this was in 2014, pre-COVID
 
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Aaron747
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Re: 18 Unruly Teenage Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Tue Aug 10, 2021 1:56 am

Heinkel wrote:
smokeybandit wrote:
Designated meal time? So instead of people having masks off here and there throughout the flight, you have everyone with their masks off at the same time?

Sounds like brilliant science there.


Absolute ridiculous. Putting the mask on and off after every bite is plain stupid. Which sick brain has given this order?

This should not happen in civilised countries.

We learned here, that we have to drink a lot during flight not to get dehydrated. And now? Oberfeldwebel FA allows only one short time to drink during a flight????

Refusing a person to drink is torture.

The world has gone mad. Or are these rules only on American carriers? I don't think, that LH makes such a nonsense.


Feelings about how civilized a rule is are irrelevant. Those wanting to partake in air travel have to comply with policies, that’s all there is to it.
 
aklrno
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Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2010 11:18 pm

Re: 18 Unruly Teenage Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Tue Aug 10, 2021 1:56 am

I dread any flight with a large group of unsupervised or under supervised teenagers, regardless of religion. I was once on a flight from Rome to New York with a group returning from a visit to see the Pope. Probably not Jewish. I was in business and was wondering why the seat belt sign went on and stayed on for a very long time. The FA told me they were trying to get control of the cabin in the back, so I could get up and move around unless there was a verbal announcement otherwise. The kids were very excited about the papal audience.
 
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BawliBooch
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Re: 18 Unruly Teenage Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:06 am

As a journalist I have one question - What is the point of highlighting "Orthodox" and "Jewish" in the article?

Does that add to the objectivity or help the story in any way?
 
AntonioMartin
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Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:58 am

Re: 18 Unruly Teenage Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:36 am

BawliBooch wrote:
As a journalist I have one question - What is the point of highlighting "Orthodox" and "Jewish" in the article?

Does that add to the objectivity or help the story in any way?

I always thought orthodox is a different branch of the religion maybe? Like Catholics and Protestants, Sunni and Shiite?

I think the news should in the Christian case, make the difference in some cases. But in others, it's like, who cares? In fact, why even mention the religion in cases where it can potentially, create hate towards people of said religion unless we are talking about a major case like 9/11, here?

Ok, im gonna stop here. I am in no way endorsing a religious conversation, just answering a previous question with my views on that question. Im stopping because anything further will seem like I am deviating the conversation to a religious one and that is not my intention.

Back to topic...a case of mean girls maybe? You know, Im a young teen so Im better than you all oldies times 18??
 
N1120A
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Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

Re: 18 Unruly Teenage Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Tue Aug 10, 2021 8:41 pm

BawliBooch wrote:
As a journalist I have one question - What is the point of highlighting "Orthodox" and "Jewish" in the article?

Does that add to the objectivity or help the story in any way?


It is like saying "Evangelical Christian" instead of "Catholic." Or whatever. The bad behavior of this group is no reflection on Jews as a whole.
 
Rekoff
Posts: 57
Joined: Tue May 18, 2021 7:15 pm

Re: 18 Orthodox Jewish Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Tue Aug 10, 2021 10:50 pm

AngMoh wrote:
All Dutch reports refer to refusal to comply to COVID related regulations and most likely American style "I am the customer and I am always right" reaction to instructions was met by a typical Dutch "I don't get paid enough to have to deal with this shit, you get lost" response. I am disappointed they were not arrested in AMS, and playing this whole "we are being discriminated" noise shows that behaviour on the flight was purely intentional and not a misunderstanding.


What on earth did i just read? Are you Dutch? That is not typical dutch behaviour unless you mean dutch behave in an extremely unprofessional way.
And then you continue to say they needed to be arrested for eating outside designated times?? Fortunately Holland isnt a fascist state *yet*, although we are getting there fast.

Then, the *whole* group got evicted on the next flight because one of the girls changed places upon request from someone else, that wasnt evicted ?? wow just WOW. There is no justification for that and I agree with the rabbi, this reeks of anti-semitism.

"The minute they made the swap, a stewardess made a beeline to the girl and said, 'You're misbehaving, you're kind of on thin ice, to begin with, get off the plane,'" he said.

