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travaz
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Updated: US Activates the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Sun Aug 22, 2021 2:03 am

The WSJ and CNBC are reporting that the Pentagon is considering activating CRAF to assist with the evacuation of Afghanistan. Does anyone know what the Airlines are paid for providing these flights? Is it regular charter rates or pre negotiated rates? Also it might be a struggle as the Airlines have to provide 4 crews for each Aircraft used by CRAF.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/21/us-weig ... forts.html
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: US Considering Activating the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Sun Aug 22, 2021 2:24 am

They’ll get the crews, CRAF flying pays well for the crews.
 
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spinkid
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Re: US Considering Activating the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Sun Aug 22, 2021 2:49 am

I think they will be fine on crews, assuming the typical airlines like Omni and Eastern do a lot of the lift. Although with Covid there are more heavy airframes not in use with the majors, however many have been put into cargo use so this should be interesting.
 
aden23
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Re: US Considering Activating the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Sun Aug 22, 2021 3:07 am

Why would the airlines get paid anything?

They got $15 billion in taxpayer bailout money last year, pretty sure they can afford to run a few lifesaving flights as a thank you.
 
travaz
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Re: US Considering Activating the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Sun Aug 22, 2021 3:09 am

Think of what you will of Sam Chui but this video just dropped with footage of an AN-28 and PIA 320 leaving Kabul. Both pilots give a eyewitness account about flying out of Kabul. The PIA flight took off when there was no ATC. Its a very interesting video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uIXQvIt9F0
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: US Considering Activating the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Sun Aug 22, 2021 4:06 am

aden23 wrote:
Why would the airlines get paid anything?

Because of this thing called the US Constitution:
whose 5th Amendment contains a Takings Clause that prevents the government from confiscating private property without just compensation, and whose 13th Amendment prevents appropriation of labor against one's will; even if both are preemptively waived by contract.
Last edited by LAX772LR on Sun Aug 22, 2021 4:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Boof02671
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Re: US Considering Activating the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Sun Aug 22, 2021 4:11 am

aden23 wrote:
Why would the airlines get paid anything?

They got $15 billion in taxpayer bailout money last year, pretty sure they can afford to run a few lifesaving flights as a thank you.

Because that was payroll support not to pay for the CRAF use.

Here is how it works

https://www.amc.af.mil/About-Us/Fact-Sh ... air-fleet/
 
wjcandee
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Re: US Considering Activating the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Sun Aug 22, 2021 4:21 am

As a long-time CRAF nerd, I can tell you that it's possible that whatever airlines will voluntarily provide aircraft for whatever the DoD needs. The CRAF activation is a bit of a PITA for them, and if they can just handle the business like regular DoD charters, which they do all the time, it's probably easier for all. All the airlines are already CRAF members, they've already signed the agreements, the reimbursment rates and methodologies are the same whether it's activated or not, I believe, and not doing an activation means less hassle for all.

Most-likely, if US Transcom, having issued the warning, requests the Long Range International Segment teams to step up and service these ad hoc requirements under their "peacetime" agreements and awards, which have plenty of room in them to meet even this need, the teams will find a way to do it. The pax carriers in those teams include Atlas, Omni, National, AA, UA, and DL. Atlas has pax 747s that can be used on these missions; perhaps one purpose of using the stick of a potential activation is to get them to pull people from their profitable 747 cargo missions in order to fly their pax 747 aircraft with sufficient utilization to satisfy DoD. Atlas has to know that if there's an activation, the tail numbers of those passenger-configured 747s, and 4 crews each, are gonna be the first to be designated. (You activate CRAF aircraft by tail number. Absent an activation, the airline chooses what tails of that size to fly.)

I noted in another thread the other day that National's A330, which had until-then been chartered by DoD exclusively on domestic missions, was on its way across the pond on an internatinoal military mission. Another DoD carrier (which shields its aircraft normally, but there are ways to monitor nevertheless), has been for over a week shifting its fleet to move through SOF and DOH. So the usual contractors got working on this pretty-quickly when things went sideways.

This is likely more about showing the "stick" of an activation to get the airlines to snap to attention. Probably will work with a carrot. It's also a way to score easy political points: "See, we're using the Defense Production Act!! We're serious about this!!" That the wsj story on this mentioned the DPA is a clue that the WH fed that to them to show how serious they are. Most people who know about the CRAF program don't connect it to the DPA, but with all the kerfuffle last year about the DPA, more regular people know about it as something the gov't can use to make businesses do stuff. I'm actually a little-surprised that they're making a big deal about it now, because it reinforces a storyline that they hadn't sufficently planned, but whatever.

Atlas, Omni, National and the lesser CRAF team operating members (e.g. Eastern) are already actively-engaged, so it stands to reason that DoD is gonna need some commercial lift. DL is already flying some charters for them.

It will be interesting to see what they actually do.
Last edited by wjcandee on Sun Aug 22, 2021 4:47 am, edited 4 times in total.
 
wjcandee
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Re: US Considering Activating the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Sun Aug 22, 2021 5:09 am

travaz wrote:
Does anyone know what the Airlines are paid for providing these flights? Is it regular charter rates or pre negotiated rates?


