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brindabella
Posts: 746
Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2010 10:38 am

Re: A321F: Airbus considers new-build freigther program

Tue Aug 10, 2021 12:26 pm

FluidFlow wrote:
As I am not that familiar with the cargo market:

How is the frequency vs volume argument in the cargo market? While in the pax market we have a clear shift from low frequency with large aircraft to high frequency with small aircraft is it similar in the cargo market?

If the future shifts towards more frequencies to serve shorter delivery times, a 321F would make sense.


"As I am not that familiar with the cargo market:".
:
Me too.

But I wonder if, in a big market, AM and PM services with 737-800NGP2F would not offer:

Better customer service.
More flexibility in low/high seasons, and
Not much more cost.

But in either case, a $$$$ new A321neoF would be - probably - struggling to compete.

cheers
 
brindabella
Posts: 746
Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2010 10:38 am

Re: A321F: Airbus considers new-build freigther program

Tue Aug 10, 2021 12:36 pm

[quote="SteelChair"]Would hope that a potential customer would want tbe NEO version. Why buy 1970s engine technology?

It's the only reasonable alternative to the out of production 757F. But with a wing that is almost 30% smaller it won't be able to carry as much as far. My guess is that like the passenger version it would be able to do 80-90% of the 757 missions.[/quote

Seems like the freight market really doesn't work like that. :shakehead:

Look at the DC10F/MD11F success story.
Or the steady delivery of brand-new 767F frames with "good old" CF6s, etc ...
Not to mention the US market seemingly snapping-up all the used 767s that it can discover.

cheers
 
smokeybandit
Posts: 1593
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Re: A321F: Airbus considers new-build freigther program

Tue Aug 10, 2021 1:44 pm

Does saying that you're "talking to key customers" merely equate to trying to generate some PR buzz about the concept, and not a hint that key customers are actually serious? "Hey if we're talking to our key customers about this, then maybe you should be interested, too!"
 
rbavfan
Posts: 3864
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

Re: A321F: Airbus considers new-build freigther program

Tue Aug 10, 2021 5:07 pm

texl1649 wrote:
What was the last narrow-body, new build freighter that was produced/sold? I know there were combi 737's, but I am not sure if the 757 was ever produced new for UPS etc?

The 757
 
Rekoff
Posts: 48
Joined: Tue May 18, 2021 7:15 pm

Re: A321F: Airbus considers new-build freigther program

Tue Aug 10, 2021 6:02 pm

JoergAtADN wrote:
zeke wrote:
I think this is all aimed at the 2028 emissions requirements, Airbus will have the A320NEO, A330NEO, and A350 based freighters available to the market providing compliant that no conversion can provide.


The 2027 emission requirements are for new build aircraft only, not for conversions.
But when airlines need to buy expensive carbon neutral jet fuel, it might be cheaper to buy a new more efficient aircraft, than paying for the fuel.


What I've understood, partly based on zeke's comments in the 350F thread, is that after 2027 only local conversions would be possible that wouldnt need a new certificate of airworthiness, but I could be wrong.
 
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zeke
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Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: A321F: Airbus considers new-build freigther program

Tue Aug 10, 2021 6:39 pm

Rekoff wrote:
What I've understood, partly based on zeke's comments in the 350F thread, is that after 2027 only local conversions would be possible that wouldnt need a new certificate of airworthiness, but I could be wrong.


The rules are not hard and fast for every country, generally there will be grandfathered rights for existing aircraft, however new aircraft to the register generally have to meet the new rules. The conversion we were talking about there was the 77WP2F, that STC as far as I am aware will initially only be granted by the FAA, it will then need to get approval from EASA. It would not make it easy for a European carrier to operate that aircraft for some time.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 2459
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: A321F: Airbus considers new-build freigther program

Tue Aug 10, 2021 9:22 pm

Rekoff wrote:
JoergAtADN wrote:
zeke wrote:
I think this is all aimed at the 2028 emissions requirements, Airbus will have the A320NEO, A330NEO, and A350 based freighters available to the market providing compliant that no conversion can provide.


The 2027 emission requirements are for new build aircraft only, not for conversions.
But when airlines need to buy expensive carbon neutral jet fuel, it might be cheaper to buy a new more efficient aircraft, than paying for the fuel.


What I've understood, partly based on zeke's comments in the 350F thread, is that after 2027 only local conversions would be possible that wouldnt need a new certificate of airworthiness, but I could be wrong.

Conversions are usually covered by STCs; and those will not touch the engines, thus grandfathering the existing certification on that part.
 