"A video seen by Insider appears to show a woman confirming that she asked to switch seats and that this led to the girls being asked to leave the flight."

If this is true, that stewardess needs to be fired.
 
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MetsNomad
Posts: 20
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Re: 18 Orthodox Jewish Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Tue Aug 10, 2021 11:40 pm

2175301 wrote:
One thing I am noticing is this insane inconsistency with airlines and the mask policy as it pertains to eating. Some United FA asked me to cover my face with a mask between every bite at which point I almost lost my mind. At that point we are at a level of power tripping and virus theater that bewilders me, Either the airplane is safe and the HEPA filters and air circulation can withstand a short lunch or we can stop pretending it is safe and find another solution.


I was on a Delta flight this past April and this is still their mask-wearing policy when it comes to eating and drinking aboard:

"Masks must be worn at all times except while eating, drinking, or taking oral medications for brief periods. Prolonged periods of mask removal are not permitted for eating or drinking – masks must be worn between bites and sips."

More info:
https://www.delta.com/us/en/travel-plan ... face-masks
 
cedarjet
Posts: 8993
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 1:12 am

Re: 18 Unruly Teenage Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Wed Aug 11, 2021 7:13 am

Oy vey. Big eye roll for those claiming antisemitism, Orthodox Jews causing delays or getting kicked off planes because they won’t sit next to someone of the opposite gender or wanting to pray in the aisle during taxi are as regular on here as questions about Boeing resurrecting the 757. Including El Al. I see one poster even having a dig at KLM for “refusing” to serve kosher meals on short haul. Allow me to put that one to rest right now: KLM short haul “refuse” to serve Hindu, Halal, low salt, vegetarian etc etc meals too.

Maybe KLM and Delta won’t tolerate bad behaviour that compromises the safety of any, including the culprits, or inconveniences other fare paying customers and crew duties, regardless of the culprits’ religious persuasion.
 
toobz
Posts: 898
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Re: 18 Unruly Teenage Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Wed Aug 11, 2021 9:02 am

I agree. Ive been inconvenienced by their selfish behavior a few times.
 
SwissCanuck
Posts: 287
Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2014 8:06 am

Re: 18 Unruly Teenage Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Wed Aug 11, 2021 9:08 am

Like on most public transportation systems, if there's a fare dispute with the driver, pay the fare and deal with it later. There isn't time for debate during operations.

Add the safety aspect on an aircraft. You don't debate with staff on the plane, period. If you have a beef it should be dealt with on the ground afterwards. Period. Clearly they weren't following crew member instructions, after several warnings, and they were rightly denied the right to fly.
 
2175301
Posts: 2238
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 11:19 am

Re: 18 Orthodox Jewish Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Wed Aug 11, 2021 9:24 pm

MetsNomad wrote:
2175301 wrote:
One thing I am noticing is this insane inconsistency with airlines and the mask policy as it pertains to eating. Some United FA asked me to cover my face with a mask between every bite at which point I almost lost my mind. At that point we are at a level of power tripping and virus theater that bewilders me, Either the airplane is safe and the HEPA filters and air circulation can withstand a short lunch or we can stop pretending it is safe and find another solution.


I was on a Delta flight this past April and this is still their mask-wearing policy when it comes to eating and drinking aboard:

"Masks must be worn at all times except while eating, drinking, or taking oral medications for brief periods. Prolonged periods of mask removal are not permitted for eating or drinking – masks must be worn between bites and sips."

More info:
https://www.delta.com/us/en/travel-plan ... face-masks



I didn't write the quoted paragraph. I suggest that you edit it to list whoever did.

Have a great day,
 
Douglas7Seas
Posts: 131
Joined: Mon May 10, 2004 5:00 pm

Re: 18 Orthodox Jewish Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Wed Aug 11, 2021 10:42 pm

Western727 wrote:
SurlyBonds wrote:
I suspect that, in the light most favorable to KL/DL, the crew was concerned that these girls were unvaccinated, since some may be below 16 and there is vaccine hesitancy within the ultra-orthodox community. However, anti-semitism certainly is a possibility.