The rates aren't negotiated. Every year, every CRAF member makes a submission to DoD of their "actual" costs of running their operations, using the same methodology that they used to use to show their costs to the CAB, back when it regulated and determined airfares on a given city-pair. The DoD then takes all the submissions, by groups of aircraft size and capability, and determines a per-pax-mile and per-ton-mile rate that it's gonna pay the participants when they fly. It's supposed to be based on an actual average cost, plus a fair markup. There aren't really "negotiations", but what does happen is that DoD will ask the airlines for a lot of clarifications of their submissions (i.e. challenge them), and will publish their anticipated rate for comments or challenges, which DoD then rules on, subequently issuing final rates for that year. There are add-ons and deductions for loitering time, for ferry-in empty, for ferry-in full, etc. Everybody who flies gets paid for their missions at this same rate within aircraft groups. DoD publishes requirements based on anticipated needs ("CLins"), so they may need to move 200 pax from A to B and so will publish a, say, 220-pax requirement. They'll pay you based on 220 pax whether you provide a 220-pax aircraft or a 400-pax aircraft, and whether they utlimately put 220 pax on it or 5 pax on it (but they'll never exceed the CLin, so that's why they may specify 220 when they're anticipating 200.)

The rate assumes a cost-per-gallon of fuel, but a couple of times per year the DoD calculates a fuel-price adjustment to bring the assumption closer to reality.

Because the rate is what the rate is, and majors used to have much-higher costs than the charter carriers, they formed "teams" to do the work. (I'm talking about Long-Range International here.) So the higher costs of the majors, when added to the mix, cause the rate to be very-profitable if run by a lower-cost charter carrier. Using a team approach allows all participants to benefit from this, because under the team approach, the lower-cost carriers do most of the flying but pay a "commission" back to the team.

Peacetime flying entitlements are based on the number of planes (and their capability) each carrier commits to the CRAF, calculated as Mobilization Value Points. So, say, United joins a ream and commits all its suitable aircraft, the team gets credit for all those MVPs. The teams then get awards of peacetime flying based on the ratio of their team's MVPs to the total number of MVPs. It doesn't matter to DoD who in the team does the flying, so normally the charter carriers do the flying for the team and, as noted, pay "commissions" back to the team for the work. So United gets paid for contributing its aircraft without having to do any actual flying. As the delta between the charter carriers' expenses and the majors' expenses has diminished over the last decade or so, the functioning of the teams based on that spread has become a little-less profitable, but it still works and they still do it. When the majors have more availability, and the need exists, they will take some of the team's actual flying as well.

Given this, as I said in the post above, the potential-activation notice to the airlines is a loud hint to them that they need to answer the phone when the team calls looking for aircraft for a vastly-increased number of missions being floated by DoD to the teams. If they do, no need for activation. If they don't, they may find that DoD continues to push most of the work to the teams, but activates specific tail numbers at their airline, and those aircraft and four crews each are assigned EXCLUSIVELY to DoD for as long as it feels like it wants them. Naturally, that's sub-optimal for the airlines, so I suspect that they will play ball and activation won't be necessary, unless someone wants some political credit or one airline is unusually-obstinant.
 
QF41
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Re: US Considering Activating the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Sun Aug 22, 2021 6:00 am

Sorry for my ignorance, but what is CRAF?
 
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B727skyguy
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Re: US Considering Activating the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Sun Aug 22, 2021 6:26 am

QF41 wrote:
Sorry for my ignorance, but what is CRAF?

Civil Reserve Air Fleet
 
Boof02671
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Re: US Considering Activating the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Sun Aug 22, 2021 6:26 am

QF41 wrote:
Sorry for my ignorance, but what is CRAF?

Here you go

https://www.amc.af.mil/About-Us/Fact-Sh ... air-fleet/

Basically the government charters commercial US airlines and the airlines that participate in the CRAF can’t refuse not too.
 
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SamYeager2016
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Re: US Considering Activating the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Sun Aug 22, 2021 6:40 am

wjcandee wrote:
As a long-time CRAF nerd

Thanks for your posts in this thread explaining the background to CRAF and how it tends to work in practice. :bigthumbsup:
 
Boof02671
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Re: US Considering Activating the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Sun Aug 22, 2021 7:11 am

Back in the day we converted a US Air 767-200ER into a flying “hospital “ for Desert Storm then converted back to passenger configuration
 
GA330
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Re: US Considering Activating the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Sun Aug 22, 2021 12:27 pm

CRAF has been activated
3 each from AA, DL, Atlas and Omni, 2 from HA, 4 from UA total of 18.
Will fly from the intermediate points where the US military has been dropping people off from Afghanistan.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/22/biden-a ... fleet.html
 
gwrudolph
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Re: US Considering Activating the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Sun Aug 22, 2021 12:55 pm

GA330 wrote:
CRAF has been activated
3 each from AA, DL, Atlas and Omni, 2 from HA, 4 from UA total of 18.
Will fly from the intermediate points where the US military has been dropping people off from Afghanistan.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/22/biden-a ... fleet.html


Might be challenging for UA. With the PW 777s on the ground, my guess is their remaining widebody fleet has to stretched pretty thin right now.
 
