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GalaxyFlyer
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Turkish attempts take-off on taxiway at KEWR

Thu Aug 19, 2021 12:12 pm

I didn’t see this discussed here, lots of parallel surfaces there. It looks like the crossed a runway to line-up and get to 90 knots before stopping.

http://avherald.com/h?article=4ebc1eb6
 
zuckie13
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Re: Turkish attempts take-off on taxiway at KEWR

Thu Aug 19, 2021 12:23 pm

"The captain subsequently announced they had rejected takeoff for a mechanical problem."

When he wrote up the problem it read "Problem exists between yoke and chair"
 
AT
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Re: Turkish attempts take-off on taxiway at KEWR

Thu Aug 19, 2021 12:48 pm

I am not a pilot but still - find this incredibly hard to believe that something like this can happen. The markings/lighting are so unmistakably different on a taxiway vs runway, how distracted would the pilots have to be to not notice something like that.

It's also a miracle that there was no obstructing traffic on the taxiway. Though on the other hand that may have alerted them to the fact that they were not in the correct place.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Turkish attempts take-off on taxiway at KEWR

Thu Aug 19, 2021 12:55 pm

AT wrote:
I am not a pilot but still - find this incredibly hard to believe that something like this can happen. The markings/lighting are so unmistakably different on a taxiway vs runway, how distracted would the pilots have to be to not notice something like that.

It's also a miracle that there was no obstructing traffic on the taxiway. Though on the other hand that may have alerted them to the fact that they were not in the correct place.


It’s far from the first time it’s happened and it certainly won’t be the last.
 
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BWIAirport
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Re: Turkish attempts take-off on taxiway at KEWR

Thu Aug 19, 2021 12:56 pm

I know the TK flight departs very late from EWR, but man this seems much more egregious when the error is made on the ground vs in the air like Air Canada at SFO. Apparently wasn't a giveaway to the pilots that the runway had blue edge lights and a green centerline.
Also, aren't 77Ws equipped with RAAS? I thought they warned "on taxiway" above 40kt
 
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BWIAirport
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Re: Turkish attempts take-off on taxiway at KEWR

Thu Aug 19, 2021 12:57 pm

BWIAirport wrote:
I know the TK flight departs very late from EWR, but man this seems much more egregious when the error is made on the ground vs in the air like Air Canada at SFO. Apparently wasn't a giveaway to the pilots that the runway had blue edge lights and a green centerline.
Also, aren't 77Ws equipped with RAAS? I thought they warned "on taxiway" above 40kt

My mistake, it was an A333, but I thought they had similar systems.
 
Newark727
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Re: Turkish attempts take-off on taxiway at KEWR

Thu Aug 19, 2021 1:07 pm

Glad nobody was hurt though.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Turkish attempts take-off on taxiway at KEWR

Thu Aug 19, 2021 1:07 pm

The relevant taxiway is about as long as the closed 4R/22L, but taxiways are lighted green while runways are lighted white. The problem here was between the neck and the top of the head.
 
peterinlisbon
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Re: Turkish attempts take-off on taxiway at KEWR

Thu Aug 19, 2021 1:17 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
The relevant taxiway is about as long as the closed 4R/22L, but taxiways are lighted green while runways are lighted white. The problem here was between the neck and the top of the head.


Actually I wonder if they should look at reviewing the lighting system to stop events like this from happening. It's far from being the first time. A parallel taxiway can easily look a lot like a runway.
 
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AC_B777
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Re: Turkish attempts take-off on taxiway at KEWR

Thu Aug 19, 2021 1:41 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
The relevant taxiway is about as long as the closed 4R/22L, but taxiways are lighted green while runways are lighted white. The problem here was between the neck and the top of the head.

Taxiway lights are blue. The centerline line lights are green, but the edge lights are blue. Either way, they still should have know the difference.
 
DFW17L
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Re: Turkish attempts take-off on taxiway at KEWR

Thu Aug 19, 2021 1:52 pm

Color blind?
 
phatfarmlines
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Re: Turkish attempts take-off on taxiway at KEWR

Thu Aug 19, 2021 3:40 pm

Will this mean EWR will get the infamous LAS taxiway ground markings with the squiggly lines?
 
