Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
CMHARJ
Topic Author
Posts: 78
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2007 1:28 am

DL BOS hub

Tue Aug 10, 2021 4:42 pm

I understand that DL now considers BOS and SEA their costal hubs. DL has built up SEA considering if was just a small transpacific gateway and flights strictly to the spokes. When I look at BOS, I don't see it as a hub per say. Yes, it has a handful of transatlantic flights, along with the regular high frequencies to the hubs, especially ATL. But I really don't see much spoke action. It has 4 flights a day to RDU, which is a "new" focus city and 1 flight to AUS, which DL considers a "focus city", which is another separate topic on its own. I think DL dragged its feet too long and AA and other airlines took stake in AUS. The only other spoke cities I see DL fly to from BOS are CMH, IND. MCI, and PIT, which were all considered "S" cities from NW lingo. My understand of a definition of hub would be banked arrival/departures and multiple spoke cities serviced, not just the hubs. Maybe I'm looking too much into this.
Last edited by SQ22 on Tue Aug 10, 2021 6:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: All caps
 
jbs2886
Posts: 3396
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: DL BOS HUB

Tue Aug 10, 2021 4:47 pm

CMHARJ wrote:
I understand that DL now considers BOS and SEA their costal hubs. DL has built up SEA considering if was just a small transpacific gateway and flights strictly to the spokes. When I look at BOS, I don't see it as a hub per say. Yes, it has a handful of transatlantic flights, along with the regular high frequencies to the hubs, especially ATL. But I really don't see much spoke action. It has 4 flights a day to RDU, which is a "new" focus city and 1 flight to AUS, which DL considers a "focus city", which is another separate topic on its own. I think DL dragged its feet too long and AA and other airlines took stake in AUS. The only other spoke cities I see DL fly to from BOS are CMH, IND. MCI, and PIT, which were all considered "S" cities from NW lingo. My understand of a definition of hub would be banked arrival/departures and multiple spoke cities serviced, not just the hubs. Maybe I'm looking too much into this.


What you are doing, as what many on a.net do, is take your own preconceived definition of a "hub" and tell DL they are wrong and can't use the term. DL considers it a hub - conversation over.

Regardless, your facts are wrong. CLT, DFW and YYZ are not S cities. https://news.delta.com/delta-expands-bo ... stinations. Are AUA, MBJ, NAS, PUJ, STT, PLS, too? https://thepointsguy.com/news/delta-air ... om-boston/ Furthermore, diminishing the importance a number of TATL is shortsighted. These are just a few points.
 
ncflyer
Posts: 1441
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 7:03 pm

Re: DL BOS HUB

Tue Aug 10, 2021 4:54 pm

CLE PHL DFW RIC Florida cities, the list goes on. Unless Wikipedia is way off
 
jb1087xna
Posts: 557
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2014 2:11 am

Re: DL BOS HUB

Tue Aug 10, 2021 5:29 pm

These cities are getting DL from BOS today:
(I went ahead and threw all cities in.)

Domestic:
DTW
ATL
SLC
JFK
LGA
AUS
SEA
TPA
CVG
MCO
RDU
MIA
FLL
ORD
DCA
LAX
MSP
DFW
LAS
RIC
BNA
PIT
CHS
JAX
MCI
CMH
IND
CLE
BGR

International:
FCO
KEF

Apologize if I missed any. This is what was showing on FR24.
 
atrude777
Posts: 4497
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 11:23 pm

Re: DL BOS HUB

Tue Aug 10, 2021 5:34 pm

In addition, Delta announced earlier to strengthen their connection with Cape Air for the BOS Hub for both DL and Cape Air...providing more connections and offering DL Sky Miles when booked through Delta.

https://news.delta.com/delta-strengthen ... rtheast-us

Alex
 
TWFlyGuy
Posts: 466
Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:10 pm

Re: DL BOS HUB

Tue Aug 10, 2021 5:44 pm

jb1087xna wrote:
These cities are getting DL from BOS today:
(I went ahead and threw all cities in.)

Domestic:
DTW
ATL
SLC
JFK
LGA
AUS
SEA
TPA
CVG
MCO
RDU
MIA
FLL
ORD
DCA
LAX
MSP
DFW
LAS
RIC
BNA
PIT
CHS
JAX
MCI
CMH
IND
CLE
BGR

International:
FCO
KEF

Apologize if I missed any. This is what was showing on FR24.


Probably should include LHR &CDG given the partnerships that they work with as well. It's not a giant hub by any means but definitely offers lots of service to a good variety of markets. I think people get too caught up in the ability to offer connections. Given the large local market and geography, connects are not the primary focus.
 
airbazar
Posts: 10466
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

Re: DL BOS HUB

Tue Aug 10, 2021 5:54 pm

CMHARJ wrote:
I understand that DL now considers BOS and SEA their costal hubs. DL has built up SEA considering if was just a small transpacific gateway and flights strictly to the spokes. When I look at BOS, I don't see it as a hub per say. Yes, it has a handful of transatlantic flights, along with the regular high frequencies to the hubs, especially ATL. But I really don't see much spoke action.