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flee
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Re: US Considering Activating the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Sun Aug 22, 2021 12:57 pm

GA330 wrote:
CRAF has been activated
3 each from AA, DL, Atlas and Omni, 2 from HA, 4 from UA total of 18.
Will fly from the intermediate points where the US military has been dropping people off from Afghanistan.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/22/biden-a ... fleet.html

Good - that will mean those intermediate points won't fill up and stop taking refugees.

Too bad no A380s are involved! We saw them used for evacuating the Thomas Cook collapse victims!
 
MIflyer12
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Re: US Considering Activating the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Sun Aug 22, 2021 12:59 pm

flee wrote:
Too bad no A380s are involved!


I don't believe non-U.S. carriers participate in CRAF.

Given wjcandee's remark that aircraft are activated by tail number, do we know what types by carrier have now been activated?
 
wjcandee
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Re: US Considering Activating the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Sun Aug 22, 2021 1:31 pm

My own view, now that the activation took place in time for the Sunday political shows, and the nature of the activation, leads me to believe that this is an unnecessary political stunt. Activating 3 Omni aircraft when virtually their entire 16-aircraft fleet is already flying for the DoD on this mission, and willing always to bend over backwards for the DoD, suggests to me that they're just trying to look tough. The constant references to the Defense Production Act in the article just reinforces that. In my view, this is a government that's trying to look sharp, and trying to look like it's taking extraordinary steps, when those steps are wholly-unnecessary. THREE aircraft? All those carriers would happily have provided those aircraft and crews without a CRAF activation. This is optics. I'm guessing the folks at Scott Air Force Base are telling their counterparts at the carriers, "Sorry, sorry, sorry. This isn't coming from us."

And because there's no way for reporters to know all this background, they don't know to ask why it's necessary, or that the airlines would have provided this lift in due course if asked.

As to what frames are being activated, I assume the three 777s at Omni and a couple of similar aircraft the commercial carriers that have them, 747s at Atlas, and the like.
 
bourbon
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Re: US Considering Activating the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Sun Aug 22, 2021 1:59 pm

wjcandee wrote:
My own view, now that the activation took place in time for the Sunday political shows, and the nature of the activation, leads me to believe that this is an unnecessary political stunt. Activating 3 Omni aircraft when virtually their entire 16-aircraft fleet is already flying for the DoD on this mission, and willing always to bend over backwards for the DoD, suggests to me that they're just trying to look tough. The constant references to the Defense Production Act in the article just reinforces that. In my view, this is a government that's trying to look sharp, and trying to look like it's taking extraordinary steps, when those steps are wholly-unnecessary. THREE aircraft? All those carriers would happily have provided those aircraft and crews without a CRAF activation. This is optics. I'm guessing the folks at Scott Air Force Base are telling their counterparts at the carriers, "Sorry, sorry, sorry. This isn't coming from us."

And because there's no way for reporters to know all this background, they don't know to ask why it's necessary, or that the airlines would have provided this lift in due course if asked.

As to what frames are being activated, I assume the three 777s at Omni and a couple of similar aircraft the commercial carriers that have them, 747s at Atlas, and the like.

The big 3 were already preparing for RMS BAH and DOH lift.
 
wjcandee
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Re: US Considering Activating the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Sun Aug 22, 2021 2:02 pm

bourbon wrote:
The big 3 were already preparing for RMS BAH and DOH lift.


Thanks for the confirmation. The work is real, and necessary, but the activation, IMHO, is a pathetic PR stunt.

I just fed the WSJ reporter the analogy that it's like Clint Eastwood commandeering a car in the middle of the street during some chase in a Dirty Harry movie, when there's a willing taxi waving at him in the next lane, and a Zipcar parked right there at the curb.

(Thank goodness Deadpool rides in a taxi. SO much less drama...)
Last edited by wjcandee on Sun Aug 22, 2021 2:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Boof02671
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Re: US Considering Activating the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Sun Aug 22, 2021 2:06 pm

wjcandee wrote:
My own view, now that the activation took place in time for the Sunday political shows, and the nature of the activation, leads me to believe that this is an unnecessary political stunt. Activating 3 Omni aircraft when virtually their entire 16-aircraft fleet is already flying for the DoD on this mission, and willing always to bend over backwards for the DoD, suggests to me that they're just trying to look tough. The constant references to the Defense Production Act in the article just reinforces that. In my view, this is a government that's trying to look sharp, and trying to look like it's taking extraordinary steps, when those steps are wholly-unnecessary. THREE aircraft? All those carriers would happily have provided those aircraft and crews without a CRAF activation. This is optics. I'm guessing the folks at Scott Air Force Base are telling their counterparts at the carriers, "Sorry, sorry, sorry. This isn't coming from us."

And because there's no way for reporters to know all this background, they don't know to ask why it's necessary, or that the airlines would have provided this lift in due course if asked.

As to what frames are being activated, I assume the three 777s at Omni and a couple of similar aircraft the commercial carriers that have them, 747s at Atlas, and the like.

Airlines make more money flying passengers and cargo than CRAF flights and with most of the US majors parked wide and narrow bodies, shortage of crews and the set up for maintenance etc on CRAF flights are a pain.

You have to set up fly away kits for tires, and other parts that are most likely to be needed and each airline has to send its own mechanics on CRAF flights also.

