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wjcandee
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Re: Updated: US Activates the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Mon Aug 23, 2021 3:19 am

National's A330. Without being "activated". Operating under the preexisting standard peacetime CRAF contracts, and under a CAMBER callsign: https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N819CA

Flying CHS-SOF-XJD-SOF-IAD. And now back to SOF.
Last edited by wjcandee on Mon Aug 23, 2021 3:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 10984
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Updated: US Activates the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Mon Aug 23, 2021 3:24 am

Adipocere wrote:
Hypothetically, what would happen if an airline were to refuse? Would people with guns come by and make off with the airplane? I can’t see how the “compel” part of the CRAF would work..


It's sort of moot in this case, since these guys would have done it without being activated, under their existing contracts, but the answer is that there are plenty of less-aggressive measures that could be brought to bear to bring them to heel. Loss of various opportunities, licenses, permits, certificates, etc., but that's unlikely. Most of the time, there's no real pushback if the instruction is possible and legal. If the airline had a real problem with it, and a legitimate beef, a lawsuit, maybe coupled with a temporary restraining order, could slow the government's roll.

But like I say, that's not an issue here because they were already under contract and would have performed.
 
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SuseJ772
Posts: 1080
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Re: Updated: US Activates the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Mon Aug 23, 2021 4:17 am

wjcandee wrote:
Adipocere wrote:
Hypothetically, what would happen if an airline were to refuse? Would people with guns come by and make off with the airplane? I can’t see how the “compel” part of the CRAF would work..


It's sort of moot in this case, since these guys would have done it without being activated, under their existing contracts, but the answer is that there are plenty of less-aggressive measures that could be brought to bear to bring them to heel. Loss of various opportunities, licenses, permits, certificates, etc., but that's unlikely. Most of the time, there's no real pushback if the instruction is possible and legal. If the airline had a real problem with it, and a legitimate beef, a lawsuit, maybe coupled with a temporary restraining order, could slow the government's roll.

But like I say, that's not an issue here because they were already under contract and would have performed.


I know you know this, but to add some clarity on loss of “opportunities,” you would certainly be kicked out of CRAF, and you would likely lose all future government flying. This is a TON of revenue for all airlines. But this concept isn’t just airlines. It is all government contractors. You would at a bare minimum be “cancelled for cause” which is the death nail for ever getting any business ever again from Uncle Sam.

Ps wjcandee, I really enjoyed your insight on all this. You’ve been around a long time (like me) and you’ll remember when this site was truly great. We had so many people offering such great insight. Every once in a while that greatness returns on a topic, and your contribution to this thread is certainly that. Don’t let all these people say your being too sensitive or you don’t know what you are talking about. Thanks. I learned a lot.
 
n797mx
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Re: US Considering Activating the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Mon Aug 23, 2021 4:17 am

travaz wrote:
I see DL 8822 in route DTW FRA This is Tail # N504Dn an A359

https://www.flightradar24.com/54.52,-62.56/8#

Looks to be a troop charter as it's heading to Ramstein.

I also doubt they'd want to send a basically new aircraft on a mission as "risky" as this.
 
Boof02671
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Re: US Considering Activating the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Mon Aug 23, 2021 4:22 am

n797mx wrote:
travaz wrote:
I see DL 8822 in route DTW FRA This is Tail # N504Dn an A359

https://www.flightradar24.com/54.52,-62.56/8#

Looks to be a troop charter as it's heading to Ramstein.

I also doubt they'd want to send a basically new aircraft on a mission as "risky" as this.

Evacuees will be sent to Ramstein after first being flown to Qatar and other US bases in the area.

Ramstein has the capability to house up to 10,000.

And the age of a plane has zero to do if it will be sent. And those planes are not going into Kabul.