Humm... You have to look at the cities and frequencies that DL had pre-Pandemic as well as their expansion plans. Pre-pandemic these TATL destinations were on the schedule: AMS, LHR, FCO, CDG, LGW, MAN, EDI, LIS, DUB. That's nearly 2 handfulls :D
They also had partners AF, KL, AZ, VS, KE, LA, HA, Cape Air, WS, plus a lot of domestic cities.
 
jbs2886
Posts: 3396
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: DL BOS HUB

Tue Aug 10, 2021 5:54 pm

TWFlyGuy wrote:
jb1087xna wrote:
These cities are getting DL from BOS today:
(I went ahead and threw all cities in.)

Domestic:
DTW
ATL
SLC
JFK
LGA
AUS
SEA
TPA
CVG
MCO
RDU
MIA
FLL
ORD
DCA
LAX
MSP
DFW
LAS
RIC
BNA
PIT
CHS
JAX
MCI
CMH
IND
CLE
BGR

International:
FCO
KEF

Apologize if I missed any. This is what was showing on FR24.


Probably should include LHR &CDG given the partnerships that they work with as well. It's not a giant hub by any means but definitely offers lots of service to a good variety of markets. I think people get too caught up in the ability to offer connections. Given the large local market and geography, connects are not the primary focus.


And AMS. IIRC DL actually has its own metal on LHR, CDG, and/or AMS (one or more of those).
 
jb1087xna
Posts: 557
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2014 2:11 am

Re: DL BOS HUB

Tue Aug 10, 2021 6:07 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
TWFlyGuy wrote:
jb1087xna wrote:
These cities are getting DL from BOS today:
(I went ahead and threw all cities in.)

Domestic:
DTW
ATL
SLC
JFK
LGA
AUS
SEA
TPA
CVG
MCO
RDU
MIA
FLL
ORD
DCA
LAX
MSP
DFW
LAS
RIC
BNA
PIT
CHS
JAX
MCI
CMH
IND
CLE
BGR

International:
FCO
KEF

Apologize if I missed any. This is what was showing on FR24.


Probably should include LHR &CDG given the partnerships that they work with as well. It's not a giant hub by any means but definitely offers lots of service to a good variety of markets. I think people get too caught up in the ability to offer connections. Given the large local market and geography, connects are not the primary focus.


And AMS. IIRC DL actually has its own metal on LHR, CDG, and/or AMS (one or more of those).


The partner points are absolutely valid. I just took a look at DL metal for today specifically. Add in all of the non-Tuesday operating flights and then partners and the list just keeps growing.
 
umichman
Posts: 276
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:42 am

Re: DL BOS hub

Tue Aug 10, 2021 6:30 pm

BOS-SFO/PHL/MKE restart on September 13th and BOS-DFW restarts on October 10th (it's listed above, but it's not actually running yet). BOS-CLT also restarts Oct. 10th. ORF is missing from list above. BOS-BUF/YYZ is loaded starting 12/18, but that's start of placeholder schedule and should be considered speculative.
Last edited by umichman on Tue Aug 10, 2021 6:44 pm, edited 10 times in total.
 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 5213
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:30 am

Re: DL BOS hub

Tue Aug 10, 2021 6:30 pm

sky team is pretty strong in Boston.

More Delta is doing what Jetblue has already done. Strong presence at all the Northeast airports, its an absolute area of focus for delta. They consider JFK/LGA/BOS and all cities in between important for their network. BOS is important for deltas Northeast strategy. They are holding on for the return of business travel. For now its leisure flying and holding the area strong. BOS is important to delta and i don't see that changing. The northeast has been heavily impacted by the business travel downturn. Some of that demand will certainly return eventually and delta is definitely not gonna go anywhere with BOS.
 
User avatar
tlecam
Posts: 1539
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:38 pm

Re: DL BOS hub

Tue Aug 10, 2021 6:45 pm

CMHARJ wrote:
I understand that DL now considers BOS and SEA their costal hubs. DL has built up SEA considering if was just a small transpacific gateway and flights strictly to the spokes. When I look at BOS, I don't see it as a hub per say. Yes, it has a handful of transatlantic flights, along with the regular high frequencies to the hubs, especially ATL. But I really don't see much spoke action. It has 4 flights a day to RDU, which is a "new" focus city and 1 flight to AUS, which DL considers a "focus city", which is another separate topic on its own. I think DL dragged its feet too long and AA and other airlines took stake in AUS. The only other spoke cities I see DL fly to from BOS are CMH, IND. MCI, and PIT, which were all considered "S" cities from NW lingo. My understand of a definition of hub would be banked arrival/departures and multiple spoke cities serviced, not just the hubs. Maybe I'm looking too much into this.



What was the source for the bolded items?
 