It’s not as easy as you all think. During the call up during both desert storms we to base mechanics at Ramstein and when they flew into Kuwait City every flight has two mechanics on it.
 
wjcandee
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Re: US Considering Activating the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Sun Aug 22, 2021 2:09 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
Airlines make more money flying passengers and cargo than CRAF flights and with most of the US majors parked wide and narrow bodies, shortage of crews and the set up for maintenance etc on CRAF flights are a pain.

You have to set up fly away kits for tires, and other parts that are most likely to be needed and each airline has to send its own mechanics on CRAF flights also.

It’s not as easy as you all think. During the call up during both desert storms we to base mechanics at Ramstein and when they flew into Kuwait City every flight has two mechanics on it.


I'm not saying it's not hard. I'm saying that it's unnecessary to activate CRAF when the airlines aren't pushing back on the voluntary requests to the teams, as is normal in peactime. Does anybody think that Delta wouldn't have willingly set up to provide 3 aircraft when the alternative was an activation pursuant to which they lose the aircraft and crews to the EXCLUSIVE use of DoD for as long as DoD wants? They're already flying charters for them voluntarily re Afghanistan.
 
Boof02671
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Re: US Considering Activating the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Sun Aug 22, 2021 2:15 pm

wjcandee wrote:
bourbon wrote:
The big 3 were already preparing for RMS BAH and DOH lift.


Thanks for the confirmation. The work is real, and necessary, but the activation, IMHO, is a pathetic PR stunt.

I just fed the WSJ reporter the analogy that it's like Clint Eastwood commandeering a car in the middle of the street during some chase in a Dirty Harry movie, when there's a willing taxi waving at him in the next lane, and a Zipcar parked right there at the curb.

(Thank goodness Deadpool rides in a taxi. SO much less drama...)

Seriously? A PR stunt?

Just SMH. It’s not a stunt. The Armed Forces doesn’t have the lift to move tens of thousands of people that’s why the CRAF program exists.
 
Boof02671
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Re: US Considering Activating the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Sun Aug 22, 2021 2:17 pm

wjcandee wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Airlines make more money flying passengers and cargo than CRAF flights and with most of the US majors parked wide and narrow bodies, shortage of crews and the set up for maintenance etc on CRAF flights are a pain.

You have to set up fly away kits for tires, and other parts that are most likely to be needed and each airline has to send its own mechanics on CRAF flights also.

It’s not as easy as you all think. During the call up during both desert storms we to base mechanics at Ramstein and when they flew into Kuwait City every flight has two mechanics on it.


I'm not saying it's not hard. I'm saying that it's unnecessary to activate CRAF when the airlines aren't pushing back on the voluntary requests to the teams, as is normal in peactime. Does anybody think that Delta wouldn't have willingly set up to provide 3 aircraft when the alternative was an activation pursuant to which they lose the aircraft and crews to the EXCLUSIVE use of DoD for as long as DoD wants? They're already flying charters for them voluntarily re Afghanistan.

Has to with liability, insurance and how the programs exist. Airlines make more money flying passengers and cargo and has less risks than being in the use for CRAF flights.
 
wjcandee
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Re: US Considering Activating the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Sun Aug 22, 2021 2:29 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
Just SMH. It’s not a stunt. The Armed Forces doesn’t have the lift to move tens of thousands of people that’s why the CRAF program exists.


Read my post again.

I said the work is necessary. I said that the contracts, contacts, relationships, and willingness to do this work already exist WITHOUT the need to commandeer aircraft with an activation. The reason they activated during Desert Storm was that some carriers resisted and played chicken with Bush. That didn't happen here.

As another member pointed out, the Big 3 airlines already were gearing up to do these flights voluntarily and pursuant to their existing contracts with DoD/CRAF, without the need for an official activation.

I'm not saying that hiring commerical aircraft is a stunt, or using them pursuant to the normal peacetime CRAF procedures is a stunt. I'm specifically saying that commandeering the aircraft, through a CRAF ACTIVATION of SPECIFIC TAIL NUMBERS is a stunt, when their owners were already willing to fly them. DoD is activating aircraft that are ALREADY BEING USED on these missions VOLUNTARILY. That's why it's a stunt.

The reason that the article described ACTIVATION as "rare" is that it is "rare" that the CRAF program doesn't produce the necessary aircraft VOLUNTARILY and in the ordinary course. This is politicians trying to look sharp, like they know how to move the levers of government.

If you don't agree, that's fine. I don't want this thread to drift and have all my hard work erased by the mods.
Last edited by wjcandee on Sun Aug 22, 2021 2:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
jayunited
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Re: US Considering Activating the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Sun Aug 22, 2021 2:36 pm

gwrudolph wrote:
GA330 wrote:
CRAF has been activated
3 each from AA, DL, Atlas and Omni, 2 from HA, 4 from UA total of 18.
Will fly from the intermediate points where the US military has been dropping people off from Afghanistan.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/22/biden-a ... fleet.html


Might be challenging for UA. With the PW 777s on the ground, my guess is their remaining widebody fleet has to stretched pretty thin right now.


United is just fine in fact we already have begun flying missions, United re-positioned a 77W 2 days ago over to Germany in anticipation of this. That 77W is already at a US military base in Germany and it is operating flights between Germany and a military base in Qatar XJD and a second 77W will join the efforts later this week. Beginning today United is flying out military, defense department contractors and civilians who have been relocated out of Afghanistan to Qatar out of Qatar to either Germany or to the United States. United will operate several HHN-XJD-HHN missions, an XJD-IAD-RMS mission and and several RMS-IAD-RMS missions in fact looking at the schedule United will operate 7 total round trips RMS-IAD-RMS. United is doing all of this while still continuing to operate our entire scheduled passenger service widebody schedule. This CRAF flying is also in addition to United's already scheduled military flying this doesn't replace what we already had on the books with the US military.

United's widebody fleet isn't as thin or the schedule as tight as you're trying to make it seem we are doing our part to support the troops and US governments civilian evacuations during this time.
 
ScorpioMC3
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Re: US Considering Activating the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Sun Aug 22, 2021 3:00 pm

jayunited wrote:
gwrudolph wrote:
GA330 wrote:
CRAF has been activated
3 each from AA, DL, Atlas and Omni, 2 from HA, 4 from UA total of 18.
Will fly from the intermediate points where the US military has been dropping people off from Afghanistan.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/22/biden-a ... fleet.html


Might be challenging for UA. With the PW 777s on the ground, my guess is their remaining widebody fleet has to stretched pretty thin right now.


United is just fine in fact we already have begun flying missions, United re-positioned a 77W 2 days ago over to Germany in anticipation of this. That 77W is already at a US military base in Germany and it is operating flights between Germany and a military base in Qatar XJD and a second 77W will join the efforts later this week. Beginning today United is flying out military, defense department contractors and civilians who have been relocated out of Afghanistan to Qatar out of Qatar to either Germany or to the United States. United will operate several HHN-XJD-HHN missions, an XJD-IAD-RMS mission and and several RMS-IAD-RMS missions in fact looking at the schedule United will operate 7 total round trips RMS-IAD-RMS. United is doing all of this while still continuing to operate our entire scheduled passenger service widebody schedule. This CRAF flying is also in addition to United's already scheduled military flying this doesn't replace what we already had on the books with the US military.

United's widebody fleet isn't as thin or the schedule as tight as you're trying to make it seem we are doing our part to support the troops and US governments civilian evacuations during this time.


Yeah we are currently working on crewing another military charter trip right now actually lol.
 
ikramerica
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Re: US Considering Activating the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Sun Aug 22, 2021 3:08 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
bourbon wrote:
The big 3 were already preparing for RMS BAH and DOH lift.


Thanks for the confirmation. The work is real, and necessary, but the activation, IMHO, is a pathetic PR stunt.

I just fed the WSJ reporter the analogy that it's like Clint Eastwood commandeering a car in the middle of the street during some chase in a Dirty Harry movie, when there's a willing taxi waving at him in the next lane, and a Zipcar parked right there at the curb.

(Thank goodness Deadpool rides in a taxi. SO much less drama...)

Seriously? A PR stunt?

Just SMH. It’s not a stunt. The Armed Forces doesn’t have the lift to move tens of thousands of people that’s why the CRAF program exists.

It’s absolutely a stunt for the admin in that they already had the program ready to do this “voluntarily.”
And all the admin needed to announce is that they are working with all carriers to bring people. It would have looked better for the airlines. Now it looks like they were “forced” to help when they weren’t willing.
 
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NameOmitted
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Re: US Considering Activating the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Sun Aug 22, 2021 3:08 pm

wjcandee wrote:


First, thank you for your posts.

What are the insurance/liability implications of CRAF vs. Charter flights?
 
Boof02671
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Re: US Considering Activating the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Sun Aug 22, 2021 3:40 pm

jayunited wrote:
gwrudolph wrote:
GA330 wrote:
CRAF has been activated
3 each from AA, DL, Atlas and Omni, 2 from HA, 4 from UA total of 18.
Will fly from the intermediate points where the US military has been dropping people off from Afghanistan.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/22/biden-a ... fleet.html


Might be challenging for UA. With the PW 777s on the ground, my guess is their remaining widebody fleet has to stretched pretty thin right now.


United is just fine in fact we already have begun flying missions, United re-positioned a 77W 2 days ago over to Germany in anticipation of this. That 77W is already at a US military base in Germany and it is operating flights between Germany and a military base in Qatar XJD and a second 77W will join the efforts later this week. Beginning today United is flying out military, defense department contractors and civilians who have been relocated out of Afghanistan to Qatar out of Qatar to either Germany or to the United States. United will operate several HHN-XJD-HHN missions, an XJD-IAD-RMS mission and and several RMS-IAD-RMS missions in fact looking at the schedule United will operate 7 total round trips RMS-IAD-RMS. United is doing all of this while still continuing to operate our entire scheduled passenger service widebody schedule. This CRAF flying is also in addition to United's already scheduled military flying this doesn't replace what we already had on the books with the US military.

United's widebody fleet isn't as thin or the schedule as tight as you're trying to make it seem we are doing our part to support the troops and US governments civilian evacuations during this time.

They have to activate the CRAF in order to do this. The Government isnt doing regular charters. Once again it has to be activated for liability, insurance and payment.

Don’t understand why you aren’t comprehending how it works.
 
EWRamp
Posts: 90
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:46 pm

Re: US Considering Activating the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Sun Aug 22, 2021 3:42 pm

UA2586 operating under the callsign "Camber" 547 currently enroute from Hahn to Ar Rayyan... 777-300ER Ship number N2352U

https://www.flightradar24.com/CMB547/28df9870
 
jayunited
Posts: 3608
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

Re: US Considering Activating the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Sun Aug 22, 2021 3:58 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
jayunited wrote:
gwrudolph wrote:

Might be challenging for UA. With the PW 777s on the ground, my guess is their remaining widebody fleet has to stretched pretty thin right now.


United is just fine in fact we already have begun flying missions, United re-positioned a 77W 2 days ago over to Germany in anticipation of this. That 77W is already at a US military base in Germany and it is operating flights between Germany and a military base in Qatar XJD and a second 77W will join the efforts later this week. Beginning today United is flying out military, defense department contractors and civilians who have been relocated out of Afghanistan to Qatar out of Qatar to either Germany or to the United States. United will operate several HHN-XJD-HHN missions, an XJD-IAD-RMS mission and and several RMS-IAD-RMS missions in fact looking at the schedule United will operate 7 total round trips RMS-IAD-RMS. United is doing all of this while still continuing to operate our entire scheduled passenger service widebody schedule. This CRAF flying is also in addition to United's already scheduled military flying this doesn't replace what we already had on the books with the US military.

United's widebody fleet isn't as thin or the schedule as tight as you're trying to make it seem we are doing our part to support the troops and US governments civilian evacuations during this time.

They have to activate the CRAF in order to do this. The Government isnt doing regular charters. Once again it has to be activated for liability, insurance and payment.

Don’t understand why you aren’t comprehending how it works.


Perhaps United knows more about this operation than you do because we already have an aircraft a 77W (the same 77W we pre-positioned over to a US airbase in Germany 2 days ago) in the air operating HHN-XJD under the CRAF.

And by the way the military is still doing regular military charters and movements the US has military all over the world those movements don't stop simply because the US now has to evacuate Americans out of Afghanistan. United is doing both CRAF flying and military charters, get your facts straight and if you don't have the facts don't post a comment on another airlines operation as though you know what you are talking about.
Last edited by jayunited on Sun Aug 22, 2021 4:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 10014
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: US Considering Activating the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Sun Aug 22, 2021 3:59 pm

ikramerica wrote:
It’s absolutely a stunt for the admin in that they already had the program ready to do this “voluntarily.”
And all the admin needed to announce is that they are working with all carriers to bring people.


On short notice the U.S. military doesn't negotiate, it commands. It did so here through a long-defined mechanism and established commercial rates. Carriers participate in CRAF voluntarily. They know the deal.

When AA was told to provide three aircraft, it should have asked 'Sure you don't want 30?'
 
jrkmsp
Posts: 191
Joined: Sun May 14, 2017 1:33 am

Re: US Considering Activating the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Sun Aug 22, 2021 4:05 pm

These are the commercial tail numbers I’ve seen assigned to airlift flights so far. A lot of lift between Germany and Dulles, plus some lift from Qatar into Germany. It’ll be interesting to see if the CRAF activation expands to include domestic carriers to transport refugees around the US.

Delta
N810NW
N820NW
N504DN
N1201P

United
N2352U

Atlas
N649GT
 
jetmatt777
Posts: 4716
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:16 am

Re: US Considering Activating the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Sun Aug 22, 2021 4:06 pm

Who decides who gets to sit in the premium cabins on flights like this? Pure luck of the draw? Women and children or the elderly? I am sure they are all grateful for the flight so it likely doesn’t matter at all, just curious.

What about safety cards? Are temporary cards printed up real quick in the native language to accompany the permanent cards? Are translators assisting the flight attendants?
 
travaz
Topic Author
Posts: 1128
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 1:03 am

Re: US Considering Activating the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Sun Aug 22, 2021 4:07 pm

jayunited wrote:
gwrudolph wrote:
GA330 wrote:
CRAF has been activated
3 each from AA, DL, Atlas and Omni, 2 from HA, 4 from UA total of 18.
Will fly from the intermediate points where the US military has been dropping people off from Afghanistan.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/22/biden-a ... fleet.html


Might be challenging for UA. With the PW 777s on the ground, my guess is their remaining widebody fleet has to stretched pretty thin right now.


United is just fine in fact we already have begun flying missions, United re-positioned a 77W 2 days ago over to Germany in anticipation of this. That 77W is already at a US military base in Germany and it is operating flights between Germany and a military base in Qatar XJD and a second 77W will join the efforts later this week. Beginning today United is flying out military, defense department contractors and civilians who have been relocated out of Afghanistan to Qatar out of Qatar to either Germany or to the United States. United will operate several HHN-XJD-HHN missions, an XJD-IAD-RMS mission and and several RMS-IAD-RMS missions in fact looking at the schedule United will operate 7 total round trips RMS-IAD-RMS. United is doing all of this while still continuing to operate our entire scheduled passenger service widebody schedule. This CRAF flying is also in addition to United's already scheduled military flying this doesn't replace what we already had on the books with the US military.

United's widebody fleet isn't as thin or the schedule as tight as you're trying to make it seem we are doing our part to support the troops and US governments civilian evacuations during this time.


It seems that UAL is using 777's for the activation. Anyone want to hazard a guess on what types will be activated on AA and DL? 787 and 350's?
 
gwrudolph
Posts: 575
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 3:46 pm

Re: US Considering Activating the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Sun Aug 22, 2021 4:09 pm

jayunited wrote:
gwrudolph wrote:
GA330 wrote:
CRAF has been activated
3 each from AA, DL, Atlas and Omni, 2 from HA, 4 from UA total of 18.
Will fly from the intermediate points where the US military has been dropping people off from Afghanistan.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/22/biden-a ... fleet.html


Might be challenging for UA. With the PW 777s on the ground, my guess is their remaining widebody fleet has to stretched pretty thin right now.


United is just fine in fact we already have begun flying missions, United re-positioned a 77W 2 days ago over to Germany in anticipation of this. That 77W is already at a US military base in Germany and it is operating flights between Germany and a military base in Qatar XJD and a second 77W will join the efforts later this week. Beginning today United is flying out military, defense department contractors and civilians who have been relocated out of Afghanistan to Qatar out of Qatar to either Germany or to the United States. United will operate several HHN-XJD-HHN missions, an XJD-IAD-RMS mission and and several RMS-IAD-RMS missions in fact looking at the schedule United will operate 7 total round trips RMS-IAD-RMS. United is doing all of this while still continuing to operate our entire scheduled passenger service widebody schedule. This CRAF flying is also in addition to United's already scheduled military flying this doesn't replace what we already had on the books with the US military.

United's widebody fleet isn't as thin or the schedule as tight as you're trying to make it seem we are doing our part to support the troops and US governments civilian evacuations during this time.


Jayunited I wasn’t suggesting that UA or any other US carrier wouldn’t do what it should or has to do. I was merely hypothesizing that it might stretch the widebody fleet a bit thin given that the entire PW fleet is on the ground and the schedule is being ramped up a lot. Obviously as you work at United, you know better. I appreciate the additional insight on and stand down on my hypothesis, but no reason to be assuming about my intentions or rude to me.
 
travaz
Topic Author
Posts: 1128
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 1:03 am

Re: US Considering Activating the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Sun Aug 22, 2021 4:11 pm

I see DL 8822 in route DTW FRA This is Tail # N504Dn an A359

https://www.flightradar24.com/54.52,-62.56/8#
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2686
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: US Considering Activating the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Sun Aug 22, 2021 4:15 pm

jayunited wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
jayunited wrote:

United is just fine in fact we already have begun flying missions, United re-positioned a 77W 2 days ago over to Germany in anticipation of this. That 77W is already at a US military base in Germany and it is operating flights between Germany and a military base in Qatar XJD and a second 77W will join the efforts later this week. Beginning today United is flying out military, defense department contractors and civilians who have been relocated out of Afghanistan to Qatar out of Qatar to either Germany or to the United States. United will operate several HHN-XJD-HHN missions, an XJD-IAD-RMS mission and and several RMS-IAD-RMS missions in fact looking at the schedule United will operate 7 total round trips RMS-IAD-RMS. United is doing all of this while still continuing to operate our entire scheduled passenger service widebody schedule. This CRAF flying is also in addition to United's already scheduled military flying this doesn't replace what we already had on the books with the US military.

United's widebody fleet isn't as thin or the schedule as tight as you're trying to make it seem we are doing our part to support the troops and US governments civilian evacuations during this time.

They have to activate the CRAF in order to do this. The Government isnt doing regular charters. Once again it has to be activated for liability, insurance and payment.

Don’t understand why you aren’t comprehending how it works.


Perhaps United knows more about this operation than you do because we already have an aircraft a 77W (the same 77W we pre-positioned over to a US airbase in Germany 2 days ago) in the air operating HHN-XJD under the CRAF.

And by the way the military is still doing regular military charters and movements the US has military all over the world those movements don't stop simply because the US now has to evacuate Americans out of Afghanistan. United is doing both CRAF flying and military charters, get your facts straight and if you don't have the facts don't post a comment on another airlines operation as though you know what you are talking about.

I meant they aren’t using these planes as regular DOD charters, the evacuation flights will be under the CRAF as they will now have to follow this :

“ Under the program, commercial jets retain their Civil Status under FAA regulations. However, USTRANSCOM exercises mission control via the Air Mobility Command to support the DOD mission.”
 
User avatar
InnsbruckFlyer
Posts: 354
Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2017 1:35 pm

Re: US Considering Activating the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Sun Aug 22, 2021 4:20 pm

Anyone know which tails other than 2352U are being used?
Last edited by InnsbruckFlyer on Sun Aug 22, 2021 4:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
FlyHossD
Posts: 2213
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:45 pm

Re: US Considering Activating the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Sun Aug 22, 2021 4:21 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
FlyHossD wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
What’s SMH?


I believe that’s “smack my head” - which (to me) reinforces my deliberate lack of use of such internet acronyms. That is, wasn’t obvious to me either.