There isn’t a chance of being attacked.
 
travaz
Topic Author
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Re: Updated: US Activates the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Mon Aug 23, 2021 4:44 am

For anyone that has questions about CRAF Juan Browne give a good explanation (he is an AA 777 Captain and say he is willing and want to go and fly these missions) on his YouTube channel. If you have questions about CRAF he answers a lot of them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16V7VjRmxBY

Also Dittos on good vibes for wjcandee he as always taken the time to clearly and concisely answer my dumb questions. I salute you Sir!
 
jjbiv
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Re: Updated: US Activates the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Mon Aug 23, 2021 5:27 am

Boof02671 wrote:
NYCAAer wrote:
N792AN, an AA 772, just flew from DFW to SAT, unusual movement for a widebody. I suspect that it’s going to operate some of the missions in the Middle East.

Boeing has a maintenance facility at SAT


Boeing's San Antonio facility is located at SKF (Kelly Field). San Antonio International is home to VT Aerospace's San Antonio MRO facility.
 
sc1207
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Re: Updated: US Activates the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Mon Aug 23, 2021 5:48 am

Can somebody enlighten me on the logic of activating two HA planes? As far as I understand the DoD has to pay the carrier for the empty (or loaded) flights in and eventually out of the CRAF flying schedule right? Considering most of the flights will originate from XJD or RMS, wouldn't the DoD save a few pennies to activate planes based in the Continental US as they could save several thousand miles they pay for in the case of a flight from Hawaii to RMS compared to somewhere in US proper to RMS. Surely someone on the CRAF list can spare another two tails especially when activation is compulsory?
 
JibberJim
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Re: US Considering Activating the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Mon Aug 23, 2021 8:05 am

BarryH wrote:
From some of what I've read it appears the unions have clauses in their contract making staffing for missions like this voluntary and I'm sure on a different pay and work rules scale.


Surely the staffing can't be entirely voluntary, it would make the whole point of CRAF redundant (DoD activates all these planes, the pilots all say no, then there's no planes?)

Is the reality not voluntary up until the point that they don't have enough crew?
 
myki
Posts: 392
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Re: Updated: US Activates the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Mon Aug 23, 2021 8:25 am

I'm not across the ins and outs of CRAF and the intermediate points where they transit to get back to USA. Would it be possible to fly any aircraft in to AUH and use the US Pre-clearance facility there before flying off to IAD? It is pretty much sitting empty for about 20 hours a day.
 
bigb
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Re: US Considering Activating the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Mon Aug 23, 2021 8:44 am

JibberJim wrote:
BarryH wrote:
From some of what I've read it appears the unions have clauses in their contract making staffing for missions like this voluntary and I'm sure on a different pay and work rules scale.


Surely the staffing can't be entirely voluntary, it would make the whole point of CRAF redundant (DoD activates all these planes, the pilots all say no, then there's no planes?)

Is the reality not voluntary up until the point that they don't have enough crew?


It is voluntary and the compensation is usually enough to get folks to volunteer. At my shop, we have hazardous pay in our contract and we have the ability to opt in or out of hazardous flying.
 
DLPMMM
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Re: US Considering Activating the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Mon Aug 23, 2021 8:47 am

JibberJim wrote:
BarryH wrote:
From some of what I've read it appears the unions have clauses in their contract making staffing for missions like this voluntary and I'm sure on a different pay and work rules scale.


Surely the staffing can't be entirely voluntary, it would make the whole point of CRAF redundant (DoD activates all these planes, the pilots all say no, then there's no planes?)

Is the reality not voluntary up until the point that they don't have enough crew?


Using the UA FA contract as an example, (section 10) the flight attendants get an extra $4 per hour. Working the flights is considered mandatory in the contract between the Union and the company, but I’m sure the pay addition makes it easy to get volunteers.

Just google “union contract CRAF”
 
AntonioMartin
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Re: Updated: US Activates the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Mon Aug 23, 2021 8:52 am

I wonder...why 4 United and 3 of the other airlines? Why not just 3 each or 4 each or is it because they needed 13 aircraft specifically?

Also what if some crazy Taliban sees a US airplane and decides to attack it??
 