Anti-semitism I agree is a possibility. I would like to speculate on another: ultra-conservative or orthodox "anything". In this age of growing gender equality (among other forms of equality), I can see these ultra-conservative/orthodox religions being called out more and more for their increasingly outdated views.


"Outdated views"? Really? Because they don't mesh with the current and trendy progressive drivel? A good portion of the world is Muslim or Jewish and I think they would take issue with you referring to their "views" as outdated.
 
Western727
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Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:38 pm

Re: 18 Orthodox Jewish Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Wed Aug 11, 2021 11:40 pm

Douglas7Seas wrote:
Western727 wrote:
SurlyBonds wrote:
I suspect that, in the light most favorable to KL/DL, the crew was concerned that these girls were unvaccinated, since some may be below 16 and there is vaccine hesitancy within the ultra-orthodox community. However, anti-semitism certainly is a possibility.


Anti-semitism I agree is a possibility. I would like to speculate on another: ultra-conservative or orthodox "anything". In this age of growing gender equality (among other forms of equality), I can see these ultra-conservative/orthodox religions being called out more and more for their increasingly outdated views.


"Outdated views"? Really? Because they don't mesh with the current and trendy progressive drivel? A good portion of the world is Muslim or Jewish and I think they would take issue with you referring to their "views" as outdated.


Reread what I wrote. A portion of them are ultra-conservative/orthodox which is my point. A big portion of them aren't, and that's the portion I welcome.
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 12688
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Re: 18 Orthodox Jewish Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Thu Aug 12, 2021 8:16 am

Western727 wrote:
Douglas7Seas wrote:
Western727 wrote:

Anti-semitism I agree is a possibility. I would like to speculate on another: ultra-conservative or orthodox "anything". In this age of growing gender equality (among other forms of equality), I can see these ultra-conservative/orthodox religions being called out more and more for their increasingly outdated views.


"Outdated views"? Really? Because they don't mesh with the current and trendy progressive drivel? A good portion of the world is Muslim or Jewish and I think they would take issue with you referring to their "views" as outdated.


Reread what I wrote. A portion of them are ultra-conservative/orthodox which is my point. A big portion of them aren't, and that's the portion I welcome.


Perhaps I could offer my point of view. I am agnostic and probably to be honest a non-believer. For me, all religions are quite silly. That is my personal point of view. And that is as legitimate as saying that you believe in xyz-God doing xyz- on this earth of ours. That said, I have no problem with religion as a concept. People can believe in whatever they like, but there is a catch to that. Their personal freedom to express their religion is no problem, as long as it doesn't interfere with my personal freedom not to be bothered by that. And that is where many of the problems arise. Orthodox - or any religion - tend to put their religious 'needs' above anything else, including the personal space of others. And they make the rational: their authority is a God, and everything else is subordinate to that, including people not believing in God.
So in short, for me, people can believe whatever they like, as long as they do not impose their religion on others in any way of form.
 
speedbird52
Posts: 1078
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 5:30 am

Re: 18 Unruly Teenage Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Thu Aug 12, 2021 8:56 am

Are you guys actually telling me that if I eat food on an airplane I brought on board myself anytime outside a designated "meal time", that I will be disobeying crew instructions? Absolute insanity. That is the type of treatment you expect in prisons, not for customers paying hundreds of dollars
 
Western727
Posts: 2093
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:38 pm

Re: 18 Orthodox Jewish Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Thu Aug 12, 2021 12:12 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Western727 wrote:
Douglas7Seas wrote:

"Outdated views"? Really? Because they don't mesh with the current and trendy progressive drivel? A good portion of the world is Muslim or Jewish and I think they would take issue with you referring to their "views" as outdated.


Reread what I wrote. A portion of them are ultra-conservative/orthodox which is my point. A big portion of them aren't, and that's the portion I welcome.


Perhaps I could offer my point of view. I am agnostic and probably to be honest a non-believer. For me, all religions are quite silly. That is my personal point of view. And that is as legitimate as saying that you believe in xyz-God doing xyz- on this earth of ours. That said, I have no problem with religion as a concept. People can believe in whatever they like, but there is a catch to that. Their personal freedom to express their religion is no problem, as long as it doesn't interfere with my personal freedom not to be bothered by that. And that is where many of the problems arise. Orthodox - or any religion - tend to put their religious 'needs' above anything else, including the personal space of others. And they make the rational: their authority is a God, and everything else is subordinate to that, including people not believing in God.
So in short, for me, people can believe whatever they like, as long as they do not impose their religion on others in any way of form.