BAINY3
Posts: 291
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2017 4:42 pm

Re: DL BOS hub

Tue Aug 10, 2021 6:56 pm

The full current list for BOS destinations, including those operated by Delta's "core partners," in the coming seven days (thus picking up anything that operates less than daily, but excludes currently suspended or out-of-season routes), is:
(All are at least daily by Delta unless listed otherwise)

KEF
AMS (DL & KLM) (except Tuesday/Thursday)
LHR (Virgin Atlantic) (Monday, Thursday, Saturday; increasing to daily on 18 Aug)
CDG (Air France)
FCO (Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday)
ICN (Korean) (Wednesday, Friday, Sunday)
CUN (Saturdays)
BGR
JFK
LGA
MIA
FLL
RSW (Saturdays)
TPA
MCO
JAX
ATL
SAV (Saturdays)
HHH (Saturdays)
CHS
MYR (Saturdays)
RDU
RIC
ORF (except Monday/Tuesday)
DCA
BNA
AUS
PIT
CLE
CMH
CVG
DTW
IND
TVC (Saturdays)
ORD
MSP
MCI
SLC
LAS
LAX
SEA
 
LexPassenger
Posts: 65
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2000 11:36 am

Re: DL BOS hub

Tue Aug 10, 2021 6:58 pm

"delta is definitely not gonna go anywhere with BOS"

slc, you might want to rethink the ambiguity of this phrase.

Also, I am often amused at how religiously A-netters can debate the deep meaning of marketing terms like "focus city". Medieval theologians would be jealous.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 9995
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: DL BOS hub

Tue Aug 10, 2021 7:13 pm

CMHARJ wrote:
But I really don't see much spoke action.


Once again, we have an a.net thread pinned on inadequate command of objective present fact. OP could have built a list just the same as jb1087xna or BAINY3 did, and likely wouldn't have made the same assertion.
 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 5213
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:30 am

Re: DL BOS hub

Tue Aug 10, 2021 7:35 pm

LexPassenger wrote:
"delta is definitely not gonna go anywhere with BOS"

slc, you might want to rethink the ambiguity of this phrase.

Also, I am often amused at how religiously A-netters can debate the deep meaning of marketing terms like "focus city". Medieval theologians would be jealous.


Auto correct changed *in to * with. It thought it was helping me with grammer. The other sentences if you read them are not ambiguous
 
User avatar
chunhimlai
Posts: 723
Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2015 11:03 am

Re: DL BOS hub

Tue Aug 10, 2021 8:39 pm

Logan is too small for any airline to build a fortress hub or even a small hub like LAX
 
Dieuwer
Posts: 2892
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:27 pm

Re: DL BOS hub

Tue Aug 10, 2021 10:20 pm

Does BOS have more DL destinations than say MSP or SLC?
 
airbazar
Posts: 10466
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

Re: DL BOS hub

Tue Aug 10, 2021 10:20 pm

chunhimlai wrote:
Logan is too small for any airline to build a fortress hub or even a small hub like LAX

It's too small to build a large hub but being large is not an indication of a fortress hub either. Neither JFK nor LAX are fortress hubs and they are both pretty big airports. DEN isn't a fortress hub anymore either considering how WN has been able to expand. ORD is huge and it's not a fortress hub either. MDW on the other hand, I don't think anyone but WN calls the shots there. You could say it's a WN fortress hub but then again WN doesn't have hubs :lol: The concept of fortress hub is tied to history and its respective dominant airline's association with or protection from the city and local politics. BOS has no real dominant carrier and neither the airport nor the local politics favor a specific airline. That's why it's hard for any airline to achieve fortress hub status in BOS. The use it or lose policy for gates also makes it hard for airlines to squat on gates in order to prevent other from coming in.
 
Italianflyer
Posts: 758
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2007 3:06 pm

Re: DL BOS hub

Tue Aug 10, 2021 10:31 pm

IMHO the BOS hub 4.0 venture will be one of the last ones to spool up post COVID. Geographic scope for transfers is limited to domestic to international and O/D is heavily geared towards corporate finance, bioengineering, tech and academia/R&D.
The consensus seems to be that those sectors will not get back on airplanes on a large scale until this time next year....at best.

The well of discretionary travel only runs so deep. When schools reopen the number of Kens and Karen's wanting to party in New Orleans for a weekend or defrost in Florida/the Caribbean will drop precipitously.

If anything I think Delta is trying to build a bulwark against an upstart like B6 who could be a takeover candidate by the likes of AA or UA during the next downturn. If the bean counters in Atlanta say it's worth burning cash to maintain the fort....go for it.
 