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scbriml
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Re: Updated: US Activates the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Mon Aug 23, 2021 8:58 am

AntonioMartin wrote:
I wonder...why 4 United and 3 of the other airlines? Why not just 3 each or 4 each or is it because they needed 13 aircraft specifically?

Also what if some crazy Taliban sees a US airplane and decides to attack it??


It's been stated many times in the thread already that the CRAF planes will not be flying into Afghanistan. USAF will ferry evacuees out of Afghanistan and then they'll transfer to CRAF flights to get to the US.
 
AntonioMartin
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Re: Updated: US Activates the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Mon Aug 23, 2021 10:20 am

scbriml wrote:
AntonioMartin wrote:
I wonder...why 4 United and 3 of the other airlines? Why not just 3 each or 4 each or is it because they needed 13 aircraft specifically?

Also what if some crazy Taliban sees a US airplane and decides to attack it??


It's been stated many times in the thread already that the CRAF planes will not be flying into Afghanistan. USAF will ferry evacuees out of Afghanistan and then they'll transfer to CRAF flights to get to the US.

Ohh ok I didn't read that part....

But still why 4 of United? And not 3 like the other airlines?
 
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BA744PHX
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Re: Updated: US Activates the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Mon Aug 23, 2021 10:37 am

AntonioMartin wrote:
scbriml wrote:
AntonioMartin wrote:
I wonder...why 4 United and 3 of the other airlines? Why not just 3 each or 4 each or is it because they needed 13 aircraft specifically?

Also what if some crazy Taliban sees a US airplane and decides to attack it??


It's been stated many times in the thread already that the CRAF planes will not be flying into Afghanistan. USAF will ferry evacuees out of Afghanistan and then they'll transfer to CRAF flights to get to the US.

Ohh ok I didn't read that part....

But still why 4 of United? And not 3 like the other airlines?


It could be aircraft availability who knows, why does it matter 3 or 4 not much of a difference
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Updated: US Activates the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Mon Aug 23, 2021 10:41 am

There's no need for personal attacks. Please just stick to the discussion.

I also highly advise users posting here to actually read some of the articles prior to posting — some simple questions or statements posed here could be quickly resolved by making one's self familiar with some of the background.

✈️ atcsundevil
 
889091
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Re: Updated: US Activates the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Mon Aug 23, 2021 10:47 am

Is baggage also carried in the cargo hold or is it hand carry only?
 
737900ER
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Re: Updated: US Activates the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Mon Aug 23, 2021 11:16 am

Has anyone figured out which HA frames are going? Looks like all their A332s are flying as normal today except for one in maintenance at SIN.
 
peterinlisbon
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Re: Updated: US Activates the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Mon Aug 23, 2021 12:26 pm

I wonder if they couldn't just reach an agreement with Emirates to run a shuttle between Dubai and Atlanta or something like that. They have plenty of A380s sitting idle.
 
bigb
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Re: Updated: US Activates the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Mon Aug 23, 2021 12:34 pm

CRAF trips have started to appear in open time for us. Starting out at IAD.
 
DLPMMM
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Re: Updated: US Activates the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Mon Aug 23, 2021 12:37 pm

peterinlisbon wrote:
I wonder if they couldn't just reach an agreement with Emirates to run a shuttle between Dubai and Atlanta or something like that. They have plenty of A380s sitting idle.


The US government already has a standing agreement for as much lift as they want at reasonable prices at a moments notice without waiting for negotiations.

That is the whole point of the CRAF program.
 
USAirKid
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Re: Updated: US Activates the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Mon Aug 23, 2021 12:40 pm

Adipocere wrote:
Hypothetically, what would happen if an airline were to refuse? Would people with guns come by and make off with the airplane? I can’t see how the “compel” part of the CRAF would work..


When I researched this years ago, participating in CRAF is a requirement to participate in the GSA City Pairs program, which essentially is the US government’s normal travel procurement program. (E.g. If the SBA needs to have a meeting of regional leaders in Washington DC. The travel is procured through based on bids that have already been made though the City Pairs program.)