SMH is shaking my head


A perfect example of why internet shorthand is flawed - that is, months ago, I searched for SMH and "smack my head" was the result. So now we have multiple posts or replies about the meaning of SMH when the poster could have just written "shake my head," "shaking my head," or "smack my head" in the first place.

Yes, I know that my Catholic school grammar is both showing and is old fashioned. Yet grammar does matter to me and it's something that gets attention for applicants for our vacant positions when they arise.
 
travaz
Topic Author
Posts: 1128
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 1:03 am

Re: US Considering Activating the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Sun Aug 22, 2021 4:22 pm

Please can we have a good discussion on the in's and out's of CRAF and have some fun tracking the flights. Lets keep politics out of it.
 
User avatar
ClassicLover
Posts: 5284
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 12:27 pm

Re: US Considering Activating the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Sun Aug 22, 2021 4:26 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
What about safety cards? Are temporary cards printed up real quick in the native language to accompany the permanent cards? Are translators assisting the flight attendants?


Why would they need special safety cards? The airlines transport thousands of people each day who may not speak the language of the airline. That is why safety cards have pictures on them. There would be no additional accommodation in this regard.
 
889091
Posts: 366
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:56 pm

Re: Updated: US Activates the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Sun Aug 22, 2021 4:34 pm

Would the airlines participating in CRAF/activated by CRAF need to fly in an additional set of cockpit/cabin crew? Obviously, they can't overnight in a hotel in Kabul once they time out.
Last edited by 889091 on Sun Aug 22, 2021 4:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
atcsundevil
Moderator
Posts: 4607
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Re: Updated: US Activates the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Sun Aug 22, 2021 4:34 pm

Keep political flamebait out of this thread. Political comments belong in the Non Aviation Forum. Users will be warned and banned from this point forward.

✈️ atcsundevil
 
jmscsc
Posts: 99
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 1:09 pm

Re: US Considering Activating the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Sun Aug 22, 2021 4:37 pm

[quote="It seems that UAL is using 777's for the activation. Anyone want to hazard a guess on what types will be activated on AA and DL? 787 and 350's?[/quote]

Based on the tail numbers that jrkmsp gives for DL, I'd guess A330 and A350s.
 
User avatar
OA412
Moderator
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Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2000 6:22 am

Re: US Considering Activating the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Sun Aug 22, 2021 4:40 pm

travaz wrote:
jayunited wrote:
gwrudolph wrote:

Might be challenging for UA. With the PW 777s on the ground, my guess is their remaining widebody fleet has to stretched pretty thin right now.


United is just fine in fact we already have begun flying missions, United re-positioned a 77W 2 days ago over to Germany in anticipation of this. That 77W is already at a US military base in Germany and it is operating flights between Germany and a military base in Qatar XJD and a second 77W will join the efforts later this week. Beginning today United is flying out military, defense department contractors and civilians who have been relocated out of Afghanistan to Qatar out of Qatar to either Germany or to the United States. United will operate several HHN-XJD-HHN missions, an XJD-IAD-RMS mission and and several RMS-IAD-RMS missions in fact looking at the schedule United will operate 7 total round trips RMS-IAD-RMS. United is doing all of this while still continuing to operate our entire scheduled passenger service widebody schedule. This CRAF flying is also in addition to United's already scheduled military flying this doesn't replace what we already had on the books with the US military.

United's widebody fleet isn't as thin or the schedule as tight as you're trying to make it seem we are doing our part to support the troops and US governments civilian evacuations during this time.


It seems that UAL is using 777's for the activation. Anyone want to hazard a guess on what types will be activated on AA and DL? 787 and 350's?


According to jrkmsp’s post, looks like DL had two 333s, 1 359, and possibly one 763 activated.

For AA I’d venture to guess 77Ws, 772s, or maybe 789.
 
jetmatt777
Posts: 4716
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:16 am

Re: US Considering Activating the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Sun Aug 22, 2021 4:41 pm

ClassicLover wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:
What about safety cards? Are temporary cards printed up real quick in the native language to accompany the permanent cards? Are translators assisting the flight attendants?


Why would they need special safety cards? The airlines transport thousands of people each day who may not speak the language of the airline. That is why safety cards have pictures on them. There would be no additional accommodation in this regard.


Because a normal flight would only have a small percentage of people who don’t speak the onboard language, especially on a US carrier. A refugee flight would have a much larger percentage of people not familiar with the language. It was just a question. An informational piece of paper in the native language could be printed in mere minutes on any office modern office printer; hence the question.
 
highflier92660
Posts: 743
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 2:16 am

Re: US Considering Activating the CRAF program for Afghanistan

Sun Aug 22, 2021 4:48 pm

travaz wrote:
I see DL 8822 in route DTW FRA This is Tail # N504Dn an A359

https://www.flightradar24.com/54.52,-62.56/8#



I don't believe Delta Air Lines is using any A350s but I might be wrong. However, a few day ago (before this announcement) I tracked a DL 8820 on Thursday the 19th, a Boeing 767-300ER from Dubai to Frankfurt-Hahn via the scenic, less direct routing westward over Saudi Arabia and Egypt before turning north. Presumably this was to avoid an Iranian overflight. Delta is also using A330-300s on this flight series.

https://www.flightaware.com/live/flight ... z/MDW/EDFH

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