BangersAndMash
Posts: 271
Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2021 5:21 pm

Re: DL BOS HUB

Tue Aug 10, 2021 11:10 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
CMHARJ wrote:
I understand that DL now considers BOS and SEA their costal hubs. DL has built up SEA considering if was just a small transpacific gateway and flights strictly to the spokes. When I look at BOS, I don't see it as a hub per say. Yes, it has a handful of transatlantic flights, along with the regular high frequencies to the hubs, especially ATL. But I really don't see much spoke action. It has 4 flights a day to RDU, which is a "new" focus city and 1 flight to AUS, which DL considers a "focus city", which is another separate topic on its own. I think DL dragged its feet too long and AA and other airlines took stake in AUS. The only other spoke cities I see DL fly to from BOS are CMH, IND. MCI, and PIT, which were all considered "S" cities from NW lingo. My understand of a definition of hub would be banked arrival/departures and multiple spoke cities serviced, not just the hubs. Maybe I'm looking too much into this.


What you are doing, as what many on a.net do, is take your own preconceived definition of a "hub" and tell DL they are wrong and can't use the term. DL considers it a hub - conversation over.

Regardless, your facts are wrong. CLT, DFW and YYZ are not S cities. https://news.delta.com/delta-expands-bo ... stinations. Are AUA, MBJ, NAS, PUJ, STT, PLS, too? https://thepointsguy.com/news/delta-air ... om-boston/ Furthermore, diminishing the importance a number of TATL is shortsighted. These are just a few points.


Except the term "hub" has a clearly accepted definition. As does the term "focus city". If you're Delta and have something else in mind, do everybody a favour and do like AA for BOS and AUS, don't call it anything. This way, people don't get legitimately confused.

I can start calling a cat a dog, but that's not going to be very helpful for anyone now, it it.
 
jbs2886
Posts: 3396
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: DL BOS HUB

Tue Aug 10, 2021 11:15 pm

BangersAndMash wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
CMHARJ wrote:
I understand that DL now considers BOS and SEA their costal hubs. DL has built up SEA considering if was just a small transpacific gateway and flights strictly to the spokes. When I look at BOS, I don't see it as a hub per say. Yes, it has a handful of transatlantic flights, along with the regular high frequencies to the hubs, especially ATL. But I really don't see much spoke action. It has 4 flights a day to RDU, which is a "new" focus city and 1 flight to AUS, which DL considers a "focus city", which is another separate topic on its own. I think DL dragged its feet too long and AA and other airlines took stake in AUS. The only other spoke cities I see DL fly to from BOS are CMH, IND. MCI, and PIT, which were all considered "S" cities from NW lingo. My understand of a definition of hub would be banked arrival/departures and multiple spoke cities serviced, not just the hubs. Maybe I'm looking too much into this.


What you are doing, as what many on a.net do, is take your own preconceived definition of a "hub" and tell DL they are wrong and can't use the term. DL considers it a hub - conversation over.

Regardless, your facts are wrong. CLT, DFW and YYZ are not S cities. https://news.delta.com/delta-expands-bo ... stinations. Are AUA, MBJ, NAS, PUJ, STT, PLS, too? https://thepointsguy.com/news/delta-air ... om-boston/ Furthermore, diminishing the importance a number of TATL is shortsighted. These are just a few points.


Except the term "hub" has a clearly accepted definition. As does the term "focus city". If you're Delta and have something else in mind, do everybody a favour and do like AA for BOS and AUS, don't call it anything. This way, people don't get legitimately confused.

I can start calling a cat a dog, but that's not going to be very helpful for anyone now, it it.


No one is confused except a handful of people on here - and no one else cares. As multiple posters indicated above, DL has a substantial number of routes and connections in BOS and it is wholly acceptable to call it a hub.

Honestly, this forum's obsession with telling DL they are wrong in characterizing cities is absolutely ridiculous.
 
Detroit313
Posts: 693
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:56 pm

Re: DL BOS hub

Wed Aug 11, 2021 1:26 am

Nothing below 200-250 departures is a hub. Just because they use that term for marketing reasons, it does not make an airport a hub or focus city.

United and American have much stricter standards for what they call a hub.
 
User avatar
ERJ170
Posts: 5946
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 11:15 am

Re: DL BOS hub

Wed Aug 11, 2021 1:54 am

CMHARJ wrote:
It has 4 flights a day to RDU, which is a "new" focus city and 1 flight to AUS, which DL considers a "focus city", which is another separate topic on its own.


How is RDU a “new focus city” and AUS is a “focus city”? RDu has been a focus city much longer. But oh well
 
jbs2886
Posts: 3396
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: DL BOS hub

Wed Aug 11, 2021 2:13 am

Detroit313 wrote:
Nothing below 200-250 departures is a hub. Just because they use that term for marketing reasons, it does not make an airport a hub or focus city.

United and American have much stricter standards for what they call a hub.


Oh? Is that the official definition? Also, I don’t think AA or UA have 200/250+ departures from LAX; nor AA from JFK. So, no, they don’t have “stricter” standards.
 
winginit
Posts: 3073
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: DL BOS hub

Wed Aug 11, 2021 2:24 am

Detroit313 wrote:
Nothing below 200-250 departures is a hub. Just because they use that term for marketing reasons, it does not make an airport a hub or focus city.

United and American have much stricter standards for what they call a hub.


Huh? If an airline calls it a hub across say external channels, it is, by their definition, a hub. What you call it, or what you feel they have the right to call it, is entirely irrelevant.
 
LexPassenger
Posts: 65
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2000 11:36 am

Re: DL BOS hub

Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:45 am

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
The other sentences if you read them are not ambiguous


Yes, hence the suggestion that the ambiguous final phrasing was somehow not right. Since I mostly agree with you about Delta and Boston, it seemed useful to confirm I had understood correctly. Frustrating how tools betray us sometime.

Regarding definitions, there is no statutory meaning of either "hub" or "focus city" dudes. I remember when Piedmont called Baltimore a "hub" with 28 flights (they later grew it, of course), and the first time I saw the phrase "focus city" was when TWA so referred to LAX after adding a flight to San Juan to join its other dozen or so flights.
 
zrs70
Posts: 3805
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2000 4:08 am

Re: DL BOS hub

Wed Aug 11, 2021 4:12 am

Lol! This reminds me of how excited I was in the mid 80’s when I obtained a large fold out Delta route map. The literature on the map called Boston a mini-hub.

As a kid from Boston, make me feel important!

At the time, Delta has service to places like Bangor, Portland, Hartford, LGA, JFK, DCA, BWI, PHL, and Montreal, thus it was somewhat of a connecting point for the Northeast.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 22888
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: DL BOS hub

Wed Aug 11, 2021 8:44 pm

Post on topic with references for facts.
 
DTWLAX
Posts: 1219
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 4:19 pm

Re: DL BOS hub

Thu Aug 12, 2021 1:33 am

Detroit313 wrote:
Nothing below 200-250 departures is a hub.

And who decided on that being the definition of a hub?
 
crownvic
Posts: 2892
Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2004 10:16 pm

Re: DL BOS hub

Thu Aug 12, 2021 3:22 am

You know when you know you are old? When you watch the airline business like I have for most of you life and you see all these airlines make another attempt of setting up a hub at an airport they they have already tried two previous times. Delta in Boston? This is "Round 3" for them in my lifetime (and possibly a fourth stint). This is nothing unique in the airline business. Big cities like BOS are not alone and you just see the airlines go around and around like this over the years. Although some do stick (i.e. AA at DFW, UA/CO at EWR or DL at ATL), over time, many of these hub build ups at airports take several years to reach fruition, yet they vanish at a rapid speed.

There are too many reasons to list why this happens. A player exits a city and another fills in, an airline goes out of business leaving void, or new management comes in and sees an opportunity that the previous management missed (or so they think they missed). Then you have a case of a sleepy little town like Austin TX, that becomes an international destination over-nite. Again, the reasons are endless.
 
airbazar
Posts: 10466
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

Re: DL BOS hub

Thu Aug 12, 2021 3:16 pm

crownvic wrote:
You know when you know you are old? When you watch the airline business like I have for most of you life and you see all these airlines make another attempt of setting up a hub at an airport they they have already tried two previous times. Delta in Boston? This is "Round 3" for them in my lifetime (and possibly a fourth stint). This is nothing unique in the airline business. Big cities like BOS are not alone and you just see the airlines go around and around like this over the years.


On that topic, did Eastern, Northwest, US Air, ever called BOS a hub? All of them had a big presence in BOS at some point.
Eastern had their own terminal (Terminal A) which was demolished to make room for the now Delta terminal. IIRC Northwest used BOS for TATL connections. And US Air/Airways was at one point the largest carrier in Boston operating to various small New England towns.
 
cs03
Posts: 428
Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2003 9:56 am

Re: DL BOS hub

Thu Aug 12, 2021 5:06 pm

One reason Eastern had Terminal A at BOS was the Air Shuttle. IIRC Shuttle gates on one side, all other EA flights on the other, and PBA, Precision in the middle. (ground level). I do not believe that EA, NW or US called BOS a hub.
 
Italianflyer
Posts: 758
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2007 3:06 pm

Re: DL BOS hub

Thu Aug 12, 2021 5:50 pm

NW most certainly considered BOS a "hub" from the mid 80s to the early-mid 90s. Airlink connected smaller NE cities to feed Europe:LGW,CDG,FRA,GLA, PIK and domesticly CLE,
SEA,LAX,SFO,ORD,MSP,DTW,MEM,DCA,MCO,RSW, TPA and I think some seasonal Caribbean places.
They were an anchor sponsor for the Boston Marathon at one point.
Post Gulf war I downturn calls him to reevaluate their strategy in BOS (and DCA) to focus on the three core hubs leaving BOS as one of the handful of costal 'international gateway' cities.
 
ScottB
Posts: 7533
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

Re: DL BOS HUB

Thu Aug 12, 2021 6:06 pm

BangersAndMash wrote:
Except the term "hub" has a clearly accepted definition. As does the term "focus city". If you're Delta and have something else in mind, do everybody a favour and do like AA for BOS and AUS, don't call it anything. This way, people don't get legitimately confused.