Your views I'm on board with; I earlier chose not to divulge my agnostic views of religion, instead choosing the "low hanging fruit" in the form of orthodox/conservative religions which I believe no longer have a place in modern society for various reasons--their belief in gender inequality being an example--so your comment of religion not being imposed on others is one I absolutely agree with you on. Indeed, global religious participation has been dwindling for some time, and I think that's a good thing.
 
TokyoImperialPa
Posts: 37
Joined: Sun May 23, 2021 1:50 pm

Re: 18 Unruly Teenage Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Thu Aug 12, 2021 3:11 pm

It is wrong to call it "unruly" behavior. I would think it was okay to eat meals outside designated times as long as my mask went back on afterwards. And there were at least two people involved in the seat change and one of those did not kicked off.
 
crosscheckyyz
Posts: 76
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2020 1:50 am

Re: 18 Unruly Teenage Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Thu Aug 12, 2021 3:35 pm

speedbird52 wrote:
Are you guys actually telling me that if I eat food on an airplane I brought on board myself anytime outside a designated "meal time", that I will be disobeying crew instructions? Absolute insanity. That is the type of treatment you expect in prisons, not for customers paying hundreds of dollars


No one said you had to fly on the airline if you didn't like the rule. There are other options. Flying is privilege. We are also in the midst of a pandemic. Some airlines don't even allow you to bring outside food on board and this was pre-covid. The designated meal times was set by the airline, maybe with customer safety in mind, or maybe it was crew safety in mind. Did you consider that? Or that we are governments and companies are trying to figure out to best keep people and their employees safe - this has never occurred before. There's no need to go from 1 to 100 in 10 seconds with your suggestion that this is treatment you expect in prisons.
 
slvrblt
Posts: 400
Joined: Tue Dec 28, 2004 11:19 pm

Re: 18 Orthodox Jewish Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Thu Aug 12, 2021 4:08 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Perhaps I could offer my point of view. I am agnostic and probably to be honest a non-believer. For me, all religions are quite silly. That is my personal point of view. And that is as legitimate as saying that you believe in xyz-God doing xyz- on this earth of ours. That said, I have no problem with religion as a concept. People can believe in whatever they like, but there is a catch to that. Their personal freedom to express their religion is no problem, as long as it doesn't interfere with my personal freedom not to be bothered by that. And that is where many of the problems arise. Orthodox - or any religion - tend to put their religious 'needs' above anything else, including the personal space of others. And they make the rational: their authority is a God, and everything else is subordinate to that, including people not believing in God.
So in short, for me, people can believe whatever they like, as long as they do not impose their religion on others in any way of form.


Best post of all in this thread.
 
AntonioMartin
Posts: 910
Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:58 am

Re: 18 Orthodox Jewish Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Sun Aug 15, 2021 4:36 am

slvrblt wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Perhaps I could offer my point of view. I am agnostic and probably to be honest a non-believer. For me, all religions are quite silly. That is my personal point of view. And that is as legitimate as saying that you believe in xyz-God doing xyz- on this earth of ours. That said, I have no problem with religion as a concept. People can believe in whatever they like, but there is a catch to that. Their personal freedom to express their religion is no problem, as long as it doesn't interfere with my personal freedom not to be bothered by that. And that is where many of the problems arise. Orthodox - or any religion - tend to put their religious 'needs' above anything else, including the personal space of others. And they make the rational: their authority is a God, and everything else is subordinate to that, including people not believing in God.
So in short, for me, people can believe whatever they like, as long as they do not impose their religion on others in any way of form.


Best post of all in this thread.


Exactly..myself I believe in explaining my religion when asked about it but not in imposing it upon others....I pray that I get a chance to explain it but I dont go around saying "you must repent" because in order for my views to be respected,I have to respect others' views as well.

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Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos