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JoergAtADN
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A321F: Airbus considers new-build freigther program

Mon Aug 09, 2021 10:58 am

Leeham reports, that Airbus is discussing a A321F freighter with customers. Not a conversion like the A321P2F, it's about a new-build freighter.
How competitive could be a NEO or XLR based A321F? Has it the potential to kill the 767 freighter program?

Source (behind paywall): https://leehamnews.com/2021/08/09/exclu ... customers/
 
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Dutchy
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Re: A321F: Airbus considers new-build freigther program

Mon Aug 09, 2021 11:01 am

Interesting. The Boeing 767F and this potential A321F must be aimed at different markets, so I don't think this will kill of 767F program.
 
TriniA340
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Re: A321F: Airbus considers new-build freigther program

Mon Aug 09, 2021 11:14 am

Quote from the article: "Now, LNA can reveal, Airbus is talking with key customers about potentially offering a new-build A321neo freighter."

I was really wondering about this. Seems like a logical step.
 
MileHFL400
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Re: A321F: Airbus considers new-build freigther program

Mon Aug 09, 2021 11:31 am

Is there demand for this program?

You can get second hand 767’s for much cheaper than this I’m sure.

There’s also plenty of feedstock for 738 and 321 conversions.
 
DartHerald
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Re: A321F: Airbus considers new-build freigther program

Mon Aug 09, 2021 11:47 am

MileHFL400 wrote:
Is there demand for this program?

You can get second hand 767’s for much cheaper than this I’m sure.

There’s also plenty of feedstock for 738 and 321 conversions.


Like all markets, there will be a spectrum of potential customers, ranging from those buying used frames for P2F conversions through to those buying new-build freighters. My feelings is that there will some a the latter end who will buy new build frames, and enough of them to make it a worthwhile market for Airbus.
 
Flying-Tiger
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Re: A321F: Airbus considers new-build freigther program

Mon Aug 09, 2021 11:59 am

MileHFL400 wrote:
Is there demand for this program?

You can get second hand 767’s for much cheaper than this I’m sure.

There’s also plenty of feedstock for 738 and 321 conversions.


Talking to key customers implies that at least some seem to be interested to invest time into listening what Airbus has to say.

It´s probably a similar approach as to the A350, though likely even more staight-forward: adding just another version into an already flexible line can only improve your bottom line. Given that the A321 P2F is now developed it shouldn´t be an issue for a quick transfer into the existing line, probably helping to smoothen the post-COVID backlog even further.

Considering that the production run of the 757-200PF was 80 (?) frames for mainly integrators and these start to age out, it may be an interesting value proposition to work with a similar sized (new-production) narrow body as 1:1 replacement for core operations, and to compliment with P2F conversions for non-core ops.
 
Kikko19
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Re: A321F: Airbus considers new-build freigther program

Mon Aug 09, 2021 12:19 pm

There are plenty 757 around. Will it have better performances? By how much?
 
Weatherwatcher1
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Re: A321F: Airbus considers new-build freigther program

Mon Aug 09, 2021 12:21 pm

I believe this would target 757 and 767-200SF replacements, not 767-300Fs. There is a big payload and volume difference between an A321 and 767-300F. You’ll need 1.5 to 2 A321s to cover what a 767-300F can carry.
 
FluidFlow
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Re: A321F: Airbus considers new-build freigther program

Mon Aug 09, 2021 12:44 pm

As I am not that familiar with the cargo market:

How is the frequency vs volume argument in the cargo market? While in the pax market we have a clear shift from low frequency with large aircraft to high frequency with small aircraft is it similar in the cargo market?

If the future shifts towards more frequencies to serve shorter delivery times, a 321F would make sense.
 
SteelChair
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Re: A321F: Airbus considers new-build freigther program

Mon Aug 09, 2021 1:21 pm

Would hope that a potential customer would want tbe NEO version. Why buy 1970s engine technology?

It's the only reasonable alternative to the out of production 757F. But with a wing that is almost 30% smaller it won't be able to carry as much as far. My guess is that like the passenger version it would be able to do 80-90% of the 757 missions.
 
texl1649
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Re: A321F: Airbus considers new-build freigther program

Mon Aug 09, 2021 1:35 pm

What was the last narrow-body, new build freighter that was produced/sold? I know there were combi 737's, but I am not sure if the 757 was ever produced new for UPS etc?
 
Someone83
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Re: A321F: Airbus considers new-build freigther program

Mon Aug 09, 2021 1:43 pm

[*]
texl1649 wrote:
What was the last narrow-body, new build freighter that was produced/sold? I know there were combi 737's, but I am not sure if the 757 was ever produced new for UPS etc?


Guess you still can get the TU-204C?
 
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keesje
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Re: A321F: Airbus considers new-build freigther program

Mon Aug 09, 2021 1:54 pm

I guess the XLR 101 MTOW provides the wing, landing gear and engines for a quiet, efficient 25t+ regional (night) freighter. Of course P2F conversions are an alternative, but many 727, 737, 757, MD80, A310s etc to be replaced, specially when environmental restrictions start weighing in, local communities being vocal and not going away..
 
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Spacepope
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Re: A321F: Airbus considers new-build freigther program

Mon Aug 09, 2021 1:55 pm

texl1649 wrote:
What was the last narrow-body, new build freighter that was produced/sold? I know there were combi 737's, but I am not sure if the 757 was ever produced new for UPS etc?


UPS was the biggest customer for new-build 757 freighters, delivered direct from Boeing.

Fedex's fleet is all conversions.

None are near their life limits in terms of hours or cycles.
 
texl1649
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Re: A321F: Airbus considers new-build freigther program

Mon Aug 09, 2021 1:55 pm

I don't think so. I believe Tupolev wound down production in 2019 (or the year before). Regardless, Tupolev isn't a real player globally in the civil market (meaning outside of Russia).

With the huge fleet of narrow bodies in storage, and freighter conversions on offer for every major suitable design (737, 757, and A320's), I am curious what the market might be for this. Perhaps being able to offer this in conjunction with the A350F though will have some appeal to some large operators long term.
 
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NearMiss
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Re: A321F: Airbus considers new-build freigther program

Mon Aug 09, 2021 2:02 pm

With the worldwide boom in online shopping since last year, I think this is quite a good idea for companies looking to replace older 757esque freighters in 5 to 10 years.
 
flipdewaf
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Re: A321F: Airbus considers new-build freigther program

Mon Aug 09, 2021 2:06 pm

Similar payload range performance for 2xA321F vs 1x767F, seems like it could be compelling but not sure what the purchase price vs fuel burn would be a factor in this. At least ramp space isn’t an issue.

Fred


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MohawkWeekend
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Re: A321F: Airbus considers new-build freigther program

Mon Aug 09, 2021 2:11 pm

texl1649 wrote:
What was the last narrow-body, new build freighter that was produced/sold? I know there were combi 737's, but I am not sure if the 757 was ever produced new for UPS etc?


Weren't the last 25 727-200's built delivered directly to FedEx as freighters? IIRC it was in 1982
Last edited by MohawkWeekend on Mon Aug 09, 2021 2:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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AECM
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Re: A321F: Airbus considers new-build freigther program

Mon Aug 09, 2021 2:11 pm

Assuming the base of the XLR this new Freighter would be a very versatile machine that would comply with the latest noise and polution regulations.
 
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Polot
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Re: A321F: Airbus considers new-build freigther program

Mon Aug 09, 2021 2:15 pm

I’m not so sold on the XLR being the base. Remember that RCT eats up cargo room. I suspect the focus would be on very regional use with MTOW 97-101t depending how high Airbus can get MTOW without RCT.
Last edited by Polot on Mon Aug 09, 2021 2:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Spacepope
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Re: A321F: Airbus considers new-build freigther program

Mon Aug 09, 2021 2:16 pm

AECM wrote:
Assuming the base of the XLR this new Freighter would be a very versatile machine that would comply with the latest noise and polution regulations.


We're not looking at transatlantic narrowbody freighter ops (that's what pax widebody belly freight is for) so the XLR, with its extra tanks in the hold is counterproductive. Look for beefed up structure for highest MTOW but all belly space dedicated to containers. This will be something like an intra-European 752 replacement for DHL.

Inexpensive 738 freighters are going to make this a tough slog, since they can be picked up for a mere fraction of the price.
 
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AECM
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Re: A321F: Airbus considers new-build freigther program

Mon Aug 09, 2021 2:26 pm

When i mentioned the XLR as the base its more regarding the new slat/flap design and the possible engine thrust bump and not so much the RCT.
 
ExMilitaryEng
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Re: A321F: Airbus considers new-build freigther program

Mon Aug 09, 2021 3:03 pm

In the mean time, Airbus wants to increase production rates up to 70/month, while meeting lots of "reservations" from some vendors apparently unable to reach such a rate.

I was under the impression that A319/20/21 production slots were valuable.

Wouldn't selling such a A321F kind of delaying the sale of a very profitable A321neo?
Last edited by ExMilitaryEng on Mon Aug 09, 2021 3:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
JonesNL
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Re: A321F: Airbus considers new-build freigther program

Mon Aug 09, 2021 3:04 pm

AECM wrote:
When i mentioned the XLR as the base its more regarding the new slat/flap design and the possible engine thrust bump and not so much the RCT.

My line of thought as well, keep the MTOW, loose the RCT.
But why would they do this, the A321 line/backlog is already fully booked for many years to come…
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: A321F: Airbus considers new-build freigther program

Mon Aug 09, 2021 3:20 pm

An A321F based on the XLR would have something like 30% better fuel efficiency than the 757F? Just a ballpark guess.

If you buy this freighter and plan to keep it for 20+ years, in a market where fuel prices and taxes are likely only to go up through the years, it might make sense.
 
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JerseyFlyer
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Re: A321F: Airbus considers new-build freigther program

Mon Aug 09, 2021 3:20 pm

If this is based on the XLR's MTOW, and excludes the RCT, plus all the fuel efficiencies of the neo over the ceo, then it will be much more capable than a 321ceo P2F conversion, so not directly competitive with it.

Airbus were planning, pre-covid, for a substantial ramp up of 320neo family production, so they do have potential headroom for another version on the production lines.
 
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Taxi645
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Re: A321F: Airbus considers new-build freigther program

Mon Aug 09, 2021 3:39 pm

ExMilitaryEng wrote:
In the mean time, Airbus wants to increase production rates up to 70/month, while meeting lots of "reservations" from some vendors apparently unable to reach such a rate.

I was under the impression that A319/20/21 production slots were valuable.

Wouldn't selling such a A321F kind of delaying the sale of a very profitable A321neo?


If at a certain point a A220-500 would be launched and a certain amount of A320 slots would be converted to A220-500 then higher margin slots on the A320 lines would become available. Higher production cost of the A220 would offset the higher margin but Airbus would gain market share in yet another sector in the meantime.
 
VV
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Re: A321F: Airbus considers new-build freigther program

Mon Aug 09, 2021 3:52 pm

It looks like Airbus is taking the freighter market very seriously.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: A321F: Airbus considers new-build freigther program

Mon Aug 09, 2021 4:34 pm

Spacepope wrote:
Fedex's fleet is all conversions.
None are near their life limits in terms of hours or cycles.

Currently.

But in the years that an A321NF/SF comes to fruition, they'll likely be significant candidates.
 
JoergAtADN
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Re: A321F: Airbus considers new-build freigther program

Mon Aug 09, 2021 5:41 pm

keesje wrote:
I guess the XLR 101 MTOW provides the wing, landing gear and engines for a quiet, efficient 25t+ regional (night) freighter.


For this payload/range you don't need an XLR. This can be done already by the converted A321CEOs: https://www.elbeflugzeugwerke.com/filea ... Screen.pdf
Image

The A321XLR has about 8t higher MTOW and the NEO engines consumes 15% less fuel than the A321P2F. Additionally a purpose build freighter will have a slightly lower OEW than a converted pasenger jet.
An XLR based freighter would be capable to fly light freight (like DHL, UPS, Fedex or Amazon packages) transatlantic or 35t+ regional.
 
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Spacepope
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Re: A321F: Airbus considers new-build freigther program

Mon Aug 09, 2021 6:17 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
Spacepope wrote:
Fedex's fleet is all conversions.
None are near their life limits in terms of hours or cycles.

Currently.

But in the years that an A321NF/SF comes to fruition, they'll likely be significant candidates.


As will conversions since there is no volume difference in the CEO vs NEO, and FX/UPS will use these on 3-ish hour max stage lengths so MTOW is of little concern.

These new production freighters would be hitting the market as the 757 conversion lines are winding down. By then the only freighter competition of that size will be the 321P2F programs. I don't consider the 738P2F conversions a direct competitor, though some operators may find that size useful depending on how may flights they wish to run them per day.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: A321F: Airbus considers new-build freigther program

Mon Aug 09, 2021 6:38 pm

I wouldn’t be surprised if Airbus has had secret discussions with 5X, FX, and O3 on this, especially FX and O3. If launched, I see it being XLR-based. Also, what about the possibility of an A321neo-based combi?
 
FlapOperator
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Re: A321F: Airbus considers new-build freigther program

Mon Aug 09, 2021 6:47 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
I wouldn’t be surprised if Airbus has had secret discussions with 5X, FX, and O3 on this, especially FX and O3. If launched, I see it being XLR-based. Also, what about the possibility of an A321neo-based combi?


Who needs a Combi?

FDX and UPS makes lots of sense though. The FX 75 fleet is the second oldest on average.

Honestly, a 321F makes more sense than a 350F, but that's just me. I know that ignores what Airbus needs to do keep WBs rolling out the door.
 
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Polot
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Re: A321F: Airbus considers new-build freigther program

Mon Aug 09, 2021 6:48 pm

JoergAtADN wrote:
keesje wrote:
I guess the XLR 101 MTOW provides the wing, landing gear and engines for a quiet, efficient 25t+ regional (night) freighter.


For this payload/range you don't need an XLR. This can be done already by the converted A321CEOs: https://www.elbeflugzeugwerke.com/filea ... Screen.pdf
Image

The A321XLR has about 8t higher MTOW and the NEO engines consumes 15% less fuel than the A321P2F. Additionally a purpose build freighter will have a slightly lower OEW than a converted pasenger jet.
An XLR based freighter would be capable to fly light freight (like DHL, UPS, Fedex or Amazon packages) transatlantic or 35t+ regional.

Even with higher MTOW and more fuel efficient engines I think expecting reliable TATL out of a A321F is a bit optimistic.

Those ranges are absolute best scenario likely using the most capable CEO frames around. A new build A321F is not going to suddenly gain 1500+ nm of range.
 
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Revelation
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Re: A321F: Airbus considers new-build freigther program

Mon Aug 09, 2021 7:42 pm

Spacepope wrote:
texl1649 wrote:
What was the last narrow-body, new build freighter that was produced/sold? I know there were combi 737's, but I am not sure if the 757 was ever produced new for UPS etc?


UPS was the biggest customer for new-build 757 freighters, delivered direct from Boeing.

Fedex's fleet is all conversions.

None are near their life limits in terms of hours or cycles.

It seems it'll be a similar discussion to A350F: will there be enough orders out there for it to be profitable, or will Airbus decide they want to make a strategic move and launch a freighter just to get their foot into the door?

There will be lots of A321ceo available for conversion just as this could enter the market, seems they won't be able to charge premium prices for NEOs.
 
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reidar76
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Re: A321F: Airbus considers new-build freigther program

Mon Aug 09, 2021 7:49 pm

Polot wrote:
A new build A321F is not going to suddenly gain 1500+ nm of range.


The main difference in performance between an A321P2F and a new build A321F would be range?

A321P2F: MTOW 89t or 93t
A321neoF: MTOW 101t

I can't imagine maximum structural payload being significantly higher for the new build A321F. With efficient neo-engines and MTOW that allows lots of fuel to be carried even at maximum payload, the A321neoF could very well have 1500nm more range at same payload.
Last edited by reidar76 on Mon Aug 09, 2021 7:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: A321F: Airbus considers new-build freigther program

Mon Aug 09, 2021 8:12 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
An A321F based on the XLR would have something like 30% better fuel efficiency than the 757F? Just a ballpark guess.

If you buy this freighter and plan to keep it for 20+ years, in a market where fuel prices and taxes are likely only to go up through the years, it might make sense.


One can pretty safely presume that taxes on aviation fuel will go up. Getting to carbon neutrality fairly demands it.

Non-tax fuel prices over 20 years? Not a safe bet. Nobody knows what fossil fuel energy prices are going to be 10-20 years from now. Look at the tens of $ Billions of oil and gas write-offs in the last decade. Even experts playing with their own money have lost big over the long term.

$145 Billion in write-downs last year at U.S. and European oil and gas companies. https://www.wsj.com/articles/2020-was-o ... 1609077600

Just like buying a 321neo versus running 20-year old 738s, it comes down to fuel price projections, maintenance, acquisition cost and expected utilization.
 
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JerseyFlyer
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Re: A321F: Airbus considers new-build freigther program

Mon Aug 09, 2021 8:50 pm

There would be some synergies in running A350F and A321F side by side. How significant? I don't know, but if sufficient I could see QR launching both - subject to resolution of the (non) paint issues
 
texl1649
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Re: A321F: Airbus considers new-build freigther program

Mon Aug 09, 2021 8:56 pm

Are there certification differences for freighters, vs. PAX, regarding limits that might benefit a more 'Max10' runway performance for a freighter A321? I would think this could enable the 321 to possibly carry more than the P2F variants.

Fedex, UPS etc. know this stuff...really well. Paper de-rates etc. is something Airbus has done quite well at over the years.
 
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Spacepope
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Re: A321F: Airbus considers new-build freigther program

Mon Aug 09, 2021 9:24 pm

texl1649 wrote:
Are there certification differences for freighters, vs. PAX, regarding limits that might benefit a more 'Max10' runway performance for a freighter A321? I would think this could enable the 321 to possibly carry more than the P2F variants.

Fedex, UPS etc. know this stuff...really well. Paper de-rates etc. is something Airbus has done quite well at over the years.


I'd imagine the pavement loading would be something to behold. Time to dust off the blueprints for the old bogie maingears.
 
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keesje
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Re: A321F: Airbus considers new-build freigther program

Tue Aug 10, 2021 8:25 am

Polot wrote:
JoergAtADN wrote:
keesje wrote:
I guess the XLR 101 MTOW provides the wing, landing gear and engines for a quiet, efficient 25t+ regional (night) freighter.


For this payload/range you don't need an XLR. This can be done already by the converted A321CEOs: https://www.elbeflugzeugwerke.com/filea ... Screen.pdf
Image

The A321XLR has about 8t higher MTOW and the NEO engines consumes 15% less fuel than the A321P2F. Additionally a purpose build freighter will have a slightly lower OEW than a converted pasenger jet.
An XLR based freighter would be capable to fly light freight (like DHL, UPS, Fedex or Amazon packages) transatlantic or 35t+ regional.

Even with higher MTOW and more fuel efficient engines I think expecting reliable TATL out of a A321F is a bit optimistic.

Those ranges are absolute best scenario likely using the most capable CEO frames around. A new build A321F is not going to suddenly gain 1500+ nm of range.


I guess a NB freighter would mainly be used regionally. Looking at payload, MLW, maximum landing weight plays a role. The XLR's MLW probably isn't much higher than the NEO's MLW.

The XLR's MTOW bump was used to provide bigger range, higher fuel capacity. While the XLR's beefed up landing gear, wings provide room for a slightly higher MLW, 35t seems on the high site. 27t seems more realistic. An aircraft can dump fuel before landing to reach MLW, not cargo.

It's probably practical to keep the XLR fuel system, because it is an integral part of the XLR's MTOW certification and provides long term range flexibility. With the main cargo deck the lower deck cargo capacity probably won't be critical.
 
HugoJunkers
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Re: A321F: Airbus considers new-build freigther program

Tue Aug 10, 2021 9:05 am

flipdewaf wrote:
Similar payload range performance for 2xA321F vs 1x767F, seems like it could be compelling but not sure what the purchase price vs fuel burn would be a factor in this. At least ramp space isn’t an issue.

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



There are two aspects of this
1 By the end of 2017 it will no longer possible to sell an B767 or even B777F under the ICAO emissions rules.
2 The ICAO CORSIA "Carbon Offsetting and Reduction Scheme for International Aviation" rules require operators to wind back global emissions to 2019 levels either by flying more efficient aircraft or using more expensive SAF fuel or Carbon Offsets. It will cost. the airfreight companies dearly to operate old types. The same applies to passenger airlines.
3 The EU is applying the ICAO rules. It'll be compulsory in most important jurisdictions.

This many end the tendency to rely on aging freighters either P2F conversions or designs like the B767 at the end of design life. This is one reason the A350F is of such interest and I suspect the A321F based on the neo airframe.

It's clear that the technology Airbus developed for the A321LR and A321XLR to increase MTOW and MZOW when applied without the permanent RCT tank will create a freighter of considerable flexibility.
 
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zeke
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Re: A321F: Airbus considers new-build freigther program

Tue Aug 10, 2021 9:25 am

JoergAtADN wrote:
Leeham reports, that Airbus is discussing a A321F freighter with customers. Not a conversion like the A321P2F, it's about a new-build freighter.
How competitive could be a NEO or XLR based A321F? Has it the potential to kill the 767 freighter program?

Source (behind paywall): https://leehamnews.com/2021/08/09/exclu ... customers/


I think this is all aimed at the 2028 emissions requirements, Airbus will have the A320NEO, A330NEO, and A350 based freighters available to the market providing compliant that no conversion can provide.
 
HugoJunkers
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Re: A321F: Airbus considers new-build freigther program

Tue Aug 10, 2021 9:47 am

keesje wrote:
Polot wrote:
JoergAtADN wrote:

For this payload/range you don't need an XLR. This can be done already by the converted A321CEOs: https://www.elbeflugzeugwerke.com/filea ... Screen.pdf
Image

The A321XLR has about 8t higher MTOW and the NEO engines consumes 15% less fuel than the A321P2F. Additionally a purpose build freighter will have a slightly lower OEW than a converted pasenger jet.
An XLR based freighter would be capable to fly light freight (like DHL, UPS, Fedex or Amazon packages) transatlantic or 35t+ regional.

Even with higher MTOW and more fuel efficient engines I think expecting reliable TATL out of a A321F is a bit optimistic.

Those ranges are absolute best scenario likely using the most capable CEO frames around. A new build A321F is not going to suddenly gain 1500+ nm of range.


I guess a NB freighter would mainly be used regionally. Looking at payload, MLW, maximum landing weight plays a role. The XLR's MLW probably isn't much higher than the NEO's MLW.

The XLR's MTOW bump was used to provide bigger range, higher fuel capacity. While the XLR's beefed up landing gear, wings provide room for a slightly higher MLW, 35t seems on the high site. 27t seems more realistic. An aircraft can dump fuel before landing to reach MLW, not cargo.

It's probably practical to keep the XLR fuel system, because it is an integral part of the XLR's MTOW certification and provides long term range flexibility. With the main cargo deck the lower deck cargo capacity probably won't be critical.



The A321XLR introduces a number of technologies to increase the MTOW and MLW
1 An optimised single slotted flap more effective than the double slotted flap of the standard A321neo and A321LR
2 Further Undercarriage strengthening and more powerful brakes
3 The RCT the permanent integral Rear Centre Tank.

Airbus has stated that it is considering installing the optimised single slotted flap of the A321XLR into ordinary A321neo/LR and the A320 which has a single slotted flap of lessor ability.

Airbus thus could provide a new build freighter version of the A321XLR (in which case there would be only room for 8 LD-3/46 unit load devices underfloor or it could apply the technologies of the A321XLR to the A321neo/LR so that the full 10 underfloor Unit load device could be carried.
 
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Re: A321F: Airbus considers new-build freigther program

Tue Aug 10, 2021 10:05 am

zeke wrote:
I think this is all aimed at the 2028 emissions requirements, Airbus will have the A320NEO, A330NEO, and A350 based freighters available to the market providing compliant that no conversion can provide.


The 2027 emission requirements are for new build aircraft only, not for conversions.
But when airlines need to buy expensive carbon neutral jet fuel, it might be cheaper to buy a new more efficient aircraft, than paying for the fuel.
 
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Polot
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Re: A321F: Airbus considers new-build freigther program

Tue Aug 10, 2021 10:27 am

keesje wrote:
It's probably practical to keep the XLR fuel system, because it is an integral part of the XLR's MTOW certification and provides long term range flexibility. With the main cargo deck the lower deck cargo capacity probably won't be critical.

Cargo airlines are very much using the lower deck cargo hold of their narrow body freighters.
 
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zeke
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Re: A321F: Airbus considers new-build freigther program

Tue Aug 10, 2021 10:41 am

JoergAtADN wrote:

The 2027 emission requirements are for new build aircraft only, not for conversions.
But when airlines need to buy expensive carbon neutral jet fuel, it might be cheaper to buy a new more efficient aircraft, than paying for the fuel.


Simply not true, airports are implementing stricter requirements all the time, many already have noise curfews and quotas which conversions are unable to meet. Others charge very high fees for older aircraft to discourage them (eg AMS). There are also production freighters like the 744ERF which are already being restricted by airports as to when they can operate.

Airlines that in the business know this as a fact.
 
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flee
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Re: A321F: Airbus considers new-build freigther program

Tue Aug 10, 2021 10:54 am

zeke wrote:
JoergAtADN wrote:
The 2027 emission requirements are for new build aircraft only, not for conversions.
But when airlines need to buy expensive carbon neutral jet fuel, it might be cheaper to buy a new more efficient aircraft, than paying for the fuel.


Simply not true, airports are implementing stricter requirements all the time, many already have noise curfews and quotas which conversions are unable to meet. Others charge very high fees for older aircraft to discourage them (eg AMS). There are also production freighters like the 744ERF which are already being restricted by airports as to when they can operate.

Airlines that in the business know this as a fact.

Would this added CAPEX mean that dedicated freighters will decline in numbers while more cargo is carried in pax flights? That might mean only heavy or outsize cargo need dedicated freighters.
 
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zeke
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Re: A321F: Airbus considers new-build freigther program

Tue Aug 10, 2021 11:29 am

flee wrote:
Would this added CAPEX mean that dedicated freighters will decline in numbers while more cargo is carried in pax flights? That might mean only heavy or outsize cargo need dedicated freighters.


Before COVID the majority of airfreight was already carried as belly cargo.

https://www.joc.com/air-cargo/travel-re ... 00728.html
 
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lightsaber
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Re: A321F: Airbus considers new-build freigther program

Tue Aug 10, 2021 12:19 pm

reidar76 wrote:
Polot wrote:
A new build A321F is not going to suddenly gain 1500+ nm of range.


The main difference in performance between an A321P2F and a new build A321F would be range?

A321P2F: MTOW 89t or 93t
A321neoF: MTOW 101t

I can't imagine maximum structural payload being significantly higher for the new build A321F. With efficient neo-engines and MTOW that allows lots of fuel to be carried even at maximum payload, the A321neoF could very well have 1500nm more range at same payload.

While most of the MTOW increase would be the NEO engines, I see the advantages being:
,1. NEO fuel burn and maintenance. This helps higher utilization economics.
2. Improved payload at range. A freighter cuts into potential fuel load due to the weight of payload.
3. Small increase in payload. A factory freighter should be lighter if there is some custom structure than a P2F.


My gut feeling is this will work out well enough to have a business case. I also feel the 757F is at risk, not the much more capable 767F. Oh, some substitution will happen, not a huge deal.

Lightsaber

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