No, it does not. The government's definition of "hub" (and classification of airports into large/medium/small hubs or non-hubs) is entirely different from how the term is bandied about in the industry. And for the most part, an airport is a hub for an airline if they say it's a hub. America West called CMH a hub even though I doubt they ever got much above 50 total departures (and maybe a dozen of those were mainline). Midwest (Express)'s hub at MKE got to maybe 150 departures at its peak and DL plans to grow BOS larger than that.

"Focus city" is a nebulous, meaningless term -- it's really just marketing blather. TWA was calling LAX and SJU "focus cities" with maybe a dozen daily departures.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 26693
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: DL BOS HUB

Thu Aug 12, 2021 6:40 pm

ScottB wrote:
No, it does not. The government's definition of "hub" (and classification of airports into large/medium/small hubs or non-hubs) is entirely different from how the term is bandied about in the industry. And for the most part, an airport is a hub for an airline if they say it's a hub. America West called CMH a hub even though I doubt they ever got much above 50 total departures (and maybe a dozen of those were mainline). Midwest (Express)'s hub at MKE got to maybe 150 departures at its peak and DL plans to grow BOS larger than that.

"Focus city" is a nebulous, meaningless term -- it's really just marketing blather. TWA was calling LAX and SJU "focus cities" with maybe a dozen daily departures.

It seems to give various posters some sort of weird sense of arousal or power to be able to declare an airport a hub, yet it is so meaningless. BOS is my closest international airport and it really means nothing to me if an airline or an a.net poster decides to call it a hub or not.

If anything, hub status usually means competition goes down and prices go up for O&D travel, so people living near BOS would be better off if airlines didn't think of it as a hub yet provided a lot of flights to interesting destinations. We're pretty lucky the biggest US airlines and their alliance partners are still having to duke it out at BOS instead of having one dominant carrier that could charge whatever they want.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 9995
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: DL BOS HUB

Thu Aug 12, 2021 7:00 pm

Revelation wrote:
If anything, hub status usually means competition goes down and prices go up for O&D travel, so people living near BOS would be better off if airlines didn't think of it as a hub yet provided a lot of flights to interesting destinations.


One can see that in the quarterly DOT fare reports. Table 7 shows % fare premium by airport. Among the big airports:

LGA +19% (don't you love limited capacity and slots!)

IAD +17%

CLT +17%

DFW +17%

EWR +14%

DCA +14%

IAH + 14%

-----------

LAS -17%

SEA -12%

FLL -10%

BOS -5%

Everyone recognize the pattern? :)

All data from 4Q2019. https://www.transportation.gov/office-p ... report-pdf

And, for those who want to argue that DL is particularly extractive at its ATL/DTW/MSP hubs:

ATL +9%

DTW +9%

MSP +1%
 
Capn
Posts: 286
Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2017 4:14 pm

Re: DL BOS hub

Thu Aug 12, 2021 7:39 pm

Does anyone know how much, if any, renovations DL. Did to their gates on A while they flew their reduced pandemic schedule ?
 
User avatar
N717TW
Posts: 609
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2016 9:24 pm

Re: DL BOS hub

Fri Aug 13, 2021 12:59 am

Capn wrote:
Does anyone know how much, if any, renovations DL. Did to their gates on A while they flew their reduced pandemic schedule ?


I have flown four times this summer from Terminal A and I haven't noticed any post-pandemic updates at all. The updated gate podium desks at gates 18-22 (the gates that WN used temporarily before moving over to Terminal B) are still there but everything else feels exactly the same from 2019. Delta also stopped construction on the upgraded lounge in the satellite wing during lockdown and it didn't appear they have restarted.

They are slowly bringing back service. Philly and Buffalo are coming back next month and "brand new" service to CLT and DFW (if we ignore that they operated that route for 20 years when there was a hub at DFW) are online this fall. At this point the only nonstop domestic point served in 2019 not showing back on the schedule for 2021-22 is EWR. Delta will be back over 100 avg daily departures by October and is staffing back up on the ramp.

I also think of this as the 3rd ramp up towards a hub (maybe 4th) in my lifetime. I guess Im also old.

As far as calling Boston a "hub" over the years; NW, AA, DL, US, and even UA considered BOS a significant enough station to warrant a terminal map in their timetables and/or inflight magazine (back when they did such things). I suppose that could because airline wanted to draw attention to the service they offer from Boston but the terminal map likely indicates the respective route-planning and sales departments had enough purposeful/intentional connections through Logan that the marketing departments felt the need to add the map.

With the exception of TWAs TATL service and NW's TATL gateway hub in the late 80s through the mid-90s, its fair to say most of the connections are secondary to O&D similar to how DL uses LGA and how most airlines use LAX (i.e. sell as many seats to locals and fill the rest with connections).

