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TMccrury
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18 Unruly Teenage Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Mon Aug 09, 2021 1:29 am

A tour group of 18 Orthodox Jewish Girls were barred from boarding a Delta flight between AMS-JFK. It was over a Covid 19 Protocol dispute. According to the linked news article, they removed their mask to eat the kosher meals provided to them outside of the designated meal time on a flight from Kyiv to AMS. A day later, they were removed from another flight for changing seats.

https://www.businessinsider.com/delta-o ... ork-2021-8
 
Cubsrule
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Re: 18 Orthodox Jewish Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Mon Aug 09, 2021 1:57 am

Dumb question time: what are the mask rules vis a vis eating and drinking in Europe? In the States, passengers may remove their masks to eat and drink at any time during flight. That seems to me at least marginally safer than everyone removing their masks simultaneously at "designated meal times."
 
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Aaron747
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Re: 18 Orthodox Jewish Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Mon Aug 09, 2021 2:03 am

Cubsrule wrote:
Dumb question time: what are the mask rules vis a vis eating and drinking in Europe? In the States, passengers may remove their masks to eat and drink at any time during flight. That seems to me at least marginally safer than everyone removing their masks simultaneously at "designated meal times."


As long as nobody is engaged in lively conversation there should not be a problem either way. People are not exhaling with great force when eating.

As for the girls - you can either follow rules or you can't. No exceptions.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: 18 Orthodox Jewish Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Mon Aug 09, 2021 2:06 am

Aaron747 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
Dumb question time: what are the mask rules vis a vis eating and drinking in Europe? In the States, passengers may remove their masks to eat and drink at any time during flight. That seems to me at least marginally safer than everyone removing their masks simultaneously at "designated meal times."


As long as nobody is engaged in lively conversation there should not be a problem either way. People are not exhaling with great force when eating.

As for the girls - you can either follow rules or you can't. No exceptions.


As long as the packs are on (i.e., at least in all phases of flight), masks probably don't make much difference. While people absolutely need to follow the rules and crew member instructions, it surprises me that any flight attendant or carrier would have an issue with passengers who are actively eating or drinking. While the US carriers generally ask people to replace masks between bites or sips, I have never seen any flight attendant fuss about that rule as long as it isn't 5 or 10 minutes between bites or sips.
 
2175301
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Re: 18 Orthodox Jewish Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Mon Aug 09, 2021 2:17 am

Kicking someone off a plane because they responded to a request to switch seats? Good Grief. I've switched seats often so other people could sit together, and once we asked another if they would switch so my wife and I could sit together. That's standard practice. There's a rule against that? I'd like to see that explained to a judge.

Then kicking the entire group off of the aircraft...

Given their religion I do not believe that these young ladies were misbehaving. Instead its most likely that they were on their best behavior.
 
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airportugal310
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Re: 18 Orthodox Jewish Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Mon Aug 09, 2021 2:25 am

2175301 wrote:
Kicking someone off a plane because they responded to a request to switch seats? Good Grief. I've switched seats often so other people could sit together, and once we asked another if they would switch so my wife and I could sit together. That's standard practice. There's a rule against that? I'd like to see that explained to a judge.

Then kicking the entire group off of the aircraft...

Given their religion I do not believe that these young ladies were misbehaving. Instead its most likely that they were on their best behavior.


Was there sarcasm here that I missed?
 
ASFlyer
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Re: 18 Orthodox Jewish Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Mon Aug 09, 2021 2:27 am

2175301 wrote:
Kicking someone off a plane because they responded to a request to switch seats? Good Grief. I've switched seats often so other people could sit together, and once we asked another if they would switch so my wife and I could sit together. That's standard practice. There's a rule against that? I'd like to see that explained to a judge.

Then kicking the entire group off of the aircraft...

Given their religion I do not believe that these young ladies were misbehaving. Instead its most likely that they were on their best behavior.


... and yet, they were kicked off of two different flights on two different airlines it seems. I wasn't there, but it seems odd that two different airlines would kick them off.
 
mcdoogel
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Re: 18 Orthodox Jewish Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Mon Aug 09, 2021 2:35 am

ASFlyer wrote:
2175301 wrote:
Kicking someone off a plane because they responded to a request to switch seats? Good Grief. I've switched seats often so other people could sit together, and once we asked another if they would switch so my wife and I could sit together. That's standard practice. There's a rule against that? I'd like to see that explained to a judge.

Then kicking the entire group off of the aircraft...

Given their religion I do not believe that these young ladies were misbehaving. Instead its most likely that they were on their best behavior.


... and yet, they were kicked off of two different flights on two different airlines it seems. I wasn't there, but it seems odd that two different airlines would kick them off.


Yeah Hard to say with limited details.

One thing I am noticing is this insane inconsistency with airlines and the mask policy as it pertains to eating. Some United FA asked me to cover my face with a mask between every bite at which point I almost lost my mind. At that point we are at a level of power tripping and virus theater that bewilders me, Either the airplane is safe and the HEPA filters and air circulation can withstand a short lunch or we can stop pretending it is safe and find another solution.
 
crosscheckyyz
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Re: 18 Orthodox Jewish Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Mon Aug 09, 2021 2:39 am

There's always two side of the story.
 
DLASFlyer
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Re: 18 Orthodox Jewish Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Mon Aug 09, 2021 3:00 am

Clearly this group was disruptive on two different airlines. I find it highly unlikely anyone from KLM would have warned Delta about the passengers, meaning two different flight crews came to the same conclusion. Even after intervention from a United States Senator, Delta employees still found the group unfit for travel. Then Delta corporate reviewed the incident, going so far as to note the passengers were non-compliant. Next sob story please.
 
flyer56
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Re: 18 Orthodox Jewish Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Mon Aug 09, 2021 3:03 am

crosscheckyyz wrote:
There's always two side of the story.


Sure is.

According to more detailed reports in Europe, the group of young girls were first warned by KML about their behavior and not following security protocols after their initial flight out of JFK. They were told no more warnings and they would be removed from any future flights if they disobeyed instructions again.

The Kiev to AMS flight does not cater kosher meals but passengers are allowed to eat meals they bring on board within the designated meal time. This was the same as their flight from AMS to Kiev. After the designated meal time some girls (maybe all, the number is not clear) decided to eat what they had brought on board and removed their masks and did so. They were also up and about in the aisles without masks. KLM followed through their earlier warning and removed them from their connecting flight.

Was KLM right in what they did? I don't know, it does sound heavy handed, but the girls cannot say they were not warned.

He is one such article giving more details: https://netherlandsnewslive.com/18-orth ... ad/214447/
Last edited by flyer56 on Mon Aug 09, 2021 3:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
flyer56
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Re: 18 Orthodox Jewish Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Mon Aug 09, 2021 3:04 am

DLASFlyer wrote:
Clearly this group was disruptive on two different airlines. I find it highly unlikely anyone from KLM would have warned Delta about the passengers, meaning two different flight crews came to the same conclusion. Even after intervention from a United States Senator, Delta employees still found the group unfit for travel. Then Delta corporate reviewed the incident, going so far as to note the passengers were non-compliant. Next sob story please.


It sounds like the PNR was noted with the trouble KLM had after their first flight our of JFK. If DL then carried them on the same ticket is it possible DL agents saw the annotation and warned the crew?
 
flyer56
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Re: 18 Orthodox Jewish Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Mon Aug 09, 2021 3:07 am

flyer56 wrote:
crosscheckyyz wrote:
There's always two side of the story.


Sure is.

According to more detailed reports in Europe, the group of young girls were first warned by KML about their behavior and not following security protocols after their initial flight out of JFK. They were told no more warnings and they would be removed from any future flights if they disobeyed instructions again.

The Kiev to AMS flight does not cater kosher meals but passengers are allowed to eat meals they bring on board within the designated meal time. This was the same as their flight from AMS to Kiev. After the designated meal time some girls (maybe all, the number is not clear) decided to eat what they had brought on board and removed their masks and did so. They were also up and about in the aisles without masks. KLM followed through their earlier warning and removed them from their connecting flight.

Was KLM right in what they did? I don't know, it does sound heavy handed, but the girls cannot say they were not warned.

Here is one such article giving more details: https://netherlandsnewslive.com/18-orth ... ad/214447/
 
flyer56
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Re: 18 Orthodox Jewish Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Mon Aug 09, 2021 4:12 am

flyer56 wrote:
crosscheckyyz wrote:
There's always two side of the story.


Sure is.

According to more detailed reports in Europe, the group of young girls were first warned by KL about their behavior and not following security protocols after their initial flight out of JFK. They were told no more warnings and they would be removed from any future flights if they disobeyed instructions again.

The Kiev to AMS flight does not cater kosher meals but passengers are allowed to eat meals they bring on board within the designated meal time. This was the same as their flight from AMS to Kiev. After the designated meal time some girls (maybe all, the number is not clear) decided to eat what they had brought on board and removed their masks and did so. They were also up and about in the aisles without masks. KLM followed through their earlier warning and removed them from their connecting flight.

Was KLM right in what they did? I don't know, it does sound heavy handed, but the girls cannot say they were not warned.

He is one such article giving more details: https://netherlandsnewslive.com/18-orth ... ad/214447/
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: 18 Orthodox Jewish Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Mon Aug 09, 2021 4:15 am

ABpositive wrote:
Perhaps a silly question, but why does the tread title start with "18 Orthodox Jewish Girls" and not just "18 unruly passengers" or just "18 passangers"? Even if the mainstream media is using this click-bait tactics is that really needed here? I hope we are intelligent enough to be able to draw our own conclusions and ask reasonable questions.

The way I read it, at no point were the girls barred from boarding flights, but were kicked off after failing to follow crew's orders.


I reacted to that as well, but the fact that they were Jewish is relevant to the story of what transpired.
 
dcajet
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Re: 18 Orthodox Jewish Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Mon Aug 09, 2021 4:15 am

2175301 wrote:
Kicking someone off a plane because they responded to a request to switch seats? Good Grief. I've switched seats often so other people could sit together, and once we asked another if they would switch so my wife and I could sit together. That's standard practice. There's a rule against that? I'd like to see that explained to a judge.

Then kicking the entire group off of the aircraft...

Given their religion I do not believe that these young ladies were misbehaving. Instead its most likely that they were on their best behavior.


Were you there? I don't think much is known about the incident to take sides.
 
AngMoh
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Re: 18 Orthodox Jewish Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Mon Aug 09, 2021 4:36 am

ABpositive wrote:
Perhaps a silly question, but why does the tread title start with "18 Orthodox Jewish Girls" and not just "18 unruly passengers" or just "18 passangers"? Even if the mainstream media is using this click-bait tactics is that really needed here? I hope we are intelligent enough to be able to draw our own conclusions and ask reasonable questions.

The way I read it, at no point were the girls barred from boarding flights, but were kicked off after failing to follow crew's orders.


The Dutch media never mentioned "Orthodox Jewish" girls, only "disruptive". It was clear that there were incidents on the JFK-AMS-KIV flights and then repeat incidents on the KIV-AMS and then they were refused boarding on AMS-JFK. All Dutch reports refer to refusal to comply to COVID related regulations and most likely American style "I am the customer and I am always right" reaction to instructions was met by a typical Dutch "I don't get paid enough to have to deal with this shit, you get lost" response. I am disappointed they were not arrested in AMS, and playing this whole "we are being discriminated" noise shows that behaviour on the flight was purely intentional and not a misunderstanding.

flyer56 wrote:
DLASFlyer wrote:
Clearly this group was disruptive on two different airlines. I find it highly unlikely anyone from KLM would have warned Delta about the passengers, meaning two different flight crews came to the same conclusion. Even after intervention from a United States Senator, Delta employees still found the group unfit for travel. Then Delta corporate reviewed the incident, going so far as to note the passengers were non-compliant. Next sob story please.


It sounds like the PNR was noted with the trouble KLM had after their first flight our of JFK. If DL then carried them on the same ticket is it possible DL agents saw the annotation and warned the crew?


AMS-JFK has been a joint venture ever since KLM and Northwest started their joint venture. Delta would have known exactly what happened because the same people responsible for the KL trans-Atlantic flights are responsible for the DL trans-Atlantic flights from AMS. They are more than just a codeshare: they are joint venture flights.
 
Noshow
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Re: 18 Orthodox Jewish Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Mon Aug 09, 2021 5:43 am

There are a lot of funny rules these days but you follow them or you forget ALL rules for everybody.
So many people try to bend and max out everything if only it is to their own advantage. If you sit on a plane wearing a mask for hours and they stroll through the aisle without one, exposing you to higher risk, I would hate to watch this as well. If they were warned I have no regrets.
 
Amsterdam
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Re: 18 Orthodox Jewish Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Mon Aug 09, 2021 7:39 am

You must listen. End of story. Comply or get the f* of the plane.
 
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eurotrader85
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Re: 18 Orthodox Jewish Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Mon Aug 09, 2021 8:18 am

ABpositive wrote:
Perhaps a silly question, but why does the tread title start with "18 Orthodox Jewish Girls" and not just "18 unruly passengers" or just "18 passangers"? Even if the mainstream media is using this click-bait tactics is that really needed here? I hope we are intelligent enough to be able to draw our own conclusions and ask reasonable questions.