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zeke
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Re: A321F: Airbus considers new-build freigther program

Wed Aug 11, 2021 1:53 am

WayexTDI wrote:
Conversions are usually covered by STCs; and those will not touch the engines, thus grandfathering the existing certification on that part.


3rd party STCs do have to consider the interaction of the change with the engine/propellor, there will be a formal statement in document on that. STCs are only applicable to the underlying TCDS, that means if the aircraft is registered in Europe, and it’s TCDS basis is the EASA TCDS, and STC developed for the FAA TCDS cannot be automatically applied. The STC needs to gain EASA approval to modify the EASA TCDS. The problem with 3rd party conversions is they do not have the underlying structural and systems models made by the manufacture, it is reverse engineered.

With a factory built freighter, the aircraft will be produced under a production certificate, the freighter could either be an STC or a modification. The aircraft is produced with the full underlying structural and systems known.
 
LCDFlight
Posts: 1271
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:22 pm

Re: A321F: Airbus considers new-build freigther program

Wed Aug 11, 2021 2:04 am

Generally new build freighters only really pay on >10 hr per day utilization. I am not sure many narrowbody freighters achieve this.

So, any A321 NEO built should probably be passenger configured. Let them convert old B738 or A321 to freighter instead of allocating new builds. It is illogical to put new builds into low utilization jobs.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 2459
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Re: A321F: Airbus considers new-build freigther program

Wed Aug 11, 2021 2:50 am

zeke wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Conversions are usually covered by STCs; and those will not touch the engines, thus grandfathering the existing certification on that part.


3rd party STCs do have to consider the interaction of the change with the engine/propellor, there will be a formal statement in document on that. STCs are only applicable to the underlying TCDS, that means if the aircraft is registered in Europe, and it’s TCDS basis is the EASA TCDS, and STC developed for the FAA TCDS cannot be automatically applied. The STC needs to gain EASA approval to modify the EASA TCDS. The problem with 3rd party conversions is they do not have the underlying structural and systems models made by the manufacture, it is reverse engineered.

With a factory built freighter, the aircraft will be produced under a production certificate, the freighter could either be an STC or a modification. The aircraft is produced with the full underlying structural and systems known.

But this in no way changes the engines themselves, nor their certifications; so, that portion of the P2F program is grandfathered in (via the type certificate, TC), the freighter conversion in itself being the "supplementary" portion of the STC.
 
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zeke
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Re: A321F: Airbus considers new-build freigther program

Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:38 am

WayexTDI wrote:
But this in no way changes the engines themselves, nor their certifications; so, that portion of the P2F program is grandfathered in (via the type certificate, TC), the freighter conversion in itself being the "supplementary" portion of the STC.


Only if the aircraft is already registered in that configuration, as soon as it gets registered in another country the process starts all over again.
 
JoergAtADN
Topic Author
Posts: 88
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:01 pm

Re: A321F: Airbus considers new-build freigther program

Wed Aug 11, 2021 9:41 am

Re-engining the 767 is mandadory to comply with the emission rules valid from 2027 onward.
The question is, if the smaller A321XLR and A321F leave the 767 enough market share, to soley finance the development of a new engine. No other commercial aircraft needs an engine in this thrust range, while the A321F can use the existing NEO engines.
 
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Polot
Posts: 12218
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: A321F: Airbus considers new-build freigther program

Wed Aug 11, 2021 10:37 am

In 2027 there will likely not be many 767 conversions anyways. By then most of the existing suitable feedstock would have been converted and what is left will likely be better suited for parts than service.
 
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flee
Posts: 1485
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:14 am

Re: A321F: Airbus considers new-build freigther program

Wed Aug 11, 2021 11:09 am

JoergAtADN wrote:
Re-engining the 767 is mandadory to comply with the emission rules valid from 2027 onward.
The question is, if the smaller A321XLR and A321F leave the 767 enough market share, to soley finance the development of a new engine. No other commercial aircraft needs an engine in this thrust range, while the A321F can use the existing NEO engines.

I think any B767 re-engining will only be done if the B787 gets an updated one. That way, the costs will be more manageable.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 2459
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: A321F: Airbus considers new-build freigther program

Wed Aug 11, 2021 2:06 pm

Polot wrote:
In 2027 there will likely not be many 767 conversions anyways. By then most of the existing suitable feedstock would have been converted and what is left will likely be better suited for parts than service.

It doesn't matter since the 2027 dead-line only applies to newly produced aircraft.

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