So while a carrier could refuse to follow the CRAF procurement order, they’d be risking future revenue from US Government employee travel.

I’m not sure how Atlas and OMNI birds are required to participate, but I’d guess it’s a requirement of their voluntary charter work with the military.
 
Tyroneguy
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Re: Updated: US Activates the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Mon Aug 23, 2021 12:42 pm

peterinlisbon wrote:
I wonder if they couldn't just reach an agreement with Emirates to run a shuttle between Dubai and Atlanta or something like that. They have plenty of A380s sitting idle.



CRAF flying is done by US carriers only.
 
USAirKid
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Re: Updated: US Activates the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Mon Aug 23, 2021 12:42 pm

peterinlisbon wrote:
I wonder if they couldn't just reach an agreement with Emirates to run a shuttle between Dubai and Atlanta or something like that. They have plenty of A380s sitting idle.


The US Government has a Buy American requirement, I’m sure there are some exceptions, but since this is work US carriers can do, they get the work.
 
Tyroneguy
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Re: US Considering Activating the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Mon Aug 23, 2021 12:45 pm

DLPMMM wrote:
JibberJim wrote:
BarryH wrote:
From some of what I've read it appears the unions have clauses in their contract making staffing for missions like this voluntary and I'm sure on a different pay and work rules scale.


Surely the staffing can't be entirely voluntary, it would make the whole point of CRAF redundant (DoD activates all these planes, the pilots all say no, then there's no planes?)

Is the reality not voluntary up until the point that they don't have enough crew?


Using the UA FA contract as an example, (section 10) the flight attendants get an extra $4 per hour. Working the flights is considered mandatory in the contract between the Union and the company, but I’m sure the pay addition makes it easy to get volunteers.

Just google “union contract CRAF”


It's not $4/hr. It's $5/hr. UA cabin crew.
The CRAF flying is put out for seniority bid (which closes today at noon). It's only mandatory if they don't get enough volunteers and then it goes in inverse seniority order.
 
AAIL86
Posts: 502
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Re: Updated: US Activates the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Mon Aug 23, 2021 1:20 pm

Adipocere wrote:
Hypothetically, what would happen if an airline were to refuse? Would people with guns come by and make off with the airplane? I can’t see how the “compel” part of the CRAF would work..


And risk the bad press that they refused to help move people, an effort clearly in the public interest? It’s not like these are unreasonable requests. The airlines have much more slack(especially widebodies) this year then usual and they will turn a small profit on this activity …
 
peterinlisbon
Posts: 1977
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Re: Updated: US Activates the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Mon Aug 23, 2021 1:22 pm

USAirKid wrote:
peterinlisbon wrote:
I wonder if they couldn't just reach an agreement with Emirates to run a shuttle between Dubai and Atlanta or something like that. They have plenty of A380s sitting idle.


The US Government has a Buy American requirement, I’m sure there are some exceptions, but since this is work US carriers can do, they get the work.


Ah, that's interesting. It does seem like they're actually inconveniencing American carriers though, rather than helping them.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Updated: US Activates the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Mon Aug 23, 2021 1:43 pm

peterinlisbon wrote:
USAirKid wrote:
peterinlisbon wrote:
I wonder if they couldn't just reach an agreement with Emirates to run a shuttle between Dubai and Atlanta or something like that. They have plenty of A380s sitting idle.


The US Government has a Buy American requirement, I’m sure there are some exceptions, but since this is work US carriers can do, they get the work.


Ah, that's interesting. It does seem like they're actually inconveniencing American carriers though, rather than helping them.


How is that? The intercon flight scheduling that sees widebodies is still very, very low. Has anybody done utilization math for current schedules on the AA/DL/UA/HA fleets? In 2019, UA's widebody block hours averaged 12.6 hours a day.

https://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/201 ... Unadjusted).htm

Maybe jayunited can update us on current utilization.
 
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Polot
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Re: Updated: US Activates the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Mon Aug 23, 2021 1:51 pm

peterinlisbon wrote:
USAirKid wrote:
peterinlisbon wrote:
I wonder if they couldn't just reach an agreement with Emirates to run a shuttle between Dubai and Atlanta or something like that. They have plenty of A380s sitting idle.


The US Government has a Buy American requirement, I’m sure there are some exceptions, but since this is work US carriers can do, they get the work.


Ah, that's interesting. It does seem like they're actually inconveniencing American carriers though, rather than helping them.

The government pays for the work and US carriers have plenty of wide body slack at the moment. Any “inconvenience” is just temporary as they have to quickly get flying ready and planes to where the DOD wants them.

It’s not like suddenly asking EK to activate and fly a ton of A380s is actually feasible and not an inconvenience either. They don’t have anyone to fly them.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: US Considering Activating the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Mon Aug 23, 2021 3:09 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
n797mx wrote:
travaz wrote:
I see DL 8822 in route DTW FRA This is Tail # N504Dn an A359

https://www.flightradar24.com/54.52,-62.56/8#

Looks to be a troop charter as it's heading to Ramstein.

I also doubt they'd want to send a basically new aircraft on a mission as "risky" as this.

Evacuees will be sent to Ramstein after first being flown to Qatar and other US bases in the area.

Ramstein has the capability to house up to 10,000.

And the age of a plane has zero to do if it will be sent. And those planes are not going into Kabul.

There isn’t a chance of being attacked.


I’d love to see a link showing Ramstein can house 10,000 people. I’ve been the fourth crew arriving and sent off-base. I doubt there’s room for tent city that big.
 
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hawaiian717
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Re: US Considering Activating the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Mon Aug 23, 2021 3:24 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
I’d love to see a link showing Ramstein can house 10,000 people. I’ve been the fourth crew arriving and sent off-base. I doubt there’s room for tent city that big.


This article (about the baby born just after landing) gives a capacity of 7,500:

A total of 7,100 evacuees from Afghanistan have arrived at the base so far, the Public Affairs Office at Ramstein Air Base told CNN on Monday. The base is nearing its capacity of 7,500, the office said, after 36 flights carrying evacuees landed in recent days.


https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/23/europe/a ... index.html
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Updated: US Activates the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Mon Aug 23, 2021 3:29 pm

Well, that mentions 7,500 but not where. I’ve been countless times when it was much more active base (Cold War and afterwards til 2005), there’s not enough hangars, billeting, open fields. The largest hangar fits two C-130s.
 
adam47150
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Re: Updated: US Activates the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Mon Aug 23, 2021 3:40 pm

Could they be including available capacity at LRMC into the 10,000 or 7,500 numbers?
 
JayinKitsap
Posts: 2694
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Re: Updated: US Activates the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Mon Aug 23, 2021 4:38 pm

peterinlisbon wrote:
USAirKid wrote:
peterinlisbon wrote:
I wonder if they couldn't just reach an agreement with Emirates to run a shuttle between Dubai and Atlanta or something like that. They have plenty of A380s sitting idle.


The US Government has a Buy American requirement, I’m sure there are some exceptions, but since this is work US carriers can do, they get the work.


Ah, that's interesting. It does seem like they're actually inconveniencing American carriers though, rather than helping them.


The carriers in CRAF signed up for it, teams of airlines bid annually for the contract. So it is DOD posting flight opportunities on the board and the airlines flying them. In the recent 'call up', DOD tags planes and crews they want that will then be dedicated to DOD for the period DOD wants them.
 
jeffrey0032j
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Re: Updated: US Activates the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Mon Aug 23, 2021 5:14 pm

USAirKid wrote:
peterinlisbon wrote:
I wonder if they couldn't just reach an agreement with Emirates to run a shuttle between Dubai and Atlanta or something like that. They have plenty of A380s sitting idle.


The US Government has a Buy American requirement, I’m sure there are some exceptions, but since this is work US carriers can do, they get the work.

This is much more than a Buy American for the sake of protectionism, but more of a national security requirement that requires trusted commercial partners.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2824
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Updated: US Activates the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Mon Aug 23, 2021 5:14 pm

JayinKitsap wrote:
peterinlisbon wrote:
USAirKid wrote:

The US Government has a Buy American requirement, I’m sure there are some exceptions, but since this is work US carriers can do, they get the work.


Ah, that's interesting. It does seem like they're actually inconveniencing American carriers though, rather than helping them.


The carriers in CRAF signed up for it, teams of airlines bid annually for the contract. So it is DOD posting flight opportunities on the board and the airlines flying them. In the recent 'call up', DOD tags planes and crews they want that will then be dedicated to DOD for the period DOD wants them.

CARES has ZERO to do with CRAF.

CRAF has been around since 1951 and all the Major US airlines belong to it. As they provided lift during Desert Shield and Desert Storm.

https://www.af.mil/About-Us/Fact-Sheets ... air-fleet/
Last edited by Boof02671 on Mon Aug 23, 2021 5:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2824
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Updated: US Activates the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Mon Aug 23, 2021 5:16 pm

USAirKid wrote:
Adipocere wrote:
Hypothetically, what would happen if an airline were to refuse? Would people with guns come by and make off with the airplane? I can’t see how the “compel” part of the CRAF would work..


When I researched this years ago, participating in CRAF is a requirement to participate in the GSA City Pairs program, which essentially is the US government’s normal travel procurement program. (E.g. If the SBA needs to have a meeting of regional leaders in Washington DC. The travel is procured through based on bids that have already been made though the City Pairs program.)

So while a carrier could refuse to follow the CRAF procurement order, they’d be risking future revenue from US Government employee travel.

I’m not sure how Atlas and OMNI birds are required to participate, but I’d guess it’s a requirement of their voluntary charter work with the military.

Atlas and Omni are already members of the CRAF program.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2824
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Updated: US Activates the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Mon Aug 23, 2021 5:19 pm

AAIL86 wrote:
Adipocere wrote:
Hypothetically, what would happen if an airline were to refuse? Would people with guns come by and make off with the airplane? I can’t see how the “compel” part of the CRAF would work..


And risk the bad press that they refused to help move people, an effort clearly in the public interest? It’s not like these are unreasonable requests. The airlines have much more slack(especially widebodies) this year then usual and they will turn a small profit on this activity …

Actually there isn’t a slack in the widebody fleets. AA, DL and UA retired widebodies and UA had 772s parked due to the engine problem.

And US carriers are using widebodies on domestic runs.
 
ScorpioMC3
Posts: 57
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Re: Updated: US Activates the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Mon Aug 23, 2021 5:57 pm

UA perspective- we have had an overwhelming number of pilots call into scheduling to fly CRAF. There is a LOA in their contract that governs how the trips are awarded.
Two flights have been impacted- a SFO-HNL-SFO round trip is canceled tomorrow due to the aircraft being utilized for CRAF flying.
 
B757capt
Posts: 1413
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 7:11 am

Re: Updated: US Activates the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Mon Aug 23, 2021 8:00 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
Planes4you wrote:
NYCAAer wrote:
N792AN, an AA 772, just flew from DFW to SAT, unusual movement for a widebody. I suspect that it’s going to operate some of the missions in the Middle East.



Lol no, American has a maintenance base in San Antonio.

AA doesn’t have a maintenance base at SAT, that would be Boeing.

AA only has maintenance bases (heavy maintenance) at CLT, PIT, TUL and PHX.

All other stations that have maintenance are line stations and some have line hangars.


AA uses VT Aerospace as a vendor for heavy Mtc in SAT and BFM. They also have lots of outsourced work at SAL, but you knew that.
 
Boof02671
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Re: Updated: US Activates the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Mon Aug 23, 2021 8:08 pm

B757capt wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Planes4you wrote:


Lol no, American has a maintenance base in San Antonio.

AA doesn’t have a maintenance base at SAT, that would be Boeing.

AA only has maintenance bases (heavy maintenance) at CLT, PIT, TUL and PHX.

All other stations that have maintenance are line stations and some have line hangars.


AA uses VT Aerospace as a vendor for heavy Mtc in SAT and BFM. They also have lots of outsourced work at SAL, but you knew that.

They also used Boeing at SAT for some 787 rework.
 
saab805
Posts: 18
Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2015 6:02 pm

Re: Updated: US Activates the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Mon Aug 23, 2021 8:52 pm

2 AA 772s currently scheduled to head out to FRA/RMS tonight/tomorrow.
 
maxholstemh1521
Posts: 42
Joined: Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:26 am

Re: Updated: US Activates the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Mon Aug 23, 2021 9:27 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
AAIL86 wrote:
Adipocere wrote:
Hypothetically, what would happen if an airline were to refuse? Would people with guns come by and make off with the airplane? I can’t see how the “compel” part of the CRAF would work..


And risk the bad press that they refused to help move people, an effort clearly in the public interest? It’s not like these are unreasonable requests. The airlines have much more slack(especially widebodies) this year then usual and they will turn a small profit on this activity …

Actually there isn’t a slack in the widebody fleets. AA, DL and UA retired widebodies and UA had 772s parked due to the engine problem.

And US carriers are using widebodies on domestic runs.


UA has not retired any widebodies since the 747 left the fleet.
 
travaz
Topic Author
Posts: 1141
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 1:03 am

Re: Updated: US Activates the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Mon Aug 23, 2021 9:30 pm

saab805 wrote:
2 AA 772s currently scheduled to head out to FRA/RMS tonight/tomorrow.


Where are the AA 772's departing from?
 
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Spacepope
Posts: 5554
Joined: Tue Dec 28, 1999 11:10 am

Re: Updated: US Activates the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Mon Aug 23, 2021 9:34 pm

maxholstemh1521 wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
AAIL86 wrote:

And risk the bad press that they refused to help move people, an effort clearly in the public interest? It’s not like these are unreasonable requests. The airlines have much more slack(especially widebodies) this year then usual and they will turn a small profit on this activity …

Actually there isn’t a slack in the widebody fleets. AA, DL and UA retired widebodies and UA had 772s parked due to the engine problem.

And US carriers are using widebodies on domestic runs.


UA has not retired any widebodies since the 747 left the fleet.


While your statement is technically true, they are also not flying revenue flights with any PW powered 772s, the A or ER models. That's a fair bit of sidelined capacity.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2824
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Updated: US Activates the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Mon Aug 23, 2021 9:43 pm

According air fleets UA has nine 767s parked and says 43 772s currently
 
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hawaiian717
Posts: 3571
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:46 am

Re: Updated: US Activates the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Mon Aug 23, 2021 9:46 pm

In my mind, the use of widebodies on domestic flights is indicative of slack in the system. International travel demand is way down, and the COVID-19 Delta variant has a good chance of pushing domestic travel demand down. And even without that, school is starting back up so it's around the time that summer travel demand would start to drop off anyway. I can see some short term cancellations over the next few days (like the SFO-HNL trip mentioned above) where it's too late to swap equipment, but I feel like there ought to be enough capacity among the airlines to cover once things are adjusted, either by increased utilization among the remaining widebody fleet or replacement of domestic widebody flying by narrowbodies.
 
mikeyp224
Posts: 61
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2015 6:52 pm

Re: Updated: US Activates the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Mon Aug 23, 2021 11:44 pm

travaz wrote:
saab805 wrote:
2 AA 772s currently scheduled to head out to FRA/RMS tonight/tomorrow.


Where are the AA 772's departing from?


JFK. N760AN and N755AN
 
flyguy1
Posts: 1784
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 1999 9:45 am

Re: Updated: US Activates the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Mon Aug 23, 2021 11:46 pm

travaz wrote:
saab805 wrote:
2 AA 772s currently scheduled to head out to FRA/RMS tonight/tomorrow.


Where are the AA 772's departing from?


AA9900: JFK-FRA

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