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Coronado990
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Re: Turkish attempts take-off on taxiway at KEWR

Thu Aug 19, 2021 4:13 pm

Go back to curved taxiways.
 
F27500
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Re: Turkish attempts take-off on taxiway at KEWR

Thu Aug 19, 2021 4:16 pm

zuckie13 wrote:
"The captain subsequently announced they had rejected takeoff for a mechanical problem."

When he wrote up the problem it read "Problem exists between yoke and chair"




The chair did it. :lol:
 
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Phen
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Re: Turkish attempts take-off on taxiway at KEWR

Thu Aug 19, 2021 4:35 pm

phatfarmlines wrote:
Will this mean EWR will get the infamous LAS taxiway ground markings with the squiggly lines?

How interesting. I never knew about this. It seems to be gone now though, google maps satellite imagery shows it has been removed but the outline of it is still visible. Why did they remove it? Did someone try to taxi along that line??? :lol:
 
LX321
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Re: Turkish attempts take-off on taxiway at KEWR

Thu Aug 19, 2021 4:39 pm

So Airbus planes have a yoke now or was the captain on another plane?
 
737max8
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Re: Turkish attempts take-off on taxiway at KEWR

Thu Aug 19, 2021 5:26 pm

Lets just say they continue the takeoff on the taxiway, could they have taken off successfully?

Assuming no traffic on the taxiway...
 
flight152
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Re: Turkish attempts take-off on taxiway at KEWR

Thu Aug 19, 2021 5:28 pm

LX321 wrote:
So Airbus planes have a yoke now or was the captain on another plane?


Their physical bodies may have been there, but neither pilot was present.
 
87GROUNDED
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Re: Turkish attempts take-off on taxiway at KEWR

Thu Aug 19, 2021 5:43 pm

Contrary to rumors circulating amongst the ATC staff at EWR the CA was not Harrison Ford.
 
IADCA
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Re: Turkish attempts take-off on taxiway at KEWR

Thu Aug 19, 2021 6:22 pm

737max8 wrote:
Lets just say they continue the takeoff on the taxiway, could they have taken off successfully?

Assuming no traffic on the taxiway...


Assuming no traffic on or obstructions near, I don't see why not. It's a full-length taxiway.
 
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airportugal310
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Re: Turkish attempts take-off on taxiway at KEWR

Thu Aug 19, 2021 6:32 pm

Phen wrote:
phatfarmlines wrote:
Will this mean EWR will get the infamous LAS taxiway ground markings with the squiggly lines?

How interesting. I never knew about this. It seems to be gone now though, google maps satellite imagery shows it has been removed but the outline of it is still visible. Why did they remove it? Did someone try to taxi along that line??? :lol:


For those curious and haven't seen... https://goo.gl/maps/dPdLHhVDaTDMDcVw8
 
Flflyer83
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Re: Turkish attempts take-off on taxiway at KEWR

Thu Aug 19, 2021 9:01 pm

airportugal310 wrote:
Phen wrote:
phatfarmlines wrote:
Will this mean EWR will get the infamous LAS taxiway ground markings with the squiggly lines?

How interesting. I never knew about this. It seems to be gone now though, google maps satellite imagery shows it has been removed but the outline of it is still visible. Why did they remove it? Did someone try to taxi along that line??? :lol:


For those curious and haven't seen... https://goo.gl/maps/dPdLHhVDaTDMDcVw8


When did google start editing planes out of the goggle earth images? Most airplanes have no aircraft at them. Some busy ones will have <5.
 
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Rajahdhani
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Re: Turkish attempts take-off on taxiway at KEWR

Thu Aug 19, 2021 9:45 pm

Perhaps those familiar with EWR (current realities - any projects that make the operation atypical), with the A330, and/or at TK that can assist with a better vantage.

While this is not the first event of this type, it should well be the last. What technologies are available to prevent this now? What moves can/should we make in future?
 
hpff
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Re: Turkish attempts take-off on taxiway at KEWR

Thu Aug 19, 2021 10:04 pm

Flflyer83 wrote:
airportugal310 wrote:
Phen wrote:
How interesting. I never knew about this. It seems to be gone now though, google maps satellite imagery shows it has been removed but the outline of it is still visible. Why did they remove it? Did someone try to taxi along that line??? :lol:


For those curious and haven't seen... https://goo.gl/maps/dPdLHhVDaTDMDcVw8


When did google start editing planes out of the goggle earth images? Most airplanes have no aircraft at them. Some busy ones will have <5.


A long time now, I think it mosaics the images automatically
 
zuckie13
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Re: Turkish attempts take-off on taxiway at KEWR

Thu Aug 19, 2021 11:17 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
The relevant taxiway is about as long as the closed 4R/22L, but taxiways are lighted green while runways are lighted white. The problem here was between the neck and the top of the head.


Probably good that 4R/22L is closed right now. If not, there would quite possibly be planes halfway down that taxiway waiting to cross over to the terminal.
 
N47
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Re: Turkish attempts take-off on taxiway at KEWR

Fri Aug 20, 2021 3:54 am

This is crazy. Do you know how many lights are there, touchdown zone lights and the rest it is really hard to miss unless u dont turn ur head at all. Pulling into the darker taxiway should have given them a clue. My family recently traveled on this route although it was on the 787 which presumably has raas. I bet the crew were busy taking on the view of the nyc skyline from that vantage.
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Turkish attempts take-off on taxiway at KEWR

Fri Aug 20, 2021 4:25 am

BWIAirport wrote:
I know the TK flight departs very late from EWR, but man this seems much more egregious when the error is made on the ground vs in the air like Air Canada at SFO. Apparently wasn't a giveaway to the pilots that the runway had blue edge lights and a green centerline.
Also, aren't 77Ws equipped with RAAS? I thought they warned "on taxiway" above 40kt


To answer your question, RAAS is optional on the 77W and some other models. Not all customers have it. RAAS is not available on the 787 or 777-9.

The 77W does have a RUNWAY DISAGREE caution level alert if the crew selects takeoff thrust and they aren’t on the departure runway programmed in the FMC. That was developed after the SIA at TPE accident.

Don’t A330s have a similar alert and an Airport Map on the Display like newer Boeing models do? I can’t imagine it doesn’t have something.
 
jerseyewr777
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Re: Turkish attempts take-off on taxiway at KEWR

Fri Aug 20, 2021 4:40 am

zuckie13 wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
The relevant taxiway is about as long as the closed 4R/22L, but taxiways are lighted green while runways are lighted white. The problem here was between the neck and the top of the head.


Probably good that 4R/22L is closed right now. If not, there would quite possibly be planes halfway down that taxiway waiting to cross over to the terminal.


Totally agree!!!
 
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FlyingJhawk
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Re: Turkish attempts take-off on taxiway at KEWR

Fri Aug 20, 2021 4:45 am

Stunningly inept crew. Both the PF and PM missed this? BOTH?!?!?
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Turkish attempts take-off on taxiway at KEWR

Fri Aug 20, 2021 5:35 am

AT wrote:
I am not a pilot but still - find this incredibly hard to believe that something like this can happen. The markings/lighting are so unmistakably different on a taxiway vs runway, how distracted would the pilots have to be to not notice something like that.

It's also a miracle that there was no obstructing traffic on the taxiway. Though on the other hand that may have alerted them to the fact that they were not in the correct place.


I think it was an A320, can't remember the airline, took off from the taxiway at OSL about 5-6 years ago.
 
CATIIIevery5yrs
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Re: Turkish attempts take-off on taxiway at KEWR

Fri Aug 20, 2021 5:37 am

Everyones talking light colors. I've been telling people for years theres so many lights, they all blend together. You'd be surprised what you should see that you don't see out there…...
 
CATIIIevery5yrs
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Re: Turkish attempts take-off on taxiway at KEWR

Fri Aug 20, 2021 5:39 am

I agree with the others who have mentioned it. It has and will continue to happen.
 
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Francoflier
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Re: Turkish attempts take-off on taxiway at KEWR

Fri Aug 20, 2021 6:58 am

BoeingGuy wrote:
Don’t A330s have a similar alert and an Airport Map on the Display like newer Boeing models do? I can’t imagine it doesn’t have something.


The legacy A330s have a runway alerting system as an option. It's a rather loud and obnoxious voice telling you that you are, or not, on a runway.

It is very annoying and always interrupts you in the middle of a checklist or when talking to ATC, but it is certainly effective in preventing this kind of occurence. I'm guessing that particular frame was not so equipped.

The 350 (and probably the Neo, not sure) have a much better system that only gives an aural alert if you're in the process of losing your job.
 
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a36001
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Re: Turkish attempts take-off on taxiway at KEWR

Fri Aug 20, 2021 8:01 am

Well obviously that plane will be a write off! :wave:
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Turkish attempts take-off on taxiway at KEWR

Fri Aug 20, 2021 11:02 am

As always in screw-ups of this variety and at that time of night, I'd be interested in what kind of day the crew had before reporting for duty. This type of loss of awareness is easily intigated by fatigue. Here's hoping TK does the appropriate follow-up.
 
11C
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Re: Turkish attempts take-off on taxiway at KEWR

Fri Aug 20, 2021 12:33 pm

FlyingJhawk wrote:
Stunningly inept crew. Both the PF and PM missed this? BOTH?!?!?


And if it an augmented crew, possibly more eyeballs missed it.
 
Fatbus
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Re: Turkish attempts take-off on taxiway at KEWR

Fri Aug 20, 2021 1:01 pm

Taxiways commonly used as back up rwys. Civil and military.
 
kiowa
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Re: Turkish attempts take-off on taxiway at KEWR

Fri Aug 20, 2021 1:26 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
The relevant taxiway is about as long as the closed 4R/22L, but taxiways are lighted green while runways are lighted white. The problem here was between the neck and the top of the head.



X2. I believe Turkish still has 2 pilots.
 
IFlyVeryLittle
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Re: Turkish attempts take-off on taxiway at KEWR

Fri Aug 20, 2021 1:49 pm

CATIIIevery5yrs wrote:
Everyones talking light colors. I've been telling people for years theres so many lights, they all blend together. You'd be surprised what you should see that you don't see out there…...

Agree with this to a certain extent, but these are PROFESSIONAL pilots, presumably the best of their company because they're flying internationally. Confused by all the lights is akin to an F1 driver complaining about "all that traffic."
 
Vicenza
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Re: Turkish attempts take-off on taxiway at KEWR

Fri Aug 20, 2021 3:28 pm

IFlyVeryLittle wrote:
CATIIIevery5yrs wrote:
Everyones talking light colors. I've been telling people for years theres so many lights, they all blend together. You'd be surprised what you should see that you don't see out there…...

Agree with this to a certain extent, but these are PROFESSIONAL pilots, presumably the best of their company because they're flying internationally. Confused by all the lights is akin to an F1 driver complaining about "all that traffic."


While I get what you are probably meaning, however 'Professional' merely means one get's paid for for what one does. Other than that, it has no particular significance. Thus all pilots at any airline are 'professional'.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Turkish attempts take-off on taxiway at KEWR

Fri Aug 20, 2021 4:07 pm

They are certificated to professionally operate transport category aircraft - that assumes they exhibit higher competency and skills than other paid pilots. It has plenty of significance - including theexpectation one can tell between taxiways and runways.
 
aviationjunky
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Re: Turkish attempts take-off on taxiway at KEWR

Fri Aug 20, 2021 4:15 pm

I mean.. I understand everyone saying it was pilot error.. But wouldn't he have to have been cleared for take-off by ATC? If the take-off wasn't cleared, couldn't that be a even bigger issue - the pilot initiated take-off without clearance? Wasn't there an entire air disaster in Tenerife because the pilot took off without clearance? (<< that's sarcasm for the one person that will be offended)
 
kalvado
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Re: Turkish attempts take-off on taxiway at KEWR

Fri Aug 20, 2021 4:18 pm

aviationjunky wrote:
I mean.. I understand everyone saying it was pilot error.. But wouldn't he have to have been cleared for take-off by ATC? If the take-off wasn't cleared, couldn't that be a even bigger issue - the pilot initiated take-off without clearance? Wasn't there an entire air disaster in Tenerife because the pilot took off without clearance? (<< that's sarcasm for the one person that will be offended)

Per AvHerald:
...was cleared for takeoff from runway 22R at intersection with taxiway W but crossed runway 22R, lined up taxiway P (parallel to and east of runway 22R) and commenced takeoff. Tower cancelled the takeoff clearance advising the crew they were on taxiway..

Sounds like they were cleared before they were on a runway
 
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Moose135
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Re: Turkish attempts take-off on taxiway at KEWR

Fri Aug 20, 2021 4:19 pm

Coronado990 wrote:
Go back to curved taxiways.


Until they mistake it for the circular runway.
 
martlet76
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Re: Turkish attempts take-off on taxiway at KEWR

Fri Aug 20, 2021 4:37 pm

This type of mistake repeatedly happens around the world. There is no point is simply blaming the crew. We should ask ourselves "how do crews repeatedly get onto this position?"
There is a weakness in the entire global system.
We send people into space, we've got good technology everywhere but we still use archaic techniques for guiding aircraft on the ground at busy airfields.
This is an industry weakness, it should be singled out for fixing (urgently).
 
canyonblue17
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Re: Turkish attempts take-off on taxiway at KEWR

Fri Aug 20, 2021 5:12 pm

...was cleared for takeoff from runway 22R at intersection with taxiway W but crossed runway 22R, lined up taxiway P (parallel to and east of runway 22R) and commenced takeoff. Tower cancelled the takeoff clearance advising the crew they were on taxiway..

Sounds like they were cleared before they were on a runway[/quote]

Not a pilot - but avid ATC listener. From what I hear - flights are frequently cleared for takeoff prior to lining up on runway.
 
FluidFlow
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Re: Turkish attempts take-off on taxiway at KEWR

Fri Aug 20, 2021 5:41 pm

canyonblue17 wrote:
...was cleared for takeoff from runway 22R at intersection with taxiway W but crossed runway 22R, lined up taxiway P (parallel to and east of runway 22R) and commenced takeoff. Tower cancelled the takeoff clearance advising the crew they were on taxiway..

Sounds like they were cleared before they were on a runway


Not a pilot - but avid ATC listener. From what I hear - flights are frequently cleared for takeoff prior to lining up on runway.[/quote]

In ZRH outside of busy times aircraft often drive on the runway and take off straight away without a stop so I guess they were cleared before they lined up.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Turkish attempts take-off on taxiway at KEWR

Fri Aug 20, 2021 9:22 pm

martlet76 wrote:
This type of mistake repeatedly happens around the world. There is no point is simply blaming the crew. We should ask ourselves "how do crews repeatedly get onto this position?"
There is a weakness in the entire global system.
We send people into space, we've got good technology everywhere but we still use archaic techniques for guiding aircraft on the ground at busy airfields.
This is an industry weakness, it should be singled out for fixing (urgently).


What do you propose should be used beyond the current tools? Autotaxi datalinked to ground control radar?
 
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DL717
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Re: Turkish attempts take-off on taxiway at KEWR

Fri Aug 20, 2021 9:49 pm

To be fair, the area where they began the takeoff run (22R)is a CF of disjointed intersections, poor markings, acutely angles to the runway, displaced thresholds and mixed asphalt and concrete pavement. Hell, the area has a taxiway leading up to the runway ends instead of 90 degree turns which isn’t even allowed anymore with new build. Probably caused the problem. Who knows if the taxiway lights were even in service with the runway construction.

Maybe Newark should get it’s crap together.

At least they aborted. But quite frankly, that area of the airfield is a dumpster fire and an accident waiting to happen. Anyone who knows anything about airfield design would look at that and say WTF???
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Turkish attempts take-off on taxiway at KEWR

Fri Aug 20, 2021 10:30 pm

DL717 wrote:
To be fair, the area where they began the takeoff run (22R)is a CF of disjointed intersections, poor markings, acutely angles to the runway, displaced thresholds and mixed asphalt and concrete pavement. Hell, the area has a taxiway leading up to the runway ends instead of 90 degree turns which isn’t even allowed anymore with new build. Probably caused the problem. Who knows if the taxiway lights were even in service with the runway construction.

Maybe Newark should get it’s crap together.

At least they aborted. But quite frankly, that area of the airfield is a dumpster fire and an accident waiting to happen. Anyone who knows anything about airfield design would look at that and say WTF???


Granted the layout is a mess, but surely that’s what lighted yellow versus red w/white border signs are for?

Also not sure if they’re using it on the A330, but TK has an EFB solutions package through Jeppesen.

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