The way I read it, at no point were the girls barred from boarding flights, but were kicked off after failing to follow crew's orders.


This 100%. I actually find it pathetic that Business Insider (whom I normally look at as providing insightful journalism) has pushed this ridiculous idea of anti-semitism at play in order for as you say, clickbait. As everyone has said, they were clearly breaking the rules on multiple occasions, warned, and eventually kicked off. Fair play to the airlines.
 
jubaexpress
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Re: 18 Orthodox Jewish Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Mon Aug 09, 2021 8:33 am

flyer56 wrote:
joeycapps wrote:
flyer56 wrote:
After the designated meal time some girls (maybe all, the number is not clear) decided to eat what they had brought on board and removed their masks and did so.


I'm a bit confused... So having everyone take their muzzles off at the same time to eat is cool, but a certain group of people traveling together taking their masks off (while everyone else has their's on) is somehow harmful to the other passengers? Maybe I'm not looking at this situation correctly, but it seems like the only people in danger are this group themselves...

That, or somehow COVID only attacks before and after the "designated meal time". :duck:


Don't misunderstand me, I am not saying any of this is supported by science. I am suggesting that KL has a strict pandemic eating policy and they were not following it. Whether the policy makes sense is a whole different ball game.


The problem with your statement is the certainty with which you say KL has a strict pandemic eating policy. If KLM have a strict eating policy it is variably enforced. It would appear that the final straw happened on the Kiev-Amsterdam flight. There is no rigidly enforced eating policy on short haul (6 flights short haul KLM in 4 weeks, including 3 days ago). Which means the policy, if it exists, is applied with 'discretion' which leaves the door open for discriminatory implemention.
 
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metalinyoni
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Re: 18 Orthodox Jewish Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Mon Aug 09, 2021 8:45 am

As far as I can tell, the article in the OP doesn't mention the age of the girls. If the girls were late teens (or young women) then I have little sympathy but if they were girls then where were the supervising adults?

If I was an FA and a group of unsupervised 13 year olds (girls or boys) boarded a flight, I would throw them off even if they haven't done anything, because you know they will do something eventually.
 
petertenthije
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Re: 18 Orthodox Jewish Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Mon Aug 09, 2021 9:01 am

metalinyoni wrote:
As far as I can tell, the article in the OP doesn't mention the age of the girls.

According to a local news source, the group was a mix of people over and under 18 years old. Due to privacy rules, I would not expect any more details to be released, unless the group releases it to the media themselves.

https://www.nhnieuws.nl/nieuws/289960/1 ... ronaregels
 
Fliplot
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Re: 18 Orthodox Jewish Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Mon Aug 09, 2021 9:46 am

Kiev flights and Orthodox Jews have been problematic in the past. I have experience of a flught being delayed by 40 mins while an passenger decided he needed to pray before departure. He took the kneeling position in the aisle and did not move until finished. Ukrainians can be sensitive and no action was taken. The approach of the discriminated passenger is usually used.
 
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eta unknown
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Re: 18 Orthodox Jewish Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Mon Aug 09, 2021 9:52 am

jubaexpress wrote:
The problem with your statement is the certainty with which you say KL has a strict pandemic eating policy. If KLM have a strict eating policy it is variably enforced. It would appear that the final straw happened on the Kiev-Amsterdam flight. There is no rigidly enforced eating policy on short haul (6 flights short haul KLM in 4 weeks, including 3 days ago). Which means the policy, if it exists, is applied with 'discretion' which leaves the door open for discriminatory implemention.

I 100% disagree... whether the policy is wishy-washy or not is immaterial- it is the policy on the flight you are on at the moment and the group did not comply. Just because KLM applies the policy discretionally does not IN ANY WAY mean a pax can discretionally not follow it- it's thinking like that that will get you thrown off a plane.
 
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vfw614
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Re: 18 Orthodox Jewish Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Mon Aug 09, 2021 10:00 am

I somehow how doubt that they were removed from the AMS-NYC flight just because one girl swapped seats at the request of a mother who wanted to be seated next to her child...

Interesting, btw, that the US Senate majority leader has time to step in in cases like these and sort out transportation issues... I will give it a try and call my local MP as well the next I hve issues with an airline...
 
psolk
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Re: 18 Orthodox Jewish Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Mon Aug 09, 2021 10:12 am

You are all missing the point of the DL flight removal. KLM-AMS was for eating. Apparently the ENTIRE group was removed from the DL flight because a woman (who came forward and confirmed) asked one of the girls to move so she could sit with her family. She has since confirmed she ASKED the girl to move. The ENTIRE group was then removed from the flight. How often has an entire group been removed because someone in the group switched seats?
DL tried to put them on another flight, it was on the sabbath so they slept at the airport and took United instead.

I would like to hear DL's side of the story as to why an entire group had to be removed.
 
s1m7n
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Re: 18 Unruly Teenage Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Mon Aug 09, 2021 11:50 am

I am not taking any position for or against this group without further information, but based on what I've read on KLM's website, they do not note designated meal times on their site. So unless this information is provided separately (which would further serve to confuse passengers), then we definitely need more details on the KBP-AMS leg of the journey as well.

Eating and drinking

You can temporarily remove your mask while eating or drinking. Make sure to follow the instructions on how to remove and put on your mask. Store your mask in a clean space (e.g. in the original packaging or in a clean plastic bag). You’re not allowed to slide your mask under your chin or put it on your head.


https://www.klm.us/information/faq
 
HTCone
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Re: 18 Unruly Teenage Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Mon Aug 09, 2021 12:28 pm

Changing seats in COVID times is a big no-no now due to potential need to contact trace those on board. The passenger manifest is used for this purpose by relevant national authorities.
 
LCDFlight
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Re: 18 Unruly Teenage Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Mon Aug 09, 2021 12:52 pm

Saying you can do whatever you want, and re-evaluate crew instructions whenever you want is a Pandora’s box and not correct. That is not how any of this works.

But, this is a “you know it when you see it” situation. People being disruptive on a plane is clear to identify. The people on the planes know exactly what happened and we don’t, yet.
 
ozark1
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Re: 18 Unruly Teenage Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Mon Aug 09, 2021 1:39 pm

Come on guys. What’s all the fuss about a seat change or mask adherence. How about behavioral issues? There is always always a mention of “ I can’t understand why the flight attendant did that”. You try and regulate a group of 18 on a long international flight.Plus it’s Delta. I hate these kind of threads where yet another fuss-up occurs inflight and the airline is questioned how they handled it without knowing all the details. This site is Airliners.net. Not Brawl and Yell.com.
 
AngMoh
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Re: 18 Unruly Teenage Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Mon Aug 09, 2021 1:43 pm

From https://nos.nl/liveblog/2392782-18-vrouwen-van-klm-vlucht-gehaald-nederland-geeft-vaccins-aan-namibie:

Op een KLM-vlucht van Kiev naar New York met een tussenstop op Schiphol is donderdag een groep van achttien jonge vrouwen van boord gehaald. Ze hielden zich niet aan de coronaregels. Volgens de luchtvaartmaatschappij liepen ze zonder mondkapjes door het vliegtuig. Ook gebruikten ze de regel dat het mondkapje af mag met eten als excuus.

Het vliegtuigpersoneel heeft de vrouwen meerdere keren op de regels geattendeerd en een laatste waarschuwing gegeven. Vervolgens is contact opgenomen met de veiligheidsdienst op Schiphol. Daaruit bleek dat de vrouwen op 20 juli op een vlucht van New York naar Amsterdam ook al de instructies van de bemanning hadden genegeerd en een laatste waarschuwing hadden gekregen. Bij aankomst op Schiphol werd de groep daarom van boord gehaald. De vrouwen mochten hun reis naar New York niet met KLM vervolgen.


Translated: they were removed for walking through the plane without mask (mask wearing at all times is required by dutch law on KLM flights) and using having to eat as excuse. They were warned multiple times and received a final warning. Schiphol airport security was notified and they informed the crew that a similar incident occurred on 20 July on the JFK-AMS flight and the same group also received a final warning for that incident after ignoring multiple instructions from the crew. As it was a repeat offence they were removed from the flight in AMS and the language seems to imply that this was done by Schiphol airport security.

The other article by luchtvaartniews.nl linked earlier in this thread also states that the decision to remove the passengers was made by airport security, not by the crew, and also stated due to repeats of the same type of incident.

Absolutely nothing to do with the request to change a seat of having to eat a meal.
 
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scbriml
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Re: 18 Unruly Teenage Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Mon Aug 09, 2021 1:55 pm

AngMoh wrote:
Absolutely nothing to do with the request to change a seat of having to eat a meal.


Or that they follow certain religious beliefs.
 
alfa164
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Re: 18 Unruly Teenage Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Mon Aug 09, 2021 2:08 pm

AngMoh wrote:
From https://nos.nl/liveblog/2392782-18-vrouwen-van-klm-vlucht-gehaald-nederland-geeft-vaccins-aan-namibie:

Op een KLM-vlucht van Kiev naar New York met een tussenstop op Schiphol is donderdag een groep van achttien jonge vrouwen van boord gehaald. Ze hielden zich niet aan de coronaregels. Volgens de luchtvaartmaatschappij liepen ze zonder mondkapjes door het vliegtuig. Ook gebruikten ze de regel dat het mondkapje af mag met eten als excuus.

Het vliegtuigpersoneel heeft de vrouwen meerdere keren op de regels geattendeerd en een laatste waarschuwing gegeven. Vervolgens is contact opgenomen met de veiligheidsdienst op Schiphol. Daaruit bleek dat de vrouwen op 20 juli op een vlucht van New York naar Amsterdam ook al de instructies van de bemanning hadden genegeerd en een laatste waarschuwing hadden gekregen. Bij aankomst op Schiphol werd de groep daarom van boord gehaald. De vrouwen mochten hun reis naar New York niet met KLM vervolgen.


Translated: they were removed for walking through the plane without mask (mask wearing at all times is required by dutch law on KLM flights) and using having to eat as excuse. They were warned multiple times and received a final warning. Schiphol airport security was notified and they informed the crew that a similar incident occurred on 20 July on the JFK-AMS flight and the same group also received a final warning for that incident after ignoring multiple instructions from the crew. As it was a repeat offence they were removed from the flight in AMS and the language seems to imply that this was done by Schiphol airport security.

The other article by luchtvaartniews.nl linked earlier in this thread also states that the decision to remove the passengers was made by airport security, not by the crew, and also stated due to repeats of the same type of incident.

Absolutely nothing to do with the request to change a seat of having to eat a meal.


Thank you for actually offering facts! That alone is rare enough to deserve plaudits here.
 
IADCA
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Re: 18 Orthodox Jewish Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Mon Aug 09, 2021 2:17 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
Dumb question time: what are the mask rules vis a vis eating and drinking in Europe? In the States, passengers may remove their masks to eat and drink at any time during flight. That seems to me at least marginally safer than everyone removing their masks simultaneously at "designated meal times."


As long as nobody is engaged in lively conversation there should not be a problem either way. People are not exhaling with great force when eating.

As for the girls - you can either follow rules or you can't. No exceptions.


As long as the packs are on (i.e., at least in all phases of flight), masks probably don't make much difference. While people absolutely need to follow the rules and crew member instructions, it surprises me that any flight attendant or carrier would have an issue with passengers who are actively eating or drinking. While the US carriers generally ask people to replace masks between bites or sips, I have never seen any flight attendant fuss about that rule as long as it isn't 5 or 10 minutes between bites or sips.


I had an AA regional (don't remember which; I think PSA) FA watching my just-turned-two year old like a hawk to ensure the kid was wearing a mask between bites (and loudly commenting about it, as kid wasn't happy about the repeated off-on) on a flight 2 weeks ago.

This was on a 1.5 hour flight leaving before 8 am. I'm not normally an angry customer, but I did point out to her when deplaning within hearing of her colleague that she'd made my flight much harder and scared my kid for no appreciable health benefits to anyone. Passengers around me also took my side.
 
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Revelation
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Re: 18 Orthodox Jewish Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Mon Aug 09, 2021 2:48 pm

mcdoogel wrote:
One thing I am noticing is this insane inconsistency with airlines and the mask policy as it pertains to eating. Some United FA asked me to cover my face with a mask between every bite at which point I almost lost my mind. At that point we are at a level of power tripping and virus theater that bewilders me, Either the airplane is safe and the HEPA filters and air circulation can withstand a short lunch or we can stop pretending it is safe and find another solution.

Power trip? You're a passenger on a metal tube hurtling through the air at 600 mph. You must comply with the instructions of the flight crew, this is what the federal aviation regulations say. You have no power. Lose the attitude or stay on the ground.
 
johns624
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Re: 18 Unruly Teenage Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Mon Aug 09, 2021 3:08 pm

Like a few have posted, the whole group wasn't kicked off the original flight. It was a group of 50 and only 18 were kicked off. Once you have been warned several times, the decisive action to kick them off is much less than if it is a first offense.
 
IADCA
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Re: 18 Orthodox Jewish Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Mon Aug 09, 2021 3:13 pm

Revelation wrote:
mcdoogel wrote:
One thing I am noticing is this insane inconsistency with airlines and the mask policy as it pertains to eating. Some United FA asked me to cover my face with a mask between every bite at which point I almost lost my mind. At that point we are at a level of power tripping and virus theater that bewilders me, Either the airplane is safe and the HEPA filters and air circulation can withstand a short lunch or we can stop pretending it is safe and find another solution.

Power trip? You're a passenger on a metal tube hurtling through the air at 600 mph. You must comply with the instructions of the flight crew, this is what the federal aviation regulations say. You have no power. Lose the attitude or stay on the ground.


I think where this intersects with reason is when flight crew are giving a hard time to people who are genuinely trying to comply with the rules, which I've both seen and experienced directly per my post just up-thread. That's the minority of unpleasant interactions I've seen (and I'd point out I think I've seen an unpleasant FA/pax interaction on almost every recent flight I've been on), but it's not a tiny minority.

Everybody is too stressed out right now on flights, and it's getting real ugly. I've sat next to deadheading crew members who are pretty much at their wits' end.
 
SurlyBonds
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Re: 18 Orthodox Jewish Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Mon Aug 09, 2021 3:19 pm

eurotrader85 wrote:
This 100%. I actually find it pathetic that Business Insider (whom I normally look at as providing insightful journalism) has pushed this ridiculous idea of anti-semitism at play in order for as you say, clickbait. As everyone has said, they were clearly breaking the rules on multiple occasions, warned, and eventually kicked off. Fair play to the airlines.


If "Da Rulez" are discriminatory or are only enforced against a particular racial or religious group, it is absolutely NOT fair play. Here, we have a group of ultra-Orthodox teenage girls. According to the article, KL refuses to provide kosher meals (which is incredibly surprising, but I'll assume the article is right. Moreover, I have not heard of airlines requiring passengers to refrain from snacking during Covid. It is certainly not being widely enforced. Moreover, the idea that the virus will not spread during "designated mealtimes" but not at other times defies any rational basis.

I suspect that, in the light most favorable to KL/DL, the crew was concerned that these girls were unvaccinated, since some may be below 16 and there is vaccine hesitancy within the ultra-orthodox community. However, anti-semitism certainly is a possibility.
 
Western727
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Re: 18 Orthodox Jewish Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Mon Aug 09, 2021 3:28 pm

SurlyBonds wrote:
I suspect that, in the light most favorable to KL/DL, the crew was concerned that these girls were unvaccinated, since some may be below 16 and there is vaccine hesitancy within the ultra-orthodox community. However, anti-semitism certainly is a possibility.


Anti-semitism I agree is a possibility. I would like to speculate on another: ultra-conservative or orthodox "anything". In this age of growing gender equality (among other forms of equality), I can see these ultra-conservative/orthodox religions being called out more and more for their increasingly outdated views.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: 18 Orthodox Jewish Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Mon Aug 09, 2021 3:29 pm

SurlyBonds wrote:
However, anti-semitism certainly is a possibility.


No evidence of that aspect at all in this story - especially as evidenced by the majority of the group completing their trip.
 
johns624
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Re: 18 Orthodox Jewish Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Mon Aug 09, 2021 3:37 pm

SurlyBonds wrote:
eurotrader85 wrote:
This 100%. I actually find it pathetic that Business Insider (whom I normally look at as providing insightful journalism) has pushed this ridiculous idea of anti-semitism at play in order for as you say, clickbait. As everyone has said, they were clearly breaking the rules on multiple occasions, warned, and eventually kicked off. Fair play to the airlines.


If "Da Rulez" are discriminatory or are only enforced against a particular racial or religious group, it is absolutely NOT fair play. Here, we have a group of ultra-Orthodox teenage girls. According to the article, KL refuses to provide kosher meals (which is incredibly surprising, but I'll assume the article is right. Moreover, I have not heard of airlines requiring passengers to refrain from snacking during Covid. It is certainly not being widely enforced. Moreover, the idea that the virus will not spread during "designated mealtimes" but not at other times defies any rational basis.

I suspect that, in the light most favorable to KL/DL, the crew was concerned that these girls were unvaccinated, since some may be below 16 and there is vaccine hesitancy within the ultra-orthodox community. However, anti-semitism certainly is a possibility.
Did you miss the part where their original "sin" was walking around the cabin while not wearing masks? When you've already caused problems several times, the "straw that broke the camel's back" is something that wouldn't even cause someone to bat an eye as an original transgression.
Kiev-AMS is only 1100 miles. Meal service probably not provided on such a short flight.
 
pjc747
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Re: 18 Unruly Teenage Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Mon Aug 09, 2021 3:38 pm

Is nobody going to point out how completely stupid it is that this rule exists?
 
IADCA
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Re: 18 Unruly Teenage Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Mon Aug 09, 2021 3:40 pm

pjc747 wrote:
Is nobody going to point out how completely stupid it is that this rule exists?


I mean, you just did, but it's not really relevant. When you buy a ticket, you're accepting a contract with all the stupid rules that it does or doesn't include.
 
N1120A
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Re: 18 Unruly Teenage Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Mon Aug 09, 2021 3:43 pm

Is blatant anti-semitism a possibility? Almost certainly not. Is some latent anti-semitism a possibility? It is a statistically significant, though likely not major, possibility. It would be latent if the crew took issue with them bringing non-catered food on board and didn't pay attention to the fact that the airline was not catering KSMLs on this flight sector and that failing to allow them to bring and eat their own food would actually constitute discrimination.

That said, based on the reporting, it seems that KLM have a policy of only allowing eating at meal times. While the scientific basis for this might be questionable, it isn't completely unreasonable. If this was communicated in English, which I'm sure KLM would have done, there was absolutely no reason for them to be eating outside this time, unless some health condition (diabetes, whatever) necessitated something else. That is not a discriminatory policy.

Further, still, it seems that the real reason they were admonished repeatedly and ultimately banned is because they were walking around the aircraft without masks, which is a violation of the law of nearly every country and/or airline policy on earth right now. That is just not acceptable.
 
filLPA
Posts: 28
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Re: 18 Orthodox Jewish Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Mon Aug 09, 2021 3:51 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
Dumb question time: what are the mask rules vis a vis eating and drinking in Europe? In the States, passengers may remove their masks to eat and drink at any time during flight. That seems to me at least marginally safer than everyone removing their masks simultaneously at "designated meal times."



Here’s what BINTER AIRLINES (NT) does:

Interisland flights: no food or drinks……….and “masks on” the entire flight….. during the summer months you will get a packed cookie while disembarking at your destination.

Longer domestic and international flights: masks on during the entire flight, then during meal service the FA’s will serve every other row and you will get around 20-30min to take your mask off and eat and drink. Meanwhile the other rows maintain their masks on. Once the served rows have finished eating, the FA’s start to serve the other rows.

BTW if you want to use the lavatory, you will need to inform a FA and wait at your seat until the WC is available.
 
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Revelation
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Re: 18 Orthodox Jewish Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Mon Aug 09, 2021 6:15 pm

IADCA wrote:
Revelation wrote:
mcdoogel wrote:
One thing I am noticing is this insane inconsistency with airlines and the mask policy as it pertains to eating. Some United FA asked me to cover my face with a mask between every bite at which point I almost lost my mind. At that point we are at a level of power tripping and virus theater that bewilders me, Either the airplane is safe and the HEPA filters and air circulation can withstand a short lunch or we can stop pretending it is safe and find another solution.

Power trip? You're a passenger on a metal tube hurtling through the air at 600 mph. You must comply with the instructions of the flight crew, this is what the federal aviation regulations say. You have no power. Lose the attitude or stay on the ground.

I think where this intersects with reason is when flight crew are giving a hard time to people who are genuinely trying to comply with the rules, which I've both seen and experienced directly per my post just up-thread. That's the minority of unpleasant interactions I've seen (and I'd point out I think I've seen an unpleasant FA/pax interaction on almost every recent flight I've been on), but it's not a tiny minority.

Everybody is too stressed out right now on flights, and it's getting real ugly. I've sat next to deadheading crew members who are pretty much at their wits' end.

There are 50 pax per FA, I doubt they have time to determine the degree to which each pax is trying to comply, nor debate the intent behind the rules nor their effectiveness each time they see a pax not wearing the mask.
 
ACDC8
Posts: 8032
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Re: 18 Orthodox Jewish Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Mon Aug 09, 2021 7:08 pm

Revelation wrote:
Lose the attitude or stay on the ground.

Ya either lose the attitude or ya lose the altitude :bigthumbsup:
 
smokeybandit
Posts: 1612
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:24 pm

Re: 18 Unruly Teenage Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Mon Aug 09, 2021 7:58 pm

Designated meal time? So instead of people having masks off here and there throughout the flight, you have everyone with their masks off at the same time?

Sounds like brilliant science there.
 
EAARbrat
Posts: 66
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Re: 18 Unruly Teenage Girls barred from boarding a DL Flight

Mon Aug 09, 2021 8:18 pm

Druish Princesses LOL

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