There was a lot of revenue for DL (and AA and UA) to capture through corporate travel into and from Boston even if though it is a competitive market. DL's actions (and those of B6 and AA) indicate that all three believe there will be a lot of money to make going forward. At the end of the day, Boston has a very high average income and is a knowledge-based economy with two significant universities (Harvard and MIT...no offense to BC, Northeastern, Tufts, and the 60+ other schools) that attract people from all over the world and whose students/employees are recruited all over the world. That combination drives a lot of travel. And all that travel justifies a "hub" even if its essentially aimed at O&D and the connections are incidental. Compare NYC and LA for similarities and how UA has a hub in EWR and LAX while DL has a hub at LGA and another at LAX even though they make little sense as a connecting complex on the map (or due to air traffic).
 
User avatar
IceCream
Posts: 156
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:46 pm

Re: DL BOS hub

Fri Aug 13, 2021 1:04 am

If you were to really argue about the definition of a hub, I would say it's just a place with 50% or more of their passengers on an airline being connecting passengers, especially with banks. Eg, WS at YYC has less than 250 daily departures but fits that definition. Either way, if an airline says it's a hub, then it's a hub.
 
jbs2886
Posts: 3396
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: DL BOS hub

Fri Aug 13, 2021 1:30 am

IceCream wrote:
If you were to really argue about the definition of a hub, I would say it's just a place with 50% or more of their passengers on an airline being connecting passengers, especially with banks. Eg, WS at YYC has less than 250 daily departures but fits that definition. Either way, if an airline says it's a hub, then it's a hub.


Lol what? There are a lot of hubs that are now not “hubs” because they don’t have over 50% connections.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 9995
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: DL BOS hub

Fri Aug 13, 2021 1:58 am

IceCream wrote:
If you were to really argue about the definition of a hub, I would say it's just a place with 50% or more of their passengers on an airline being connecting passengers, especially with banks. Eg, WS at YYC has less than 250 daily departures but fits that definition. Either way, if an airline says it's a hub, then it's a hub.


Orlando Airport regularly updates data ranking the country's largest O&D airports and segregates O&D and connecting shares.

Go to 'U.S. O&D Airport Ranking' in Traffic Statistics.

https://orlandoairports.net/about-us/#t ... statistics

By your definition the only hubs for the 12 mos ending 12/2020 among the top 30 U.S. O&D airports are:

ATL

DFW

and CLT

This is a patently ridiculous criterion.
 
User avatar
IceCream
Posts: 156
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:46 pm

Re: DL BOS hub

Fri Aug 13, 2021 2:46 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
IceCream wrote:
If you were to really argue about the definition of a hub, I would say it's just a place with 50% or more of their passengers on an airline being connecting passengers, especially with banks. Eg, WS at YYC has less than 250 daily departures but fits that definition. Either way, if an airline says it's a hub, then it's a hub.


Orlando Airport regularly updates data ranking the country's largest O&D airports and segregates O&D and connecting shares.

Go to 'U.S. O&D Airport Ranking' in Traffic Statistics.

https://orlandoairports.net/about-us/#t ... statistics

By your definition the only hubs for the 12 mos ending 12/2020 among the top 30 U.S. O&D airports are:

ATL

DFW

and CLT

This is a patently ridiculous criterion.

I'll change my definition to a significant amount of connecting passengers (not that my definition matters). You're right! (Also, like I said, I was referring to a specific airline, not the airport in general)
 
User avatar
Rajahdhani
Posts: 745
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2016 3:13 pm

Re: DL BOS hub

Fri Aug 13, 2021 3:42 am

https://news.delta.com/corporate-stats-and-facts
"Delta operates significant hubs and key markets at airports in Amsterdam, Atlanta, Boston, Detroit, London-Heathrow, Los Angeles, Mexico City, Minneapolis/St. Paul, New York-JFK and LaGuardia, Paris-Charles de Gaulle, Salt Lake City, Seattle, Seoul-Incheon and Tokyo."


Why not let Delta decide, huh?
 
User avatar
IceCream
Posts: 156
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:46 pm

Re: DL BOS hub

Fri Aug 13, 2021 3:43 am

Rajahdhani wrote:
https://news.delta.com/corporate-stats-and-facts
"Delta operates significant hubs and key markets at airports in Amsterdam, Atlanta, Boston, Detroit, London-Heathrow, Los Angeles, Mexico City, Minneapolis/St. Paul, New York-JFK and LaGuardia, Paris-Charles de Gaulle, Salt Lake City, Seattle, Seoul-Incheon and Tokyo."


Why not let Delta decide, huh?

Totally! If the airline days it's a hub then it's a hub.
 
User avatar
Rajahdhani
Posts: 745
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2016 3:13 pm

Re: DL BOS hub

Fri Aug 13, 2021 3:54 am

https://www.boston.com/travel/travel/2021/06/01/delta-logan-airport-cape-air/
[url]https://www.boston.com/travel/travel/2021/06/01/delta-logan-airport-cape-air/[/url]"...said Charlie Schewe, director of New England sales for Delta, in a statement. “Our enhanced partnership with Cape Air offers access to sought-after destinations across the Northeast along with greater connectivity directly to Delta’s global network out of our Boston hub, where we’re committed to deepening Delta’s strong footprint.”"


Boston.com, seems the folks on the ground report this stuff! From the mouth of babes, really...
 
onwFan
Posts: 669
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 4:02 am

Re: DL BOS hub

Fri Aug 13, 2021 5:10 am

Rajahdhani wrote:
https://news.delta.com/corporate-stats-and-facts
"Delta operates significant hubs and key markets at airports in Amsterdam, Atlanta, Boston, Detroit, London-Heathrow, Los Angeles, Mexico City, Minneapolis/St. Paul, New York-JFK and LaGuardia, Paris-Charles de Gaulle, Salt Lake City, Seattle, Seoul-Incheon and Tokyo."


Why not let Delta decide, huh?

Yes, tomorrow if they AUS is a hub, a hub it is!
 
crownvic
Posts: 2892
Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2004 10:16 pm

Re: DL BOS hub

Fri Aug 13, 2021 5:35 am

airbazar wrote:
crownvic wrote:
You know when you know you are old? When you watch the airline business like I have for most of you life and you see all these airlines make another attempt of setting up a hub at an airport they they have already tried two previous times. Delta in Boston? This is "Round 3" for them in my lifetime (and possibly a fourth stint). This is nothing unique in the airline business. Big cities like BOS are not alone and you just see the airlines go around and around like this over the years.


On that topic, did Eastern, Northwest, US Air, ever called BOS a hub? All of them had a big presence in BOS at some point.
Eastern had their own terminal (Terminal A) which was demolished to make room for the now Delta terminal. IIRC Northwest used BOS for TATL connections. And US Air/Airways was at one point the largest carrier in Boston operating to various small New England towns.


USAir did have a fairly large presence at one time in BOS. IIRC, they even had one or two international flights to Europe with 762s. I want to say possibly one of the flights was to LGW?

Many posters have an opinion on what a hub is. For me, a true hub is an airport that serves lots of connecting passengers with several banks of flights per day. In recent years, many airlines have begun to do away with the banks, even at true hub airports, so some hubs are homogenizing into non bank hubs. These types of hubs are seeing a more balanced flow of traffic during the course of the day rather than the traditional peaks and valleys of the bank system. What I am seeing now is, the mega-hubs that may have had a massive morning, afternoon and evening bank, have kept a morning bank, dissolved the afternoon bank and retained the late afternoon bank for connections to flow into European flights. Probably more a fine tuning of the old bank system.
 
B752OS
Posts: 1340
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 4:05 am

Re: DL BOS hub

Fri Aug 13, 2021 1:52 pm

crownvic wrote:
airbazar wrote:
crownvic wrote:
You know when you know you are old? When you watch the airline business like I have for most of you life and you see all these airlines make another attempt of setting up a hub at an airport they they have already tried two previous times. Delta in Boston? This is "Round 3" for them in my lifetime (and possibly a fourth stint). This is nothing unique in the airline business. Big cities like BOS are not alone and you just see the airlines go around and around like this over the years.


On that topic, did Eastern, Northwest, US Air, ever called BOS a hub? All of them had a big presence in BOS at some point.
Eastern had their own terminal (Terminal A) which was demolished to make room for the now Delta terminal. IIRC Northwest used BOS for TATL connections. And US Air/Airways was at one point the largest carrier in Boston operating to various small New England towns.


USAir did have a fairly large presence at one time in BOS. IIRC, they even had one or two international flights to Europe with 762s. I want to say possibly one of the flights was to LGW?

Many posters have an opinion on what a hub is. For me, a true hub is an airport that serves lots of connecting passengers with several banks of flights per day. In recent years, many airlines have begun to do away with the banks, even at true hub airports, so some hubs are homogenizing into non bank hubs. These types of hubs are seeing a more balanced flow of traffic during the course of the day rather than the traditional peaks and valleys of the bank system. What I am seeing now is, the mega-hubs that may have had a massive morning, afternoon and evening bank, have kept a morning bank, dissolved the afternoon bank and retained the late afternoon bank for connections to flow into European flights. Probably more a fine tuning of the old bank system.


They also used to fly to FRA too.
 
airbazar
Posts: 10466
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

Re: DL BOS hub

Fri Aug 13, 2021 2:35 pm

B752OS wrote:

They also used to fly to FRA too.


I was about to say that because I was booked to fly BOS-FRA-MUC with 1st leg on US and 2nd leg on LH. That was back before there was a BOS-MUC. Then bad weather rolled in across the Northeast cancelling my flight. They ended up re-routing me to MUC via PHL. The entire Northeast was in shambles as usual. We sat on the plane in PHL for a couple of hours waiting for all the connecting passengers to arrive. This was before there were cell phones and I couldn't call anyone to tell them where I was, or when I was expected to arrive, or even that I had been re-routed. Weeee... fun times :D

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos